RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (Full Version)

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Destragon -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 5:11:42 PM)

When I try to start with the latest beta, I get some weird username and password popups and then the game just closes itself. This happens before I can even get into the main menu.



Vic -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 5:13:02 PM)

hold on.. will be fixing that right now



Vic -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 5:15:06 PM)

Please try again now. Should be the correct build now.



Destragon -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 5:27:27 PM)

Yeah, it's working now, thanks.
Time to figure out how this new system works. Sounds pretty neat at least.



Destragon -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 6:06:23 PM)

Am I not understanding something here or is there a bug in how these points are displayed in the traffic sign window?
How are these points adding up to 800? Why is it sending 341 points to the north east when there are only 200 requested?

[image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/504754524079259678/728310312863793263/unknown.png[/image]



Falke -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 6:59:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon
Why is it sending 341 points to the north east when there are only 200 requested?



It might be a display bug. I am getting similar unclear amounts.

The amounts do add up if you assume truck sent = Pull points. In your case 141+200+100+4x89 = 797 (3 points not used due to rounding)



GodwinW -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 7:41:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

And i posted the beta with the new Pull Points system added to the existing systems.

This will require some fine-tuning for sure. Looking forward to your feedback.

Best wishes,
Vic


Well.. I am so very VERY VERY happy that you've kept the option to disable in there.

Because this destroys the previous logistics experience.

I played with the new system.

I had to do zilch.

This reduces any problem to: build more truck stations (basically). Like some of us who liked the system already feared and wrote in the threads about it.

What to me is the brilliance of this game is that you do not feel like a robot pulling levers like in so many 4x's: get a pop-up that this is going wrong and a link towards the screen where you can fix it.

No, here you are immersed being a leader because you can anticipate, figure out things, fix things yourself. No hand-holding.

With this new pull system there is hardly any noticeable logistics system compared to how it used to be.
Sure you'll need to build a few roads and upgrade stations and plonk down supply stations/rails and such still, but for me personally the fun is gone.

The satisfaction of anticipating needs, working with the system to ensure optimal solutions and get the joy of seeing it all works out. Or get hasty/forgetful and a few turns later it was your inaction that made a mess, and then fix it.
That's cool. Makes me feel I am needed as leader ;)

I really humbly and also very emphatically request that the options to disable the pull system be moved to the game start options screen and that toggling the 'old school LIS' on removes the option to enable it ingame.

The big problem, as it always is with such things, is that the machine (after bug fixes if necessary) doesn't make mistakes. Cannot forget to check stuff. So it's 100% BETTER to enable this system.
Which makes me very sad. This game celebrates player agency in levels I have never seen before (for example in digging through reports to figure out causes and solutions of, say, the private economy tanking).
But this is a step in the other direction.

Players who want to win will enable it. They would be silly not to. And thus the fun (how I see it) is sacrificed for efficiency, because many always seem to want to win even at the cost of fun. They feel winning is the ultimate fun, I guess. I do not agree.

Luckily this is mostly a PvE single player and with others you can always play house rules with this disabled (if it has the protection from the option being set in the game start menu during game creation baked in in the saves so no one can cheat by turning it on).
Because otherwise the people who want to win will always turn it on.

And if the majority plays with the pull system there will be more support for playing with the pull system.. and so it may go.

It hurts. I really think this game is brilliant. I want to protect it the way it is, with of course fixes. This is nothing positive but a dangerous slippery slope to me personally.
I will always disable it.
But in the back of my mind I'll know I am playing sub-optimally. That there is an easy way out. That I can deal with, but it's still a little bit less enjoyable than if this hadn't even existed.
Maybe give it a cool name like 'hardcore LIS' in the game start options. Helps a tiny bit :p

I'm sorry Vic, I really am, if this is not something you wanted to read. What can I say? I totally get it: for the majority this will be totally great. I just practically always, for some reason, belong to the minority. And I was so happy to get a game that really understand what I find fun to do.

As for direct feedback: It just works. You coded it well. Probably will make you extra money on Steam.
Probably the sensible choice. For real, no joke. You made the right choice for your company.

Thank you so, so, so much for making it optional. Please keep that always in there. And like I said: put it in the game start options and then make it unchangeable ingame, please.

Thanks for reading.



zgrssd -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 7:54:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Well.. I am so very VERY VERY happy that you've kept the option to disable in there.

Because this destroys the previous logistics experience.

I played with the new system.

I had to do zilch.

This reduces any problem to: build more truck stations (basically). Like some of us who liked the system already feared and wrote in the threads about it.


