RE: T103 - Momentum is building and my 'Allies' finally do.....something (Full Version)

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loki100 -> RE: T103 - Momentum is building and my 'Allies' finally do.....something (1/4/2022 3:00:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iam5not8

only 14 tigers lost at the moment and more than 200 in pool.

@loki - do you keep them in reserve or for some specific purpose ?


the Soviets don't have much that can harm them at this stage, so you don't lose many (unless the entire formation is encircled). On the other hand, they are not much used across the TOEs so they build up. If I recall from my vs Soviet AI game, by 1944 I was losing more on a per turn basis and there are more units that can use them so that pool shrunk quite a lot.

In general, in Jan-March, I made a lot of use of the Pzrs, both to nail down sectors of the front and for army sized counter-strokes. They are now almost all out of the line in reserve clusters.

I don't want to give Steven an easy hit with a stack of Rifle Corps, I know I can take out an exposed Tank/Mech corps so my feeling is that by not using them (apart from as above - exactly when it suits me) they actually make him very cautious of exploitation. So my front line (west of Stalino) has a lot of Rumanians, he has to attack them, I can repair them, sat between 3 divisional stacks of German infantry ... and my Pzrs tucked back.



M60A3TTS -> RE: T103 - Momentum is building and my 'Allies' finally do.....something (1/4/2022 4:04:09 PM)

The VVS could be organized better.

The disparity in experience really won't lighten up until 1944, so while a reorganization won't fix lopsided losses, that really isn't the objective in 1943.

The VVS should be organized to focus air support along the major routes of attack by ground forces. Too many air armies here have planes and perhaps a third of them could be stripped bare.

There are too many fighter units. I'd disband the 30-lowest in experience among the non-guards regiments. It's rather difficult to sustain operations when so many formations are in need of planes combined with battlefield loss rates. Now that the unit count is like 34, compared to the previous 20 you aren't going to be losing any real capability by removing these 30 or so units.




Speedysteve -> RE: T103 - Momentum is building and my 'Allies' finally do.....something (1/4/2022 4:11:10 PM)

Yes apparently those 14 Tigers were all lost when the drivers consumed a few too many Schnapps.....I just don't understand how my AT rifles don't penetrate them.....

As Loki and I have discussed in e-mail the discrepancy between Tank quality is probably at it's biggest right now (for me vs Axis).....If you look at it I'm running a slightly tweaked 1941 T-34 version vs vastly better Germany Armour:

Pz-IVh
Tiger
Panther D
Ferdinand
Nashorn
Stug IIIg


[image]local://upfiles/4211/CB39393247624FBCA91AA1FE5FA07F44.jpg[/image]



Iam5not8 -> RE: T103 - Momentum is building and my 'Allies' finally do.....something (1/6/2022 4:40:31 PM)

I agree, 1943 is not the best "armor" year for the SOV.
The T34 just have the 76mm gun, need to wait for 1944.
But the SOV can spare 300 of those per week. (I read somewhere, but can't find the reference right now, that a T34 lifetime was 2/3 weeks).
The 76 AT gun has a quite small production at 50 a week.
the 45 AT gun that is so helpfull in 1941/42 begins to be outdated.

IL2 used in numbers on selected areas can be very helpfull, With more than 200 per week, they can be used intensively.



Speedysteve -> RE: T106 - the slugfest continues (1/11/2022 4:48:57 PM)

Hi All,

We've now reached July 1943 and the slugfest continues. Most of the combat and movement is in the South. Due to the terrain it's tough going in the Centre and North when facing 1-3 German Infantry Divisions in level 3 forts.

Loki launched a small local counter attack near Kursk at the end of June (prophetic) which took 40 miles of territory. I did retake those miles in response and forced 2 x Panzer Divisions and the Slovak Mobile Division in retreat. The enemy left 180 AFV's on the battlefield.....the fighting has been intense and costly...we have no chance but to bull forward and grind the Axis down. Slowly but surely we are taking ground in the South.....

[image]local://upfiles/4211/E6FBCB73FCA342718E619A89B3F27BB5.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: T106 - the slugfest continues (1/11/2022 4:57:03 PM)

It was especially fun to the east and south-east of Kharkov.

