Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (Full Version)

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doomonyou -> Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 3:21:41 PM)

Listen up boys. What I bought from you is a PREMIUM game. I paid as much for this game and its attendant mailed cd as I pay for two normal games. Then I go and have to jump through more !@#$ hoops to download a stupid patch than I do to E-File my taxes off of TurboTax.

THAT ISN'T RHETORIC, ITS FACTS.

You know, one of my other favorite games hearts of iron by paradox (europa universalis) puts thier patches on the forums and you just click on the attachment. Many other companies have "auto patchers" (for example, everything else)

You guys apparently are too cool to have either.

Double register for your members area? Do I need a retnial scan before I unzip the file? Put your serial number in to patch? Well figuring out how to look that up only took fifteen minutes, then I thought wait I will just open that CD mailer and get out the Matrix CD because its MUST have the serial number on it.

which is when I noticed you don't put the serial number on the Cd. Which I paid 10$ for EXPRESSLY thinking that it would save me trouble with any future reinstall. SO I broke out the old black marker. Hey wait a minute, I am writing on your manufactured CD as if I just burned it myself. Gee I wonder if Doomonyou will ever order a mailed CD again?

super work. This is the kind of experience I expect from a game that costs 20$ not 4 times that.

Suggestions:

-Put your patches on the forums. I hate to break it to you, but if somebodies scamming you with pirated stuff, umm I think once they've cracked the game the patch should be really really hard to crack too.

-I am happy to throw a few extra dollars in to help a small niche shop. Put all relavant info on your manufactured CD's so I can find them a month later and remember why I bought it

-Multiple registrations for patches? Your "Members Area" smacks of people who cannot come up with a solution more innovative than my local DMV. Customers like to be treated like valued guests, and I felt this morning like I was dealing with the State. Dump this silliness.

-Wow. 122 mb patch. You may want to break these into more smaller patches. Even on DSL that just took the better part of half and hour. I can't even imagine what 56K people must be going through.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 3:28:07 PM)

doomonyou,

Hello, this patch is only this big because of all the sound issues and fixes. It has been stated that in the future, patches will be much smaller.



carnifex -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 3:48:08 PM)

quote:

which is when I noticed you don't put the serial number on the Cd.


imho the # isnt on the cd to cut down on errors

when you buy the game online you are given a serial from a long list of serials stored by dr

if requested, dr then informs the shipping mechanism to send you a cd copy

the shipper has a big stack of witp's and he takes one off the top and mails it to you. you get exactly what you ordered.

if the shipper had to look through all his stock to find the exact 20 something digit one that belongs to you, eventually you would have some people who got witp with one serial while they were emailed another. this isn't rhetoric, this is a fact of shipping.

both serials would work. you now have two copies of the game. dr has to generate more serials, stuff gets confused, people post on forums which one do i use nice service [:D]



Arnir -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 3:56:35 PM)

Perhaps I am missing something here, but when I downloaded my copy of the game, I used a CD marker to write the SN on the burned disk and also wrote it down on the paper sleeve I used for the disk. Is the issue that some people didn't record their SN and now can't find it?

I also registered the game a long time ago and seem to remember being surprised by some of the registration process, but when I went for the patch there was no problem. Well, no problem once I figured out to click on digital. For those having problems with this registration, look on the bright side: next time there shouldn't be any hassles at all.'

The patch size is huge but with the sound files it couldn't have been smaller. I used DAP and it speeded up the download greatly. (However, it appears to install spyware and I'm not at all happy about that.) All that being said, I would hate to still be on dialup. At the very least I would be looking for a local internet cafe with broadband.



doomonyou -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 4:05:12 PM)

I don't really care what the excuses are. This is the most expensive computer game I have ever purchased bar nothing. This particular patch experience was the most aggravating I have had in quite some time.