Hyperbole much?

At best it removes Traffic Sign Micro. Wich in itself was a dead end, as you are not supposed to fix logistics issues like that. I do not know how people got the idea "building a maze out of traffic signs" was a way to fix Logistics Issues. But now at least you have no more excuse for that.

You still can not run a 1000 Logistics Consumption Line with a 400 Capacity Truck Line. All you would get is 400 flowing into the right direction - unless there is pull on the other directions as well.



GodwinW -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 7:57:18 PM)

No hyperbole.
And definitely no "Hyperbole much?" [:-]



jwarrenw13 -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 8:15:13 PM)

Of course it is still beta, and Vic is saying it is experimental, but is the goal to have an "easy" and a "hard" system? I noted preference choices in the latest beta, and am wondering if the preferences will be left in.



Destragon -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 8:20:47 PM)

The traffic sign micromanagement to ensure that required logistics actually are sent into the direction where they are needed was pretty much my ONLY complaint about Shadow Empire.
I'm really happy that this is actually getting improved.
In my view, there was absolutely zero player decisionmaking involved there. You were just clicking on buttons to reach a goal that had one correct solution. This was really something that the computer should be doing for you. In the same way that the computer does any other calculations for you, so you don't have to pull out a calculator to do them manually.
To be clear, we are talking about the required logistics for assets, cities and units here. You can still use traffic signs to decide where your leftover logistics points should be spent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
I really humbly and also very emphatically request that the options to disable the pull system be moved to the game start options screen and that toggling the 'old school LIS' on removes the option to enable it ingame.

I don't really understand why you would be requesting that. Just to not be tempted into removing micromanagement? I really think you should give it some more time before coming to conclusions like that. The current implementation of this system seems pretty buggy to me right now anyway.



GodwinW -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 8:35:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

To be clear, we are talking about the required logistics for assets, cities and units here. You can still use traffic signs to decide where your leftover logistics points should be spent.



The leftover? You mean that part which can only ever be useful for strategic movement and raising formations? That's a seriously small use case to bother micromanaging stuff for if the rest is automated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

I really humbly and also very emphatically request that the options to disable the pull system be moved to the game start options screen and that toggling the 'old school LIS' on removes the option to enable it ingame.


I don't really understand why you would be requesting that. Just to not be tempted into removing micromanagement? I really think you should give it some more time before coming to conclusions like that. The current implementation of this system seems pretty buggy to me right now anyway.


Even if it's buggy (I paid zero attention to it to prove/disprove I still needed to pay attention to it*), it works fine enough.
And no, that isn't it.
I actually wrote the reason in the post: PvP. And the small satisfaction of knowing you're playing with 'hardcore' rules. But that's just a bonus. I guess not being tempted to double-check what the system would do is also a bonus indeed. But the reason = PvP.



Falke -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 8:38:36 PM)

A full evaluation of the new system will require playing 100+ turns on a large map.
What i can say so far is:-
a) An unspotted new private construction will not suddenly cripple supply - This will help new players or thoose that have not researched log in depth or who check preview points every single turn
b) The logistics are still not optimised with purely the pull system
c) Build more works with or without the pull system, but is not optimal since it also consumes resources
d) The requirement to set traffic signs is reduced, but remains for optimal useage



willgamer -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 8:53:49 PM)

Well... let the yammering begin yet again! [:'(] [:D]

My bias is the original LIS; having said that-

1. Options are good, especially hard vs. easy, when it comes to selling into both Matrix and Steam.

2. The more I play, the more LIS tuning I do with or without the new option, such as rebuilding roads to optimize routing (like real life).

3. Let's consider suspending [sm=duel.gif] until Vic develops this further and we all log a few more hours of game time.

[sm=00000924.gif]



Destragon -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 9:04:20 PM)

I think I noticed another bug with the pull system. They seem to ignore the traffic signs, which I think is intended, but they don't ignore the "block all" traffic sign, meaning you can at most block 95% of the leftover logistics points from traveling down that road, instead of being able to block all the leftover points from traveling there, but still having the pull points traveling there for the mine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

The leftover? You mean that part which can only ever be useful for strategic movement and raising formations? That's a seriously small use case to bother micromanaging stuff for if the rest is automated.

Yes, that was the only decision that you were making with the old system, too.
Like I said above, in my opinion the act of "making sure that your assets got their X logistics points to actually make them do their job and that your units weren't accidentally starving, because you had half your logistics being sent through a road to nowhere" was clicking buttons for the sake of clicking buttons, and I assume was only in the game that way, because there hadn't been code written yet to automate it.



actrade -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 9:04:27 PM)

Um, where is this option to turn on/off? Can't seem to find it.



