RE: What To Do With Russia (Full Version)

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ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/30/2021 6:36:05 PM)

My air armies are surprisingly high in terms of experience.

[image]local://upfiles/46661/74868D1502334B15ADE2497F51E04896.jpg[/image]



ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/30/2021 6:37:07 PM)

But not the bulk of my armies that are still around 30%. No combat no gain. Like if training from veterans is not taken into account.

[image]local://upfiles/46661/C8C893CD6873478B91B6D8A6983271C5.jpg[/image]



ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/30/2021 7:00:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

My air armies are surprisingly high in terms of experience.

[image]local://upfiles/46661/74868D1502334B15ADE2497F51E04896.jpg[/image]


And to complete about this. Air units are gaining experience quicker, why?

Simple, they are usually around 7/20 or 4/20 when I start to repair them. So experience is coming quicker with all these steps replaced.

Of course, you can't do this with your land units. Why?

Simple, because never you will see a land unit at 7/30. This is always 17/30, 27/30, 24/30. Land units are not taking enough step losses to gain experience at a high rate.



ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/30/2021 7:24:29 PM)

And why? Old resurrected post:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=5050392

quote:

Change casualty to kill level by 7% (means less kills more effectiveness loss)



Harrybanana -> RE: What To Do With Russia (9/30/2021 9:04:04 PM)

There are a couple fixes for your 30% Army problem.

One is to attack with them, and I don't mean just one attack, but 2 or 3 in the same turn even if the odds are only 1-1 or so. If, as you say, you do this and the Armies lose 7 steps each you will end up with Armies that are probably 23/30 with 32% experience (assuming they gain 2% experience from the combats). After the Armies receive the 7 steps of 50% replacements they end up 30/30 with 35% experience. Rinse and repeat for another 4 to 6 turns of combat (which probably won't be consecutive turns) and your Armies will be at 50% experience. Of course this consumes a lot of manpower and PP, but it has the advantage of wearing down the Axis as well from all your attacks.

The other option is to disband the 30% Armies and than use the PP to build new Armies with 50% experience. Since you have to disband two Armies in order to get the PP to build one Army you actually gain manpower doing this and end up with a single Army that is 80% stronger than the disbanded Armies.

I generally do a combination of these two. Once Russia is "safe" and I am finally thinking about going on the offensive I will scour the map to find the units that I want to disband. I am primarily looking for units that have low experience (35% or less), are using obsolete equipment or are garrisoned. Very seldom will I ungarrison a 30% Army with 39 equipment, it is a waste of PP. Units that have some or all of these attributes I will over time disband and use the PP to build 50% units with the highest possible upgrades. Units with higher experience, mobilty and more modern equipment will be used as indicated above to gain experience.



Flaviusx -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/1/2021 12:12:34 AM)

Disband those armies ASAP.

It's both quicker and more efficient to do this. By mid 43 production should not be an issue here; and manpower gets recycled 100%, unlike production. So put that manpower to work where it will do you the most good: in freshly raised armies.

In two months you will get back a 50% experience rifle army. You won't get those 30% rifle armies up to 50% anytime soon, if ever. There comes a point in the game when the Red Army has to start recycling forces to keep au courant and you have hit that point.



MorningDew -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/1/2021 1:49:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Disband those armies ASAP.

It's both quicker and more efficient to do this. By mid 43 production should not be an issue here; and manpower gets recycled 100%, unlike production. So put that manpower to work where it will do you the most good: in freshly raised armies.

In two months you will get back a 50% experience rifle army. You won't get those 30% rifle armies up to 50% anytime soon, if ever. There comes a point in the game when the Red Army has to start recycling forces to keep au courant and you have hit that point.


That's too much micro management - avoidance of which is an objective of this game.



Flaviusx -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/1/2021 7:46:33 AM)

If you want to play this game EZ mode and avoid micromanagement, stick to the Germans and just roll out panzer corps.

Unfortunately the Soviets require you to squeeze out every scrap out of the game engine. You are playing with at least one arm tied behind your back here.



