last stake in the heart (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945



Message


mdiehl -> last stake in the heart (5/13/2004 1:17:22 AM)

And just in case we have to listen to any more bs about superior night fighting and optics somehow being a match for adequatelt trained radar techs...

quote:

6. Yeah, I am well aware that Kirishima didn't have a prayer against Washington anyway. As far as fire-control is concerned, though, the facts are as follows: Washington fired seventy five 16" shells at Kirishima and hit her with between six and nine shells. At the same time, Kirishima was shooting at South Dakota (which was bathed in searchlights) and hit her once for sure, and maybe twice. If Kirishima shot back at Washington, she didn't hit her. In other words, radar turned in a much better hit percentage than optics, even when the optics were wielded by the best night fighters in the world at the time.




mdiehl -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 1:18:54 AM)

quote:

That's incorrect. Each shell from Yamato inflicts 20% more striking energy, and the shell detonation is more than 20% more powerful than you'd get from an Iowa shell.


Doesn't matter for squat if the shell is decapped before it even strikes the main armor, or if the shell bends on striking the main armor or loses its charge or fuse as a result of striking the main armor. All very likely with IJN shells vs US armor.




Tiornu -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 1:21:09 AM)

quote:

The appropriate links have been provided. Given that Iowa's belt armor was immune to Japanese shells....

As mentioned previously, Iowa's belt is not immune to Yamato's shells. Nathan's data there is incorrect.




mdiehl -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 1:22:57 AM)

quote:

Again, it has already been pointed out that Yamato's armor is almost as good as Iowa's, even superior in some cases. And again, this is irrelevant as the end result of the two ships' armoring is that Iowa is more vulnerable than Yamato. There's nothing wrong with the placement of Yamato's armor. It's a basic All-or-Nothing system.


Again, Yamato's armor was inferior and poorly placed. See the above links. And by the way, Yamato's secondary magazine was set afire by ONE 1000 pound bomb hit in her final demise. It was, IIRC, the second or third bomb to hit her. See Toney Tulley's TROM and final action report for Yamato at COmbinedfleet.com. Since her secondary magazine was poorly isolated from her main magazine, this hit WOULD have destroyed her had she not first sunk because of the numerous air-dropped torpedoes that penetrated her armor belt.

A US 16" shell had far more pentration than an air dropped 1000 pound bomb.




mdiehl -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 1:23:21 AM)

quote:

Nathan's data there is incorrect.


So you say.




Andy Mac -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 1:33:04 AM)

More than a lil off topic but what the hell...

Despite the fact that HMS Vanguard was commissioned a lil late to enter this debate how would she have done against Yamato ?

Anyone got any views




mogami -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 1:34:29 AM)

Day Time Surface Combat at 63,73

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Shell hits 25, on fire, heavy damage 58/44/38 (sys/fld/fire)

Allied Ships
BB Maryland, Shell hits 9, on fire, heavy damage sunk
BB Colorado, Shell hits 1, on fire 26/2/18
BB Pennsylvania, Shell hits 1 0/0/0
BB California, Shell hits 2, on fire 16/3/20
BB Tennessee, Shell hits 1 0/0/1
BB Idaho, Shell hits 1 0/0/0
BB New Mexico, Shell hits 3 39/22/7




Andy Mac -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 1:38:54 AM)

Wow bad result for USN.




Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 1:43:24 AM)

If md says iwoa is superior, no unbeatable, he must be true... because he is Mr. Allied fanboy...

i just wonder how superior his iowas had been if the sea isnīt calm... fast but not really seaworthy because of their small beam...just 33 meters... you know the tests in the atlantic... vanguard like in a calm sea and iowa nearly capsized ? but i bet mr. nuke bagdad can explain why this is also superior....

sorry... as someone mentioned, LUCK is the important trigger... just for mdiehl i wished a kongo had singlehanded sunk two iowas (and listen to his babble about "bad luck", "they treated"... and so on...)

and, yes... every sherman was superior to anything non-american, hell these stupid non-amercians should buy shermans, because they are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo superior (it is true, compared to a bobbycar this could be possible)...




mogami -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 1:44:19 AM)

Hi, The Yamato would likely sink in a few days with that much damage and that fire level unless she was able to go right into a size 5 port




barbarrossa -> RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? (5/13/2004 1:47:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

"Sorry, I don't think that you understood." No, I understood, don't worry. However, your experience is not entirely applicable here, as Iowa's original radar suite did not survive even to 1947. Her gunnery radar was changed less than three years after her completion. It was reliable out to about half the range your talking about.


