Beta Patch VVS performance (Full Version)

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IDGBIA -> Beta Patch VVS performance (2/4/2022 2:18:31 PM)

The .19 betapatch seems to of vastly improved the vvs

The listed changes are "Defensive ground support often totally misses the target. Fixed." however on the offensive the vvs seems to of also received a significant boost to performance, I first spotted this looking at a battle in the RedJohn The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered AAR so I loaded a few scenarios in both patches and it seems as though the VVS is up to 5x more effective in terms of not just disruption but also damaged and destroyed elements.

This seems to be similar to the artillery beta patch except the other way around as while im sure the underlying mechanical change affects both sides the soviets seem to benefit much more as a larger amount of guns destroyed and damaged harms axis much more than soviet

This is just a random screenshot of a battle I had in an ongoing game so not a perfect demonstration but I'm sure anyone else who often looks at battles and stares at HPE values and whatnot will see that this vvs performance is a huge upgrade to the usual destruction of one or two guns

I know its a betapatch for testing purposes so my feedback would be that this is perhaps a bit of an overcorrection in terms of making the vvs useful and the notes seem to somewhat understate the changes "Defensive ground support often totally misses the target. Fixed" as offensive airpower also seems much stronger



[image]local://upfiles/82525/BE507D968E6C40FB853D776C9F0671AC.gif[/image]



loki100 -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/4/2022 4:33:49 PM)

since there the LW had no defensive commitment then it looks WAD, there is an escalation of losses for uncontested GS as in 18.1.3:

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7779/KKeig6.jpg[/image]



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/4/2022 6:00:45 PM)

Would be nice to know if Axis side can except same results with their GS and if this changes were intended or some side effect?



IDGBIA -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/4/2022 6:33:23 PM)

Heres the same battle run on the current official patch, couldn't get the exact same conditions because of reserve activation and the number of planes joining but as you can see even with less planes the difference in performance is still huge on the official patch even totally unintercepted the VVS is underwhelming in GS

I'll try set up some battles to see if axis planes are similarly aided by the patch but from running a few battles in typhoon scenario they don't seem to be but again its hard to get the same amount joining for consistent results

[image]local://upfiles/82525/2EB6156D29394453A9009FB69EC4DE83.gif[/image]



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/4/2022 6:35:51 PM)

Oh. That last picture is what we get used too see!

Interesting to see if this was planned (if so - why no mention in a patch) or not?



loki100 -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/4/2022 6:36:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Would be nice to know if Axis side can except same results with their GS and if this changes were intended or some side effect?


of course not, the entire game is an anti-german design [8D]

or more sensibly, it was always intended there was a bonus if one side just went and hid so if that is now happening then yes both sides gain



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/4/2022 6:37:15 PM)

Maybe GS will be finally useful.



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/4/2022 6:38:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Would be nice to know if Axis side can except same results with their GS and if this changes were intended or some side effect?


of course not, the entire game is an anti-german design [8D]
...

This is what I am trying to say in a topics! Thanks for supporting me and other Axis fellows :P



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/4/2022 6:53:50 PM)

IDGBIA
Can you run defensive GS test? If defensive air support will provide same results?



xhoel -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/4/2022 7:16:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

since there the LW had no defensive commitment then it looks WAD, there is an escalation of losses for uncontested GS as in 18.1.3:

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7779/KKeig6.jpg[/image]


Isnt what the manual is saying something different though? Like I dont see how what is in the highlighted section translates to: If one side doesnt commit to GS, you do more damage?

If you hadnt explained it as clearly as you did above, I would have never guessed that thats what it means.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/5/2022 7:46:37 PM)

Oh, those disgusting German players... *My cannons are dying in a raid of 200 bombers and no cover from the Luftwaffe*

Nerf the Soviets!!11!!

*Stubbornly continues not to use his Luftwaffe and takes him from the beginning of the game to other theaters of war*



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/5/2022 7:59:21 PM)

Playing Soviet Air Forces in terms of their effectiveness do not even reach 10% of the real performance indicators.
German player:

*I don't care about the Soviets*

German player shooting down 200 aircraft out of 210 and losing 3 fighters on OPS losses:

*TOO HIGH LOSS FROM OPS DID NOT HAPPEN!!!*



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/5/2022 8:03:52 PM)

Soviet aviation ends without the active participation of German aviation in the subsequent turns after the first if it is just trying to fly. German player:

*Yes, I don’t care about the problems of aviation, especially the Soviet one, I move tanks*

Aviation receives the necessary buff:

*NERF SOVIET AVIATION!!!!*



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/5/2022 8:08:50 PM)

The line aviation buff is simply necessary.

That German and Soviet linear aviation is simply useless in operations against Ground Forces. Which does not reflect its effectiveness in reality.

This of course almost does not touch the issue of attack aircraft such as Ju-87 or IL-2, which may be even more effective than they should be.

The question is the complete inefficiency of such aircraft as the Ju-88 He-111 Pe-2 SB-2 IL-4 and the like. They are simply not able to even get somewhere, although the Soviet aviation was able to deliver bombing strikes, especially the German one.



