RE: The question to ask about The Italians

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Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 2:03:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 In removing these barges from the waterways of Europe, they had an economic impact. The barges were used in this fashion HISTORICALLY!! How could that cause any more impact than occurred historically?? quote: Now, suffering that economic hit because you need the barges to launch an invasion is one thing. Doing that for a deception operation (that based on what you've said yesterday actually makes no sense anyway) is the height of stupidity. After all, they would be leaving Britain untouched while harming their own economy and war making capacity. Not if it deceives the British about the invasion threat. That facilitates the Spanish operation. quote: Nice double whammy there - and even worse, you are keeping those in Northern France for two years and so doubling the effect on the economy. Huh? No. Once Spain is out of the way, the deception is unnecessary.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 2:06:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 What the hell has the Lancaster bomber - or any 4-engined bomber - got to do with the RAF in 1940???? It has nothing to do with the RAF in 1940. Where did I say it did? The British would not be the ones carrying out a strategic bombing campaign. The Germans would be. The Germans are the ones that need a strategic bomber and a long-range escort. They don't have either.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 2:18:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 NO!!!!!!!!! I am saying that Goering believed he had what was needed in July 1940 to defeat the RAF - and what Goering believed is what is important. You did this with the Japan scenario, constantly asking what I would do or what I think. Who cares what I would do or what I think, it is irrelevant. With the weaponry at his disposal, Goering believed he could destroy the RAF in weeks (in fact he told Hitler he just needed 4 days of clear weather!!. The fact that we know otherwise 80 years later is simply not of any relevance to what the German High Command were thinking or thought they knew in the summer of 1940. The Me-110 - the Zerstorer - was his favourite aircraft it was something of a shock when the truth about its performance became evident. Again, with the adoption of a Med strategy, the rationale for a BoB, especially with no cross-channel invasion, is no longer there. A significant fraction of the Luftwaffe is needed for Spain. The Med is going to be a major theater and therefore a better place to engage the RAF, because of Axis interior lines. The Germans don't have the air force for a strategic bombing campaign. That the Germans were willing to risk it when it was essential for the cross-channel invasion does not mean that it would make sense to them without that invasion.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 2:21:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 What was vile or personal about that? The way you have approached this 'staff study' is nothing more than an Dream Axis Fanoboi Scenario. That is not rude - it is certainly not vile. Yes it is. You're not talking about the issue. You're talking about me. Stick to the facts and do not resort to personal comments.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 2:26:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Except it doesn't. Instead of simply repeating the same one-liners why not spend some time writing out - as I've tried to do - a timeline of events as you see it? What conversations are being had when and by who, how is all this developing amongst the competing personalities, the Spanish, the French, the Italians? Your thinking doesn't seem to allow for the fact that no one in 1940 knew what was going to happen - they don't have the knowledge we do. As a result events are dynamic, they are fluid. For example we know what Franco will say to a German request to enter the war. But Hitler doesn't. But because you know, you simply ignore what, logically would have happened in the summer to get to a point where Hitler declares war on Spain (with all that means). You think you can just go from victory in France to attacking Spain. Sorry, life doesn't work like that and its that sort of thing that makes me call this a Dream Axis Fanboi Scenario. Surely, you must understand what invading Spain means for Germany from every possible viewpoint - military, economic, political? This is huge. Yet you treat it as nothing. You are actually putting forward the case (with your proposed timetable) that Hitler goes straight from defeat of France to attacking Spain. No preliminaries, no discussions, nothing. You don't want me to conclude that this is just a Dream Axis Fanboi Scenario? Right, okay, put some effort into it. Give an outline timetable and why you think the action being taken at each point is reasonable. The decision to go to a Med strategy is made from the get-go, as I've already said. It only requires that the Germans realize that the Med will be a major theater and secure overland supply lines will be necessary to succeed there. Obviously, they wouldn't wait till July 1940 to sort out with Franco whether he would join up or not - that would have been cleared up well in advance.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 2:32:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: They could have supplied them via Athens. And in saying this you provide no proof, no counter argument to support what you say, just that one single sentence. That is arrogant in the extreme. I produce a comment from a US military study and you provide.... well you don't even provide one of your game maps - because if you recall correctly, there was no road or rail link from Athens to the Albanian front. You just effectively simply state that what Curtis Lemay says is fact - no evidence, proof or justification required. No roads or rail from Athens?? How did the Germans get there? Of course Athens would have served as a supply port.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 2:57:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 In removing these barges from the waterways of Europe, they had an economic impact. The barges were used in this fashion HISTORICALLY!! How could that cause any more impact than occurred historically?? warspite1 And here we have the perfect example of what I was talking about previously. Your debating style at very best, betrays a lack of understanding of the whole scenario on your part, and at worst is simply disingenuous. Once again you take one sentence, remove my other comments so that it is out of context and then spout the same thing - which simply repeats what you've asked (and has been answered) on more than one occasion. And you think that is proper, honest debating? Below is my answer and non-bold is the bit you've chosen to leave out - and as said, this is not the first time I've given this answer and not the first time you've asked the same question having ignored my point. Disgrace. quote: In removing these barges from the waterways of Europe, they had an economic impact. Now, suffering that economic hit because you need the barges to launch an invasion is one thing. Doing that for a deception operation (that based on what you've said yesterday actually makes no sense anyway) is the height of stupidity. After all, they would be leaving Britain untouched while harming their own economy and war making capacity. Nice double whammy there - and even worse, you are keeping those in Northern France for two years and so doubling the effect on the economy.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 3:10:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay Not if it deceives the British about the invasion threat. That facilitates the Spanish operation. warspite1 Just think for a nano-second about what you are saying. - According to you the attack on Spain is happening in July, with barely a pause after Case Red. - You've now suddenly decided a large part of the Luftwaffe will be needed for Spain...... interesting development wonder why that is?..... - But to facilitate the Spanish operation it's vital to make the British think there is going to be an invasion. Why? You've said: - The British can't respond with much as they are pretty much out of options. Quite, in the last month and a half they've been evacuated from France twice (although you seem to have no clue about one of these) and Norway. - They've left their heavy weapons behind in France - The RAF has suffered big losses in France and over Dunkirk - The Spanish operation will be a 'blitz' and over in a few weeks But now, according to you, the deception operation is needed to get the Spanish operation done. Why, given the above? And, if we are suspending disbelief and going with your ridiculous July date, why are the barges even necessary? How quickly can they possibly get to Northern France to be part of a deception operation for a Spanish operation that you think will be a blitz lasting a few weeks???? You just don't think anything through, it's all just off the top of your head with no detail, no thought, no nothing.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 3:14:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay Huh? No. Once Spain is out of the way, the deception is unnecessary. warspite1 Okay [takes deep breath.... and relax].... So according to you this deception operation is absolutely vital for Spain - even though the British Army is hors de combat and you say Spain will be a blitz. But the deception operation that stops the British reinforcing Egypt is simply not required for the rest of the scenario.... which will see reinforcements sent in numbers because there is no threat and with no BoB the British have been left entirely alone to begin the process of building back up..... ....right.....