CHINCHIN -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/1/2021 8:07:40 AM)

I don't have much experience to give an opinion, but in what little I have seen, for me the main problem in the USSR is the ease of the axis player to surround the enemy, and the null power of reaction of the Russians to this.



ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/1/2021 5:03:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

There are a couple fixes for your 30% Army problem.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Disband those armies ASAP.


But, sorry guys, is it not the proof that Russia with 30% experience can resist? This is one of my PBEM.

I am not sure anymore of the problem and of the goal. Do we all agree that, in 1943, Germany should still be in Russia?
And you are not willing to have the Red army in Berlin sooner than 1944?



Harrybanana -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/1/2021 7:48:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

There are a couple fixes for your 30% Army problem.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Disband those armies ASAP.


But, sorry guys, is it not the proof that Russia with 30% experience can resist? This is one of my PBEM.

I am not sure anymore of the problem and of the goal. Do we all agree that, in 1943, Germany should still be in Russia?
And you are not willing to have the Red army in Berlin sooner than 1944?



I have gone on record as saying that in most games the more skilled player will win regardless of which side he plays. I as well have won games as the Allies where the Russians starting experience is 30%. But, with due respect to my opponents, these are games where I have been the more skilled player. So I can't comment on your game without reading the AAR of it so I can judge which of you played the more skillfully.

For myself I almost always play mirror games. That way if each player wins one game playing the same side it may be an indication that the game is unbalanced in favour of that side. Examples are my mirror games against Sveint, where we both won as The Axis in 1941. Since our games Warplan has been updated with the change to the Garrison Rule. But IMHO, this change does not go far enough in fixing the imbalance.

So I agree that in 1943 in games between equally skilled players Germany should still be in Russia in 1943 and Berlin should not be captured prior to September 1944. I think anytime after September 1944 would be a possible result between equally skilled players, as would Berlin not being captured until after September 1945 (if the game went that long). But by the same token, in games between equally skilled players Russia should not be effectively conquered at all, let alone in 1941. For myself I am seeing a lot more of the latter results (Russia effectively conquered) than I am the former (Germany conquered prior to September 1944).



ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/1/2021 8:13:11 PM)

Thanks, we are on the same page regarding goals.



ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/3/2021 9:15:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Unfortunately the Soviets require you to squeeze out every scrap out of the game engine. You are playing with at least one arm tied behind your back here.


Maybe a suggestion for Alvaro to avoid to disband everything. I am using all my Red Army units to do a front line. Sometimes I don't have the opportunity to disband to recreate. Otherwise, I will create holes.

Alvaro has done a super nice addition before. It was to convert the Infantry Rifle Corps to Infantry Half Army.

Now here is my suggestion. Looks at this army. It is there from the beginning. Was perhaps not involved in many fights. As you can see, it has only 31% experience and we are in July 1943. But, it was upgraded to Assault 1944 and it is useful to my front line.

I honestly don't remember if it is coming from two Infantry Rifle Corps at 20% experience, then converted to Infantry Half Army and then merged into this Infantry Full Army.

[image]local://upfiles/46661/64D64EAF67A54B23B72800E5B16C1267.jpg[/image]



ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/3/2021 9:32:33 PM)

As I said before, only combat will allow it to gain experience. There is no training from veterans allowing an unit to gain experience by adding veterans inside it.

The based experience of the Red Army, in my game, is at 50% since many turns. The problem is the broadcast of this experience inside the units deployed on the map. And this is why people are disbanding armies at 31% to recreate a brand new one at 50%.

As such, why not create a script to simulate unit gaining experience by training?

What I propose is to trigger unit experience upgrade only if there is a difference of 10% between the unit experience and the based experience of a given army. This would limit things. This way, an army at 41% experience won't be concerned if my based experience is at 50%.

But, for a unit eligible to unit experience upgrade, they have a 40% chance each turn to gain 1% experience.

This way, my unit at 31% experience may gain 1% slowly until it reachs 40%.

No more need to disband and recreate while you are fighting to prevent the Germans to do holes and encirclements.