11th Guards Army launched an attack to send a German and Luftwaffe Division in retreat in Light Woods only 20 miles form Kharkov. The woods were then occupied by 3 fresh Rifle Corps of the 8th Guards Army.

To the South of this Badanov's Mech Corps and Rybalko's Tank Corps routed some Hungarian and Romanian troops defending the Woods east of the Donets. Depending on the Axis response I have informed Comrade Stalin that I expect to liberate Kharkov, soon, and that the War will be over by September! Huzzah......(drinks 15th shot of Vodka to increase the delusion.....)

[image]local://upfiles/4211/D4154BF4EF0A4886A484C5CE773B8EAE.jpg[/image]



Speedysteve -> RE: T106 - the slugfest continues (1/11/2022 5:00:09 PM)

Losses are still very high BUT the Axis can't afford a 1:3 AFV loss ratio and it's nice I took out some of their newest Cats (losses are for both the Axis turn and my response):

[image]local://upfiles/4211/0A808977FF474ED8B022192089F92C04.jpg[/image]



loki100 -> T107, Initiative and VP (1/11/2022 8:05:10 PM)

T107 – 4 July 1943

Another point worth a post. Steven's material above covers the on map situation. On the northern half I'm sticking to my forts in poor terrain, it'll go in the end but not easily. The south is a bit more violent – I daren't risk a gamble on a pocket, but happy to hit a sector hard if I can – even at a cost of risking counter-attacks.

Main thing now is I've lost the initiative. This is due to the date not to losses, so a few bits worth discussing. First, at a big level the OOBs remain static but I'm still trashing the VVS on a regular basis. Also the Red Army is taking fairly heavy losses.

As indicated, its caviar, schnapps and bratwurst all around for the Heer.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2629/mfwt4h.jpg[/image]

E-Adolf got suspicious when he remembered I'd never reached Stalingrad so he's stopped my replacements. NA went on T103, so a little delayed – but I'm now getting some nice reinforcements as a result.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1936/Bcyu5v.jpg[/image]

So the VP. The Soviets will now struggle for auto-wins till they access the 30 VP cities on my side of the 1941 border. There's just not enough in the Soviet Union to get them over those thresholds.

Which makes the end 1944 test vs the HWM worth an analysis. Lets assume nothing dramatic happens in the Theaters (though I am sending bits and pieces and they are gaining from my relatively low losses on map), then the Soviets need +196. If I assume they get all the +6 and that Helsinki is worth 36, then by the time they have pushed me out of the Soviet Union they will have 170 for cities and 66 for time bonus, so 236 (or 40 over). In truth I don't see a way to keep them under the HWM unless I really cost them time bonus. Even then the 60 for Rumania leaves them easily over the limit.

I think I can keep Smolensk and Kiev to deny the time gains, if I can keep the Dnepr bend in play til October then that would make a real difference. Far too early to make any comments about the 1944 cities but I assume that Sevastopol will fall easily – I'd trade that for a controlled retreat into Moldavia etc.

There are also large fortified belts awaiting them on key sectors. I've worked out that these need nearby pri 4 depots and then they build surprisingly rapidly.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7840/fjxCgk.jpg[/image]

Northern half the map, when 16 and 18A crack, they will have to run some distance.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7158/f8e6lh.jpg[/image]

Ukraine, Kharkov is clearly lost, in the N Ukraine I then have a lot of space I can trade off, not so in the southern sector.

PzrA 2 just been withdrawn but I'd planned for that.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4640/G8ZbkV.jpg[/image]

Manpower pools are healthy, being very cynical with the Rumanians,using them to hold gaps where I'm sure the Soviets won't dare exploit or to protect my front lines. Basically I can usually repair any losses and in the end I have a clear end date to their use. Being more protective of the Hungarians.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2461/q2XcQV.jpg[/image]

Tank situation is improving. In part off improved production, that I am winning any in-battle trades but also am keeping a lot of the armoured units out of the line – crudely I want the Soviets to be cautious about exploitation.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7605/ITbDQ2.jpg[/image]



Rosencrantus -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/11/2022 9:34:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I assume that Sevastopol will fall easily – I'd trade that for a controlled retreat into Moldavia etc.




