Leader Deaths

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HardLuckYetAgain -> Leader Deaths (2/3/2022 1:59:40 AM)
I have turned this into a leader death thread after it has become apparant that leader deaths seem to be happening greater than the stated value. Turn 1 Beginning of Turn Gotta love it! 17 Dead Leaders even before I move. Seems to me the increase in leaders KIA has gone up substantially. /shrug oh well I will just use whatever leader anyway. [image]local://upfiles/53556/FC887585832248288C23669E73F91089.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 3:05:49 AM)
Defiantly a strategy now, if it is not then it sure will be shortly. I am sure next turn I will lose even more leaders and some more good ones at that since I don't have the AP to promote enough good ones to get them out of trouble. Just going to let it happen to see the grand total and how many good leaders get waxed the next turn. Should be interesting to see at the minimum. But this strategy is GREAT to get rid of GOOD Soviet leaders early. Why not? The leader deaths have, in my observation, increased greatly. So I would recommend ALL Germans to target all the HQ's as much as you can the first few turns to get these Soviet leader KIA's. Why not get those good leaders out of the way while you can before they can be saved. Cheesy strategy but hey the game allows for it with current leader deaths.

DesertedFox -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 4:09:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain Defiantly a strategy now, if it is not then it sure will be shortly. I am sure next turn I will lose even more leaders and some more good ones at that since I don't have the AP to promote enough good ones to get them out of trouble. Just going to let it happen to see the grand total and how many good leaders get waxed the next turn. Should be interesting to see at the minimum. But this strategy is GREAT to get rid of GOOD Soviet leaders early. Why not? The leader deaths have, in my observation, increased greatly. So I would recommend ALL Germans to target all the HQ's as much as you can the first few turns to get these Soviet leader KIA's. Why not get those good leaders out of the way while you can before they can be saved. Cheesy strategy but hey the game allows for it with current leader deaths. Well HLYA there have been a number of excellent ideas on how to increase the number of leader deaths in this thread. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135993 We have quote: ORIGINAL: xhoel I dont think this is a bug. Leaders of isolated forces were sometimes evacuated by air and sent to other locations and the new leader was either flown in or assigned from the ones already in the pocket. I think what could be changed is: adding a certain percentage that a leader being reassigned from a pocket will die. Air crash/air intercept etc. and quote: ORIGINAL: Stamb Yep. Maybe something in between of 15% and 50%. 30%? Unfortunately (cough cough) Joel spoiled the party quote: ORIGINAL: Joel Billings I doubt we will change this, since you have to spend the APs to do this. Players can always house rule against it if they want to. What a pity, we could have had a DLC to address these leaders flying out and called it "Assassinations in the East".

DesertedFox -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 4:15:10 AM)
German generals flown out of Stalingrad at night. How many didn't make it I don't know, but I am sure we can get that first turn figure of 17 deaths over the 25 mark if we try hard enough. https://www.stalingrad.net/german-hq/fate-german-generals/german-officers-became-general.htm

xhoel -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 7:43:23 AM)
@HLYA: The changes have increased the leader deaths too much and should be reduced. Leader deaths should not be something that the players are gaming for and unfortunately currently the game incentivizes just that. @DesertedFox: This isn`t the gotcha you think it is as that thread was about something different ;)

ShaggyHiK -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 8:03:53 AM)
The death of a leader is what gives each party a unique flavor. This mechanic should be, the question here is that the death of a leader such as Zhukov or Tolbukhin is something that actually weakens the Soviet army too much in the initial and middle periods of the war. These are commanders that cannot be replaced. In general, it turns out to be a rather strange system, when changing / shooting / death of a leader for an army, put the best commander available. On the one hand, this simplifies Soviet reassignments. On the other hand, why is this system applied to encircled headquarters? A replacement of this kind looks like the fact that STAVKA sends the commander to the surrounded or vulnerable headquarters so that the sent commander would die there. Seriously? If the commander is dead then he has deputies, chiefs of staff, lesser officers who at least temporarily fill the void of power. And as a rule, these are people from this army, so it’s strange that it is the best commanders from the pool who get as a replacement for those killed.

