RE: FITE2 EARLY START Loveman2 vs thomasharvey (Full Version)

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thomasharvey -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START Loveman2 vs thomasharvey (10/7/2021 1:01:26 AM)

T165 1/17/43 Here is Festung Bucharest! Will Bucharest hold out longer than Festung Berlin?

[image]local://upfiles/50703/19715CA2D56548EEB0319CDC6C49FF42.jpg[/image]



thomasharvey -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START Loveman2 vs thomasharvey (10/9/2021 3:00:54 AM)

T166 1/20/43 Here is a view of the Berlin-Oder front. The lead Soviet forces are 18 hexes from Berlin.

[image]local://upfiles/50703/101668FC8A8E457493ADBBB372DE5E51.jpg[/image]



rhinobones -> FITE2 EARLY START (10/9/2021 3:18:54 AM)

Looks like the Soviets are about two years ahead of the historical schedule. Is this due to excellent play on the Soviet side or does the scenario need to be tuned up a bit? Either way, I’m enjoying the AAR as is.

Regards



thomasharvey -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/13/2021 3:28:12 AM)

T168 1/27/43 Festung Bucharest fights on.

[image]local://upfiles/50703/67797A5647E84C56AF3E0D161FF53402.jpg[/image]



thomasharvey -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/13/2021 3:30:10 AM)

T168 1/27/43 The Battle for the Oder river is heating up. Berlin is noted.

[image]local://upfiles/50703/62971C17A58E48729F8081CFA67EF37A.jpg[/image]



governato -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/15/2021 2:09:28 AM)

what's the trucks situation for the Red Army, is there a surplus in your inventory? Just curious how the Red Army was able to make so much progress so early.



thomasharvey -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/15/2021 2:38:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: governato

what's the trucks situation for the Red Army, is there a surplus in your inventory? Just curious how the Red Army was able to make so much progress so early.



T170 2/3/43 Plenty of vehicles available of all types.

[image]local://upfiles/50703/E49B2F34DEE84EBEA292EE60EFC84335.jpg[/image]



thomasharvey -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/15/2021 3:32:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

Looks like the Soviets are about two years ahead of the historical schedule. Is this due to excellent play on the Soviet side or does the scenario need to be tuned up a bit? Either way, I’m enjoying the AAR as is.

Regards




The German Army Group Center was destroyed in the winter of 41. The Russians then grouped all their rail repair units together and repaired the rail line between Moscow and Minsk as fast as possible. The Germans could not stop the Red Army until after the line was repaired past Minsk. Only then were the rails repaired north and south. The improved road from Moscow to Minsk also helped speed things along.



rhinobones -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/15/2021 3:41:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thomasharvey

The improved road from Moscow to Minsk also helped speed things along.



Improved Road defeats "mud" . . . sounds like a winning move. Did the Soviets actually have that many miles of improved roads?


Regards



thomasharvey -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/15/2021 6:20:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


quote:

ORIGINAL: thomasharvey

The improved road from Moscow to Minsk also helped speed things along.



Improved Road defeats "mud" . . . sounds like a winning move. Did the Soviets actually have that many miles of improved roads?


Regards




As far as I know the only improved road in Russia at that time was Minsk to Smolensk to Moscow highway. There are very few rivers across that route either so it was the easiest path to and from the border to Moscow. Both sides can use it for rapid advance.

[image]local://upfiles/50703/3567F16B0DCF4C43BA60A1D31B31C8B1.jpg[/image]



governato -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/15/2021 11:46:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thomasharvey


quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


quote:

ORIGINAL: thomasharvey

The improved road from Moscow to Minsk also helped speed things along.



Improved Road defeats "mud" . . . sounds like a winning move. Did the Soviets actually have that many miles of improved roads?


Regards




As far as I know the only improved road in Russia at that time was Minsk to Smolensk to Moscow highway. There are very few rivers across that route either so it was the easiest path to and from the border to Moscow. Both sides can use it for rapid advance.




Confirm! However in 1942 the Red Army did not have enough trucks to fully mobilize its forces and take advantage of the road network. Trucks are abstracted in TOAW (as in 1 game truck does not correspond to one real truck, ad difference with say tanks) and also trucks never break down...
so if in the scenario the Red Army has an excess of (16000+!) trucks maybe their production could be cut down to make its rate of advance more realistic.