We can even say that this process starts only in 1942.

Just an idea. Of course, the above numbers could be adapted. But, I think the USSR must not be too strong too quickly.

[image]local://upfiles/46661/6839FEB44F174AF0B6497D06051A85F6.jpg[/image]



ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/3/2021 9:45:07 PM)

This may give the boost the USSR needs in terms of experience to resist and to not collapse too easily as the best German players say (I am not one of them).
In all my last games, the Red Army is very strong from 1942 but I am a bad Axis player it seems.





aoffen -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/10/2021 1:40:22 AM)

Playing a friend PBEM at the moment. Its my 4th game and his first. He is Axis and says he is finding it really tough going in Russia. Its only June 41 but maybe there us an argument that player experience and skill is actually a bigger difference than the current play balance. We shall see.



ncc1701e -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/10/2021 10:51:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aoffen

Playing a friend PBEM at the moment. Its my 4th game and his first. He is Axis and says he is finding it really tough going in Russia. Its only June 41 but maybe there us an argument that player experience and skill is actually a bigger difference than the current play balance. We shall see.


With the last patch, my opponent pulverized me. September 1943, Berlin is 10 hexes away for the Russian.
Skill, absolutely.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/10/2021 2:43:20 PM)

Skill is a big difference in any game. Years of experience playing World in Flames where many games ended in 1943 or 1944.



Harrybanana -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/10/2021 5:03:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aoffen

Playing a friend PBEM at the moment. Its my 4th game and his first. He is Axis and says he is finding it really tough going in Russia. Its only June 41 but maybe there us an argument that player experience and skill is actually a bigger difference than the current play balance. We shall see.


Of course Skill is the biggest difference. As I keep saying (read my post above) in a game between players of different skill the more skilled player will win regardless of which side he plays. But I think you will find that if you and your friend play multiple games and continue to gain in skill to an equal level, you will eventually find that the Axis are winning every game.



CrackingShow -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/20/2021 12:32:18 PM)

I'm a bad player (I think), but I would like to know why GER have seventy base experience and the USSR only has 30%? Why are the Germans so overwhelmingly powerful whilst the Reds are so weak? Sure 1941 was very bad for the Soviet Union, but they went on to deal most of the casualties in the war to the Axis powers. I think they need more help, the 20% experience units are boy scouts brigades trying to fight 70% experience Navy Seals...



AlvaroSousa -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/20/2021 12:58:27 PM)

Man for man the German soldier was that good.
And until pretty much late 1942 early 1943 the Soviets were really that bad. It wasn't the men but the officer pool was just wiped out by the purges. Then the commanders that were there were faced with terrible decisions and not able to do things on their own.

Do what the order say and fail, YOU DIE!
Change the orders and save the unit, YOU DIE!
Stalin says attack, you attack, OR DIE!

But by late 1942 he started letting generals do their thing.

Only until 1944 did the Russians cause more casualties than inflicted. Look at the stats for the casualties in the battle of Kursk in 1943

Casualties
Side A - 203k men casualties, ~1000 tanks, 680 a/c
Side B - 1,000k men casualties, ~7000 tanks, 3,000 a/c

Which side was Germany? We know the Russians won.

Germany inflicted enormous losses on the Russians up to 1943. 1944+ it they lost more than dished out for the most part.
That's why Germany is 70% and Russia 30%. Russia does eventually build up to 50% base experience.



sveint -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/20/2021 4:55:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa
Germany inflicted enormous losses on the Russians up to 1943. 1944+ it they lost more than dished out for the most part.
That's why Germany is 70% and Russia 30%. Russia does eventually build up to 50% base experience.


But then why is Soviet production so very very low?

Just look at these numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II

Soviet production should match or exceed German production.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/20/2021 9:28:07 PM)

That is for game balance. if I gave them absolute historical production the Axis could not win. They would get slaughtered. It was higher before.