Stamb -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 8:04:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertedFox quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain Defiantly a strategy now, if it is not then it sure will be shortly. I am sure next turn I will lose even more leaders and some more good ones at that since I don't have the AP to promote enough good ones to get them out of trouble. Just going to let it happen to see the grand total and how many good leaders get waxed the next turn. Should be interesting to see at the minimum. But this strategy is GREAT to get rid of GOOD Soviet leaders early. Why not? The leader deaths have, in my observation, increased greatly. So I would recommend ALL Germans to target all the HQ's as much as you can the first few turns to get these Soviet leader KIA's. Why not get those good leaders out of the way while you can before they can be saved. Cheesy strategy but hey the game allows for it with current leader deaths. Well HLYA there have been a number of excellent ideas on how to increase the number of leader deaths in this thread. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135993 We have quote: ORIGINAL: xhoel I dont think this is a bug. Leaders of isolated forces were sometimes evacuated by air and sent to other locations and the new leader was either flown in or assigned from the ones already in the pocket. I think what could be changed is: adding a certain percentage that a leader being reassigned from a pocket will die. Air crash/air intercept etc. and quote: ORIGINAL: Stamb Yep. Maybe something in between of 15% and 50%. 30%? Unfortunately (cough cough) Joel spoiled the party quote: ORIGINAL: Joel Billings I doubt we will change this, since you have to spend the APs to do this. Players can always house rule against it if they want to. What a pity, we could have had a DLC to address these leaders flying out and called it "Assassinations in the East". If you could only read a whole thread. What is the reason for not letting SU relocation when it is in the pocket? For AP for example. Because everybody would use it and evacuate the most valuable units. I though that same rule is applying to a leaders. But it is not. Ok. No tragedy. There was a fix, not even a change, to a leaders death chance: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5140067 v01.02.15 Leaders in HQs forcibly displaced were not being killed as often as they should (15% non-isolated/50% isolated). Fixed. It means that previously it was not working correctly. Was it not working from a game release? I do not know. But I started to play this game few month ago and it was not working like described. But people get used to it. And now - boom, why my leaders are actually dying while previously you could displace 50 HQ with few deaths? In my opinion 15% non-isolated/50% isolated chance for a death is ok. It makes sense that HQ commander is a target when enemy troops gets to a HQ.

Stamb -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 8:07:31 AM)
Maybe something has to be done to prevent reassigning of other valuable leaders to a HQ that was displaced.

DesertedFox -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:10:52 AM)
quote: If you could only read a whole thread. What is the reason for not letting SU relocation when it is in the pocket? For AP for example. Because everybody would use it and evacuate the most valuable units. I though that same rule is applying to a leaders. But it is not. Ok. No tragedy. There was a fix, not even a change, to a leaders death chance: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5140067 v01.02.15 Leaders in HQs forcibly displaced were not being killed as often as they should (15% non-isolated/50% isolated). Fixed. It means that previously it was not working correctly. Was it not working from a game release? I do not know. But I started to play this game few month ago and it was not working like described. But people get used to it. And now - boom, why my leaders are actually dying while previously you could displace 50 HQ with few deaths? In my opinion 15% non-isolated/50% isolated chance for a death is ok. It makes sense that HQ commander is a target when enemy troops gets to a HQ. The fix came out in patch .15 released on Jan 15th, well before that thread your comment is made came out on Jan 27th. Change History: v01.02.15 – 15th January 2022 Bug Fixes and AI Improvements • Areas that should be in supply via ports are showing as isolated (Baltic Islands, cut off ports like Odessa – new bug created in 1.02.14). Fixed. • Leaders in HQs forcibly displaced were not being killed as often as they should (15% nonisolated/50% isolated). Fixed. quote: ORIGINAL: xhoel @DesertedFox: This isn`t the gotcha you think it is as that thread was about something different ;) I know what that thread was about (isolated leaders being transferred) see this post. quote: ORIGINAL: DesertedFox German generals flown out of Stalingrad at night. How many didn't make it I don't know, but I am sure we can get that first turn figure of 17 deaths over the 25 mark if we try hard enough. https://www.stalingrad.net/german-hq/fate-german-generals/german-officers-became-general.htm Your "suggestion" came AFTER the patch-fixed the leader % death chances. You just wanted more of them. Thus it was exactly the gotcha I wrote about.