Lobster -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/15/2021 12:46:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thomasharvey

As far as I know the only improved road in Russia at that time was Minsk to Smolensk to Moscow highway.


A myth. [;)] (BTW, improved can be hard surfaced with gravel or crushed rock and considered all weather.)

By 1937 the Soviet Union had over 7,000 km of paved roads with the majority situated west of the Volga where the population was greatest.

The Minsk to Moscow road was not completely paved. Minsk to Smolensk had large portions that had only been graded. Some maps show Brest to Minsk as being completely paved. It had not even been graded in 1941. You could travel Brest to Slutsk and then north to Minsk on paved roads.



governato -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/15/2021 12:59:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: thomasharvey

As far as I know the only improved road in Russia at that time was Minsk to Smolensk to Moscow highway.


A myth. [;)] (BTW, improved can be hard surfaced with gravel or crushed rock and considered all weather.)

By 1937 the Soviet Union had over 7,000 km of paved roads with the majority situated west of the Volga where the population was greatest.

The Minsk to Moscow road was not completely paved. Minsk to Smolensk had large portions that had only been graded. Some maps show Brest to Minsk as being completely paved. It had not even been graded in 1941. You could travel Brest to Slutsk and then north to Minsk on paved roads.


That's interesting! do you have a reference?

To my knowledge the Minsk-Moscow highway was the only one that could sustain an all weather large flow of traffic.

Either way, I am not sure that particular highway can be the only reason the Red Army is at the gates of Berlin in 1942 in this scenario. Likely a combination of a successful winter offensive in 41/42 and soft factors as supply rates and truck replacements. Any further comments from the players 'd be welcome!



Lobster -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/15/2021 3:12:57 PM)

I don't recall where I read the bit where the road between Minsk and Smolensk was unfinished. I do recall the completed parts were either concrete slab or asphalt. But I did read it and have seen other evidence. That's good enough for me. BTW AGC had 46 Construction Battalions 9 being road construction and 12 bridge construction. They were well aware of the condition of the Soviet roads and had planned for the Minsk to Moscow rollbahn. Unfortunately there is no way to build roads in TOAW. Not going to hijack the thread any further. Sorry guys. [;)]



[image]local://upfiles/45799/498E6AD8CB444548A771F744E3249560.jpg[/image]



thomasharvey -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/15/2021 8:06:05 PM)

Here is an excerpt from comments of a German General Staff officer in the German Army transportation division. It was originally published in 1953 under the supervision of the US Army Historical dept.

B. Highways

1. Background of the Existing Highway Net

In 1941 European Russia did not have a highway net comparable to those in western European countries. The few roads which existed had only a limited capacity and apparently had not undergone any appreciable change in construction or lay-out during the past 100 year3, a condition due primarily to the relatively small demands of peacetime traffic. There were two types of roads:

a. the long, straight thoroughfares intended for commercial and military traffic, which usually followed the valleys of the larger rivers and connected cultural and industrial areas;

b. the unimproved roads which had developed through constant use of the same route connecting small settlements with nearby fields and forests,

2. Condition and Capacity of Roads

In contrast to the former Baltic States, where paved roads were common, the roads in European Russia had paved or asphalt surfacing only in and near large cities and industrial centers. The only road which had been bui1t according to western European standards and which was given constant maintenance was the Minsk - Moscow highway. The Germans designated this highway as Army Group Canter's "Rollbahn.”

The terms "Trakte" or "Greter" were used to refer to those through roads which cut straight across country and were often more than 100 yards wide. In summer these roads were extremely dusty. After a rain or thaw they became so mired that they could not be used by wheeled vehicles. Deep gullies cutting across these roads were particularly troublesome. Attempts to overcome the effects of weather by digging drainage ditches or by rolling were of little help because the roads did not have a hard top.

In an effort to overcome mud and snow the Germans often improvised wooden or ice roads. Wooden roads were constructed by laying down ribbons of planks spaced the width of the vehicular tread. Ice roads made use of frozen bodies of water or were fashioned by pouring water over deep snow. The use of corduroy roads and the tremendous amount of labor needed to construct them will be described later in this study.