What are your thoughts making a level 4 fort in Sevastopol? I've really fortified my crimea in my StB game. I was thinking that you can really have some fun at sevastopol and the chokepoints. If you can do that as you'll force the soviets to divert some heavy forces to retake the area. the airbase on Sevastopol can stop soviet naval interdiction, meaning you might be able to lose/stall the siege without any units surrendering.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/11/2022 10:45:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I assume that Sevastopol will fall easily – I'd trade that for a controlled retreat into Moldavia etc.




What are your thoughts making a level 4 fort in Sevastopol? I've really fortified my crimea in my StB game. I was thinking that you can really have some fun at sevastopol and the chokepoints. If you can do that as you'll force the soviets to divert some heavy forces to retake the area. the airbase on Sevastopol can stop soviet naval interdiction, meaning you might be able to lose/stall the siege without any units surrendering.


The whole Crimea can be bypassed. I know I would if I was a Soviet Player.



Rosencrantus -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/12/2022 3:48:23 AM)

It's 30-36 VPs though, you don't think it's worth it?



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/12/2022 3:51:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

It's 30-36 VPs though, you don't think it's worth it?


If there is a large German force in the Crimea I would leave it and keep going West.



Rosencrantus -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/12/2022 4:32:44 AM)

Well if the germans leave a force large enough for the Soviets to bypass it completely, they are probably getting hurt pretty bad on the main front. There's a sweet spot for the Germans to hit between stalling the Soviets and a large force.



loki100 -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/12/2022 9:03:50 AM)

its a tricky choice, the Soviets can't write off 30/36 VP, but I think they can take it with a minimal effort, they must have stuff still east of Kerch and a couple of armies on a rotating attack will clear the city over a few turns.

the best I can do, practically, is 2 divisions and a HQ, plus SUs.

And that can't hold against a serious attack. To remove any time bonus I somehow need to hold it to T154 (so a mere 47 turns) and that is just not going to happen.

Going by my HWM workings, I need to keep the Soviets under 24 bonus pts, assuming I can cling to the Rumanian VP cities. I worked out vs AI how to do that, and actually keep eastern Rumania under control too at the point of Rumanian surrnder - thats good for all sorts of reasons, not least the less of the Rumanian rail net that they get undamaged, the worse their problems in Hungary become (& unless the Soviet player knows the logistics system, Hungary is going to be grim in any case).

I don't think I can push them under 24, the Dneipr bend will be gone by October and then Helsinki (a guarenteed +6) plus Talinin and Pskov (that I somehow need to hold into late Summer 1944) remove that test. There's no point having fantasiess of holding onto any VP locations east of the 1941 start line by 1 Jan 1945.

This is why I'd never play without the VP system, it adds a rich layer to the game in terms of analysis and setting the tempo.

In this case, I don't think I can deny the 36 VP unless I seriously stall the Soviets east of Dnepropetrovsk, so its then a judgement, are 2 good German divisions better on the Bug/Dnestr or locked up in a secondary fortress? I know I get them back if the city falls (unless I've already lost Constanta) so its a case of best use over the next 40+ turns.





Jango32 -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/12/2022 9:35:20 AM)

I don't think the Soviets have to worry that much about taking the VPs. Those are guaranteed to fall sooner or later. They just need to remove more and more Axis forces from the equation, at which point they'll take the VPs without much fuss. If the Axis preemptively retreat to more favourable defensive locations, then the VPs fall anyway.



loki100 -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 8:14:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

I don't think the Soviets have to worry that much about taking the VPs. Those are guaranteed to fall sooner or later. They just need to remove more and more Axis forces from the equation, at which point they'll take the VPs without much fuss. If the Axis preemptively retreat to more favourable defensive locations, then the VPs fall anyway.


I agree, they have a game year (pretty much to take Sevastopol) so its at their leisure.

From experience, I can hold a fair bit over 1943 but come 1944 its a matter of retreating, I'll need to use the PGr divisions just to hold the line in places which makes anything but the most limited of counter-attacks off the menu.