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 3:20:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 What the hell has the Lancaster bomber - or any 4-engined bomber - got to do with the RAF in 1940???? It has nothing to do with the RAF in 1940. Where did I say it did? The British would not be the ones carrying out a strategic bombing campaign. The Germans would be. The Germans are the ones that need a strategic bomber and a long-range escort. They don't have either. warspite1 My goodness... So you were having a completely different conversation then? Here ONCE AGAIN, was the conversation: quote: And for the avoidance of doubt just in case you try and deflect by saying I am not making my point clear - here is the conversation in which we were talking about the respective fleets in the summer of 1940: w1: The Luftwaffe was vastly superior in numbers compared to the RAF CL: Not in terms of four-engine, heavily defended bombers. w1: Did you just say "four-engined heavily defended bombers"? I can't wait for the explanation of this. CL: If the Germans had fleets of four-engined heavily defended bombers - like the Lancaster - please let me know. And once again in time honoured Lemay style you make the same pointless comments, despite the fact they been answered more than once already and you've simply chosen to ignore them. quote: NO!!!!!!!!! I am saying that Goering believed he had what was needed in July 1940 to defeat the RAF - and what Goering believed is what is important. You did this with the Japan scenario, constantly asking what I would do or what I think. Who cares what I would do or what I think, it is irrelevant. With the weaponry at his disposal, Goering believed he could destroy the RAF in weeks (in fact he told Hitler he just needed 4 days of clear weather!!. The fact that we know otherwise 80 years later is simply not of any relevance to what the German High Command were thinking or thought they knew in the summer of 1940.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 3:25:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay Again, with the adoption of a Med strategy, the rationale for a BoB, especially with no cross-channel invasion, is no longer there. A significant fraction of the Luftwaffe is needed for Spain. The Med is going to be a major theater and therefore a better place to engage the RAF, because of Axis interior lines. warspite1 Ah, the penny drops... so that is why a significant part of the Luftwaffe is suddenly needed in Spain and that is why you've now decided to end the deception operation after Spain. If an argument isn't going well, well just change what you are saying until it does (obviously within the framework of never being wrong)....