Destragon -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 9:05:19 PM)

You need to activate traffic sign mode, then click on a tile. At the bottom there is a global setting to turn the automatic pull points off.



actrade -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 9:10:30 PM)

Ok thanks...assume red means on and clear is off?



jwarrenw13 -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/2/2020 9:54:05 PM)

Again, I'm not playing the beta, but I don't want the log system made too easy. Though I would not mind options to make it easier or harder. So I'm not commenting directly on the effect of the beta, just butting into the argument to say, Vic, don't make it too easy unless you leave "hard" or "advanced" options, or vice versa "easy/simplified," please. Options please. And thanks again, Vic, for this great game.



Nachtjager -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/3/2020 2:36:52 AM)

I've put a stupid amount of hours into this game since it launched, and I've tooled around with the new beta to see the pull system in action.

My first impression is that it's a fantastic QOL addition and very intuitive. It makes it feel like all those characters in the SHQ and OHQ are capable of requesting their own supplies and that zone governors are ensuring zones run smoothly. Much better than traffic signs alone, although I'm still waiting for an option to separate rail and road traffic signs.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/3/2020 3:00:13 AM)

In the end I have a lot of faith in Vic to come up with great changes.



Vic -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/3/2020 7:59:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

Am I not understanding something here or is there a bug in how these points are displayed in the traffic sign window?
How are these points adding up to 800? Why is it sending 341 points to the north east when there are only 200 requested?

[image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/504754524079259678/728310312863793263/unknown.png[/image]


Yeah. minor glitch. well spotted. will be fixed beta-3.



Vic -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/3/2020 8:10:52 AM)

quote:


The big problem, as it always is with such things, is that the machine (after bug fixes if necessary) doesn't make mistakes. Cannot forget to check stuff. So it's 100% BETTER to enable this system.
Which makes me very sad. This game celebrates player agency in levels I have never seen before (for example in digging through reports to figure out causes and solutions of, say, the private economy tanking).
But this is a step in the other direction.


Not sure. It might seem so early in the game, but issues will creep up for sure over time.

For example:
* Road to A to D over B is shortest but for example does not have a supply base III en route, while Road A to D over C is longer but has a supply base III en route. In this case the Pull system will try to pull the points over the shorter road where it will evaporate halfway. Here you'll have to manually intervene.
* You have more Pull Points than you have Logistical Points available, here you'll still have to take action. For example by BLOCKING Pull Points on some Hexes.
* And you still have to make sure that all your Logistical assets connect well with eachother.

The Pull Points are just an extra tool in the toolbox imho.

And you can already disable it. Once you have unflagged the 3 flags (asset pull,unit pull,etc..) once they'll stay unflagged with a next game start.




Vic -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/3/2020 8:15:14 AM)

Big question for me is IF if the Traffic Signs should be seperate or mix with the Pull Points.

The more I think about it the more I think it will be more intuitive and consistent if they'd mix.

This way for example a city with 100 LP with 2 roads (north and south) each having 100 LP pull at their end would normally send 50 north and 50 south. If the systems would mix and you'll put a 40% Reduction Traffic Sign to the north it would then send 28 LP north and 72 LP south.

Best wishes,
Vic



Vhalor -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/3/2020 8:25:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic
* You have more Pull Points than you have Logistical Points available, here you'll still have to take action. For example by BLOCKING Pull Points on some Hexes.


I think this new pull system has a lot of potential to help the game. Now about the above mentioned problem, a three way priority setting (High, Default, Low) for the pull requests could surly help with that.

Wouldn't want some low priority public assets divert vital logistic capacity from critical assets or the front for example. And such a priority setting would ensure that in the case of a shortage, that critical infrastructure is serviced first.

Could even go a step further then and have public assets be low priority by default for example. Even less potential for trouble.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Big question for me is IF if the Traffic Signs should be seperate or mix with the Pull Points.

The more I think about it the more I think it will be more intuitive and consistent if they'd mix.

This way for example a city with 100 LP with 2 roads (north and south) each having 100 LP pull at their end would normally send 50 north and 50 south. If the systems would mix and you'll put a 40% Reduction Traffic Sign to the north it would then send 28 LP north and 72 LP south.

Best wishes,
Vic


The problem with mixing I see is this: I have several critical assets that need 100 LP each, how to ensure now that they get those 100 LP for certain? Traffic signs that mix, could quickly mess that up if I understand the above correctly.