So, assuming no massive collapse, I can mostly avoid outright lost divisions for some time, sort of control my retreat and that puts the auto-win values out of reach till places like Budapest start to fall. Vs the Axis AI I would have got a win in April 45 that way as I had all the 30 VP locations - in that game I took Berlin at the end of March so won on that rule.

So if auto-win is probably out of reach (before 1945) and vs HWM utterly implausible then we are looking at the Berlin tests and a game that may well go into 1945 ... which is rather good and far better than I thought I was looking at in June 42.



Speedysteve -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 12:09:15 PM)

I agree. I think this will go into 1945. I also think (from my perspective of the Axis forces I’ve faced in 42/43) that a WW1 defence set up in 1942, with strong level 3 forts, forces not strung out in some wild gamble to the east, close to a fully restored supply network is the way to go for Axis. I naturally haven’t tested that just based on what I’ve had to face. Either that or I’m just a **** player and massively underperforming vs what I’m facing ;-)

Caveat = if Axis are close to an auto victory then no need to go WW1 defence ;-)



loki100 -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 1:16:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

I agree. I think this will go into 1945. I also think (from my perspective of the Axis forces I’ve faced in 42/43) that a WW1 defence set up in 1942, with strong level 3 forts, forces not strung out in some wild gamble to the east, close to a fully restored supply network is the way to go for Axis. I naturally haven’t tested that just based on what I’ve had to face. Either that or I’m just a **** player and massively underperforming vs what I’m facing ;-)

Caveat = if Axis are close to an auto victory then no need to go WW1 defence ;-)


This is why I keep on arguing that there is no substitute for playing the game as designed - ie its not some T1-12 thing to bail from if the axis don't already have an auto win. The transition points can be partly tested in Stal-Berlin but neither side is going to enter Nov 42 where the historical war was.

Here, I'm now looking at a situation where maybe 30-40 more points would make the HWM test more important, still unlikely to get a win there but its something that imposes the need to take risks on the Soviets.

This is now my fourth GC going into the late mid-game (2 Soviet, 1 Axis) and it gives me a framework to judge trends (& of course get them wrong). I've got a pretty good idea when the German army is going to start falling apart so I'm trying to get as much out of it now as I can.

its also why I didn't suggest an end in Spring 42 despite this sort of analysis

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I see you two are still bashing each other from the beginning of release ;-P Will see what rabbit Loki pulls out of the hat here in a few turns of how 42' may show what the year has in store. But I have my hypothesis already. ...


the game is far less linear than WiTE1

now given I didn't get those VPs (& not for lack of trying), I do have another, different, advantage. The northern half of the front is locked down, I doubt you have sufficient first rate assets to really push there and in the Ukraine (do hope I'm right on this). In the south, you can't play with my Pzrs in the open so while you could cut open gaps and exploit, there would be a price to pay.

As you say, I'm sat on a first rate logistics infrastructure ... now if E-Adolf would get on with those wonder weapons we'll be in Moscow by 1944 ..

Roger



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 2:28:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

I agree. I think this will go into 1945. I also think (from my perspective of the Axis forces I’ve faced in 42/43) that a WW1 defence set up in 1942, with strong level 3 forts, forces not strung out in some wild gamble to the east, close to a fully restored supply network is the way to go for Axis. I naturally haven’t tested that just based on what I’ve had to face. Either that or I’m just a **** player and massively underperforming vs what I’m facing ;-)

Caveat = if Axis are close to an auto victory then no need to go WW1 defence ;-)


This is why I keep on arguing that there is no substitute for playing the game as designed - ie its not some T1-12 thing to bail from if the axis don't already have an auto win. The transition points can be partly tested in Stal-Berlin but neither side is going to enter Nov 42 where the historical war was.

Here, I'm now looking at a situation where maybe 30-40 more points would make the HWM test more important, still unlikely to get a win there but its something that imposes the need to take risks on the Soviets.

