RE: Empire of the Sun

RE: Empire of the Sun (Full Version)

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DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/28/2020 12:44:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bif1961 [&o] Good luck is always welcomed on your side and helps when plans meet reality and have to be adjusted on the fly. Good luck and have fun. Indeed a stroke of good fortune!

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/28/2020 12:45:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred quote: ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101 Southeast of Johnston Island Aboard the I-18, Commander Otani’s eyes widened as he studied the composition of the American task force ahead of him through the periscope. Despite the heavy destroyer presence, he skillfully maneuvered his boat between the Porter and the Flusser and launched 8 torpedoes at the prize in the center. Three torpedoes slammed one after the other into the Lexington, raising large water sprouts over its side as they tore ugly gashes along its side. Shortly after the third torpedo impact, an explosion ripped through the mighty ship as the aviation fuel went up in flames. Otani took the I-18 sub deep and waited out the destroyer counterattack before the tin cans raced back to assist their stricken charge. Are you now going to engage in a maskirovka and retitle this thread to "Revenge of the Lexington"? Alfred [:D][:D][:D] Luckily for me, the Lexington's aircraft all went down with her, so I don't have to worry about them avenging their mothership.

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/28/2020 12:48:05 AM)
December 9, 1941 Submarines I-153 uses its deck gun to sink an AKL west of Pontianak. North of Billiton, I-155 ignited the fuel laden TK Semiramis into a floating torch with a torpedo hit. Also north of Billiton, I-165 sinks TK Strix with two torpedoes. TK Iris went down like a rock east of Muntok as I-154 attacked on the surface during the day and pumped 5 torpedoes into it. Sargo and Sturgeon took some moderate depth charge damage when they went for one of my Luzon invasion convoys. South Pacific I dispatched a few cruisers and destroyers to hunt down some of the surrounding merchant shipping but despite many messages received of encounters with enemy task forces none of them resulted in battles. The KB’s aircraft however did find a number of ships during the day to put under. Further north, the Kaga’s aircraft flew this turn and inflicted some more pain on the damaged merchant shipping in Brisbane. It was Akagi’s turn near Sydney to not launch aircraft however – likely due to weather. Celebes Sea I split up the heavy cruiser task force into three components to cover more sea here as my opponent attempted to rush his vessels from the Philippines to safety. One of these, the cruiser Nachi and two escorting destroyers, ran into the dreaded Boise during the night. Despite the heavy expenditure of ammunition and torpedoes, Nachi and Boise scored only a few glancing hits on each other before the battle ended. Meanwhile, the other two sub-divisions from the original cruiser task force continued hunting down enemy shipping. TK British Sailor, AS Otus, AP Rochambeau, and AVP Heron were sunk. Unfortunately, ammunition was starting to run low now. Malaya 16 Zeros swept over Singapore encountering 41 Buffalo fighters. 27 Oscar Ib fighters then went over the city and mauled the surviving 16 Buffalos that were still in the air to meet them. At the end of the day, we lost 5 Zeros and 2 Oscars for about 20 Buffalos. Sally bombers continued their effort to pin down the British and Indian troops at Alor Star while Japanese mechanized and motorized forces raced across the road south of Patani in an effort to cut them off. Allied bombers come in again to hit the invasion shipping in the Gulf of Siam and this time encounter no fighter opposition. Two AKs are hit and sunk. Silver lining is both were empty. Philippines One of my surface action groups encountered the American PT boat squadron but no hits were inflicted or sustained. 41 Betty bombers pounded Manila’s airfield but encountered no resistance given my opponent’s fighters were still concentrated over Clark. 20 Betty bombers follow this attack and sink the majority of the remaining damaged subs still in port. 10 Catalinas launch an attack on invasion shipping in northern Luzon and encounter no resistance. AK Keisho Maru, thankfully having already unloaded its troops, takes two torpedo hits and sinks. The Cats arrive again in the afternoon however and this time they sink an AK that was still unloading troops. 7 squads and 9 vehicles are lost with the ship. The B-17Ds shift their attention to Takao. 7 of them come over and encounter more Nate opposition. The B-17Ds are harassed with damaging attacks all the way through to their target but they still manage to knock out a Nell bomber on the ground. Japanese forces come ashore at Laoag in Luzon and land at Davao in Mindanao. Central Pacific Japanese troops land and take Tarawa. China Japanese troops are racing towards Ichang in an effort to reinforce it before the Chinese attack. Chinese bombers attack in an attempt to delay the arrival of the reinforcements. The Chinese 20th corps is caught by two Japanese divisions and a mixed brigade west of Wuchang and sent reeling back. Hong Kong More air strikes hit the defenders. Japanese troops arrive in the hex and bombard. ----- A day for the silent service – with of course the I-18’s attack being the centerpiece.