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 3:31:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 What was vile or personal about that? The way you have approached this 'staff study' is nothing more than an Dream Axis Fanoboi Scenario. That is not rude - it is certainly not vile. Yes it is. You're not talking about the issue. You're talking about me. Stick to the facts and do not resort to personal comments. warspite1 Okay how about we do a deal. I will stop my rude and vile [8\|] comments (seriously??) if you: - stop being disingenuous by taking my comments out of context - stop pretending I haven't made my point clear when all you need to do is give me the courtesy of actually reading what I've written - stop being monumentally arrogant and insufferably ignorant by repeating the same thing numerous times with no effort made to explain or expand upon what you've said previously. - Give me the same courtesy I show you by actually being bothered to put some effort into the debate, by doing some proper research and, for example, if you are going to debunk a US military study, try explaining why instead of simply writing one sentence that says you are right. Let's try that going forward shall we?

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 3:38:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Except it doesn't. Instead of simply repeating the same one-liners why not spend some time writing out - as I've tried to do - a timeline of events as you see it? What conversations are being had when and by who, how is all this developing amongst the competing personalities, the Spanish, the French, the Italians? Your thinking doesn't seem to allow for the fact that no one in 1940 knew what was going to happen - they don't have the knowledge we do. As a result events are dynamic, they are fluid. For example we know what Franco will say to a German request to enter the war. But Hitler doesn't. But because you know, you simply ignore what, logically would have happened in the summer to get to a point where Hitler declares war on Spain (with all that means). You think you can just go from victory in France to attacking Spain. Sorry, life doesn't work like that and its that sort of thing that makes me call this a Dream Axis Fanboi Scenario. Surely, you must understand what invading Spain means for Germany from every possible viewpoint - military, economic, political? This is huge. Yet you treat it as nothing. You are actually putting forward the case (with your proposed timetable) that Hitler goes straight from defeat of France to attacking Spain. No preliminaries, no discussions, nothing. You don't want me to conclude that this is just a Dream Axis Fanboi Scenario? Right, okay, put some effort into it. Give an outline timetable and why you think the action being taken at each point is reasonable. The decision to go to a Med strategy is made from the get-go, as I've already said. It only requires that the Germans realize that the Med will be a major theater and secure overland supply lines will be necessary to succeed there. Obviously, they wouldn't wait till July 1940 to sort out with Franco whether he would join up or not - that would have been cleared up well in advance. warspite1 Once again. See what I mean? What a waste of time and energy. "from the get-go". Yeah thanks for that in-depth piece of work. I feel you've really got to the bottom of the whole scenario now. Thanks for that wonderful explanation. I now feel I really understand the timescale and how that timescale is possible. I feel you've really embraced the debate and taken on board the comments as to why its felt your timescale is wrong. You've superbly answered the problems of the political situation, the economic and indeed the military issues. Thanks for the great piece of analysis - I appreciate it.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/17/2020 3:49:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 quote: They could have supplied them via Athens. And in saying this you provide no proof, no counter argument to support what you say, just that one single sentence. That is arrogant in the extreme. I produce a comment from a US military study and you provide.... well you don't even provide one of your game maps - because if you recall correctly, there was no road or rail link from Athens to the Albanian front. You just effectively simply state that what Curtis Lemay says is fact - no evidence, proof or justification required. No roads or rail from Athens?? How did the Germans get there? Of course Athens would have served as a supply port. warspite1 Are you purposely trying to be obtuse? How did the Germans get to Athens? Well they didn't take the route we are talking about (but you've somehow decided to totally ignore). So let's be clear. A US military study - you know, logistics guys, staff officers, that sort of thing - decide that the Greek troops facing the Italians in the Northwest of the country were reliant upon supply from Salonika. Unlike the northeast of the country, the northwest is very mountainous and communication is difficult. That is what the US military guys who studied this came up with. But, quite clearly you've done your own in-depth analysis of the terrain and the logistical issues - you've looked at an SPI map.... Having looked, really hard, at that map, how do you answer (yet again) this point? quote: Of course Athens would have served as a supply port. Of course. How dumb of me, how dumb of the US military. If Curtis Lemay says its true well I guess it must be true right?