Here is a location to the full study:

https://www.allworldwars.com/Comments-on-Russian-Roads-and-Higways-by-Max-Bork.html#Conclusions

As for the scenario, the only improved road on the map of significant length is the Minsk to Moscow highway which would be accurate. There are improved roads in cities and industrial areas.


Comments on the current scenario:

The speed of the Russian advance could only occur with rapid supply from rail repair following the German summer of 41 offensive. This was possible following the total destruction of Army Group Center in the winter of 41 using the shock effects provided to the Red Army. I also ignored the southern areas as you can see in the postings. Both sides have very little recon ability so the Germans are in the dark about where the Russian reserves are. Only a few token Russians were in the entire south for the first year of the war. All power was directed towards Minsk and beyond.

In the summer of 42 the Russian offensive was paused due to more shock effects provided to the German Army. I was planning to finish off the Germans with a final winter of 42 offensive using more shock provided to the Red Army. However, a problem occurred. I forgot to trigger the theater option of the 42 winter offensive on the first turn it was available. I thought maybe I lost it all but the scenario information seems to indicate it is available for 2 turns. So, I triggered it on the second turn it was available. Only some of the effects of the 42 winter offensive were started. I had an increase in supply radius along with an increase is supply stockpile. Two "140% chits" were listed as additional theater options and the German Army was in shock on the first turn of this winter offensive by 80%. The big problem was there was no other Russian positive shock that was advertised in the documentation. There are supposed to be many turns of positive shock similar to the 41 winter offensive but there were none other that the two "chits."

On the next turn I triggered the first chit thinking maybe that would trigger the other shock turns but NO! It did trigger one turn at 140% but none on subsequent turns. The German army smartly withdrew just before I could use the 140% turn! I got nothing significant on that first turn. So now I knew there was just the one Chit left and nothing more related to shock. The German army recovered from 80% shock in one turn as advertised.

So now I had to do something!! I decided to keep this secret until now hoping the German Army would at least be intimidated by shock that might be there. I charged forward as best I could and tried to bypass German units. Finally the German Army noticed it could and did stop my advance. The German army dug in another strong line I could not break. So, as in the start of the first winter offensive, I packed in all the units I could from the entire map in several layers deep up against this strong German line and then executed my last chit. The German Army did not notice my 140% shock this time for some reason and stayed put. My last 140% shock attack was done with maximum effect including placing the Red Air Force forward on the previous turn. There were over 200 attacks, again destroying most of Army group center. The rivers and swamps were frozen which aided attacks and importantly movement.

In several turns my attacks and movement pushed the line well west of Minsk where I was stopped again. By then I had enough troops to send some to the south. My rail repair units got busy and went all the way to the black sea trying to stretch out the Axis forces. Rumania refused to surrender despite losing their surrender cities. The Rumanian Army will all have to be eliminated to the last unit. Rumania will probably not change sides nor will Bulgaria.

Now the Russian rail repair units are repairing 3 different lines to the west but they all go through Minsk before branching out. By avoiding rail repair south of the Pripyat marshes and having multiple victories on the battlefield against the German Army, Berlin is only 13 hexes away from the forward Red Army units in early 43.


Regarding having extra trucks in inventory, I do not think this made any difference. The bulk of the Russian units are rifle divisions and brigades. Those units are entirely on foot. There are no trucks at all in the inventory of infantry regiments. I had to make do with that.

Now, back to the front.




thomasharvey -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/15/2021 8:20:02 PM)

T170 2/3/43 Here is the current Berlin front.

[image]local://upfiles/50703/6D0D0B3E22FC42558BCDC6F0E1524EA0.jpg[/image]



governato -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/16/2021 1:31:45 PM)

quote:



Here is a location to the full study:

https://www.allworldwars.com/Comments-on-Russian-Roads-and-Higways-by-Max-Bork.html#Conclusions

As for the scenario, the only improved road on the map of significant length is the Minsk to Moscow highway which would be accurate. There are improved roads in cities and industrial areas.



Thanks for sharing impressions and sources. That is how scenarios get better. Plus I trust German Staff reports a little more than their Generals' memoirs...



Lobster -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/17/2021 1:15:45 AM)

Yes I have that blurb bookmarked also.