Alfred -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/28/2020 12:58:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101 [:D][:D][:D] Luckily for me, the Lexington's aircraft all went down with her, so I don't have to worry about them avenging their mothership. The units can be bought back. In fact doing so should be a top priority for your opponent as the VF squadron can be utilised for pilot training. There is a great shortfall of USN fighter pilot training opportunities well into 1942. Alfred

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/28/2020 11:09:21 AM)
December 10, 1941 Submarines Near Sinkawang, I-121 finds and sinks AVP Poolster with a torpedo. S/SW Pacific West of Tasmania, heavy cruiser Chikuma finds ten transports and cargo ships and sinks or cripples eight of them. Airstrikes from the KB once again sink a bunch of transports – the KB will move back towards the Sydney area. Japanese Val and Kate bombers from Akagi and Kaga hit the damaged shipping at the ports of Sydney and Brisbane respectively. Japanese troops land at Kavieng Central Pacific Japanese troops land and take Nauru Island. DD Wakaba hunts down and sinks AM Penguin. Philippine Sea One of my cruiser task forces guarding the eastern escape route from the Philippines finds and sinks a group of five AKLs. It then finds two AKs and sinks those as well. Sulu Sea Having largely exhausted their ammunition, my cruiser task forces in the area were declining combat opportunities. One of them found the AP President Madison and another found the TK Gertrude Kellogg and an AK in the night but did not engage. The last cruiser sub-division found and did sink an ALK as it was retiring to Babeldaob to rearm. A fresh Japanese force composed of a light cruiser and a destroyer arrives in the area however and promptly sinks four Allied AKLs. Ceram Sea Japanese forces land at Sorong. South China Sea A Japanese destroyer task force led by the light cruiser Kuma finds 6 merchant ships from Hong Kong and ravages them. Philippines I attempted a night bombing of Manila port resulting in the damaged submarine Saury taking another hit and sinking. Seeking to disrupt my ongoing landings at Davao, my opponent sent in the three British destroyers that begin the war in Hong Kong. They catch my landing force by surprise during the night and inflict damage on a patrol boat and a cruiser minelayer but the action ends early before any of my ships are mortally wounded. A composite force of Japanese cruisers and destroyers once again tangles with the PT squadron off the coast of Luzon with three PT boat destroyed as a result. Japanese troops come ashore at Dadjangas. Laoag in Luzon and Davao in Mindanao are taken. Borneo Japanese troops land at Miri and Brunei. China Tojo fighters from the experimental squadron intercept Chinese bombers over Ichang, shooting four of them down. The Chinese attack at Ichang but are thwarted with considerable losses with the arrival of Japanese reinforcments. Hong Kong IJN bombers from Formosa pound the Hong Kong defenders to prep the way for the coming assault on the city. --------- As usual, these early turns are very hectic. I am keeping well to my plan of sinking as much sealift as possible.

Lowpe -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/28/2020 11:32:02 AM)
Task Force Z destroyed. [sm=00000436.gif] I-boat nails a Fleet Carrier. Do you happen to know what the moon percentage was if it happened during the night? Allies typically expose their carriers too early when they cannot protect themselves from I-boats sufficiently. Happy hunting. One tactic I like to pursue early on is the Iboat rush. Surround those Pacific Islands you know that will be re-supplied (ports 2 or smaller), and have 4-5 Iboats rush in a patrol the base from 3 hexes distance with a glen doing night search. You maximize your DL...fireworks almost always follow (check those Iboat Captains). Another is to make a task force of 2 subs and assign a Commander to give you a chance at good leadership rolls. Well done. Not sure about the Oz gambit with the KB. Good search for the Allies and more 4E and empty repair yards...but will they use them properly? Time will tell, and it is good to see differing tactics.[;)]

CV10 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/28/2020 12:25:02 PM)
Good luck Desertwolf! I play as the Allies and don't have much to offer in the way of advice, but I'll be following your AAR closely.

RangerJoe -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/28/2020 1:56:56 PM)
Well, if there are lots of small task forces with no CAP, do you break your carrier air units into thirds to attack as many as is possible? Kates with bombs at 1000 feet save the torpedoes and work very well against lightly armored or unarmored targets. Did you also magic move and/or are moving to capture a base to position AKEs, ADs, and AOs? This could be useful for your carriers. Don't forget night search.

