RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (Full Version)

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loki100 -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/25/2021 5:11:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub
...

The morale on your guards units should be 60 vs the german base 70. It's really not that big of a gap, and with a few victories, their morale can go even higher. You also won't have to wait long until the German NM drops to 65 in '43.




one reason I'm taking routs as a good outcome is to slow this process - I realise I am sacrificing the long term for the short term but I either more or less hold this line till April or its game over on the initiative switch. Heinrici's little bunch are in the 80s but then he does tend to win his battles.

Quick check and by eye something like 80% of my German infantry divisions have morale>70 (the exceptions are mostly the LW formations) so since I have decent supply the drop should be relatively slow.

Crudely the Soviets need to get a combat tempo and I have no interest in making it easy [;)]

But really this has been a re-enaction of WW1 since May 42. I was wading through multiple defensive lines and reserve reactions looking for an advantage really up to early Sept 42 when I pulled back.



Speedysteve -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/25/2021 6:54:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

Hi All,

Small update from a frustrated Soviet player right now....I feel our game has turned into WW1! [;)]

I didn't even contemplate rescuing the 2 cut off Rifle Corps. The enemy strength around them was just too strong and sustaining c.10:1 losses for a pointless attack is something I won't do anymore.

I say WW1 since the lines are relatively static with a well entrenched enemy in level 3 forts across the whole map. At this stage of the war I don't have the strength to penetrate most defences and with the NM difference being so vast I can rarely achieve even 2:1 advantage on raw CV which makes it pointless attacking since I know I'll just get decimated losing at a ratio of roughly 10:1 from recent experience. The irony is that due to [;)]Loki not really advancing in 1942 he's in an incredibly strong defensive position. His forces aren't spread thin. They're heavily entrenched, with reserves in a fully supplied and active rail network.

It will just be a SLOW gradual progress westwards taking 10 miles here or there until things 'even' out a bit more.

Here's an example of the area around Kursk. Even if I did push a unit back it would be pointless advancing into the hex since Axis reserves would then send my men reeling destroying too much for the limited successful attack to be worth it.



The morale on your guards units should be 60 vs the german base 70. It's really not that big of a gap, and with a few victories, their morale can go even higher. You also won't have to wait long until the German NM drops to 65 in '43.




Sure and agreed that Guards are delicious…..BUT my points above are relevant to this since it’s hard to get Guards units when I can’t succeed in many attacks due to facing Talos on defence across the front



Gam3r -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/27/2021 12:47:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve
I say WW1 since the lines are relatively static with a well entrenched enemy in level 3 forts across the whole map. At this stage of the war I don't have the strength to penetrate most defences and with the NM difference being so vast I can rarely achieve even 2:1 advantage on raw CV which makes it pointless attacking since I know I'll just get decimated losing at a ratio of roughly 10:1 from recent experience.


You stuck almost at the same line as i do, but driving Jubjub out of Voronezh



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/27/2021 11:18:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gam3r


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve
I say WW1 since the lines are relatively static with a well entrenched enemy in level 3 forts across the whole map. At this stage of the war I don't have the strength to penetrate most defences and with the NM difference being so vast I can rarely achieve even 2:1 advantage on raw CV which makes it pointless attacking since I know I'll just get decimated losing at a ratio of roughly 10:1 from recent experience.


You stuck almost at the same line as i do, but driving Jubjub out of Voronezh



@Speedysteve so you are just waiting on the NM change then? I take it that you are not attacking on how I am reading this.



Speedysteve -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/28/2021 6:36:27 AM)

Negative. The statement was getting at if the odds are only roughly 2:1 (raw CV) my chance of success is slim due to the above factors. It would be unwise to not attack at all. I'm just selective. Here's last turns attacks for example:

[image]local://upfiles/4211/AF05AC91CB1A4DC39C68A02E697E9BD3.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/28/2021 6:37:13 AM)

2:

[image]local://upfiles/4211/32D02BA9B8A14DC484316FAE3F2E69A1.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/29/2021 11:59:20 AM)

Well the Glory of 1943 is upon us!