DesertedFox -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:14:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xhoel @HLYA: The changes have increased the leader deaths too much and should be reduced. Leader deaths should not be something that the players are gaming for and unfortunately currently the game incentivizes just that. You write this statement today saying % is too much but on the 27th wrote there should be a chance of leaders dying being transferred out of a pocket, which would INCREASE the chances currently in game of leaders dying. quote: ORIGINAL: xhoel I think what could be changed is: adding a certain percentage that a leader being reassigned from a pocket will die. Air crash/air intercept etc. I didn't see the post on the 27th where you stuck your hand up and said quote: The changes have increased the leader deaths too much

Stamb -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:16:43 AM)
My thread was after the changes. Yes. And it is about relocating leaders from a pocket with 0 chances of being killed. Do you understand it? Not 15% not 50%. Zero. I don't want more kills. Or higher chances that 15 or 50. But not 0. There must be a risk for a leader when he is moved out of a pocket via reassigning.

DesertedFox -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:20:29 AM)
Yes, I understand what you were talking about. Did you see this post above? quote: ORIGINAL: DesertedFox German generals flown out of Stalingrad at night. How many didn't make it I don't know, but I am sure we can get that first turn figure of 17 deaths over the 25 mark if we try hard enough. https://www.stalingrad.net/german-hq/fate-german-generals/german-officers-became-general.htm You were not happy with the changes that you still wanted more deaths from pockets.

Stamb -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:20:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertedFox I didn't see the post on the 27th where you stuck your hand up and said quote: The changes have increased the leader deaths too much Check my post #6 here : https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5129529

DesertedFox -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:24:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stamb . There must be a risk for a leader when he is moved out of a pocket via reassigning. So HLYA's 17 leader deaths sits fine with you and you would like to add a risk of death being transferred out of a pocket along with the high AP points needed to accomplish that? quote: I don't want more kills Your suggestion WILL increase leader deaths. Seriously you don't get that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RedJohn -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:25:59 AM)
It applies to both sides. In my 1943 game I have had the likes of Rommel, Lothar, Gotthard, all killed. The change in death chances was fixing a bug, and is now working as intended - just for clarification. Personally I think it's a bit high, but it's not a big deal. I don't think there's a strategy here, getting Tolbukhin and bobkin killed is extraordinarily unlucky however.

DesertedFox -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:27:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stamb quote: ORIGINAL: DesertedFox I didn't see the post on the 27th where you stuck your hand up and said quote: The changes have increased the leader deaths too much Check my post #6 here : https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5129529 Your comments were made in the other thread are dated from Jan 27th and on, well after the fix had been released. Backtracking now doesn't count for jack S.

Stamb -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:27:45 AM)
When we are talking about 17 dead leaders in turn 1 it really looks strange as Axis player was overrunning HQs when they were not isolated, thus 15% chance must apply. To get 17 dead leaders you have to overrun 113 HQs. 113*0.15 = 16.95. Is it possible to do on turn 1? No. If we use 50% chance of a death for a NON isolated HQ then we get 34 HQs for 17 leader deaths. Is is also possible on turn 1? Probably not. Looks like there is a bug or HLYA is super unlucky.

Stamb -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:33:25 AM)
DesertedFox I am not sure if you are trolling me or not. I will give my best one more time. In Post #: 13 in this topic I gave a link where I suspect that there might be a bug. In my thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135993 I describe a problem. And right now there is 0% chance that leader will die if he is relocated via reassigning. ZERO. No more leaders death. There will be 0 when using this method. I thought it should be between 15% and 50% (lets say 30%) for it when using AP to move leader out of a pocket (pocket by itself means that it is isolated). I do not want to add this 30% that I propose to existing 15% or 50%. I want to add this 30% to a 0% that we have right now.