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 3:06:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Well, if there are lots of small task forces with no CAP, do you break your carrier air units into thirds to attack as many as is possible? Kates with bombs at 1000 feet save the torpedoes and work very well against lightly armored or unarmored targets. Did you also magic move and/or are moving to capture a base to position AKEs, ADs, and AOs? This could be useful for your carriers. Don't forget night search. I gradually split up my KB in three to go after the shipping in different areas around the coastline of southeastern Australia. I used up the torpedoes of 4 of the carriers and kept 2 on bombs only as a reserve. I did use the magic move of the first turn to get this far south with the KB as well as AOs but not with the other support ship types. I certainly have the intention to eventually capture bases in New Guinea, the Solomons, etc. though.

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 3:07:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CV10 Good luck Desertwolf! I play as the Allies and don't have much to offer in the way of advice, but I'll be following your AAR closely. Thank you CV10! I am hoping it will be an interesting one, even if it ends up being a campaign where I get badly defeated.

RangerJoe -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 3:14:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101 quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Well, if there are lots of small task forces with no CAP, do you break your carrier air units into thirds to attack as many as is possible? Kates with bombs at 1000 feet save the torpedoes and work very well against lightly armored or unarmored targets. Did you also magic move and/or are moving to capture a base to position AKEs, ADs, and AOs? This could be useful for your carriers. Don't forget night search. I gradually split up my KB in three to go after the shipping in different areas around the coastline of southeastern Australia. I used up the torpedoes of 4 of the carriers and kept 2 on bombs only as a reserve. I did use the magic move of the first turn to get this far south with the KB as well as AOs but not with the other support ship types. I certainly have the intention to eventually capture bases in New Guinea, the Solomons, etc. though. I was not asking about the carriers, although that is also important, but the Kates and the Vals.

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 3:18:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lowpe Task Force Z destroyed. [sm=00000436.gif] I-boat nails a Fleet Carrier. Do you happen to know what the moon percentage was if it happened during the night? Allies typically expose their carriers too early when they cannot protect themselves from I-boats sufficiently. Happy hunting. One tactic I like to pursue early on is the Iboat rush. Surround those Pacific Islands you know that will be re-supplied (ports 2 or smaller), and have 4-5 Iboats rush in a patrol the base from 3 hexes distance with a glen doing night search. You maximize your DL...fireworks almost always follow (check those Iboat Captains). Another is to make a task force of 2 subs and assign a Commander to give you a chance at good leadership rolls. Well done. Not sure about the Oz gambit with the KB. Good search for the Allies and more 4E and empty repair yards...but will they use them properly? Time will tell, and it is good to see differing tactics.[;)] Thanks! The moonlight when the I-18 struck it's deadly blow was 67%, and yes it did happen during the night. I am doing something similar with the I-boats as I attempt to hit his shipping, but I did not consider night search - any reason why night search for the Glenn over day search?

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 3:20:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101 quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Well, if there are lots of small task forces with no CAP, do you break your carrier air units into thirds to attack as many as is possible? Kates with bombs at 1000 feet save the torpedoes and work very well against lightly armored or unarmored targets. Did you also magic move and/or are moving to capture a base to position AKEs, ADs, and AOs? This could be useful for your carriers. Don't forget night search. I gradually split up my KB in three to go after the shipping in different areas around the coastline of southeastern Australia. I used up the torpedoes of 4 of the carriers and kept 2 on bombs only as a reserve. I did use the magic move of the first turn to get this far south with the KB as well as AOs but not with the other support ship types. I certainly have the intention to eventually capture bases in New Guinea, the Solomons, etc. though. I was not asking about the carriers, although that is also important, but the Kates and the Vals. Ah I see. Initially no but when the Kates expended their torpedoes I put them at a lower altitude so that they have a better chance of hitting their targets. The Vals I kept up at 10,000+ to allow them to dive bomb.

