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loki100 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/27/2022 1:13:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Thanks for the answers. It is probably better not to do a deep dive into logistics for the sake of own mental health :D

If you are correct about this:
"The 30 hex rule means that a Size 2+ railyard can 'lend' its trains to another railyard of any size within 30 hexes, which can then be used to transport freight up to 200SMPs."

Then is it possible that depot A lend trains to depot B as they are within 30 hexes. Then depot B lend trains that it got from A and its own to a C and so on?

So any railyard on the map can contribute to a global freight network if there are no gaps of > 30 hexes between lvl 2 depots?


Don't mix up depots with railyards.

Stamb - I don't know where you got all this from but its utterly wrong, to the point of being very misleading. The answer to your original questions as posed are No/No/No/No - it really is that fundamental

This is in the manual - just read the Player's Notes section on how the basics of the logistics system works.

And "any railyard on the map can contribute to a global freight network if there are no gaps of > 30 hexes between lvl 2 depots?" is completely wrong, there is no global freight network (as there was in WiTE1).

freight entrains, to do this and gain the SMP to move the desired distance (remember it can cost > 1MP/hex) it draws on stocks within 30 hexes (nearest first), thats it - it then uses that rail capacity to move. Then the next bit of freight does the same thing

Its actually not complex, and some of the claims in a few AARs are downright misleading.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Does a depot have to exist on the hex with the size 2+ railyard in order for its trains to be 'lent' to another railyard?


no, the 'trains' are connected to the railyard not to the existence (or not) of any depot



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/27/2022 1:26:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Thanks for the answers. It is probably better not to do a deep dive into logistics for the sake of own mental health :D

If you are correct about this:
"The 30 hex rule means that a Size 2+ railyard can 'lend' its trains to another railyard of any size within 30 hexes, which can then be used to transport freight up to 200SMPs."

Then is it possible that depot A lend trains to depot B as they are within 30 hexes. Then depot B lend trains that it got from A and its own to a C and so on?

So any railyard on the map can contribute to a global freight network if there are no gaps of > 30 hexes between lvl 2 depots?


I don't think it can happen directly in the way you describe.

So say you have Railyard A, B and C separated by 20 hexes (so A and C are 40 hexes apart). And that each Railyard has the capacity to move 5k freight. If you had 15k freight in depot C (and nothing in the other depots) it could only send out 10k of it

But it can happen more indirectly. Say we change the distribution of the freight so there is nothing at A, 5k in B and 10k in C. B can use A's trains to move its 5k and C can then use B's trains and it's own to move its 10k. So the extra capacity provided by A has been 'passed along the chain' if that makes sense?



Stamb -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/27/2022 1:26:56 PM)

I did read Player's Notes, if it is file 7 in manual folder, after your first message.
I have general understanding from where to where freight is moving and even trying to do pull push strategy. Just wanted to understand what is going with that lvl 2 railyards and their contribution to freight movement. That is why I was asking questions specifically with such number as 29 and 31 hexes.

Thanks all for replies.




loki100 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/27/2022 1:37:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I did read Player's Notes, if it is file 7 in manual folder, after your first message.
I have general understanding from where to where freight is moving and even trying to do pull push strategy. Just wanted to understand what is going with that lvl 2 railyards and their contribution to freight movement. That is why I was asking questions specifically with such number as 29 and 31 hexes.

Thanks all for replies.




take the Berlin NSS, add up all the level 2+ railyards in 30 hexes, if nothing else claims that rail cap then that is the absolute available to move freight from Berlin. Do the same for Frankfurt, Prague and Vienna - clearly there are overlaps (as a clue, it picks up pretty much every railyard west of Warsaw).

In the end that is a finite max cap.

You may have lost some of this max value via unit rail moves.

How much freight can then be moved from the NSS has 2 variables - how far (further costs more base rail cap) and if there is congestion (ditto).

You can track this as I did from game start to June 42. The amount sent out dips as the axis move east, and on those turns when I entrained units, it increases as secondary rail lines come into use (less congestion).

If you have freight stored say at Minsk, if it moves depot-depot, it will pull the needed rail cap from 30 hexes of Minsk - this is why using admin pts to speed the repair of rail yards that are not going to be depots is a waste - by the time you need it (ie for rail moves) it will have repaired normally

For setting up depots for onward naval transport. Use Stettin or Rostov set to export and priority 1. Export ports get their freight first (so that the freight is there), these 2 will demand almost no rail cap for the NSS-port move. You can then have the receipt ports at 2 and use 3 or 4 elsewhere in the system to pull t to the front.

edit: I, of course, should have written Rostock in the para above.



