Odd Combat Result (Full Version)

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ImperatorAugustus -> Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 4:39:12 AM)

Ummm, this was not the expected result... Someone want to explain?

[image]local://upfiles/83157/4E1B3F41C9FC43C5B3EEF1615EACAD92.jpg[/image]



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 4:39:25 AM)

.



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 4:49:43 AM)

Turned it up to 11, throwing absolute absurdity and only a litter better.

[image]local://upfiles/83157/D80134F99851486EB3B259202BB5D3A0.jpg[/image]



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 4:53:35 AM)

Meanwhile

[image]local://upfiles/83157/BE9738B710E0406087A01E7E29A655D2.jpg[/image]



Teo41_ITA -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 12:47:59 PM)

I cannot see your last image.



Stamb -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 1:25:49 PM)

What CPP does your units have before an attack?



AlbertN -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 1:39:20 PM)

I know the Panzergrenadier component of the German forces are awful and underperform - but I am speaking of the litteral ground elements.

I suspect the Panzers or so serve little vs infantry but I am not surprised the finest German troops seem to not exactly be that dreadful or achieve grand results. At least so I experienced in my game that went til '43.



K62 -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 2:03:21 PM)

What result did you expect? You can also try upgrading to the latest patch.



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 4:37:45 PM)

I'm not sure what in the beta patch will change this. I'm using the latest live on steam.

I would expect not to take the same casualties as the Soviets... Its a rifle corp that just expended most of its MP attacking and moving last turn, into a salient, supported by a tank corp with no tanks. Attacked by 9 German divisions with a ton of support artillery and many attached units. 3 of the German Divs have 90 exp. I've had cases where I've dealt 10k casualties to a rifle corp in a retreat with far less odds, and took less casualties.

I had an example posted last of the Soviet attacking me, but I realized it was not a good comparison as an artillery div was involved.

The historic case would be the Third Battle of Kharkov, where the SS corp annihilated the Soviets tank army, albeit at high losses themselves.



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 4:54:48 PM)

Just ran it again half assed. Didnt reassign the one pnz and only send 3 pnz in without attaching stuff.... Suddenly get this.

This suggests to me there is an issue with the 'over stacking rule' meanwhile the soviets don't feel this cause they can do the same size attack with 3 corps.

Tested again and even with the tank corp activating, a similar success occurs.

[image]local://upfiles/83157/559A8BA54B354643AE9B8DF2B393E4D4.jpg[/image]



Stamb -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 5:05:35 PM)

Is it repeatable, that if you attack with more units you get worse results?



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 5:24:55 PM)

I mean I was able to do it twice. So I assume so. The save file is linked above.



K62 -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 5:39:37 PM)

Yes I think you have it right, beyond an attacking force of 3 divisions your troops will fire less.

I've also noticed you don't have a lot of artillery SUs committed to this attack. As German, if you want low casualties you have to commit a decent amount of arty and/or bombers. Otherwise at short ranges the defender fires first and you'll take casualties before your own troops can shoot back.

[image]local://upfiles/6726/190C7C6820BA4C8A8614072A771778F1.jpg[/image]



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 5:45:11 PM)

Still not the expected result based on the manual. The units straight up perform worse on damage done and received.

Really odd since this unit is partially surrounded.



Stamb -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 5:55:08 PM)

In the previous battles there were more than 1100 additional artillery guns (which according to a manual suffer penalties only at close range) and + 280 AFVs.
Thus I agree with ImperatorAugustus that it is strange results



K62 -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 6:02:11 PM)

The "artillery guns" are mostly low-caliber mortars. Here's how it goes when you bring in the big guy SUs.

[image]local://upfiles/6726/11A6818062B04CA9BA446A0524E43252.jpg[/image]



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 6:23:59 PM)

Your example is not over stacked. I also achieved far higher casualties repeatedly without the guns.



Stamb -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 6:27:09 PM)

I run a test and got 7 arty SUs.

They are in different armies, so penalty applies.

But as we can see Soviets do not suffer more casualties but Germans do. Especially in damaged/disrupted elements.

Looks like it is not worth to commit a lot of units? 3 divisions is an optimal size?

[image]local://upfiles/82464/E443051A2B7B49548EC3F184E51640EF.jpg[/image]



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 6:31:01 PM)

Which is odd because 3 Soviet Corps are also well into that penalty, but from what I have seen (albeit in limitation) do not suffer as much from over stacking.



Stamb -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 6:36:31 PM)

And all units with a corps in the same army, minimal penalty.

Even worse result. I understand that each battle is unique, just to eliminate that -36% penalty from a previous screenshot.

[image]local://upfiles/82464/84689F166FF542CDBC0C3FFC57AC5299.jpg[/image]



Stamb -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 6:42:54 PM)

And to complete a test
replicated K62 setup, maximum arty SU


[image]local://upfiles/82464/A93950CEE961468CB8A412FC68AD394D.jpg[/image]



Stamb -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 6:44:10 PM)

And with only 1 SU

Best results lol

[image]local://upfiles/82464/0B3613B4FE134703A6C9177AE8E6105E.jpg[/image]



Stamb -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 7:01:16 PM)

What does this symbol represents? Arty?

If it is arty then with 1 SU I have 10. While with 6 or 7 SUs, only 20 or 30. What is going on there? (rounding, so it can only display 10, 20, 30 and so on?)

[image]local://upfiles/82464/22D200AEED67450A884DF50C8EF265EC.png[/image]



K62 -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 7:07:06 PM)

Nice extensive tests Stamb! I think this proves both points valid. Don't over stack but, if you have to, then use arty.



K62 -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 7:08:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

What does this symbol represents? Arty?

If it is arty then with 1 SU I have 10. While with 6 or 7 SUs, only 20 or 30. What is going on there? (rounding, so it can only display 10, 20, 30 and so on?)

[image]local://upfiles/82464/22D200AEED67450A884DF50C8EF265EC.png[/image]


Engineer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Joint_Military_Symbology#Unit_basic_icons



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 7:08:21 PM)

Sapper/Pioneer



Stamb -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 7:13:17 PM)

Ah, thanks for pointing it out [sm=00000436.gif]



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 7:16:58 PM)

I mean even then thats just not the case for the Axis it seems. I obtained a much more effective result without shuffling around the limited Axis heavy guns. Sure the casualties are a bit higher on my end by percentage, but honestly irrelevant compared to properly kneecapping a corp.



ImperatorAugustus -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 7:18:09 PM)

Its cause the units are disrupted and then dont participate so they retreat instead of getting smacked with real damage.



Stamb -> RE: Odd Combat Result (2/22/2022 7:30:14 PM)

I think CPP play a huge role here, and your units have smth like 20 CPP on average.

Current CPP system is really brutal, especially for the attacker.

Feature suggestion:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5147039



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