Zovs -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 2:40:29 PM)
This was from 1/1943 and we know that by then the German's were on the decline in Russia and the US was just getting into NA. https://i.redd.it/w7d8s7o9jsn51.jpg

Zovs -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 2:40:55 PM)
I thought that link and pic was kind of funny for 1943...

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 2:48:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 In removing these barges from the waterways of Europe, they had an economic impact. Now, suffering that economic hit because you need the barges to launch an invasion is one thing. Doing that for a deception operation (that based on what you've said yesterday actually makes no sense anyway) is the height of stupidity. After all, they would be leaving Britain untouched while harming their own economy and war making capacity. Nice double whammy there - and even worse, you are keeping those in Northern France for two years and so doubling the effect on the economy. I replied to this already: The deception facilitates the Spanish operation. I also question the impact the barges would have had on German war production. The Germans didn't go to a Total War economy till much later (I think after Stalingrad). So there was a lot of slack in armaments production that could be taken up if this sort of hit took place. In other words, this would impact piano production, etc., not armaments production. That's one of the reasons why the Strategic bombing campaign was so slow to register results.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 2:56:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 In removing these barges from the waterways of Europe, they had an economic impact. Now, suffering that economic hit because you need the barges to launch an invasion is one thing. Doing that for a deception operation (that based on what you've said yesterday actually makes no sense anyway) is the height of stupidity. After all, they would be leaving Britain untouched while harming their own economy and war making capacity. Nice double whammy there - and even worse, you are keeping those in Northern France for two years and so doubling the effect on the economy. I also question the impact the barges would have had on German war production. The Germans didn't go to a Total War economy till much later (I think after Stalingrad). So there was a lot of slack in armaments production that could be taken up if this sort of hit took place. In other words, this would impact piano production, etc., not armaments production. That's one of the reasons why the Strategic bombing campaign was so slow to register results. warspite1 We are not taking about what I say. I have given you two sources - one a German historian who has studied Sea Lion - who has confirmed the impact on the economy, but you are simply saying they are wrong and you are right?