This is the year when the Soviets can begin to do something tangible......this is due to a combination of factors such as NM changes, artillery and truck production increases and perhaps most importantly the ability to produce large numbers of war winning combat formations such as Rifle Corps, More Tank and Mech Corps, more Artillery, Rockets etc etc....you get the picture[;)]

I have been mass producing Rifle Divisions to meet the 1942 limit levels knowing that the limits of these formation significantly drop from 1943 onwards. As such I had a decent cadre (and still do in Reserve Box) to use as on field conversions to form Rifle Corps and attach Bde's as SU's to the Corps. I spent over 3 hours this turn on admin alone converting and forming stuff up costing me over 400 AP's.....

[image]local://upfiles/4211/35CB2CFBD8FF496D8BD7D2566E81F247.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/30/2021 12:59:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

Negative. The statement was getting at if the odds are only roughly 2:1 (raw CV) my chance of success is slim due to the above factors. It would be unwise to not attack at all. I'm just selective. Here's last turns attacks for example:




Had to make sure :) You are doing what I was hoping you were doing.



loki100 -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/30/2021 6:38:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

...

I have been mass producing Rifle Divisions to meet the 1942 limit levels knowing that the limits of these formation significantly drop from 1943 onwards. As such I had a decent cadre (and still do in Reserve Box) to use as on field conversions to form Rifle Corps and attach Bde's as SU's to the Corps. I spent over 3 hours this turn on admin alone converting and forming stuff up costing me over 400 AP's.....

...


something worth noting here. The Soviet player loses the ability to raise Rifle brigades (of different types) at the end of 1942 permanently. Certainly worth making sure you have these as they incredibly useful going forward as direct attachments or as emergency reinforcements (you def need to use them this way in Hungary).

you can always get more divisions if you need. Simply break apart a Rifle Corps and don't reform it, so its not correct that you lose the capacity to raise them



Speedysteve -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/30/2021 7:14:23 AM)

Yes I forgot to point out I also maxed the Rifle Bde production in time as well



Gam3r -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/30/2021 7:30:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

something worth noting here. The Soviet player loses the ability to raise Rifle brigades (of different types) at the end of 1942 permanently.



at the end of '43 maybe?

[image]local://upfiles/78197/EBBAE8B6620341478FDD4ACB2C4845EE.jpg[/image]



loki100 -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/30/2021 8:41:30 AM)

ah, the production chart must have changed since I last played the Soviets past this stage, that is more brigades than I recall being available going forward



Speedysteve -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/30/2021 10:27:55 AM)

The key thing to point out though is the Rifle Bde limit REDUCES in 1943 from 144 to 118 IIRC. I made sure to have 144 of the blighters around before 1943



loki100 -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/30/2021 10:46:13 AM)

yep, not for the first time, I don't know what I am talking about [;)] - a view clearly shared by one of my (once he was jet black) cats:

[image]local://upfiles/43256/CB6165588FD04D51B53636DD65B4DAB0.jpg[/image]

god knows why this isn't properly recorded in the manual



Speedysteve -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/30/2021 3:21:09 PM)

You don't know why the manual doesn't record that "Loki's cats think he's a nincompoop"?[;)][:'(]



loki100 -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/30/2021 3:59:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

You don't know why the manual doesn't record that "Loki's cats think he's a nincompoop"?[;)][:'(]


almost as if the writer edited out that sort of criticism?



Speedysteve -> RE: T80 - Verdun MkII (11/30/2021 4:16:38 PM)

Lol. I’d like to know who that person is to give him a proper talking to…oh wait



loki100 -> T83 ... More reaching the Volga than Verdun? (12/1/2021 10:55:02 AM)

T83 ... sort of mid-Jan 43

So worth a short report.

Last turn was blizzards so I took the chance to do a fairly large redeployment of two of the Pzr Armies to bring all 3 into the Kharkov-Kursk sector. My logic is these are the two cities most at risk and with them gone (plus the time bonuses), its feasible I could lose the initiative due to random Theatre VP.

One point, Steven ran his side of the turn (ie Sov/82) using the public patch, I did mine with the current beta one (main impact is this is designed to scale back a bit on the benefits of high experience artillery).

The Soviets did a number of attacks – mostly taking heavy losses.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9011/cteB6O.jpg[/image]

And the matching air combat, I had GS off so just my fighters got involved, still able to dominate till the VVS grinds down my morale and experience.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5403/ESTijV.jpg[/image]

The failed attacks are in the Byransk-Smolensk defensive area. At the moment, there I have stacks of 2-3 divisions in poor terrain and level 3 forts. It will breach under sustained pressure but clearly that would be costly.