DesertedFox -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:37:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stamb DesertedFox I am not sure if you are trolling me or not. I will give my best one more time. In Post #: 13 in this topic I gave a link where I suspect that there might be a bug. In my thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135993 I describe a problem. And right now there is 0% chance that leader will die if he is relocated via reassigning. ZERO. No more leaders death. There will be 0 when using this method. I thought it should be between 15% and 50% (lets say 30%) for it when using AP to move leader out of a pocket (pocket by itself means that it is isolated). I do not want to add this 30% that I propose to existing 15% or 50%. I want to add this 30% to a 0% that we have right now. No, you are trolling me. You say. quote: I don't want more kills and then you say this quote: I want to add this 30% to a 0% that we have right now. Which will INCREASE the chances of having leader deaths in the game!

xhoel -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:40:14 AM)
@Stamb: This guy is just a sad a troll that just wants to bother people. He isnt interested in having a discussion. Just ignore him.

tm1 -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:40:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain Turn 1 Beginning of Turn Gotta love it! 17 Dead Leaders even before I move. Seems to me the increase in leaders KIA has gone up substantially. /shrug oh well I will just use whatever leader anyway. [image]local://upfiles/53556/FC887585832248288C23669E73F91089.jpg[/image] Visions of a " The Great Officer Purge II " seem to come into view before my eyes but this time Comrade Stalin has given the German Armed forces his blessing to carry it out on his behalf [:D]. All humour aside I cant recall reading a post from this forum and the WITE 1 forum from days long ago that had the figure of 17 killed on any turn let alone the first turn of a match in both games ( WITE 1 / 2 ) Back in the old days of WITE 1 there was a Gentleman's rule of limited bombing of HQ's then I believe there was a patch that somewhat fixed this issue ( I could be wrong ). @stamb's post on the percentages from patch 1.02.15 to me does sound reasonable on the face of it, particularly the 50% for isolated troops. If a unit decides to fight to the last man or there about's there is going to be a good chance the General falls with his men, or at the very least gets captured. @HLYA I am stunned at 17 on the first turn and some big names on it as well , that has just got to be just a plain fluke of a turn, it could not be repeated surely. @xhoel I agree it certainly needs to be looked at specially for PvP player games. regards

DesertedFox -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:43:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xhoel @Stamb: This guy is just a sad a troll that just wants to bother people. He isnt interested in having a discussion. Just ignore him. I see mathematics isn't a strong trait with either of you.

Stamb -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 9:43:35 AM)
Right now according to a manual and fixes we should have 50% chance of leader death in case if it is overrun in a pocket. Units can not move out of a pockets. But surprisingly you can move leaders out of a pockets for AP with 0% chance of being killed. While other units can not move out of a pocket at all! If there would be no (I call it bug/exploit) "trick" that you can reassign isolated leaders then this leader would die in 50% cases. And I propose 30%.

loki100 -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 11:42:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertedFox quote: ORIGINAL: xhoel @Stamb: This guy is just a sad a troll that just wants to bother people. He isnt interested in having a discussion. Just ignore him. I see mathematics isn't a strong trait with either of you. why does every debate you enter into degenerate into personal abuse? Its perfectly feasible to disagree, set out why someone is wrong and not insult them as you do so

DesertedFox -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 11:51:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: loki100 quote: ORIGINAL: DesertedFox quote: ORIGINAL: xhoel @Stamb: This guy is just a sad a troll that just wants to bother people. He isnt interested in having a discussion. Just ignore him. I see mathematics isn't a strong trait with either of you. why does every debate you enter into degenerate into personal abuse? Its perfectly feasible to disagree, set out why someone is wrong and not insult them as you do so And being called a "troll" first wasn't a personal attack on me? Thx for your nonbiased and fair adjudication in this matter.