This is now my fourth GC going into the late mid-game (2 Soviet, 1 Axis) and it gives me a framework to judge trends (& of course get them wrong). I've got a pretty good idea when the German army is going to start falling apart so I'm trying to get as much out of it now as I can.

its also why I didn't suggest an end in Spring 42 despite this sort of analysis

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I see you two are still bashing each other from the beginning of release ;-P Will see what rabbit Loki pulls out of the hat here in a few turns of how 42' may show what the year has in store. But I have my hypothesis already. ...


the game is far less linear than WiTE1

now given I didn't get those VPs (& not for lack of trying), I do have another, different, advantage. The northern half of the front is locked down, I doubt you have sufficient first rate assets to really push there and in the Ukraine (do hope I'm right on this). In the south, you can't play with my Pzrs in the open so while you could cut open gaps and exploit, there would be a price to pay.

As you say, I'm sat on a first rate logistics infrastructure ... now if E-Adolf would get on with those wonder weapons we'll be in Moscow by 1944 ..

Roger


The whole game is scripted(less scripted when playing with full control of TB). Thus, WITE2 it is just as linear (I give you your words, "I've got a pretty good idea when the German army is going to start falling apart so I'm trying to get as much out of it now as I can" There is a deviation but that deviation is what sits in front of the monitor.




loki100 -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 3:07:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
...

The whole game is scripted(less scripted when playing with full control of TB). Thus, WITE2 it is just as linear (I give you your words, "I've got a pretty good idea when the German army is going to start falling apart so I'm trying to get as much out of it now as I can" There is a deviation but that deviation is what sits in front of the monitor.




well I'm sure you'll forgive me for not being convinced by your statement, at the end of the day you have no experience of this phase of the game (with either side).

yes of course I'm heading for trouble as the NM dips, but I've managed to, for the moment, turn around what you'd decided was resolved ('I have my hypothesis already') to the point where its looking like the decision point falls into 1945. Now it could slip again, certainly would if I got overconfident or managed to trash a core of my armoured formations in a mistake. So the shape of tha trouble is up for grabs

And that is one huge reversal, and not something that was really feasible in WiTE1? Now till I'd played my AI game to 1945 I was pretty convinced where I sat in early 1942 was disastrous - I still think it was pretty dire. But I've had some of the moving parts go against me and slotted others into place to compensate.



Speedysteve -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 3:23:06 PM)

Plus you’ve had an incompetent opponent according to some[;)] Uncle Joe has even threatened to limit my vodka rations!



Speedysteve -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 3:24:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

I agree. I think this will go into 1945. I also think (from my perspective of the Axis forces I’ve faced in 42/43) that a WW1 defence set up in 1942, with strong level 3 forts, forces not strung out in some wild gamble to the east, close to a fully restored supply network is the way to go for Axis. I naturally haven’t tested that just based on what I’ve had to face. Either that or I’m just a **** player and massively underperforming vs what I’m facing ;-)

Caveat = if Axis are close to an auto victory then no need to go WW1 defence ;-)


This is why I keep on arguing that there is no substitute for playing the game as designed - ie its not some T1-12 thing to bail from if the axis don't already have an auto win. The transition points can be partly tested in Stal-Berlin but neither side is going to enter Nov 42 where the historical war was.

Here, I'm now looking at a situation where maybe 30-40 more points would make the HWM test more important, still unlikely to get a win there but its something that imposes the need to take risks on the Soviets.

This is now my fourth GC going into the late mid-game (2 Soviet, 1 Axis) and it gives me a framework to judge trends (& of course get them wrong). I've got a pretty good idea when the German army is going to start falling apart so I'm trying to get as much out of it now as I can.

its also why I didn't suggest an end in Spring 42 despite this sort of analysis

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I see you two are still bashing each other from the beginning of release ;-P Will see what rabbit Loki pulls out of the hat here in a few turns of how 42' may show what the year has in store. But I have my hypothesis already. ...


the game is far less linear than WiTE1

now given I didn't get those VPs (& not for lack of trying), I do have another, different, advantage. The northern half of the front is locked down, I doubt you have sufficient first rate assets to really push there and in the Ukraine (do hope I'm right on this). In the south, you can't play with my Pzrs in the open so while you could cut open gaps and exploit, there would be a price to pay.