Their success was near Kursk.

So as this turn was just snow I ran a massive recon operation behind that sector trying to work out if there were local reserves ... at a price of about 70 recon planes came back with a hint that it was just the front line.

Now, as before, I am trading hanging in for the summer against being able to do much in the summer. My tank pools are empty, but there are nice new things on the way – and I think its time to use the Tigers.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4168/YTFBY6.jpg[/image]

So 1,2, and 4 Pzr A struck, I could have gone deeper, even over-run an airbase stuffed with fighters (but I did attack suddenly exposed artillery and rocket divisions), but need to be cautious. Fresh SS PzrGr divisions have just disentrained and most of the mobile assets did no fighting, so there is a threat of something more next turn.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7389/3VTRTx.jpg[/image]

Only a 1 hex pocket, but potentially that will hurt if they can't be rescued

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5940/8cQ0UH.jpg[/image]

Even at the level of direct combat, that was pretty one sided

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8403/sUZuhO.jpg[/image]

This time I used the LW for GS, about 60% of my assets are on this sector, so while I took some losses, again the VVS was reminded who's the boss (at least at the moment).

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/434/vNwNa8.jpg[/image]

Total losses

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3121/EhoMeK.jpg[/image]

And since I am hoping for Theatre VP to ease the pressure, I certainly can't afford to absorb many more losses, I've been sending some formations off to do useful things. The heavy AA are good in the West as they count for pretty much every line.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7518/bWcSkU.jpg[/image]

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6350/8BicG5.jpg[/image]

Now its worth confessing here. From experience in a 1941 GC the German army probably reaches its peak at this stage. E-Hitler believes the Heer is crumbling, needs every reinforcement it can just to try and slow the Soviet offensive. He's just about to give me a massive manpower boost.

As it is, I'm struggling with staying within the army level CC limits and have powerful mobile assets sat having a nice rest.



Speedysteve -> T83...Doubtful E-Hitler....Kursk here I come....huzzah! (12/2/2021 10:36:44 AM)

Isn't it ironic that Herr Abwehr pops up only to talk about his 'glorious victories'[;)][:'(]

This 'skirmish' could turn into a nice little brawl and one I'm happy to take. This is the 1943 Soviet Army which can do something in return.

Despite the Axis recon it failed to detect 2 key reserve Armies in the area. 1 of these was Semyon Bogdanov's 46th Army, which had been at local Dacha's relaxing, reading Pravda and drinking Vodka, centred around of 4 x Mechanised Corps. The other is left hidden and un named since it didn't participate in my counter attacks this turn. With the local force disposition I have it was also relatively easy to mobilise additional forces to the area. This could be fun if Loki continues attacking....

So my response to the Axis thrust:

1.) My encircled forces easily broke through the weak Axis Motorised Division to the SE to temporary safety.

2.) Bogdanov's 46th Army got dressed, smashed some vodka then counter-attacked the southern arm of the Axis attack repulsing the 7th and 19th Panzer Divisions.

3.) Moskalenko commanded a mixed force of Tank Corps, Mechanised Corps and Rifle Corps to send the 14th Panzer Division reeling at the northern Axis arm.

4.) The rest of my forces in-between the Axis pincers moved slightly to the east to avoid any potential mass encirclement.


P.S. hope you like my artwork [;)]

[image]local://upfiles/4211/37DE62EB6B8A4FE3968A3BC06B91F943.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: T83...Doubtful E-Hitler....Kursk here I come....huzzah! (12/2/2021 10:39:20 AM)

More than happy to take this ratio of losses:

[image]local://upfiles/4211/A88C101094A44812BA14464C3375325B.jpg[/image]



loki100 -> RE: T83...Doubtful E-Hitler....Kursk here I come....huzzah! (12/2/2021 1:34:00 PM)

ahem

a rapid programme of eyesight tests are being put in place to improve the performance of my recon assets



Speedysteve -> RE: T83...Doubtful E-Hitler....Kursk here I come....huzzah! (12/2/2021 2:58:43 PM)

I've heard Zeiss are quite good at providing lenses. Check them out.....Free tip from your friendly Comrade Stalin.....



