RE: What To Do With Russia

RE: What To Do With Russia (Full Version)

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Harrybanana -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/25/2021 3:07:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: battlevonwar sveint, what lecture? People can defend Russia, the players all agree that the strategy I put out is a viable defense of Russia rather than altering this game for the 10th time. There you go... in plain terms(you used one like it yourself vs me) [:D] Game has been out long enough now it's time to stop coveting the strategies and tactics that work and openly share. I have had people ragequit over not being able to defend Russia and they don't know why or how. Sad... Batlevonwar, I am not sure who the "players" are that "all agree" that the strategy you put out is a viable defence of Russia; but they do not include myself, Sveint or Flavius. All three of us believe that the Axis are too strong. I agree with you that the more skilled player will win most games regardless of which side he plays. But with two good equally skilled players the Axis will win almost every time regardless of what strategy the Allies player uses. I would be happy to play you and you can use your strategy if you wish. EDIT: Though in fairness to your argument, I do play with House Rules that the French cannot move their colonial troops and the British can't move the WDF out of the Middle East until Italy is an Axis Ally.

stjeand -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/25/2021 6:15:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: battlevonwar stjeand,(we all shared this with Alvaro over 10-15 Games over the Winter with AARs and games vs him) I played 3 games with this strategy and the Axis lost 2 out of 3. They won a technical victory in the 3rd. Tactics have changed favoring the Axis more now and would make your point on defending Russia more valid than ever. The Axis can lose tons of equipment in France/and elsewhere. That's how you get the balance to leave the base game alone. It's the skill which is the determining factor not the game at this point on whether Russia can defend itself. Skill dictates she can if the Axis are cut by 25%-35% in Manpower/Oil/Industry by 1941. Really I think it's safer to raid the hell out of England at the cost of your oil reserves as these are the prime years for it and only years but invading her I am not sure you will come out ahead with this. USA will take awhile with the new rules to retake England so I would have to see... Most of the players now don't really defend France though as they play it like they play all vanilla Hexagon Grand Strat WW2 Games. Russia is quite strong! But if you kill 100 MP 60 Air Steps in the Fall of France you really get Smooshed like a VW Beetle vs a King Tiger. The game is I'm afraid rewarding for the offensive Allies(they have more production manpower) any way you line up taking more German/Italian Manpower you end up better off. While what your strategy is a viable option...it is not a "defense" of Russia...more an attempted quick defeat of Germany. If Germany fails to take France the game is over, plain and simple. I would rather have a fun game then make up a strategy that was historically impossible and try to end the game in less than a year. I have done this strategy and can tell you 8 out of 10 games Germany lost because they could not take over France. Is that fun? Maybe for some...but not me so I won't play it. You go right ahead and play this way...that is fine. The rest of us will try to get the kinks worked out rather than create strategies that should be impossible but the game engine lets them. Have you built 4 paratroopers with the French / UK and dropped them on all the open cities in Germany during 1940? That is fun. How about just invade Italy early and knock them out of the game in 1940 while Germany is busy in France? That would be fun too... Just because a game lets you do something does not mean you should. There are bugs and there are balancing issues that need to be ironed out. The game should be fun for both sides...otherwise no one will play. At this moment in time the consensus is that either the Axis is too strong or Russia is too weak to keep the game within some historical bounds. No one is saying it is a HUGE act to balance this. Perhaps it is just changing the rail repair to be a little slower to simulate more accurately the supply issues in Russia. That is why we test and why we play. Could Germany have beaten Russia in reality? Many say the could have but they kept changing targets so they were bound to fail. Other say it would have been impossible as they were too big to conquer. Could France and England have stopped Germany in France? Most say no but maybe it was possible. Could England have built 3 armored corps and dumped them in France to stop Germany? Nope. That was not possible. I don't believe they were able to build 3 within a 5 year period of the war...But guess what...the game lets you. Honestly I want the game to be fun just and a little closer to history...

ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/26/2021 8:14:27 AM)
Three logistics branches for land / air / sea is a good idea.

ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/26/2021 9:53:28 PM)
Which year is the most problematic for a Barbarossa in 1941? Is it 1941 or 1942? I am under the impression this is 1942.

canuckgamer -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/27/2021 4:50:42 AM)
Stjeand, I think you nailed it: Honestly I want the game to be fun just and a little closer to history... We are getting near the end of our first PBEM game. It is November 44 and the Axis still hold Moscow, the Caucasus (all the oil fields) and Paris. There is a lone Russian army in Stalingrad but it is surrounded so will probably fall soon. Italy is no where near to surrender so it looks like an Axis victory. We will probably wait for next patch to see if there are any changes or fixes before starting another game.

stjeand -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/27/2021 11:21:44 AM)
Harry and I are doing our first test... 1) We changed rail repair to 2...though I think that may still not be enough IF 1942 if the most troublesome for Russia...but we will see. 2) Fixed a UK bug were they were getting to many PP from 1942 on... I still think that Russia needs more throw away troops for slowing the Axis. I think the issue is going to be around German 1942. Historically the Germans got there. THEN they refocused their main efforts south, so Moscow held. IF they keep them focused on Moscow it would have fallen most likely. The issue will be hoping they can not go to much further but won't be sure until we test. What has to happen now is the Allies have to invade somewhere to keep redirect the Germans... That is not historical. But we shall see. IF the Germans can not get to the gates of Moscow in 41...Odds are they can in 42 if not past. The question will be EVEN if they get past can the Russias hold them until 43. At that time things should start to swing back with Africa and Italy and on the Russian Front.

Flaviusx -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/27/2021 12:33:21 PM)
It is in fact highly unlikely Germany could've taken out Moscow in 42. The area was packed with the bulk of Soviet reserves -- Stalin was expecting an attack here not south -- and the area was deeply fortified. It would have been Kursk but a year earlier.

ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/27/2021 5:02:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Flaviusx It is in fact highly unlikely Germany could've taken out Moscow in 42. The area was packed with the bulk of Soviet reserves -- Stalin was expecting an attack here not south -- and the area was deeply fortified. It would have been Kursk but a year earlier. +1 but the player has also to decide where to put his reserves.

sveint -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/27/2021 5:29:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ncc1701e +1 but the player has also to decide where to put his reserves. Reserves, hah! Nice joke.

ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/27/2021 5:33:36 PM)
Yes - at 30% experience, they are toasted. The main problem is that they need to be destroyed to gain experience. And when they gain experience, this is too late.

ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/27/2021 5:53:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stjeand 2) Fixed a UK bug were they were getting to many PP from 1942 on... Is it what you have reported here? Or something else? https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5078910

battlevonwar -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/28/2021 1:57:59 AM)
Historical accuracy but the French and BEF were out of place and really an army moves more like a serpent with the a good chop the whole Axis offensive could of been cut. With a proper counteroffensive it may not have stopped the Germans in France. It probably would of slowed them down? Cost them more... It's not ahistorical to kill drain some German Resources and prolong the conflict. The Germans don't have to lose "a unit in France," if they play it perfectly. Though their cost and timeframe will not be June and in this game that's a little early. To beef up the Russians you would probably spend a lot more time digging through XP modifications, unit modifications to make the perfect balance. When a September Fall of France is pretty good... Axis are still strong enough to fight into '42 but they will tip there as they did historically. You advocate Sea Lion and that wasn't even historically possible in many opinions. Russians could of been better prepared ... and a '42 Russia is complete fiction we don't even know if it would ever happened. Stalin may have waited for a very long time to invade. I think that the variables are good. Russia is really weak and vulnerable but only for 12 months. After that She is a Beast that cannot be stopped! quote: ORIGINAL: stjeand Harry and I are doing our first test... 1) We changed rail repair to 2...though I think that may still not be enough IF 1942 if the most troublesome for Russia...but we will see. 2) Fixed a UK bug were they were getting to many PP from 1942 on... I still think that Russia needs more throw away troops for slowing the Axis. I think the issue is going to be around German 1942. Historically the Germans got there. THEN they refocused their main efforts south, so Moscow held. IF they keep them focused on Moscow it would have fallen most likely. The issue will be hoping they can not go to much further but won't be sure until we test. What has to happen now is the Allies have to invade somewhere to keep redirect the Germans... That is not historical. But we shall see. IF the Germans can not get to the gates of Moscow in 41...Odds are they can in 42 if not past. The question will be EVEN if they get past can the Russias hold them until 43. At that time things should start to swing back with Africa and Italy and on the Russian Front.