I also have this:

The Soviet Economy and the Red Army: Walter S. Dunn, Jr.

The generally poor quality Russian roads were of little value for longdistance movement until 1943, when large
numbers of four- and six-wheel-drive lend-lease U.S. trucks carried heavy cargos of supplies over long distances. The
Soviet Union possessed few all-weather roads compared to other European countries. In 1928 there were 32,000 km of
hard-surfaced roads and 1,400,000 km of dirt roads. But the five-year plans intended to make some improvements.
The First Five-Year Plan included construction of 117,000 km of roads, including 15,000 km of paved roads. In 1933
the Russians had 40,000 km of paved roads, .5 km per 100 square km. The Second Five-Year Plan included
construction and repair of 210,000 km of roads, including 30,000 paved, 22,400 recovered with gravel, 77,600 graded,
and 80,000 improved. By 1937 there were 400,000 km of graded roads including 70,000 km of paved roads. However,
Russia still had less than 1 km per 100 sq km, compared to 104.9 km per 100 sq km in France and 48.6 in Germany.
Other sources stated that the Soviet Union had 7,100 km of concrete or asphalt roads and 136,300 km of hard-surfaced.

Here is a section of a RKKA 100k topo map 1941 section N36-26 showing the road Smolensk to Vitebsk. The lines on each side of the road show this as a hard surfaced all weather road. If it were in more colors the middle part would be red. There were many such roads. Not just the Smolensk-Moscow road. That's why I never use just one source. Three or more and go with the majority.


[image]local://upfiles/45799/942FD04F941C42589A52353BE766A0D5.jpg[/image]



golden delicious -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/18/2021 9:01:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thomasharvey

In the summer of 42 the Russian offensive was paused due to more shock effects provided to the German Army. I was planning to finish off the Germans with a final winter of 42 offensive using more shock provided to the Red Army. However, a problem occurred. I forgot to trigger the theater option of the 42 winter offensive on the first turn it was available. I thought maybe I lost it all but the scenario information seems to indicate it is available for 2 turns. So, I triggered it on the second turn it was available. Only some of the effects of the 42 winter offensive were started. I had an increase in supply radius along with an increase is supply stockpile. Two "140% chits" were listed as additional theater options and the German Army was in shock on the first turn of this winter offensive by 80%. The big problem was there was no other Russian positive shock that was advertised in the documentation. There are supposed to be many turns of positive shock similar to the 41 winter offensive but there were none other that the two "chits."

On the next turn I triggered the first chit thinking maybe that would trigger the other shock turns but NO! It did trigger one turn at 140% but none on subsequent turns. The German army smartly withdrew just before I could use the 140% turn! I got nothing significant on that first turn. So now I knew there was just the one Chit left and nothing more related to shock. The German army recovered from 80% shock in one turn as advertised.

So now I had to do something!! I decided to keep this secret until now hoping the German Army would at least be intimidated by shock that might be there. I charged forward as best I could and tried to bypass German units. Finally the German Army noticed it could and did stop my advance. The German army dug in another strong line I could not break. So, as in the start of the first winter offensive, I packed in all the units I could from the entire map in several layers deep up against this strong German line and then executed my last chit. The German Army did not notice my 140% shock this time for some reason and stayed put. My last 140% shock attack was done with maximum effect including placing the Red Air Force forward on the previous turn. There were over 200 attacks, again destroying most of Army group center. The rivers and swamps were frozen which aided attacks and importantly movement.


It sounds like you really made the most of the tools the designer gave you, but this really is a big advert for reducing the use of timed shock effects in a scenario. What is this actually supposed to represent?



golden delicious -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/18/2021 9:05:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

But the five-year plans intended to make some improvements.


The key word here is "intended". The nature of the five year plans was such that I wouldn't be surprised if the people in charge on the ground reported that a road existed because they had been ordered to build it and they knew the consequences of failure. No doubt maps were drawn up based on such reports.

I'm not going so far as to say that any particular source was a fiction- but if you're looking at two sources, one saying there's a road and another saying there's not, I'd be more inclined to believe the latter.