Aurelian -> RE: T83...Doubtful E-Hitler....Kursk here I come....huzzah! (12/2/2021 3:08:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

I've heard Zeiss are quite good at providing lenses. Check them out.....Free tip from your friendly Comrade Stalin.....


Only if they take the lens caps off..... OR, you could teach them the benefits of using penal battalions.



Speedysteve -> RE: T83...Doubtful E-Hitler....Kursk here I come....huzzah! (12/2/2021 3:26:56 PM)

Never heard of them….we’d never do that here in the free and liberal Soviet Union



loki100 -> T84 - lots of moving around (12/2/2021 8:17:02 PM)

So T84

as in the Stavka propaganda report above, there was indeed a Soviet attack - they even regained a hex somewhere near Leningrad.

But it wasn't quite the crushing blow the casual reader might assume.

So 2 prongs to the extending Axis offensive.

Struck back near Orel as they were weakly entrenched and had just attacked.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6287/5kJk04.jpg[/image]

here's the losses just after that set of attacks

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/520/XeB83d.jpg[/image]

Main attack, resealed the pocket and took back some ground - not too hold but any depth is welcome.


[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5295/TuvGHh.jpg[/image]

And losses to that point.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9879/TczU1E.jpg[/image]

Added in a secondary threat to their units south of Kharkov.

My, probably not very plausible, hope, is if they are reacting they are not doing whatever they had planned to be doing.

Clearly I can't sustain this but the loss ratio gives me some encouragement, ideally it has to lead to actual units destroyed in pockets. At the moment, a mobile running battle sort of suits me.



Speedysteve -> RE: T84 - lots of moving around (12/3/2021 6:07:23 PM)

So....the Soviet response....

First the positive.....more progress was made in the North. The immediate aim here is to re-open the double rail line to Leningrad. I'll take what I can get right now....

[image]local://upfiles/4211/1868A660A993447DB1396F341439458A.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: T84 - lots of moving around (12/3/2021 6:12:38 PM)

Down South not too much happened my end. 2 failed attacks nearer Kursk....lots of movement, bringing in more forces....it seemed pointless to try and rescue my surrounded men. A shame as 2 nice formations will be lost but if The Axis are going to put 1/3 of their entire Armoured forces to keep my men surrounded there isn't much I can do about that right now[;)]

[image]local://upfiles/4211/7778E1A53EB74FA9BF9DEA0663465224.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: T84 - lots of moving around (12/3/2021 6:42:49 PM)

Tbh Germans either do that or they see pockets broken in my experience.
The Soviets with admin movement can just bring enough assets once they're past the first turns to crak a one-unit thingie as long as they've some reserves around; OR even worse they counter encircle the German troops that performed the encirclment.



loki100 -> RE: T84 - lots of moving around (12/3/2021 9:38:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Tbh Germans either do that or they see pockets broken in my experience.
The Soviets with admin movement can just bring enough assets once they're past the first turns to crak a one-unit thingie as long as they've some reserves around; OR even worse they counter encircle the German troops that performed the encirclment.


not really my experience - depends on the circumstances. I can protect my stacks with GS, which, well set up, really makes a difference. Also here, the only realistic prize is the pocket, so all my effort goes into securing that.

wbere the front line is makes no real difference in the circumstancse of this game, so pushing deep gets me nowhere, staying shallow means I can generate these 2-3 corps pockets on a regular basis. That plus the combat losses is the best I can get.

But actually knowing how to set up GS is a real safety net



loki100 -> RE: T84 - lots of moving around (12/4/2021 2:43:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

Down South not too much happened my end. 2 failed attacks nearer Kursk....lots of movement, bringing in more forces....it seemed pointless to try and rescue my surrounded men. A shame as 2 nice formations will be lost but if The Axis are going to put 1/3 of their entire Armoured forces to keep my men surrounded there isn't much I can do about that right now[;)]

[image]local://upfiles/4211/7778E1A53EB74FA9BF9DEA0663465224.jpg[/image]


well just working through the turn and my feeling is I'll call that a win (in so far as that means anything). Have disrupted the Soviet build up on the Orel-Stalino line, inflicted a few losses, dumped some obsolete tanks [;)] and a small pocket - better than being slowly pushed back (which is happening elsewhere)



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