battlevonwar -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/28/2021 2:02:22 AM)
Also the German units were spent fighting second rate Russian Forces on the way to the Caucasus and Stalingrad if you're saying the bulk of good Russian forces were in Center. They lacked oil and logistics to finish the Red Army. If they did they would of have been so spent that the Russians would of taken it all back just as they did in the South. Germans wanted to take Stalingrad on the March. They might of pulled that off with luck and a more direct focus. They weren't going to get the Capitol on the March it would of been every man/woman and child to the death ... '41 was the do or die year in the East and the Germans just didn't have the Push to push deep and fast enough. Unless the Russians really blundered bad. quote: ORIGINAL: Flaviusx It is in fact highly unlikely Germany could've taken out Moscow in 42. The area was packed with the bulk of Soviet reserves -- Stalin was expecting an attack here not south -- and the area was deeply fortified. It would have been Kursk but a year earlier.

battlevonwar -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/28/2021 2:11:34 AM)
With such houserules you would be really be hampering the ability for the French to be prepared for the Germans. It would be like holding one arm behind your back. . . If the player messes up big enough or the weather goes against him the Axis can force the decision earlier. I've lost games quick that way. I think the weather is more steady now? Rarely see those 3 or 4 cold turns out of nowhere. Though without WDF and the Colonials you really are low on speedbumps. . . I would be interested with my dental work coming up though I'd be slow or after. I am rusty and much better with my Axis vs just about 6 Allied PBEM games! Axis are indeed pretty unbeatable if you give them France so early cause they get Greece, Bulgaria, Norway and possibly Gibraltar and Spain/Malta for free. Or just camp and steamroll Russia. Build 12 Subs and if the naval rules are the same you can't easily hunt down fleets that raid? I notice when 2 players play each other repeatedly they learn from one another also, quickly. It's like A Multiplier in skill and tactics! quote: ORIGINAL: Harrybanana Batlevonwar, I am not sure who the "players" are that "all agree" that the strategy you put out is a viable defence of Russia; but they do not include myself, Sveint or Flavius. All three of us believe that the Axis are too strong. I agree with you that the more skilled player will win most games regardless of which side he plays. But with two good equally skilled players the Axis will win almost every time regardless of what strategy the Allies player uses. I would be happy to play you and you can use your strategy if you wish. EDIT: Though in fairness to your argument, I do play with House Rules that the French cannot move their colonial troops and the British can't move the WDF out of the Middle East until Italy is an Axis Ally.

ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/28/2021 6:18:45 AM)
In one of my games, UK and USA have taken all North Africa in May 1942. But, they did not invest in MM so my BoA is in good shape. Less MM means less PP sent to Russia.

Harrybanana -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/28/2021 3:58:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: battlevonwar With such houserules you would be really be hampering the ability for the French to be prepared for the Germans. It would be like holding one arm behind your back. . . If the player messes up big enough or the weather goes against him the Axis can force the decision earlier. I've lost games quick that way. I think the weather is more steady now? Rarely see those 3 or 4 cold turns out of nowhere. Though without WDF and the Colonials you really are low on speedbumps. . . I would be interested with my dental work coming up though I'd be slow or after. I am rusty and much better with my Axis vs just about 6 Allied PBEM games! Axis are indeed pretty unbeatable if you give them France so early cause they get Greece, Bulgaria, Norway and possibly Gibraltar and Spain/Malta for free. Or just camp and steamroll Russia. Build 12 Subs and if the naval rules are the same you can't easily hunt down fleets that raid? I notice when 2 players play each other repeatedly they learn from one another also, quickly. It's like A Multiplier in skill and tactics! I am not quite sure if I understand what you are saying. On the one hand you seem to be saying that if the British pump 10+ Units into France than they can hurt the Germans so bad that Russia will be able to hold out. But on the other hand you seem to be saying that if you take away just one of those units (the WDF) the Germans will steamroll France and be unbeatable. In any event I like these House Rules for 2 reasons: 1. In the game we know that Italy will not DOW the Allies until Paris is taken. But historically the Allies didn't know this at all. So there is no way that historically the British would have moved the WDF out of the Middle East. IMHO, moving this unit to France was always a bit cheesey (though I did it myself). 2. There already is a Rule that the Allies have to keep the same number of units in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Syria as the French have there or else Italy can DOW the Allies. But people were exploiting this by moving out the colonial French units and moving in weaker French units or British units. The purpose of my House Rule is to put a stop to this. Also with the new Rules it is a lot more difficult for the Germans to steamroll France in March or April even if they get cold turns because: 1. With the change to the garrisoning rule the Germans can no longer garrison all of their infantry in the Fall. This means it takes them longer to build the armour and mech they need to conquer France. 2. Since Belgium now joins the Allies if the Germans invade the Netherlands, the Germans can no longer invade the Netherlands one turn and take out Belgium on the next turn. Well not unless the French take Luxembourg, but that cretes its own problems for the Germans.