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 3:52:15 AM)
December 11, 1941 Submarines I-162 strikes and sinks TK Pinna close to Palembang. I-162 then strikes again a short while later, sinking TK Spirilla in the same area. I-162 was not done yet though – it struck a third time during the night, this time putting a torpedo into TK British Judge. I have yet to receive confirmation of TK British Judge’s sinking but I am hopeful as it was carrying fuel and also suffered a fuel cargo explosion. South of Takao, Salmon hits AV Sanuki Maru with a torpedo but thankfully the torpedo fails to explode. S/SW Pacific I leave some surface warships to cover the exits from Brisbane and reunite the entire KB east of Sydney. The KB then launches a particularly devastating carrier strike on the shipping at Sydney harbor where dozens of additional ships are sunk as a result. Tomorrow I hopefully finish the rest of them off. Japanese troops land at Hollandia, Aitape, and Manus. The I/66th Naval Guard Unit attempts to seize Kavieng but is repulsed by the well-trained Australian company there. I underestimated the Allied defense here. Philippine Sea DD Hatsushima and DD Wakaba, guarding the eastern exit from the Philippines, find and sink TK Manatawny. Celebes Sea TK Gertrude Kellogg, having evaded the wrath of my cruiser task forces once they ran out of ammo, was caught and sunk by the newly arrived destroyer Natsushio. Philippines Japanese troops take Dadjangas. Malaya 30 Oscar Ib fighters sweep over Singapore encountering 25 Buffalos. About 10 Buffalos are eliminated for no Oscar losses. Borneo Japanese troops seize Miri and Brunei. The first significant oil zone is mine. Ceram Sea Japanese troops capture Sorong. Hong Kong More concentrated airstrikes on the Hong Kong defenses pave the way for a successful Japanese assault. A 2 to 1 odds result knocks down fortification levels to 2. ----- Much of the success achieved by my submarines south of Singapore can be attributed to the lack of available Allied escorts. All of the British destroyers in port at Singapore at the start of the war were heavily damaged by the first turn bombing there, and the remaining are either busy escorting warships or have already been damaged in surface engagements.

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 3:56:27 AM)
Industry Investment I would like to seek some thoughts and advice on whether to increase heavy industry in the home islands. I don't plan to spend supplies on LI, but assuming I am successful in seizing all the oil fields in the SRA, should I be investing in HI to make use of it? I am also planning to increase a bit of HI in the SRA itself but not sure by how much. What works best for you guys?

Alamander -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 4:34:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101 Industry Investment I would like to seek some thoughts and advice on whether to increase heavy industry in the home islands. I don't plan to spend supplies on LI, but assuming I am successful in seizing all the oil fields in the SRA, should I be investing in HI to make use of it? I am also planning to increase a bit of HI in the SRA itself but not sure by how much. What works best for you guys? Remember that HI uses fuel, so any expansion depends upon how much you intend to use your fleet. Do you intend to go far beyond the historical conquest area into SoPac, Ceylon, or further? If so, you may not want to do much expansion, if any. If you intend to capture some extra fuel, however, such as at Ledo, then a small expansion may be in order even if you go beyond the historical expansion. Your best bet is probably to expand in Manchuko and central or northern China: areas that will be hard to strategically bomb until very late. A little expansion at Singapore can be helpful as well, since it is likely not to be taken until after you have recouped more than the supply cost of expansion, and it reduces the amount of fuel transport necessary. I generally don't expand on Java. Others may, but I tend to use all the fuel from Java, Balikpapan, and Tarakan for the Pacific fleet, so I rarely have excess in Java. I tend to run the Indian fleet on Bangkok fuel as long as possible, and everything from Sumatra goes to the home islands, via Singapore, to fuel the heavy industry. For this reason, a little expansion at Singapore makes sense for me. Your mileage may vary depending upon how you organize your economy. If you use Manila as a fuel depot, a small expansion there is not completely out of the question, if you move on the Phillipines early, rather than bypassing it. It is an inevitable target of almost every Allied advance, but if you can't hold it long enough to make it profitable, supply issues will be the least of your concerns.