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 2:59:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Just think for a nano-second about what you are saying. - According to you the attack on Spain is happening in July, with barely a pause after Case Red. - You've now suddenly decided a large part of the Luftwaffe will be needed for Spain...... interesting development wonder why that is?..... Significant part. Of course the Spanish operation needs air support! What military operation doesn't? quote: - But to facilitate the Spanish operation it's vital to make the British think there is going to be an invasion. Beneficial, not vital. quote: Why? You've said: - The British can't respond with much as they are pretty much out of options. Not much is still something. quote: Quite, in the last month and a half they've been evacuated from France twice (although you seem to have no clue about one of these) and Norway. - They've left their heavy weapons behind in France At least the BEF did. quote: - The RAF has suffered big losses in France and over Dunkirk I never said anything about that, but it's desirable that they should be deceived into thinking they need the RAF over the Channel. quote: - The Spanish operation will be a 'blitz' and over in a few weeks I don't know what the timeline will be, nor have I said the above. But, for sure, the Spanish are not a formidable force, compared, say, to the French. quote: And, if we are suspending disbelief and going with your ridiculous July date, why are the barges even necessary? How quickly can they possibly get to Northern France to be part of a deception operation for a Spanish operation that you think will be a blitz lasting a few weeks???? I don't see anything ridiculous about a July start date. The operational details can be planned well in advance. Claims that the Germans have to rest after just six weeks of fighting don't jib with the combat from the rest of the war by both sides.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 3:00:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 In removing these barges from the waterways of Europe, they had an economic impact. Now, suffering that economic hit because you need the barges to launch an invasion is one thing. Doing that for a deception operation (that based on what you've said yesterday actually makes no sense anyway) is the height of stupidity. After all, they would be leaving Britain untouched while harming their own economy and war making capacity. Nice double whammy there - and even worse, you are keeping those in Northern France for two years and so doubling the effect on the economy. I replied to this already: The deception facilitates the Spanish operation. warspite1 And I've answered this already. Go back and read how many times you've said the Spanish are dead meat, weak and will be blitzed easily. So why do the Germans need to launch a costly deception operation???? Previous response: Just think for a nano-second about what you are saying. - According to you the attack on Spain is happening in July, with barely a pause after Case Red. - You've now suddenly decided a large part of the Luftwaffe will be needed for Spain...... interesting development wonder why that is?..... - But to facilitate the Spanish operation it's vital to make the British think there is going to be an invasion. Why? You've said: - The British can't respond with much as they are pretty much out of options. Quite, in the last month and a half they've been evacuated from France twice (although you seem to have no clue about one of these) and Norway. - They've left their heavy weapons behind in France - The RAF has suffered big losses in France and over Dunkirk - The Spanish operation will be a 'blitz' and over in a few weeks But now, according to you, the deception operation is needed to get the Spanish operation done. Why, given the above?

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 3:03:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Ah, the penny drops... so that is why a significant part of the Luftwaffe is suddenly needed in Spain and that is why you've now decided to end the deception operation after Spain. If an argument isn't going well, well just change what you are saying until it does (obviously within the framework of never being wrong).... I haven't changed anything. The premise has always been that the Germans decide on a Med strategy from the start of the war. Why would there be any need for deception after Spain has been subdued?

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 3:03:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay I don't see anything ridiculous about a July start date. warspite1 I'll try one more attempt at answering that later today.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 3:06:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay I haven't changed anything. The premise has always been that the Germans decide on a Med strategy from the start of the war. warspite1 Can you confirm in which post you've said "from the start of the war?". Perhaps I missed it. If I have, my apologies as I would never even have entered a debate with you if I'd known you'd said that.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 3:07:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Are you purposely trying to be obtuse? How did the Germans get to Athens? Well they didn't take the route we are talking about (but you've somehow decided to totally ignore). So let's be clear. A US military study - you know, logistics guys, staff officers, that sort of thing - decide that the Greek troops facing the Italians in the Northwest of the country were reliant upon supply from Salonika. Unlike the northeast of the country, the northwest is very mountainous and communication is difficult. That is what the US military guys who studied this came up with. But, quite clearly you've done your own in-depth analysis of the terrain and the logistical issues - you've looked at an SPI map.... Having looked, really hard, at that map, how do you answer (yet again) this point? Are you seriously saying that supply lines are blocked by HILLS?!! If you can move normal military units (not Mountain units) over terrain, the supply columns can follow.

Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 3:15:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Can you confirm in which post you've said "from the start of the war?". Perhaps I missed it. If I have, my apologies as I would never even have entered a debate with you if I'd known you'd said that. From post #81: "Just assume this was the German plan all along."