Point taken, that's why I originally stated it was Mk12 when I was aboard. Probably dating from the Korean era. I thought about that coming home from work today.

Going on your assumption........Reliable to 40,000 yds is a might longer than Yamato could even see, and I can track you for a further 15,000 closing range before I have to open up which gives me a real good idea of your speed and course when I finally do. My FC solution is set on my spotting rounds before you can even guess on my range and bearing.




barbarrossa -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 1:51:16 AM)

so basically.......the IJN should have snuck Yamato into Pearl Harbor on Dec.7.......hmmmmmmmmm[:D]




mogami -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 2:16:27 AM)

Night Time Surface Combat, near Pearl Harbor at 112,68

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Shell hits 121, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage 16/56/26

Allied Ships
PT PT-22, Shell hits 10, heavy damage
PT PT-25
PT PT-28
PT PT-29, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-30, Shell hits 52, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-42



better send some DD as escorts.




brisd -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 3:17:28 AM)

Mogami - ouch, that is not good, those little PT boats wasting the pride of the IJN. Does that seem real to you?
I suppose enough torps can sink her of course but she should have little fear of their guns. Yes I know that DD's were designed to initially protect the battleline and I ALWAYS heavily escort my capital ships.

Edited - I'd rather just ignore people than get into name calling, so I deleted my comments...

Tiornu - Your arguments for Yamato seem persuasive from here.




mogami -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 3:22:40 AM)

Hi, The full name of DD "Torpedo Boat Destroyers"
There have in fact been several BB sunk by torpdeo boats.




Brady -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 6:43:33 AM)

Tiornu, I hvave enjoyed reading your comments so far as well, they have been very informative.

................................................
In UV I nearly lost Yamato once in a PBEM game, she was atacked by SBD's and TBM's, took three Torp hits and a couple 1000 pound bombs, had a very High sys damage and flooding as well, I was shocked in fact it was so high with just three aerial torpedo hits.
............................................
Mogami, were those MK XIII torpedos that hit the Yamato from the PT's?




Tiornu -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 7:30:51 AM)

quote:

"Nathan's data there is incorrect."
"So you say."

Actually, so says Nathan Okun. If you'd kept up with his research, you'd know that.

quote:

Since her secondary magazine was poorly isolated from her main magazine, this hit WOULD have destroyed her had she not first sunk because of the numerous air-dropped torpedoes that penetrated her armor belt.

Given the fact that the fire in the secondary magazine never touched off the main magazine--even when the secondary magazine exploded!--your assertion is unsupported by anything except your own words.

quote:

A US 16" shell had far more pentration than an air dropped 1000 pound bomb.

This would be relevant if Iowa were dropping shells onto Yamato with an 80deg angle of descent. Instead this is a matter of propagating splinter damage. The bomb has more than three times the explosive content of an AP shell. On top of all that, you haven't shown that Iowa is any less vulnerable.

I've found this discussion engaging for the most part, but I'll agree it's had some dross. Being so new here, I cannot personally attest that you're a troll as others have said/implied, but I'd say it's always best to avoid ad hominem statements like "you clearly do not know anything" and chest-thumping like "my pov is well-informed," especially as you've posted inaccuracies numerous enough to make me lose count (granted, I can't count all that high). Haughtiness gains nothing and can only cloud over the new information available from others. Barbarrossa knows more about the rangekeeper than I ever will, so I'd be foolish to distance myself from what he has to say. Everyone here can school me on matters of the war games, about which I know nothing. Why would I want to insult people who can teach me?




Brady -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 7:42:04 AM)

Tiornu, would you care to comment on the Yamatos torpedo protection, and how it compared to Other BB's like the Iowas for example?