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 4:51:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alamander quote: ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101 Industry Investment I would like to seek some thoughts and advice on whether to increase heavy industry in the home islands. I don't plan to spend supplies on LI, but assuming I am successful in seizing all the oil fields in the SRA, should I be investing in HI to make use of it? I am also planning to increase a bit of HI in the SRA itself but not sure by how much. What works best for you guys? Remember that HI uses fuel, so any expansion depends upon how much you intend to use your fleet. Do you intend to go far beyond the historical conquest area into SoPac, Ceylon, or further? If so, you may not want to do much expansion, if any. If you intend to capture some extra fuel, however, such as at Ledo, then a small expansion may be in order even if you go beyond the historical expansion. Your best bet is probably to expand in Manchuko and central or northern China: areas that will be hard to strategically bomb until very late. A little expansion at Singapore can be helpful as well, since it is likely not to be taken until after you have recouped more than the supply cost of expansion, and it reduces the amount of fuel transport necessary. I generally don't expand on Java. Others may, but I tend to use all the fuel from Java, Balikpapan, and Tarakan for the Pacific fleet, so I rarely have excess in Java. I tend to run the Indian fleet on Bangkok fuel as long as possible, and everything from Sumatra goes to the home islands, via Singapore, to fuel the heavy industry. For this reason, a little expansion at Singapore makes sense for me. Your mileage may vary depending upon how you organize your economy. If you use Manila as a fuel depot, a small expansion there is not completely out of the question, if you move on the Phillipines early, rather than bypassing it. It is an inevitable target of almost every Allied advance, but if you can't hold it long enough to make it profitable, supply issues will be the least of your concerns. Very helpful, thank you.

Alfred -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 6:02:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101 Industry Investment I would like to seek some thoughts and advice on whether to increase heavy industry in the home islands. I don't plan to spend supplies on LI, but assuming I am successful in seizing all the oil fields in the SRA, should I be investing in HI to make use of it? I am also planning to increase a bit of HI in the SRA itself but not sure by how much. What works best for you guys? I can guarantee you that all the advice received will be to not invest where the break even will not eventuate. Classic argument will be a 1000 day break even on LI investment. Except for my advice which no one ever seems to follow. The ROI is much more complex than the simplistic approach undertaken by the usual suspects. Firstly, the first thing to notice is that when in doubt, adopting real world considerations will usually not be disadvantageous in AE. Secondly, when it comes to real world military considerations, adopting a McNamara business spread sheet approach is often the wrong approach. Vietnam enemy body counts were always very much in favour of the Americans. The 1968 Tet Offensive destroyed the Vietcong presence in the South. And yet who ultimately won that conflict. Or how about the huge Chinese death toll in Korea, and yet that poor ROI resulted in pushing back the UN forces from the Yalu and ultimately a satisfactory armistice for the communists. Or consider the 3rd Reich's investment in brown coal to oil. No economist ever said that generated a good ROI ... and yet well before the loss of the Romanian oilfields, the Luftwaffe and Panzers could not have operated without such an unsatisfactory investment. Thirdly, in AE the most common reason why the Japanese economy implodes in the late war is not due to Allied action but to Japanese decisions. It is extremely rare to find that before 31 August 1945 - the key cut off date for a Decisive Allied Victory - all of the industrial production facilities of the SRA have been recaptured by the Allies. The usual situation is that the Allies are in position to (a) directly target industry in the Home Islands, and (b) choke the sea borne convoy paths from the still Japanese held SRA industrial production facilities back to the Home Islands. The net result is that continued processed goods production in the SRA would be possible if only Japan had invested there beforehand, with little regard to the spread sheet approach. Let's look at some of the important considerations which are never factored into the spread sheet by the usual suspects. 1. Supply is a wasting processed good. It will always be consumed by any LCUs located at the base, even if they do absolutely nothing. 2. Supply depots can be easily, and quickly destroyed by Allied air and sea bombardments. However such Allied activity cannot ever destroy any recently produced local supply before it gets distributed to the military asserts located in situ. 3. Even if the magical highway is set up, considerable supply and fuel (not to mention the cost in sunk ship VPs) is expended in shipping raw materials back to the Home Islands from the SRA. There are huge savings to be had if the raw materials can be consumed locally. These saving are never, I repeat never, inputted into the spread sheets. 4. Reducing the need to provide substantial rear area ASW protection for the raw material convoys releases substantial Japanese military assets to be deployed on the frontlines. Not to overlook all the supply and fuel expenditure involved without necessarily making any meaningful contact with Allied forces in these rear areas. Bonus points if these Japanese units can be fed by local production. 5. In 1944 the Mariana airfields allow for targeting the industrial facilities on the Home Islands. They are not so well situated for striking at the captured SRA industrial facilities. Even less well situated are any captured bases in the Kuriles, they are pretty much limited to targetting Sakhlin and Hokkaido. Of course if no investment in the SRA had been made by Japan, these geographical limitations don't count, the Allied player can just operate on auto with strategic bombing of the Home Islands involving his entire strategic force. Not so easy when the strategic forces can't be concentrated against a single geographic area. Especially when the Allies earn no strategic VPs for bombing the SRA. 6. It is much harder to damage Light Industry than it is to damage Heavy Industry. Plus there are many more locations in the SRA where Light Industry is found rather than Heavy Industry. Combining dispersal and hardness (plus the lack of any strategic VP generation) makes it quite an involved process for the Allies to knock out SRA in situ supply generation. There is a lot more to conducting military operations than the bean counters with their spread sheets realise. That is the case out in the real world, and it also applies to AE. Alfred

RangerJoe -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 10:29:31 AM)
If you drop the Kates to 1000 feet, they work pretty well with bombs against soft targets. For LI, consider building up Fusan to pull more resources there that can easily be shipped to Japan.