Rosencrantus -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/5/2022 10:55:21 PM)

This patch seemed to improve GS in general. If the axis brings as much aircraft into a battle they get even better results with their much higher XP. Look at all those disruptions and destroyed even with the Soviets sending 233 fighters into the combat.

There is no need to jump to conclusions too quickly. Honestly I'm surprised the VVS didn't do more in your screenshot since a single german fighter wasn't even in the air.

GS won me this battle which made the Soviets suffer heavily.

[image]local://upfiles/76389/2439C877F8E34AA59B3266DE8E803FFD.jpg[/image]



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/6/2022 12:41:53 PM)

That's great to hear. Finally GS is great again.



Hardradi -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/6/2022 9:13:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

This patch seemed to improve GS in general. If the axis brings as much aircraft into a battle they get even better results with their much higher XP. Look at all those disruptions and destroyed even with the Soviets sending 233 fighters into the combat.

There is no need to jump to conclusions too quickly. Honestly I'm surprised the VVS didn't do more in your screenshot since a single german fighter wasn't even in the air.

GS won me this battle which made the Soviets suffer heavily.

[image]local://upfiles/76389/2439C877F8E34AA59B3266DE8E803FFD.jpg[/image]


Wow, those destroyed numbers are something else. Looks like you had a lot of targets to choose from.

Here I accidentally flew a huge GS mission(for me), disruptions are ok but few or no kills or damage.

[image]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/919044747715289150/940006977596162148/unknown.png[/image]






Hardradi -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/6/2022 9:21:41 PM)

Even the Rumanian's get in on the act:

[image]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/919044747715289150/940009078720184340/unknown.png[/image]



Rosencrantus -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/6/2022 9:46:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

This patch seemed to improve GS in general. If the axis brings as much aircraft into a battle they get even better results with their much higher XP. Look at all those disruptions and destroyed even with the Soviets sending 233 fighters into the combat.

There is no need to jump to conclusions too quickly. Honestly I'm surprised the VVS didn't do more in your screenshot since a single german fighter wasn't even in the air.

GS won me this battle which made the Soviets suffer heavily.

[image]local://upfiles/76389/2439C877F8E34AA59B3266DE8E803FFD.jpg[/image]


Wow, those destroyed numbers are something else. Looks like you had a lot of targets to choose from.

Here I accidentally flew a huge GS mission(for me), disruptions are ok but few or no kills or damage.

[image]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/919044747715289150/940006977596162148/unknown.png[/image]





Yeah I had a lot of tactical bombers which was why soviet guns/arty got destroyed so much. In this picture you had basically only level bombers doing most of the work and they are much more inaccurate than tac bombers, though I guess you got unlucky with such low destroyed numbers still. All those disruptions are still really good for the hasty attack though so I wouldn't have that many complaints.



xhoel -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/7/2022 12:41:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

Yeah I had a lot of tactical bombers which was why soviet guns/arty got destroyed so much. In this picture you had basically only level bombers doing most of the work and they are much more inaccurate than tac bombers, though I guess you got unlucky with such low destroyed numbers still.



Yeah, Tactical Bombers are great at hitting arty/guns. I showed that a few times in my AAR too. LBs seem a lot more likely to disrupt.

GS under current patch seems to be back to what it was before the bug occurred, which is good. More people should make use of it. It is valuable for both sides.



Rosencrantus -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/7/2022 10:21:33 PM)

Agreed, having GS being a strong force that can influence tough battles should really incentivize both sides to go crazy with the air war.



jubjub -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 1:39:35 AM)

The recent patches have benefited the Germans big time too. Since they're not losing nearly as many fighters to ops losses, the overall loss rate on their fighters has plummeted. This will allow the Luftwaffe to maintain dominance much longer than they were able to historically.

I said months ago when I was calling for reduced ops/flak losses that the VVS fighters would need to be buffed early-mid game, and I stand by that now.



Rosencrantus -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 3:41:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

The recent patches have benefited the Germans big time too. Since they're not losing nearly as many fighters to ops losses, the overall loss rate on their fighters has plummeted. This will allow the Luftwaffe to maintain dominance much longer than they were able to historically.

I said months ago when I was calling for reduced ops/flak losses that the VVS fighters would need to be buffed early-mid game, and I stand by that now.


This I could stand by, but how could it be implemented? All the fighters that the SU gets already have historical performance numbers and I can't really figure out a way to help the VVS without skewing production or performance numbers that weren't there.



xhoel -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 11:03:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

This will allow the Luftwaffe to maintain dominance much longer than they were able to historically.



But historically the LW lost dominance because most of the fighters were sent West, trained/expert pilot losses increased, there were fuel issues and because a lot of green pilots entered service. Not to mention that the Germans threw the LW away in multiple occasions in idiotic offensives that had 0 effect.

So assuming the German player avoids at least some of these issues, they should be expected to perform better than historically.

With that being said, I do find it odd that the Germans manage to get some really high kill counts in situations were they are heavily outnumbered and facing decent Soviet pilots. It is something that is being discussed in the dev forums.