Philwd -> RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? (5/13/2004 8:02:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

The Dunnigan and Nofi book does not warrant a reference here.
First of all, they are way off about the armor quality. Japanese homogenous armor was somewhat inferior to US homogenous armor (about 12% in this context), but against the largest shells, Japanese face-hardened armor is BETTER than US armor.
Second, the armor stats they give are just ridiculous. Any comparison of belt protection must go into a good degree of detail to give any worthwhile understanding. For now, I'll say simply that Iowa's belt was 12.1in, not 12.9in. (Maybe they're including the backing plate as part of the belt.) The Iowa armor deck was a lamination totaling 6in (effectively about 5.6in). The Yamato deck was 9.1in on the sloped outer portion and 7.9in on the centerline. Iowa's faceplate is also a lamination.
The penetration figures are useless. Penetration of 34in...of what? I'm guessing the book is quoting USN figures which derive from the old Thmpson "F" formula, a system not even meant for use with face-hardened armor. Yamato's guns defeat 41.6in of US armor at the muzzle. Iowa's guns, whose new-gun velocity was 2500f/s, defeat 33.9in of Japanese armor at the muzzle. Iowa cannot defeat Yamato's belt at 25,000 yards, and while an improved shell entered service c1945, I doubt either one can effectively defeat the other's belt at that range. The belts are steeply inclined in both ships. Iowa cannot defeat Yamato's faceplates at any range.
Iowa does not have a deeper beam than Yamato; Yamato has both more beam and more draft. Yamato's guns had a minimum firing cycle of 30 seconds, which is about the same as Iowa's.



Hmmm. I didn't realize Dunnigan and Nofi were that far off. They seem reasonable in other areas. Of course I couldn't verify their sources since they didn't reference any! I guess that should have been my first clue huh.[:(]
BTW I said Iowa had a larger beam when I meant to type draft. My bad. Though its probably relatively minor compared to the FC.

I am impressed with your knowledge. [&o] I find the subject of BB ballistics is fascinating and would like to read more. Apart from the combined fleet site where do you suggest looking?

Reverting to lurker mode.[:)]

Quark




Luskan -> RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? (5/13/2004 8:07:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: csatahajos

I think there are some people who take the difference between hyper-super dreadnoghts too seriously. Basically each of the modern, fast battleships (i.e. hyper-super dreadnoughts) have the capabilty to defeat each other. That means a King George V can sink Yamato or a Vittorio Veneto can sink an Iowa.

I think you make an excellent point. At the ranges invollved in this type of confrontation,
getting a hit on the opposition might be a matter of skill, training, balistics, and fire con-
trol---but exactly what was hit and the damage done is almost totally luck. Some ships
will have a better chance against others, but freek occurances seem to have been just
as important in the outcomes.


I agree.

On other topics - DDs dont do well enough against torpedo boats in my opinion (or barges for that matter).

If you're crazy enough to send a bb in without screening the PTs are going to get her although I had some excellent night combat in UV where bbs would clash with bbs without escorts (or maybe 1 each).




mogami -> RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? (5/13/2004 8:29:05 AM)

Hi, In battle with Luskan off Johore POW blew Kongo out of water with a single salvo.




Tiornu -> RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? (5/13/2004 9:16:06 AM)

The Dunnigan & Nofi book is presumably a decent wrap-up of the history of the Pacific War, but it is not good as a technical guide. I know that Nofi has loads of research under his belt, but I believe it skews toward history rather than designs etc.
In case I haven't posted this before, here's a survey of some of the more important guns from WWII. PLEASE read the caveats at the beginning and understand that these are benchmarks indicating maximum performance under ideal conditions.
http://www.geocities.com/kop_mic/
I myself know little about ballistics, and Rob Lundgren did all the hard work in putting the tables together using Nathan's formulae. I'm allergic to math.
For those interested in further battleship reading, the three Garzke & Dulin books are required reading. They cover all the modern ships. Friedman has a general Battleship Design and Development book, and he also wrote the definitive US design history. For British ships, you can look for RA Burt and the Raven & Roberts books. There's no English-language volume that focuses on French ships, but if you read French, go with Robert Dumas. For the Italians, again, you gotta go Italian and read Le Navi di Linea Italiane. The Soviets are covered well in Steve McLaughlin's recent book. Whitley is the best author on German ships, or you can opt for the various Koop & Schmolke volumes. There is no complete survey for Japanese battleships. Not yet.
Yamato had some serious issues in her TDS. One is the faulty joint mdiehl already mentioned. This was a flaw that the Japanese knew about, but they simply lacked time to design something better. In addition, the Japanese had extreme and unjustified ideas about counterflooding. This prompted them to adopt large void spaces in the outer layers of their TDS. The result was two-fold: large initial lists and difficult getting sufficient water pumped for counterflooding. In fact, Japanese DC was inferior in general.
Of course, when you've got a 64,000-ton ship, you can make up for some mistakes. Yamato and Musashi both stood up reasonably well amid their final air attacks. It should be remembered that the torpedoes that sank these ships were 2-3 times more powerful than ones that hit PoW, Oklahoma, and Bismarck.
The SoDak/Iowa TDS had some glitches, and folks may try to tell you the system was FLAWED (neon letters preferred). In fact, the problem was minimal, and American DC tended to be quite good.