But if I can assign them "high priority", that could work, I suppose.



Malevolence -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/3/2020 10:58:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Big question for me is IF if the Traffic Signs should be seperate or mix with the Pull Points.

The more I think about it the more I think it will be more intuitive and consistent if they'd mix.

This way for example a city with 100 LP with 2 roads (north and south) each having 100 LP pull at their end would normally send 50 north and 50 south. If the systems would mix and you'll put a 40% Reduction Traffic Sign to the north it would then send 28 LP north and 72 LP south.

Best wishes,
Vic


No, I think that's wrong. You're pushing Alice farther down the rabbit hole.

Now you added an automatic pull system, but you're back to how to deal with its prioritization. Except that both the push and pull systems are co-existing in the same space.

The above quote seems to indicate you want to take shortcuts again. The fact that everything is being crammed into the traffic sign view window is an indicator too.

Imagine the issue that already existed... rail points and truck points existed in the same hex, but the same traffic signals in the hex controlled them both. That was a mistake on a smaller scale. It was small enough to be unnoticeable to most players.

Rail points and truck points should have had separate control signals in each hex. That doesn't mean traffic signals were wrong for either, but the setting and behavior for rail points should not have changed the state of truck points. Minor given the design, but still wrong.

So now you're thinking about priority and use cases again and rationalizing mixing the controls again--on systems that are even more dissimilar than the truck/train point flows.

The behavior of logistics should be as predictable and unambiguous as accounting---and for some as boring as accounting too.



Destragon -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/3/2020 12:11:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

The more I think about it the more I think it will be more intuitive and consistent if they'd mix.

I agree with what Vhalor and Malevolence said. There should at least be a way to prevent normal logistics from traveling down a road, but allowing the pull logistics to keep going down that road unobstructed.



Malevolence -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/3/2020 1:37:37 PM)

Preview view. On the left 95% and on the right 100%. No other changes other than to change the traffic sign.

I'll leave it to the reader to pick apart all the issues.

This is why mixing these controls is ultimately not helpful for the player or for the developer--the way we all know there are no bugs is by clearly viewing what we expect to see.

[image]local://upfiles/34589/7DD131743ABE4FCBA2CC68A3F2AC064B.jpg[/image]



Destragon -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/3/2020 2:01:20 PM)

I mentioned that here as a bug:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4847177
Currently pull logistics ignore traffic signs, EXCEPT for the "block all" traffic sign.



GodwinW -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta2 (last update 2nd july!) (7/3/2020 2:31:05 PM)

I think it's fine to mix them in principle (pull UI should be separate though ideally I agree but I do not mind personally) but the whole system has become harder to penetrate in full for new players I think.

Basically where before the learning curve was this:
[image]https://i.imgur.com/qtgbPCq.png[/image]
It is now:
[image]https://i.imgur.com/7xyqmm4.png[/image]

Sure, it was a steeper climb right away but you had to climb it to play, and once you got it it wasn't bad at all.
Now it's so easy. No problem at all. But if you want to pierce being able to solve problems with traffic signs which are already niche and rare, you have to commit to learning about it without much incentive to do so, and not that much pay-off. Many will not do so.
So there are 2 skill levels now.

Vic, one of your examples (the other two are the same in either system (replace more pull points than you get by units starving)) exemplifies this to me:

quote:

* Road to A to D over B is shortest but for example does not have a supply base III en route, while Road A to D over C is longer but has a supply base III en route. In this case the Pull system will try to pull the points over the shorter road where it will evaporate halfway. Here you'll have to manually intervene.


So, I'm a new player. I know I should build truck stops or sealed roads or supply stations to enable the pull system.
But I never would deal with traffic signs because the pull system automates it so I have hardly any awareness of it.

In your case, I will very simply conclude (because investigation also was never needed beyond bottleneck view) that I need to build a supply station on the shorter route. Fixed. Done.
No problem.

How will I even become aware of the second skill level without reading forums or spending loads of time and having an inquisitive mind?

Now, this is no problem at all in itself.

But on the Steam forums people will read about traffic signs and cases like this and fear they will need to master this to have a chance (or because people simply want to now they know it's a thing) and then you might get a lot of posts about why for heaven's sake the pull system isn't made better so that you have this curve:
[image]https://i.imgur.com/7kQrX1t.png[/image]

Because why not? Why have traffic signs in the first place? For those weird edge-cases only (in their mind, w/o understanding the history)? Why not just code it a bit better?
I can very easily see the forums filled with such posts.

That's why it's a slippery slope, having this system.



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