Jango32 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/27/2022 1:38:59 PM)

Alright. One more; does the railyard need to be as close to 0 damage as possible to lend as many trains as are available, or is railyard damage something that concerns depots only?



loki100 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/27/2022 1:42:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Alright. One more; does the railyard need to be as close to 0 damage as possible to lend as many trains as are available, or is railyard damage something that concerns depots only?


yes damage both removes 'trains' as well as hitting any associated depot processing capacity. So a level 2 railyard with 50% damage can only produce half the trains as if it was undamaged.

I'm not sure this makes a great difference (or more strictly is hard to generate the level of damage that hurts). I did some left hand-right hand testing in WiTW really hitting the Berlin railyards to the point where they were 60%+ damaged, not sure it hit German movement capacity - but then in WiTW the axis player is less dependent on rail than they are in WiTE2 (on the other hand the Soviets can't flatten parts of Berlin with strategic bombing)



Beethoven1 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/27/2022 1:49:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

If you have freight stored say at Minsk, if it moves depot-depot, it will pull the needed rail cap from 30 hexes of Minsk - this is why using admin pts to speed the repair of rail yards that are not going to be depots is a waste - by the time you need it (ie for rail moves) it will have repaired normally


Follow up -

1) Would or could it not be worthwhile to repair a railyard using admin points if it is a large railyard which is fairly heavily damaged (so it would take a while to repair normally), and is also going to be pretty significantly behind the front line?

2) Is it also not worthwhile to use admin points to repair ports? Doesn't port damage affect how much freight a port can receive, and if so would it not be worthwhile to repair a newly captured port more quickly?


Thank you for this and other insights, the last page or two of this thread has been enlightening and helpful!



Stamb -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/27/2022 1:51:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
...

For setting up depots for onward naval transport. Use Stettin or Rostov set to export and priority 1. Export ports get their freight first (so that the freight is there), these 2 will demand almost no rail cap for the NSS-port move. You can then have the receipt ports at 2 and use 3 or 4 elsewhere in the system to pull t to the front.

this is interesting

I was trying to use the closest export port in relation to import. I though that cargo ships will have less distance to travel thus moving more freight. Is distance irrelevant for a naval freight transport?

As Stettin is far behind Hel or Danzig.

Edit.

Game is trying to use the closest export port. Also I am not sure why Hel got freight from Danzig as they are on the same priority, or ports are allowed to do so?

[image]local://upfiles/82464/A399DB562E494EDFB6EB99F1CEC2113B.jpg[/image]



Beethoven1 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/27/2022 1:58:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
...

For setting up depots for onward naval transport. Use Stettin or Rostov set to export and priority 1. Export ports get their freight first (so that the freight is there), these 2 will demand almost no rail cap for the NSS-port move. You can then have the receipt ports at 2 and use 3 or 4 elsewhere in the system to pull t to the front.

this is interesting

I was trying to use the closest export port in relation to import. I though that cargo ships will have less distance to travel thus moving more freight. Is distance irrelevant for a naval freight transport?

As Stettin is far behind Hel or Danzig.

Edit.

Game is trying to use the closest export port.

local://upfiles/82464/A399DB562E494EDFB6EB99F1CEC2113B.jpg


Are we sure Loki actually means Rostov here? Do you mean Odessa or something maybe? Rostov is pretty far in to the Soviet union to be a primary EXPORT port for Axis, I would have thought (except maybe for transporting far into the Caucasus)!



loki100 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/27/2022 3:18:38 PM)

sorry yes Rostock

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

If you have freight stored say at Minsk, if it moves depot-depot, it will pull the needed rail cap from 30 hexes of Minsk - this is why using admin pts to speed the repair of rail yards that are not going to be depots is a waste - by the time you need it (ie for rail moves) it will have repaired normally


Follow up -

1) Would or could it not be worthwhile to repair a railyard using admin points if it is a large railyard which is fairly heavily damaged (so it would take a while to repair normally), and is also going to be pretty significantly behind the front line?

2) Is it also not worthwhile to use admin points to repair ports? Doesn't port damage affect how much freight a port can receive, and if so would it not be worthwhile to repair a newly captured port more quickly?


Thank you for this and other insights, the last page or two of this thread has been enlightening and helpful!


its so situational, its not just when do you want to use depot X (lets say Minsk) as a depot-depot transfer (ie its disconnected from the immediate front line supply and you have enough freight coming in that intermediate depots and build ups are worth the effort), its also how much freight will be there to send on.

2 feasible egs:

a) Lets say you have Kiev on a small spur and its functioning as some sort of intermediate depot. For some time the amount its likely to store/build up is relatively minimal, so when you want to send it on, its likely that the Kiev railyard may do the job on its own.

b) or, as in my current MP game, I can build up massive stocks say at Kiev or Minsk and push it forward when it suits me. Well to empty that lot out and move on, I'd need other 2+ railyards in the same broad area (the 30 hex rule)

So the impossible to answer question is how soon do you transition to 'b' and does that happen before organic repair?