As you say, I'm sat on a first rate logistics infrastructure ... now if E-Adolf would get on with those wonder weapons we'll be in Moscow by 1944 ..

Roger


The whole game is scripted(less scripted when playing with full control of TB). Thus, WITE2 it is just as linear (I give you your words, "I've got a pretty good idea when the German army is going to start falling apart so I'm trying to get as much out of it now as I can" There is a deviation but that deviation is what sits in front of the monitor.




If I’d have known it was scripted I would have just sat back and let the AI save me weeks of my life playing. Darn it



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 6:30:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
...

The whole game is scripted(less scripted when playing with full control of TB). Thus, WITE2 it is just as linear (I give you your words, "I've got a pretty good idea when the German army is going to start falling apart so I'm trying to get as much out of it now as I can" There is a deviation but that deviation is what sits in front of the monitor.




well I'm sure you'll forgive me for not being convinced by your statement, at the end of the day you have no experience of this phase of the game (with either side).

yes of course I'm heading for trouble as the NM dips, but I've managed to, for the moment, turn around what you'd decided was resolved ('I have my hypothesis already') to the point where its looking like the decision point falls into 1945. Now it could slip again, certainly would if I got overconfident or managed to trash a core of my armoured formations in a mistake. So the shape of tha trouble is up for grabs

And that is one huge reversal, and not something that was really feasible in WiTE1? Now till I'd played my AI game to 1945 I was pretty convinced where I sat in early 1942 was disastrous - I still think it was pretty dire. But I've had some of the moving parts go against me and slotted others into place to compensate.


You have "NO CLUE" what I have experience with or not. I may not have written items on this forum late game, which you are using as proof of no experience, but I most sure-able do have experience late game on BOTH sides. It was a shot in the dark by you to downplay me and it is TOTALLY WRONG as usual. As for convincing you I care not, it really isn't for you anyway and as always I will be proven correct later down the road.






HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 6:37:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

I agree. I think this will go into 1945. I also think (from my perspective of the Axis forces I’ve faced in 42/43) that a WW1 defence set up in 1942, with strong level 3 forts, forces not strung out in some wild gamble to the east, close to a fully restored supply network is the way to go for Axis. I naturally haven’t tested that just based on what I’ve had to face. Either that or I’m just a **** player and massively underperforming vs what I’m facing ;-)

Caveat = if Axis are close to an auto victory then no need to go WW1 defence ;-)


This is why I keep on arguing that there is no substitute for playing the game as designed - ie its not some T1-12 thing to bail from if the axis don't already have an auto win. The transition points can be partly tested in Stal-Berlin but neither side is going to enter Nov 42 where the historical war was.

Here, I'm now looking at a situation where maybe 30-40 more points would make the HWM test more important, still unlikely to get a win there but its something that imposes the need to take risks on the Soviets.

This is now my fourth GC going into the late mid-game (2 Soviet, 1 Axis) and it gives me a framework to judge trends (& of course get them wrong). I've got a pretty good idea when the German army is going to start falling apart so I'm trying to get as much out of it now as I can.

its also why I didn't suggest an end in Spring 42 despite this sort of analysis

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I see you two are still bashing each other from the beginning of release ;-P Will see what rabbit Loki pulls out of the hat here in a few turns of how 42' may show what the year has in store. But I have my hypothesis already. ...


the game is far less linear than WiTE1

now given I didn't get those VPs (& not for lack of trying), I do have another, different, advantage. The northern half of the front is locked down, I doubt you have sufficient first rate assets to really push there and in the Ukraine (do hope I'm right on this). In the south, you can't play with my Pzrs in the open so while you could cut open gaps and exploit, there would be a price to pay.

As you say, I'm sat on a first rate logistics infrastructure ... now if E-Adolf would get on with those wonder weapons we'll be in Moscow by 1944 ..

Roger


The whole game is scripted(less scripted when playing with full control of TB). Thus, WITE2 it is just as linear (I give you your words, "I've got a pretty good idea when the German army is going to start falling apart so I'm trying to get as much out of it now as I can" There is a deviation but that deviation is what sits in front of the monitor.