Beethoven1 -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 12:20:05 PM)
If this isn't changed, then for any new games I start there will be a house rule that we start the first few turns, until the initial pockets are cleared, we will be using a patch from before the leader deaths were put on steroids like this. Once the initial pockets are cleared, then we can switch to an updated patch. Targeted leader assassination drone strike tactics are just bad gameplay, in particular when it involves good leaders like Tolbukhin that don't even start in command of an army, but which are automatically put in charge of an army as a replacement commander before the Soviet player can even move a single unit. I think it is a different matter if a leader is killed subsequently on turn 10 or 50 or something because you were careless with placing the HQ and the enemy made a deep breakthrough, but this turn 1 stuff along with deliberately precision targeting Malinovsky, Galanin, Rokossovsky etc is just dumb and unrealistic.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 12:27:21 PM)
I have seen other posts about leader deaths. I posted about it a LONG time ago. If the powers in charge say that this is correct & the numbers are correct then so be it. I am not looking for change but just pointing out that this Strat will become previliant once more start doing this. You "can't" house rule this out either. Just not possible the way turn 1 works. So, seems a bit not historical losing good Soviet leaders to repeated HQ displacements since that is the only way I could have lost Tolbukhin. But whatever, I care not and will use any leader at my disposal. Again, I believe I won't replace any leaders turn 1 and see how many more good Soviet leaders are killed to "isolated" HQ's this time since turn 1 everyone should be NON-isolated, right? Doesn't seem like it. I do have to agree that 15% non-isolated leader loss does not seem to be the case since this is turn 1 of the GC. Plus if you add up the HQ's in the affected area then the number become even more pronounced. If done correctly, the Germans can keep hitting HQ's as they are displaced from combat and continue to add leader losses to the HQ if displaced over and over and over again if lucky. My recommendation, back in BETA I believe but can be wrong, was to not replace any leader in an HQ that had a leader killed until the phasing players turn. Yes, you will still have a leader death but you can't go fishing for more leader deaths from the same HQ displaced again.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 12:28:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Beethoven1 If this isn't changed, then for any new games I start there will be a house rule that we start the first few turns, until the initial pockets are cleared, we will be using a patch from before the leader deaths were put on steroids like this. Once the initial pockets are cleared, then we can switch to an updated patch. Targeted leader assassination drone strike tactics are just bad gameplay, in particular when it involves good leaders like Tolbukhin that don't even start in command of an army, but which are automatically put in charge of an army as a replacement commander before the Soviet player can even move a single unit. I think it is a different matter if a leader is killed subsequently on turn 10 or 50 or something because you were careless with placing the HQ and the enemy made a deep breakthrough, but this turn 1 stuff along with deliberately precision targeting Malinovsky, Galanin, Rokossovsky etc is just dumb and unrealistic. A house rule for turn 1 is just not possible if you think about it. That could end up crippling the German 1st turn :(

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 12:33:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: Beethoven1 If this isn't changed, then for any new games I start there will be a house rule that we start the first few turns, until the initial pockets are cleared, we will be using a patch from before the leader deaths were put on steroids like this. Once the initial pockets are cleared, then we can switch to an updated patch. Targeted leader assassination drone strike tactics are just bad gameplay, in particular when it involves good leaders like Tolbukhin that don't even start in command of an army, but which are automatically put in charge of an army as a replacement commander before the Soviet player can even move a single unit. I think it is a different matter if a leader is killed subsequently on turn 10 or 50 or something because you were careless with placing the HQ and the enemy made a deep breakthrough, but this turn 1 stuff along with deliberately precision targeting Malinovsky, Galanin, Rokossovsky etc is just dumb and unrealistic. A house rule for turn 1 is just not possible if you think about it. That could end up crippling the German 1st turn :( And playing with an earlier patch is a good idea but what other situations does that bring up?

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: 17 DEAD Soviet Leader even before I move (2/3/2022 12:43:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xhoel @HLYA: The changes have increased the leader deaths too much and should be reduced. Leader deaths should not be something that the players are gaming for and unfortunately currently the game incentivizes just that. I agree that the current ruleset "incentivizes" the Germans to target HQ's. Soviets better get used to losing good leaders the first 3ish turns since this looks like it could be the norm. Anyway, lets see how many leaders I lose turn 2 :-)

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