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 3:17:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Are you purposely trying to be obtuse? How did the Germans get to Athens? Well they didn't take the route we are talking about (but you've somehow decided to totally ignore). So let's be clear. A US military study - you know, logistics guys, staff officers, that sort of thing - decide that the Greek troops facing the Italians in the Northwest of the country were reliant upon supply from Salonika. Unlike the northeast of the country, the northwest is very mountainous and communication is difficult. That is what the US military guys who studied this came up with. But, quite clearly you've done your own in-depth analysis of the terrain and the logistical issues - you've looked at an SPI map.... Having looked, really hard, at that map, how do you answer (yet again) this point? Are you seriously saying that supply lines are blocked by HILLS?!! If you can move normal military units (not Mountain units) over terrain, the supply columns can follow. warspite1 No. I am not. I have never been in the military, I've never been to the hills of northwestern Greece/Albania. That is why I may have an opinion and I may offer up an opinion, but it is purely that. When I read what professional soldiers - who have made a study of the terrain and know what is involved in supplying a Greek army - have to say, I tend to take notice of it and not simply dismiss it out of hand because it doesn't fit what I want it to say.

warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 3:19:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Can you confirm in which post you've said "from the start of the war?". Perhaps I missed it. If I have, my apologies as I would never even have entered a debate with you if I'd known you'd said that. From post #81: "Just assume this was the German plan all along." warspite1 To be clear, because I don't want to get this wrong; you are suggesting that it is reasonable to assume that from September 1939 Hitler had it in mind to attack Gibraltar? To further clarify, at what point does Franco get asked to join in?

Zovs -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 3:58:15 PM)
So I have been following all along and I must say I am just as confused as I was when I first started following along. I think I am following along with warspites reason and logic. But with Curtis Lemay I have no clue. As we used to say in the US Cavalry "Lima Lima Mike Foxtrot" ... I'll leave you to figure out what LLMF means... hint the CO sends this out: "Red One, this is Black Six over", "Black Six, this is Red One over", "Red One, what is your current location, over", "...Black Six, this is Red One, ... Lima Lima Mike Foxtrot, over" from there the conversation starts to turn very bad...

RangerJoe -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 4:08:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Are you purposely trying to be obtuse? How did the Germans get to Athens? Well they didn't take the route we are talking about (but you've somehow decided to totally ignore). So let's be clear. A US military study - you know, logistics guys, staff officers, that sort of thing - decide that the Greek troops facing the Italians in the Northwest of the country were reliant upon supply from Salonika. Unlike the northeast of the country, the northwest is very mountainous and communication is difficult. That is what the US military guys who studied this came up with. But, quite clearly you've done your own in-depth analysis of the terrain and the logistical issues - you've looked at an SPI map.... Having looked, really hard, at that map, how do you answer (yet again) this point? Are you seriously saying that supply lines are blocked by HILLS?!! If you can move normal military units (not Mountain units) over terrain, the supply columns can follow. Not necessarily and if you knew how to do a map reconnaissance you may learn why not.

RangerJoe -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/18/2020 4:14:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay quote: ORIGINAL: warspite1 Just think for a nano-second about what you are saying. - According to you the attack on Spain is happening in July, with barely a pause after Case Red. - You've now suddenly decided a large part of the Luftwaffe will be needed for Spain...... interesting development wonder why that is?..... Significant part. Of course the Spanish operation needs air support! What military operation doesn't? I don't think that George Washington, Napoleon Buonaparte, Genghis Khan, Julius, Caesar, Alexander the Great, among many others did not have air support. quote: And, if we are suspending disbelief and going with your ridiculous July date, why are the barges even necessary? How quickly can they possibly get to Northern France to be part of a deception operation for a Spanish operation that you think will be a blitz lasting a few weeks???? I don't see anything ridiculous about a July start date. The operational details can be planned well in advance. Claims that the Germans have to rest after just six weeks of fighting don't jib with the combat from the rest of the war by both sides. I did not state that the Germans need to rest. I stated that their vehicles and equipment needed maintenance. You are obviously ignorant about military equipment and its operations.

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