Note if a railyard is 2 or more and will have an active depot, then of course its worth a priority repair.

This is one, of a number, of aspects of the logistics system where I've changed my mind over the last year as to how to manage.

edit: ports should be a priority, in the end they are bottlenecks and its best to clear that asap, that they are also free depots adds to the logic of getting them repaired asap.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

...

Game is trying to use the closest export port. Also I am not sure why Hel got freight from Danzig as they are on the same priority, or ports are allowed to do so?
...


then I'd say - as so often - the system makes a good choice, afaik distance doesn't come into play on naval transport. Such a pity to then read post after post in AARs about how broken it is.



Stamb -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/28/2022 9:14:18 AM)

What is the reason that RAD units assigned to a corps HQ are not going to repair nearby hexes. I have corps HQ with 4 RAD units - 2 goes to map. Another corps has 3 units - 1 goes to map.
Damaged hexes are in 5 hexes range as well as repaired railway to continue a railway.

Super annoying [:@]



Beethoven1 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/28/2022 11:33:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

What is the reason that RAD units assigned to a corps HQ are not going to repair nearby hexes. I have corps HQ with 4 RAD units - 2 goes to map. Another corps has 3 units - 1 goes to map.
Damaged hexes are in 5 hexes range as well as repaired railway to continue a railway.

Super annoying [:@]


They can only repair hexes that are adjacent to a previously repaired hex. A previously repaired hex does NOT include either:

a) Another hex repaired by a RAD on the same turn. So you can't have 2 RADs repairing in a row.
b) Hexes repaired during your movement phase by a FBD. So you can't have RADs and FBDs both repairing the same line at the same time.

RADs also cannot repair hexes bordering an enemy unit.



Stamb -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/28/2022 11:53:09 AM)

Aha. Probably A is my case. Thanks.



SchDerGrosse -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/28/2022 7:18:12 PM)

How exactly does the current game handle captured men and equipment?

- I have faint memorioes from WitE1 that some of the captured men got converted to Hilfswillige, which are then used to substitute German manpower from the support elements in the ToE of German units. Is this still true?

- I can see it on the logistics screen that some (very meagre) amount of captured equipment is being shipped to Finnland every turn.

- Also, In WitE1 there used to be a rule that if enough captured equipment (like medium tanks) is gathered, and the given unit cannot fill up its ToE with "national" units, it will use these. Like certain SS divisions actually operated captured T34-s. Is it still in the game? If so, what are the conditions?

Am I missing anything else with regards to the use captured men/equipment? Its quite sad to see tons of Soviet weapons and other goodies just gathering dust in some pool back in Germnany.

Thanks again,



Stamb -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/28/2022 10:43:12 PM)

I have troubles understanding this picture from a manual

[image]https://i.imgur.com/YNFKyi4.png[/image]


We miss 113 SP rockets and 27927 rifle squads? Why there is "-" (minus) in front of rifle squads?

Same question is for the manpower column.

Why there is -678 and 307197?



FriedrichII -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/29/2022 9:21:27 AM)

As I am starting a new campaign I am thinking about the t1 move for army group north. Especially about the port Ventspils.

Normally I would use motorized infantry to capture the port on turn 1, but I would rather like more if I could isolate the port due to naval interdiction and use the mot. Inf. to widen the brigdehead over the Daugava river.

Because of that I did some tests with naval interdiction around Ventspils, but the Soviets can still transport troops out via Ventspils through naval transport, which is a bad thing, because there will be a pocket after I will have conquer Riga and Liepaja.

The naval interdiction had been around 35-40 near Ventspils and this has been not enough so that the Soviets can still evacuate troops via this port only losing sometimes a few troops while on transport. I did check this playing both side wirh me as human player at the same test match.

How can I close the evacuation route completely on turn 1 around Ventspils using naval air missions, or does this approach not work?
Thanks!



Jango32 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/29/2022 9:51:10 AM)

If the Ventspils area shows up as isolated after taking Riga and Liepaja, with naval patrol around Ventspils, it should prevent sea evacuation.



FriedrichII -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/29/2022 10:07:35 AM)

Thanks Jango32! I will try it again. Maybe I had been missing something or played it wrong. Do you know how much naval interdiction is necessary to get the port isolated?



loki100 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/29/2022 10:09:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FriedrichII

As I am starting a new campaign I am thinking about the t1 move for army group north. Especially about the port Ventspils.

Normally I would use motorized infantry to capture the port on turn 1, but I would rather like more if I could isolate the port due to naval interdiction and use the mot. Inf. to widen the brigdehead over the Daugava river.

Because of that I did some tests with naval interdiction around Ventspils, but the Soviets can still transport troops out via Ventspils through naval transport, which is a bad thing, because there will be a pocket after I will have conquer Riga and Liepaja.