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 12:15:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred quote: ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101 Industry Investment I would like to seek some thoughts and advice on whether to increase heavy industry in the home islands. I don't plan to spend supplies on LI, but assuming I am successful in seizing all the oil fields in the SRA, should I be investing in HI to make use of it? I am also planning to increase a bit of HI in the SRA itself but not sure by how much. What works best for you guys? I can guarantee you that all the advice received will be to not invest where the break even will not eventuate. Classic argument will be a 1000 day break even on LI investment. Except for my advice which no one ever seems to follow. The ROI is much more complex than the simplistic approach undertaken by the usual suspects. Firstly, the first thing to notice is that when in doubt, adopting real world considerations will usually not be disadvantageous in AE. Secondly, when it comes to real world military considerations, adopting a McNamara business spread sheet approach is often the wrong approach. Vietnam enemy body counts were always very much in favour of the Americans. The 1968 Tet Offensive destroyed the Vietcong presence in the South. And yet who ultimately won that conflict. Or how about the huge Chinese death toll in Korea, and yet that poor ROI resulted in pushing back the UN forces from the Yalu and ultimately a satisfactory armistice for the communists. Or consider the 3rd Reich's investment in brown coal to oil. No economist ever said that generated a good ROI ... and yet well before the loss of the Romanian oilfields, the Luftwaffe and Panzers could not have operated without such an unsatisfactory investment. Thirdly, in AE the most common reason why the Japanese economy implodes in the late war is not due to Allied action but to Japanese decisions. It is extremely rare to find that before 31 August 1945 - the key cut off date for a Decisive Allied Victory - all of the industrial production facilities of the SRA have been recaptured by the Allies. The usual situation is that the Allies are in position to (a) directly target industry in the Home Islands, and (b) choke the sea borne convoy paths from the still Japanese held SRA industrial production facilities back to the Home Islands. The net result is that continued processed goods production in the SRA would be possible if only Japan had invested there beforehand, with little regard to the spread sheet approach. Let's look at some of the important considerations which are never factored into the spread sheet by the usual suspects. 1. Supply is a wasting processed good. It will always be consumed by any LCUs located at the base, even if they do absolutely nothing. 2. Supply depots can be easily, and quickly destroyed by Allied air and sea bombardments. However such Allied activity cannot ever destroy any recently produced local supply before it gets distributed to the military asserts located in situ. 3. Even if the magical highway is set up, considerable supply and fuel (not to mention the cost in sunk ship VPs) is expended in shipping raw materials back to the Home Islands from the SRA. There are huge savings to be had if the raw materials can be consumed locally. These saving are never, I repeat never, inputted into the spread sheets. 4. Reducing the need to provide substantial rear area ASW protection for the raw material convoys releases substantial Japanese military assets to be deployed on the frontlines. Not to overlook all the supply and fuel expenditure involved without necessarily making any meaningful contact with Allied forces in these rear areas. Bonus points if these Japanese units can be fed by local production. 5. In 1944 the Mariana airfields allow for targeting the industrial facilities on the Home Islands. They are not so well situated for striking at the captured SRA industrial facilities. Even less well situated are any captured bases in the Kuriles, they are pretty much limited to targetting Sakhlin and Hokkaido. Of course if no investment in the SRA had been made by Japan, these geographical limitations don't count, the Allied player can just operate on auto with strategic bombing of the Home Islands involving his entire strategic force. Not so easy when the strategic forces can't be concentrated against a single geographic area. Especially when the Allies earn no strategic VPs for bombing the SRA. 6. It is much harder to damage Light Industry than it is to damage Heavy Industry. Plus there are many more locations in the SRA where Light Industry is found rather than Heavy Industry. Combining dispersal and hardness (plus the lack of any strategic VP generation) makes it quite an involved process for the Allies to knock out SRA in situ supply generation. There is a lot more to conducting military operations than the bean counters with their spread sheets realise. That is the case out in the real world, and it also applies to AE. Alfred Some persuasive arguments not to overlook LI investment Alfred. I will consider this some more, especially in areas where I don't plan to add HI and where I will need supplies in the future.