canuckgamer -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/28/2021 8:30:24 PM)
Compared to western Europe the roads in Russia were primitive so it makes sense to me that the advance of converted rail should be reduced back to it's original rate. I assume that converting the rail would depend on moving equipment and construction crews forward by either foot or some kind of transport so the lack of decent roads would impact this. Add this to giving all the arriving Siberian units the winterization specialty and reverting back to 35% experience would I think be more historical and give the Russians a fighting chance.

Flaviusx -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/29/2021 12:24:50 AM)
People are overthinking this. All that is necessary here is to rollback the patch changes that dropped the Soviet efficiency and delayed the mech changes. Balance on the eastern front was pretty good before that happened. This was absolutely unnecessary and justified only by Alvaro's desire to make a 42 Barbarossa viable. Well, he has certainly done that. And much more besides. Nobody was asking for these changes, btw. This came from him and him alone for this sole purposes, which threw a monkey wrench in game balance which has not been solved since then and it is becoming increasingly clear to veteran players that the Eastern Front is broken. He has not responded once to this now very lengthy and still active thread so I can only assume he won't do anything. It may come down to this: just make a homebrew scenario and change those two items and start playing that for PBEM. Then the game would be very close to perfect. The only other thing I might be inclined to mess with at this stage is perhaps airpower. Leaning towards simply dropping all production costs for air units by 1/2 or 1/3 in order to make them more cost effective and get people to build more of them. They are simply too expensive right now for what they are doing. I am not keen to make air units stronger, though. Rather, cheaper.

Harrybanana -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/29/2021 3:29:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Flaviusx The only other thing I might be inclined to mess with at this stage is perhaps airpower. Leaning towards simply dropping all production costs for air units by 1/2 or 1/3 in order to make them more cost effective and get people to build more of them. They are simply too expensive right now for what they are doing. I am not keen to make air units stronger, though. Rather, cheaper. There is also a bug with air units that they expend 12% efficiency to make air strikes of all kinds except ground support, when it is only supposed to cost 6% according to the manual. If this was fixed it would go a little way to making air units more effective.

ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/29/2021 11:21:49 AM)
When is the next patch with this fix by the way?

stjeand -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/29/2021 12:53:06 PM)
Keep in mind if anyone thinks that the "old" Russia was better those changes are easily made and can be used / testing. People seem to think that they can only play the "official" versions which is foolish. Editors exist for a reason...one huge one is so players can put in changes that work better and can be tested. If you want to wait for developers to change / fix everything that will never happen. I can walk anyone through taking the 39 scenario and making it like it was before to be validated. Though changing the experience of units on the map takes a little effort but the experience to start, mech changes, even changing the air is simple. A developer can NOT test all these things and if no one else will then they will never happen. There are things the editor can not adjust...like the % of lost efficiency due to attack...BUT everything else in this thread can be.

Flaviusx -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/29/2021 1:29:37 PM)
Testing? This was the way the game rolled for over a year. It's been tested. And it was fine. The only reason this was changed was because Alvaro wanted to make a 42 Barbarossa viable. And this worked! Unfortunately, with a whole bunch of consequences which Alvaro did not think through nor test. We have since tested those results and they have been found wanting. We don't have to guess here. He told us this. Because he and his opponent frequently play games that involve a 42 Barbarossa. This is, shall we say, not the common approach. Nor should it be. A 42 Barbarossa ought not be anywhere near as effective as a 41 Barbarossa. And now it is almost just as good. This is a very poor design decision. He then threw this garrison bone to try to offset the change. It did not work. Just go back to how it was before. There was no need, none whatever, to mess around with this.

ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/29/2021 4:27:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stjeand People seem to think that they can only play the "official" versions which is foolish. Editors exist for a reason...one huge one is so players can put in changes that work better and can be tested. If you want to wait for developers to change / fix everything that will never happen. I can walk anyone through taking the 39 scenario and making it like it was before to be validated. Though changing the experience of units on the map takes a little effort but the experience to start, mech changes, even changing the air is simple. Okay, but there is no checksum on the "official" version of the scenarios. When I accept a PBEM with a scenario named "Europe 1939", how, HOW can I guarantee myself that the scenario has not been patched with any value? Me too, I can change the based experience of all Russian or French troops to 70%. How do we know that we are all playing the same scenario?

stjeand -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/29/2021 5:17:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ncc1701e How do we know that we are all playing the same scenario? ' WELL in my testing with Harry...unless you have the scenario you can't play it. I built one to test, we could not play until we both had a copy. I suspect checksum is occurring automatically. But only Al could answer that.

battlevonwar -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/30/2021 2:39:34 AM)
Alvaro did that with me I was totally decimated. quote: ORIGINAL: ncc1701e In one of my games, UK and USA have taken all North Africa in May 1942. But, they did not invest in MM so my BoA is in good shape. Less MM means less PP sent to Russia.

battlevonwar -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/30/2021 2:46:27 AM)
HarryBanana, Slowing down both the French/British and the Germans? Not a bad idea pre French Blitz. I totally didn't catch your point on the Germans not Garrisoning. This has played out as balanced for you?

battlevonwar -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/30/2021 2:51:03 AM)
With Pacific out probably he's swamped on that unfortunately I don't see where any changes were necessary either. It seemed like the game was pretty well balanced in the East if things ran right in the West... quote: ORIGINAL: Flaviusx People are overthinking this. All that is necessary here is to rollback the patch changes that dropped the Soviet efficiency and delayed the mech changes. Balance on the eastern front was pretty good before that happened. This was absolutely unnecessary and justified only by Alvaro's desire to make a 42 Barbarossa viable. Well, he has certainly done that. And much more besides. Nobody was asking for these changes, btw. This came from him and him alone for this sole purposes, which threw a monkey wrench in game balance which has not been solved since then and it is becoming increasingly clear to veteran players that the Eastern Front is broken. He has not responded once to this now very lengthy and still active thread so I can only assume he won't do anything. It may come down to this: just make a homebrew scenario and change those two items and start playing that for PBEM. Then the game would be very close to perfect. The only other thing I might be inclined to mess with at this stage is perhaps airpower. Leaning towards simply dropping all production costs for air units by 1/2 or 1/3 in order to make them more cost effective and get people to build more of them. They are simply too expensive right now for what they are doing. I am not keen to make air units stronger, though. Rather, cheaper.

Harrybanana -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/30/2021 5:50:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: battlevonwar HarryBanana, Slowing down both the French/British and the Germans? Not a bad idea pre French Blitz. I totally didn't catch your point on the Germans not Garrisoning. This has played out as balanced for you? The Rule changes have made it more difficult for Germany to make an early (ie pre May 40) attack on France because it takes Germany longer to build the necessary units (Armour and Mech) and because it is now more difficult to conquer Belgium in 1 turn. But this is more than balanced by the Rule change that now units which have no where to retreat (because there is no empty hex within 2 hexes) are Shattered into the Deployment Queue rather than being destroyed. This makes it far more difficult for the Allies to destroy German units while at the same time allowing the Germans to move all their units forward without having to worry about leaving retreat routes. The net effect is that the Battle of France begins later than before, but still ends about the same time (August 40 or so). As well it is now far less likely that the Germans will permanently lose 3+ units. So while the Germans can still expect to lose 300+ Force Strength (land and air), fewer of those casualties will be permanent kills. At least this has been my experience so far. So the game is in my opinion still unbalanced in favour of the Axis.

ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/30/2021 6:34:16 PM)
I think the problem lies in the way the experience is conveyed to a unit. For example, we are June 4th, 1943. I am at 50% based experience already. But, my best unit is at 58% because Siberian are starting at 50% if I remember well. [image]local://upfiles/46661/D83D961267CB45A3816D23B5DEA4AFEF.jpg[/image]

ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/30/2021 6:34:48 PM)
Some armies are just under 50%. [image]local://upfiles/46661/0A4AC671A9124AF0BF0A20F27C39D396.jpg[/image]

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