Currently in the next build armor effective cost to attack will be doubled from 6 to 12%



AlvaroSousa -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/20/2021 9:28:51 PM)

The big issue is the firepower of armor and how long they can attack. This is from reading all the posts and playing many games.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/20/2021 9:58:20 PM)

Armor/mech have too much sustained firepower for their value. So it behooves players to buy more and more of them. They push too far and too easily destroy well fortified lines.

So effectiveness is the main tool to adjust. In France it won't really change anything as it is a short campaign. But it should in Russia and later in the war when the Allies come in.



sveint -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/20/2021 10:25:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

That is for game balance. if I gave them absolute historical production the Axis could not win.


I'd love that as a "Soviet option" scenario.



stjeand -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/21/2021 2:59:15 AM)

Why not just slow down the armor/mech?
How about a move of 7 base...Heavy Armor it never goes up where as Breakthrough it can go up to +2
Armor at speed 7 will slow things...Heavy tanks should not be much faster than mobile infantry anyways.

Rail repair could be lowered...Germans had major supply issues for all their armed forces not just armor.

Baltics could be addressed...60% of the rail in the Baltics was Soviet gauge...but in this game it is German gauge the whole way. Basically everything Riga and north could be Russian gauge. That would slow the Germans in the north.



Not a fan of more effectiveness loss. 80% of my attacks now I lose 10% or more now just due to damage. I don't remember the last time I lost only 6%.
If you change it to 12% I would hope that the effectiveness instead of damage would get removed.

I think you would need to allow ways to gain back "extra" effectiveness, say if the unit is away from the front lines they get a bonus...

I suspect the Germans will have trouble with a 12% loss per attack in France.

IF you do go this route it would be nice if it was in the editor because if it breaks the game...it will be unplayable. This would allow us to play with the value.



Harrybanana -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/21/2021 4:53:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

Why not just slow down the armor/mech?
How about a move of 7 base...Heavy Armor it never goes up where as Breakthrough it can go up to +2
Armor at speed 7 will slow things...Heavy tanks should not be much faster than mobile infantry anyways.

Rail repair could be lowered...Germans had major supply issues for all their armed forces not just armor.

Baltics could be addressed...60% of the rail in the Baltics was Soviet gauge...but in this game it is German gauge the whole way. Basically everything Riga and north could be Russian gauge. That would slow the Germans in the north.



Not a fan of more effectiveness loss. 80% of my attacks now I lose 10% or more now just due to damage. I don't remember the last time I lost only 6%.
If you change it to 12% I would hope that the effectiveness instead of damage would get removed.

I think you would need to allow ways to gain back "extra" effectiveness, say if the unit is away from the front lines they get a bonus...

I suspect the Germans will have trouble with a 12% loss per attack in France.

IF you do go this route it would be nice if it was in the editor because if it breaks the game...it will be unplayable. This would allow us to play with the value.



I agree with everything Stjeand says here, except to only reduce Armour and Mech OPs by 1 rather than 2. We are playing a test game now where rail repair is reduced to 2 hexes per turn. I think this alone might be enough to balance the game.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/21/2021 12:59:40 PM)

The effectiveness change is in the editor.

I plan to run a hotseat game for 1939 till the fall of France to test this out.

Maybe the rail repair of 1 will do it. But it also means the Germans will have NO chance to defeat Russia. Currently the rail repair is at historical levels.




stjeand -> RE: What To Do With Russia (10/21/2021 3:28:17 PM)

Very possible...but won't know till it is tested more. Currently rail repair is set to 2.

I am a poor Allies player so Harry is still just walking over me and he is past historical locations in the North and South...though I think it is historical in the center at the moment.
I am sure I am will not be able to survive. I need more practice as Russia and to get there takes WAY to much time.

I just noticed the %...
I can test hotseat...though I hate playing myself.


Perhaps we could create a scenario that starts Sept 1940 to simulate the invasion of Russia their builds...let the Russians get all their points and the Germans too...up both sides to max manpower each turn so that when the Russians build 20 corps they get all the manpower back.

Right now to test it takes a couple weeks to get to Russia...and then within a week or two you know the result.
Taking a month for each test case is to slow.



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