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 12:16:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe If you drop the Kates to 1000 feet, they work pretty well with bombs against soft targets. For LI, consider building up Fusan to pull more resources there that can easily be shipped to Japan. Hmmm, the Fusan suggestion is an interesting tactic I didn't consider.

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 1:36:09 PM)
December 12, 1941 Submarines Nothing of note. S/SW Pacific Another massed KB raid annihilates remaining Allied shipping in Sydney. Amongst the victims to be finished off in this raid are three tankers, the light cruiser Perth, and the massive Queen Elizabeth liner. The KB starts moving to the north. Manus and Aitape are seized. Philippine Sea Another three AKLs are sunk by a couple of Japanese destroyers. AKE Taiyo arrived in the area to shore up the coverage and its aircraft promptly sink PG Tulsa and AO Pecos and damages AO Trinity. Malaya Zeros sweep over Singapore but encounter no resistance. Over the last few turns, mobile regiments cut off the Allied forces at Alor Star and arrived in Georgetown. Georgetown is taken this turn. Borneo Swordfish aircraft from Singapore attack our cruisers guarding the Sinkawang landing force but score no hits. Japanese troops land at Sinkawang and Beufort. Burma Victoria Point is taken. Hong Kong Japanese troops reduce the Hong Kong defenses once more – one more attack and the town will be mine.

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 1:38:18 PM)
December 13, 1941 Submarines I-158 sinks AP Siberg off the coast of eastern Java. North of Luzon, S-36 hits AP Kokuryu Maru with a torpedo. The transport makes it back to Formosa where it begins repairs. S/SW Pacific While pulling back to the north, the KB sends a raid to hit the Allied shipping at Newcastle and pulverizes the 14 cargo and transport vessels there. Wirraway light bombers sortied from Sydney to attack one of my Battleships but missed. Japanese troops take the Shortlands and Hollandia. Philippine Sea Kate bombers from the Taiyo find AO Trinity and finish her with a rain of bombs. Philippines Betty bombers hit Clark airfield at night, destroying a couple of P-40E fighters on the ground. During the day, 45 Zero fighters swept over Clark where they encountered 76 American fighters. Although outnumbered, the Zeros roughly handled the opposition. A second wave of 34 Zeros then came in and mopped up the survivors. 35 American fighters are shot down for the loss of 6 Zeros. Japanese troops take Vigan on Luzon. Borneo Japanese troops seize Singkawang and Beaufort. Further east, Japanese troops come ashore at Jesselton. China My recon noted an enemy fighter presence at Changsha. In response, I sent my experimental Tojo squadron to sweep over the city and followed that with a Sally bomber raid. No Flying Tigers rose up to meet the sweep or the raid, and a few H81-A3 fighters and some Chinese bombers were destroyed on the ground. The 13th Divison and the 14th Mixed Independent Brigade smash the 30th Chinese Corps that tried to cut the supply line to Ichang by moving into the hex northwest of Hankow. Hong Kong Japanese troops storm Hong Kong once more and take it. The 38th Division, although unrestricted, will stay in China and starts marching towards Wuchow. ----- So far so good

DanielAClark -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 1:56:07 PM)
So...the industry choice boils down to centralized vs distributed supply production and coordinating resource flows. Centralized is simpler to conceptually control, but harder on sealift or transport capacity, which is limited...? Distributed offers advantages long term but requires more planning work to be successful?