AlbertN -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 12:47:41 PM)

I believe it's premature to say as the air war has been underplayed in general; so I feel it needs to be seen in situations where the LW is kind of forced to fly over and over and over if they can keep up that pace.



jubjub -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 3:52:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus


quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

The recent patches have benefited the Germans big time too. Since they're not losing nearly as many fighters to ops losses, the overall loss rate on their fighters has plummeted. This will allow the Luftwaffe to maintain dominance much longer than they were able to historically.

I said months ago when I was calling for reduced ops/flak losses that the VVS fighters would need to be buffed early-mid game, and I stand by that now.


This I could stand by, but how could it be implemented? All the fighters that the SU gets already have historical performance numbers and I can't really figure out a way to help the VVS without skewing production or performance numbers that weren't there.


There are issues with the current aircraft models and most of the discrepancies favor the Germans. One glaring inaccuracy is that the only metric that scales based off of altitude is speed. However, pretty much every statistic - climb, maneuverability etc. - should all vary based on altitude.

One problem aircraft is the LA-5 series. Their max speed of 559 km/hr in game comes at 3200 m, while IL-2 has the max speed at 603 km/hr at 6500 m. I think the reason why the developers were forced to make the max speed altitude so low is because they can't vary the climb and maneuverability metrics independent of speed.

Other values also just don't line up with anything I can find. Comparing the La-5 and BF 109-G2, the in-game zero-altitude speed is higher for the 109, and lower for the La-5 than other sources. This makes the 109G-2 faster than the La-5 on the deck, when the situation should be reversed.

Another comparison between the Yak-1 and the Bf 109E-7 shows that the Yak-1 was able to climb faster and turn faster (at all altitudes), while the 109 could dive faster. However, the maneuverability score favors the 109E-7 33 to 32. Clearly, the Yak-1 should have an advantage over the 109E-7 in some situations, but the WITE model denies this aircraft any advantage.

Another travesty is the Fw 190. This plane can't do anything besides boom and zoom - which it's really good at. It's terrible at turn fighting, but you would never know that based off of it's maneuverability score of 35 - higher than the 109F-4 and all of the Soviet fighters until the La-5FN comes onto the scene.

Basically, I would like the development team to take a second look at their numbers compared to other sources. I also think they should provide more granularity in the flight performance numbers and vary more performance metrics off of altitude. Additionally, find some way to give Soviet fighters the advantage in a turn fight that they deserve. This probably requires maneuverability to vary based on speed.




ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 3:53:22 PM)

The effectiveness of the German fighters should be reviewed, at this point in time they are conducting an effective defensive action. They sit on airfields and take off as support, knocking down everything that comes to hand. It is not right.

The success of German aviation did not lie in the performance characteristics of their equipment in the first place, and even more so not in passive tactics, but in an active strike strategy, organization of strikes, specialized ammunition for working on airfields - SD-2.5 cluster bombs

That is, for the effective destruction of Soviet aircraft, the German player must concentrate and continue to strike airfields after June 22.
First of all, it was fighters in the fighter-bomber version.

At the same time, in direct combat, losses should be an order of magnitude lower and not so fatal for the Soviet side.



jubjub -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 3:55:15 PM)

quote:

That is, for the effective destruction of Soviet aircraft, the German player must concentrate and continue to strike airfields after June 22.


+1



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 4:04:54 PM)

Right now, the main meta-strategy of the German players is to withdraw all aircraft from the Eastern Front to other theaters and instead bring more infantry to the Eastern Front.

German players don't feel the need or need for air support in the game at the moment.

The excessive fragility of aviation only contributes to this.

Only the Soviet side can afford to lose 90% of its aircraft in a sortie for a short period of time, but German strike aviation can also lose 120 aircraft out of 180 aircraft in a sortie. And this will end.

But even for Soviet aviation, such losses are fatal, most of the losses are not recoverable. And they go into the void, the Soviet bombers, for a departure from 200 aircraft on approach to the target, almost all go astray and, as a rule, do not cause any damage.

A reasonable way out of the situation when you cannot fly during the day is to fly at night, but the fix of night sorties has led to the fact that the losses that day and night have become similar. For 1 turn, the losses are approximately equal. If you fly during the day, then 600 aircraft are lost in air battles, if at night, then the same 600 aircraft, but already from OPS. The only difference is that at night, Soviet aircraft at least reach the target, unlike daytime sorties.



Stamb -> RE: Beta Patch VVS performance (2/8/2022 4:07:36 PM)

Now GS plays a big role, so we will see more actions in the air. Overall I agree that VVS seems to underperform.

In my game we agreed not to use GA as it is not intercepted, or there are some strange rules in order to intercept it.

And airbase bombing was (it was patch 0.15 maybe it is different now) useless.
[image]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/918092455516192782/935109102810587147/1.png[/image]

I lost 0 planes on a ground.

Remember any AAR where players use bombing for any other purpose then units? Except of loki and his railyard/depot bombing :). Indeed, but there is a reason why developers added all of those options. And there is a reason why players do not use them, as probably they are useless by a ratio of air losses/supplies and end result

P.S Absence of spoiler on a forum is just killing me as I can not paste images that will not create huge vertical scroll on a page...



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