The naval interdiction had been around 35-40 near Ventspils and this has been not enough so that the Soviets can still evacuate troops via this port only losing sometimes a few troops while on transport. I did check this playing both side wirh me as human player at the same test match.

How can I close the evacuation route completely on turn 1 around Ventspils using naval air missions, or does this approach not work?
Thanks!


don't mix up the impact of naval interdiction on causing isolation and the impact of naval interdiction on actual movement.

You trigger isolation by there being no sea route that is not covered by 2+ interdiction (so 2-0 but also feasibly something like 7-5 will do the job). That has an impact on morale and so on

naval movement can still go through such hexes, so in this case the Soviets can evacuate. They pay a price in terms of interdiction (triggering shipping and element losses) according to the absolute value of interdiction. So a #2 can trigger isolation but may not inflict very heavy losses. But in the 7-5 instance, the #7 will inflict murderous transport losses.

So the short answer, is you can't - but the more interdiction you have in place the more costly will be any attempt to exit that way



FriedrichII -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/29/2022 3:51:28 PM)

Thanks Loki for explaining the difference between isolation and evacuation possibility. That makes sense and helps understanding the t1 Ventspils problem.





loki100 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/29/2022 10:31:35 PM)

aye this is one of those things that became clear in WiTW. As the axis you had the air assets to contest either the allied resupply phase or the allied naval move phase but not both, so sort of got used to the idea of picking which of those to target in how you set up your naval patrol missions



Jango32 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/29/2022 11:00:00 PM)

[image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/898120096302641173/902098784014708756/unknown.png[/image]

Here's an example where there are simply not enough MPs for Soviet units to evacuate via the sea due to naval interdiction. They aren't isolated either from land.



Jango32 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/29/2022 11:21:05 PM)

Speaking of naval patrol, if you cut off Oranienbaum by land and if you run naval patrol around it, will that make the area isolated or will the Soviets still have a connection, despite Oranienbaum and Kronstadt being impassable?



Hardradi -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/30/2022 4:19:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

[image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/898120096302641173/902098784014708756/unknown.png[/image]

Here's an example where there are simply not enough MPs for Soviet units to evacuate via the sea due to naval interdiction. They aren't isolated either from land.



Yes, this is what I have seen as well. No one can get in and out of the port. The mouse over shows SHIPPING HEAVILY CONTESTED (as the Soviets).



Jango32 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/30/2022 11:59:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Speaking of naval patrol, if you cut off Oranienbaum by land and if you run naval patrol around it, will that make the area isolated or will the Soviets still have a connection, despite Oranienbaum and Kronstadt being impassable?


Never mind, I've decided to run tests myself via Stalingrad to Berlin for the sake of easiness. It is indeed possible to isolate Oranienbaum provided you generate enough interdiction in the hex west of Kronstadt and northwest of Oranienbaum.



FriedrichII -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/30/2022 5:20:08 PM)

I am wondering if leaders can increase their skills and if so how do I get notice if this has happened?
I checked the manual for that and only found that leaders can lose skill points if they are manually promoted.



Stamb -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/30/2022 5:23:04 PM)

There is some chance for that. I got political rating +1 for one of them during first few turns. But it is very rare. You can find this info in Logistics report under Leaders section.



loki100 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/30/2022 5:53:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

...


Yes, this is what I have seen as well. No one can get in and out of the port. The mouse over shows SHIPPING HEAVILY CONTESTED (as the Soviets).


sorry to repeat this but that is not the case, it just means that any actual unit movement in those hexes will take heavy losses,

you do have enough interdiction to stop supply and trigger isolation

the units may be unable to go onto ships if the port is damage or their transport load > available shipping in that zone



loki100 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/30/2022 5:55:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FriedrichII

I am wondering if leaders can increase their skills and if so how do I get notice if this has happened?
I checked the manual for that and only found that leaders can lose skill points if they are manually promoted.


you'll get a message that x has increased their infantry score by 1 (something like that), its not recorded as a promotion in the CR so you can't check back (apart from going over the turn by turn logistics logs). It keys off their rank, their current command and their current score - lower all those the more chance to get promoted



loki100 -> RE: Quick Questions Thread (1/30/2022 5:57:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Speaking of naval patrol, if you cut off Oranienbaum by land and if you run naval patrol around it, will that make the area isolated or will the Soviets still have a connection, despite Oranienbaum and Kronstadt being impassable?


Never mind, I've decided to run tests myself via Stalingrad to Berlin for the sake of easiness. It is indeed possible to isolate Oranienbaum provided you generate enough interdiction in the hex west of Kronstadt and northwest of Oranienbaum.


don't think you can, interdiction of the ferry hex Kronstadt-Leningrad might work. Remember you can cross an impassible hexside if you own both sides so the Soviets can pull supply overland



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