Lowpe -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 2:21:41 PM)
Some general thoughts: Few ports are worth building, but Fusan should be maxed. Other ports to look at building a level or more are: Ominato, Wakkanai, Babo. You might want to look at building some level 7 ports to help with rearming the super battleships. Cam Ranh Bay, Shikuka come to mind. Yes, you can use huge ake, but during late game they notoriously get bombed in port or sunk by subs. Conversions: The CLAA conversion is worth doing I think. I keep the CS, and use Rufes and Rex all war on them. I like converting 2 battleships into CS BB, fully upgraded they have the best AA platform in Japan's fleet, and I like using the Rex. CM to E, yes. The Mogami conversion is situational, but generally no. Repairs: I generally only ever repair oil, if I can keep the oil flowing for 3 months or more. Everything else pretty much no. But this is situational...shipyards maybe. Refineries maybe depending upon how the game flows. Runways, Forts: Easy to overbuild here. In general I like runways to 8 or 9 that are on rails and not on the coast, especially if they can overlook a potential invasion base. Big building on Honshu at all likely strategically bombed bases to max out balloons. Things to be aware of: 1. Army fighter expansion in first quarter 1944. Massive. 2. Navy fighter squadron withdraw in 1944. 3. Counter Lightnings in 1942 4. Counter Jugs in 1944 (at least 3000 Franks needed) 5. B29s come very early 1944. Japan gets massive upgrades and AA reinforcements starting 2nd Quarter 1944. 6. Honshu could be bombed sometime in early 1944. Sometimes earlier. 7. Hellcats and Corsairs really change CV fights. You basically need A6M8 or Sam. Preferably Sam. I don't like to fight A6M5 whatever versus Hellcats and Corsairs unless they are heavily outnumbered. 8. Generally speaking Japan's bombers get used less and less as bombers. Allied flak gets better and better, and can stop you cold. But if there is minimal AA present and you control the air space you can stop him...especially true for rampaging armor units. 9. Countering Fletcher task forces...very difficult. 10. Radar upgrades super important. The Allies seem really good at ship bombardments, tanks, night bombing, Jug sweeps, Fletcher SAGs (perhaps led by a CL), daytime naval combat, bombing ports. Figuring out how to counter these are some of the keys to doing well as Japan.

BBfanboy -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 5:13:25 PM)
IIRC, the Yamatos cannot be reloaded by a level 7 port unless there is enough Naval Support there as well. Even the Iowas require a Level 8 port to rearm, with an ammo load cost of 2700 or so vs 3200 or so for the Yamatos.

Lowpe -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 5:41:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy IIRC, the Yamatos cannot be reloaded by a level 7 port unless there is enough Naval Support there as well. Even the Iowas require a Level 8 port to rearm, with an ammo load cost of 2700 or so vs 3200 or so for the Yamatos. Only 190, whereas a level 6 port needs over 1000.

Alamander -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 7:33:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DanielAClark So...the industry choice boils down to centralized vs distributed supply production and coordinating resource flows. Centralized is simpler to conceptually control, but harder on sealift or transport capacity, which is limited...? Distributed offers advantages long term but requires more planning work to be successful? The Japanese economy is pretty much what it is. The most that you want to do is some tinkering around the edges in an effort to maximize efficiency, supply, fuel, etc... . Quite often, what is being discussed is trading supply for fuel and vice versa. For example, expanding the port at Fusan beyond level 5, rather than using other ports in Korea, is basically trading supply for fuel. Expanding a little light industry in bases closer to the front is likewise trading supply (since these investments are unlikely to be net supply positive) for fuel. Of course, if you expand a little heavy industry, thereby converting the excess fuel into supply, you can come out a little ahead in every way: an illustration of how one can maximize the economy with a little tinkering. You do not want to do too much expansion, however. Remember... tinkering... not some Soviet 5-year plan of mass industrialization. There are other considerations. If you intend to make a pitched defense of Java, for example, and expect the allies to move in that direction, then expanding some light industry at Batavia makes sense so that Java is more supply independent. If the allies do not move on Java, then you will end up net supply positive with production closer to the action. Thus, all of your decisions about the economy must take into consideration an overall strategic military plan. It is all interconnected, but you want to be careful that you do not trade too much supply for fuel or too much fuel for supply, whatever decision or plan you make.

RangerJoe -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/29/2020 10:55:08 PM)
If you think that you are going to need more supplies in China, then expanding industry in northern China and Manchuria will provide you the supplies. No shipping needed other than the initial cost. Those supply sources should be safe until the Soviets are activated, so don't send Stalin any rotten sushi early. The expansions there will also not give the enemy VPs for their destruction.

DesertWolf101 -> RE: Empire of the Sun (6/30/2020 2:07:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe If you think that you are going to need more supplies in China, then expanding industry in northern China and Manchuria will provide you the supplies. No shipping needed other than the initial cost. Those supply sources should be safe until the Soviets are activated, so don't send Stalin any rotten sushi early. The expansions there will also not give the enemy VPs for their destruction. Certainly makes sense if you expect heavy supply usage in China. I don't know if that will be the case for me yet but a lot of my plans right now are about attempting to minimize the need to send additional supply to China by seizing the key production bases from the Chinese early on. We will see if that works or if I have to adjust my approach.

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