Brady -> RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? (5/13/2004 9:26:11 AM)

TY.




Tiornu -> RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? (5/13/2004 10:15:40 AM)

My pleasure. I don't require much of an excuse to start rambling on.




Greyshaft -> RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? (5/13/2004 11:30:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, In battle with Luskan off Johore POW blew Kongo out of water with a single salvo.


I didn't know the combat reports represented individual salvos. I thought they represented a fixed period of fighting (say ten minutes). Or are you just posting propaganda?




Luskan -> RE: Anyone tested a Yamato vs. Iowa class slugfest? (5/13/2004 11:41:50 AM)

Combat animations show every shell. Yes I blew the Kongo away. With 2 15 inch shells at 7000 yards.

I also hit the nagato and mutsu in the same fight with 14 inchers and they did jack **** (well, compared to the kongo's demise).

However, I've seen Kongo and Hiei blast Repulse and Revenge to hell and then some once (they surprised the allies and pounded them both with big shell hits in the very first round of combat - after that the ijn dds put a long lance or two in each, and then the kongo and hiei pounded them until they went under).




barbarrossa -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 2:20:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Night Time Surface Combat, near Pearl Harbor at 112,68

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Shell hits 121, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage 16/56/26

Allied Ships
PT PT-22, Shell hits 10, heavy damage
PT PT-25
PT PT-28
PT PT-29, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-30, Shell hits 52, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-42



better send some DD as escorts.


But, the "immune zone" deflector shield thingy must have been experiencing fluctuations in the warp core!

Perhaps they were "proton torpedoes" that scored the hits.

Obviously, the PT skippers were experienced at hunting Wombats back home in Beggar's Canyon.[:'(]




Damien Thorn -> RE: Flat Earth theory? (5/13/2004 4:53:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarrossa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Night Time Surface Combat, near Pearl Harbor at 112,68

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Shell hits 121, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage 16/56/26

Allied Ships
PT PT-22, Shell hits 10, heavy damage
PT PT-25
PT PT-28
PT PT-29, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-30, Shell hits 52, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-42



better send some DD as escorts.


But, the "immune zone" deflector shield thingy must have been experiencing fluctuations in the warp core!

Perhaps they were "proton torpedoes" that scored the hits.

Obviously, the PT skippers were experienced at hunting Wombats back home in Beggar's Canyon.[:'(]


I think the PT boats were too small for Yamato's wave motion gun to hit. [:)] It may look bad for Yamato now but the damage always seemed to be repaired by the next episode.




rhohltjr -> Witpblazers (5/13/2004 5:06:44 PM)

quote:


I think the PT boats were too small for Yamato's wave motion gun to hit. [:)] It may look bad for Yamato now but the damage always seemed to be repaired by the next episode.
[&:]

All Admiral Avitar had to do was transmogrify the Yamato into its watertight submarine form and he could have bypassed those pesky PT boats,...and also thus snuk into Pearl Harbor too. [:D][:D][:D]




Brady -> RE: Witpblazers (5/13/2004 7:46:27 PM)

Tiornu, ty for posting the book's as well, I am always looking to add books to my colection and their looks to be some gtood stuff their.

How well would the BB S. Dakota, and the Washinton fair aganst the Yamato, what are the imunity ranges ect.




Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
1.140625