Lobster -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/18/2021 12:19:54 PM)

On the other hand not doing what you were told could also result in certain death. That was vividly illustrated early in the war when political officers summarily executed high ranking Soviet officers who insisted they could not execute an attack because their forces would have to be commited a piece at a time unless they waited a day or two to begin the attack. Also, Russian cartography is ranked with the best in the world and has been for centuries. Additionally I use three or four sources. Polish, German and Soviet. The Germans marched through the land. They would know. The Soviets lived there. They would know. I also use the maps from the John Tiller series as references. You are telling me these are all incorrect? Fine. I'll stick with incorrect. [;)]



golden delicious -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/18/2021 1:15:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

On the other hand not doing what you were told could also result in certain death.


I'm sure, but the trouble is the 5 year plan orders were often nonsensical. I recall a story (which of course may be apocryphal) about the shortage of railway engines in Stalinist Russia. Some party luminary hit upon a solution- simply double the number of cars pulled by each engine! Well of course a number of railway engineers pointed out that this was ridiculous and would cause no end of breakdowns, derailments not to mention reducing the accelerating and breaking speed etc. Such complaints were dismissed as counter-revolutionary and the engineers who complained were shot out of hand.

The plan went ahead under the control of the surviving engineers who had kept quiet and of course the predicted derailments and other disasters promptly occurred. Ah, said the commissar, and why didn't you warn us that this could happen? Of course it's because you're a capitalist-imperialist saboteur! The remaining engineers then had their turn in an unlit basement....

So if you get an impossible order, you certainly report that the order has been carried out. Worry later about how to demonstrate that it's been done.

quote:

You are telling me these are all incorrect?


I more or less exactly said that I wasn't saying this.

It sounds like you've done a lot of research, but note that people do have this habit of basing their work off what others have done. There was a guy in the 17th century who fabricated an account of Roman Britain, which was so widely relied upon by later authors that modern writing about Roman Britain is only now beginning to purge the falsehoods from this account, as so much work has been done based on secondary sources.



Lobster -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/18/2021 2:42:32 PM)

Ah...so the German and Polish map makers were also under Soviet control. Sorry, I didn't know that. My mistake.



golden delicious -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/18/2021 3:03:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Ah...so the German and Polish map makers were also under Soviet control. Sorry, I didn't know that. My mistake.


My question is: what was the date of the German map? If the German map is prior to 1941, then it's likely it is largely a copy of a Russian map. It's not like the Wehrmacht had surveyors out examining the conditions on the ground in the Soviet Union. I don't think they had Google Earth in those days, either.

Of course if it's after 1941 then it'll be the result of bitter experience after the Germans actually entered Russia.



Lobster -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/18/2021 4:02:42 PM)

I dated the map. I see no reason to repeat. It's obvious you want to ignore the evidence and I refuse to hijack this thread any further to suit you. Lobster out.



thomasharvey -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/20/2021 9:44:35 PM)

T173 2/14/43 The center of Berlin is 12 hexes away from the Soviet forward units.

[image]local://upfiles/50703/5EBFBB875F2D4439B21E4A0F46CE2B8C.jpg[/image]



thomasharvey -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/20/2021 9:46:21 PM)

T173 2/14/43 Here is the view from space. Festung Budapest is noted. Festung Bucharest has been eliminated.

[image]local://upfiles/50703/5F464462D7DA41ADA5045CBC7FB1B578.jpg[/image]



fogger -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/21/2021 12:03:13 AM)

Here is part of an email exchange between Soren and myself.

"No we haven’t made any new updates. Try ask Kristian for the new version. I cant wait till I get the time to get back to it. The real issue is the Germans in 1942, they seem to weak, and the soviets too strong. We can fix that.

1941 works perfectly I would say."

But having played against Willie I think Thomas is also a very good player.




thomasharvey -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/21/2021 4:11:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger

Here is part of an email exchange between Soren and myself.

"No we haven’t made any new updates. Try ask Kristian for the new version. I cant wait till I get the time to get back to it. The real issue is the Germans in 1942, they seem to weak, and the soviets too strong. We can fix that.

1941 works perfectly I would say."

But having played against Willie I think Thomas is also a very good player.





Thanks for the compliment.



fogger -> RE: FITE2 EARLY START (10/21/2021 5:10:18 AM)

Just lunning you into a false sense of security for when we resume/ restart our game. [;)]



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