If I’d have known it was scripted I would have just sat back and let the AI save me weeks of my life playing. Darn it


Are you playing the AI? No, you are not. At least that is what this AAR is supposed to be showing. OMG wake up people. What is scripted are the reinforcements. Right? Yes. Thus every game has the same scripted scenario played out (unless using full TB control) and the only deviation are the people playing the sides. So the stage is set for a scripted game using that reinforcements schedule. Sheesh, I would think you would know that :(



loki100 -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 6:42:26 PM)

..



loki100 -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 6:47:17 PM)



can I strongly suggest

a) calm down, this is not your AAR. this sort of comment really is on the border of acceptable

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

You have "NO CLUE" what I have experience with or not. ... It was a shot in the dark by you to downplay me and it is TOTALLY WRONG as usual.



b) I personally would never make a claim like

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

as always I will be proven correct later down the road.



really? You are never wrong in your analysis of a game this complex? I make innumerable errors of interpretation in terms of cause/effect, I even misremember rules some of the time. You are vastly overclaiming, you have no experience of this stage of the game MP (& by your own claims, never play vs AI)


I mean, yes, since I don't like to play with TB control, I know that the reinforcements and NM are mostly hard wired, that still leaves a huge amount of player agency

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

...
Are you playing the AI? No, you are not. At least that is what this AAR is supposed to be showing. OMG wake up people. What is scripted are the reinforcements. Right? Yes. Thus every game has the same scripted scenario played out (unless using full TB control) and the only deviation are the people playing the sides. So the stage is set for a scripted game using that reinforcements schedule. Sheesh, I would think you would know that :(


and, as ever, vs AI games are completely valid




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 6:51:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

can I strongly suggest

a) calm down, this is not your AAR
b) I personally would never make a claim like

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

as always I will be proven correct later down the road.



really? You are never wrong in your analysis of a game this complex? I make innumerable errors of interpretation in terms of cause/effect, I even misremember rules some of the time


I am not wrong on what I said. I do admit when I am wrong but not on that one. It will play out.

Your AAR or not will comment to your accusation that I had no experience.





loki100 -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 6:56:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

can I strongly suggest

a) calm down, this is not your AAR
b) I personally would never make a claim like

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

as always I will be proven correct later down the road.



really? You are never wrong in your analysis of a game this complex? I make innumerable errors of interpretation in terms of cause/effect, I even misremember rules some of the time


I am not wrong on what I said. I do admit when I am wrong but not on that one. It will play out.

Your AAR or not will comment to your accusation that I had no experience.



ok, you have an insight I'm lacking. Fine, describe it, show why my view this game is heading for a 1945 end is so clearly wrong. I can't see it, unless I do something catastrophic, Steven can't get near the auto-win pts till April(I know this from playing out full 1941 GC as the Soviets - that target is out of reach till you collect Budapest. Vienna etc)

this is an AAR, since the game play is rather mired at the moment, a well informed discussion of that position in terms of the VP system is very useful



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 6:56:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100



can I strongly suggest

a) calm down, this is not your AAR. this sort of comment really is on the border of acceptable




So you can take this to another thread and link it if you like. But when you "blatantly" lie to the forum in your AAR that I have no experience in this thread then that IS lying and will comment.



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: T107, Initiative and VP (1/13/2022 10:37:54 PM)

Guys, have some "Peace and Love" please!!! The two of you are amongst the most valued posters on this forum - it really doesn't do the game's community any favours to have you at each other's throats. Like my gran used to say - if you've got nothing nice to say say nothing at all.

I think the idea of the game being scripted is an interesting one - the way I see it is that (with the VP system in place) any game that goes into 44/45 is going to feel 'scripted'. As any major departure from the historical 'script' will result in a sudden death victory for one side or the other. So if you have two roughly equal players the tide will inevitably turn against the Axis in late 42/1943. For me at least if that is happening that is not a negative thing about the game being 'scripted' but a positive thing that the game is reflecting the historical reality???

As far as I can tell from the AARs that have been posted if there is a large enough gap in player ability the game will go 'off script' and will end either by sudden death or by resignation.



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