It may well be that there are people who don't care what thier customer experience is. I am not one of them. I like matrix and thier games, but they need to know that people (at least those that I know) have raised expectations when you price a game at nearly 100% above market. They should (morally and for business reasons) strive to meet these expectations. Now that I have pointed this out they can do as they will.

quote:

both serials would work. you now have two copies of the game. dr has to generate more serials, stuff gets confused, people post on forums which one do i use nice service [:D]


BTW that isn't the case.

That they don't put a functional serial number on my printed disk is BS because they manage to match the ORDER number to the CD which is linked to my specific account. This should be fixed in the future.

however snide fanboi comments do not help a business grow or succeed. There is no company in the world that has ever been built without customer feedback, including negative customer feedback.



Theng -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 5:00:20 PM)

My first Gary Grigsby game was War in Russia (83 or so?) and I paid more than $200 for it since I lived overseas then... As a student I worked for almost 4 weeks then to be able to afford it. $70 today is not a lot...

but also remember, back then it snowed 3 feet of snow every day, we had to walk barefeet to to school, which was uphill both ways, and we had afternoon sand storms as well. Those were the days!



olivier_slith -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 5:07:07 PM)

yeah, and I even needed a machete to cut a path in the bamboo forest to reach school...everyday...[:D]

Yes, It's an expensive and a bit irritating to have to download a 120mb patch. But, I expect to play this game for at least the next 10 years like I have been playing Pacific War on and off since it came out. I think I paid $40, I probably played 2000 hours on it, so I figure 2 cents an hour for entertainment that's really cheap!



Erik Rutins -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 5:17:40 PM)

Doomonyou,

I'm sorry you are so frustrated with us at the moment. There have been some growing pains with this new system no doubt. First, steps that are already in progress to help in the future:

1. Serial number will be on the CD.
2. CD will be shipped through trackable, faster shipping than USPS.
3. Members Area will be improved to make instructions easier to find and the login/register process more straightforward.

The members area only requires you to register once as a user. Then, for each game you have that has a serial number it requires you to put in the serial number. Now you're done for the entire life of the game and you can always see your serial number there if you lose it. We plan to add value to the Members Area as time goes on and make it a great place for registered customers to use to find important files and add-ons for their games.

The patch size was unfortunately not something we could control. The sound file issue only appeared after release and required us to replace a large number of sound files to try to resolve it.

We distributed our patches publicly in the past, but in the past we also had copy protection. This caused problems for some customers that were much more serious than having to enter a serial number. We were petitioned for years to abandon copy protection and go to a more customer-friendly process. Though you may disagree, this is it. We now have a generous back-up and personal use policy so that you can legally use your copy on your personal computer(s) and make a back-up without needing unusual cracks or an amazing CD burner. In exchange, we ask for a one-time registration to allow us to make sure that the patches are only going to registered users.

If you had problems registering, please e-mail us at membersarea@matrixgames.com and support@matrixgames.com I've heard folks are having trouble getting a response from membersarea@, so please also copy support@. Thanks.

Regards,

- Erik



bravow01 -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 7:38:20 PM)

well i have had no problems at all. dr download went fine once i got in. that was understandable given how everyone was trying to download. ordered the cd as well and got that a week later. been changing some graphics and that is working well. downloaded the upgrade yesterday. again no problem once i got in. have the serial number on my WitP tips and tricks .doc which i opened so no problem there. ran the patch and started a game and that's that.
i am downloading through cable which is nice but i don't have a problem with the price or the serial number or any of this stuff.

[image]local://upfiles/13123/Ay733833295.jpg[/image]



Wilhammer -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 7:43:42 PM)

it is a huge pain in the butt - I just got a 36% level server reset, and now I have to restart.

it does not resume - who set that up?

It is actually a huge inconvenience, but I guess it has to be, to try and prevent piracy.



Wilhammer -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 7:45:25 PM)

now it broke at 15%, and another restart.

I am going to waste hours today with this?



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 7:53:44 PM)

Get a download manager, that way you can resume downloads, and they can not break on you.

Star Download ( www.stardownloader.com ) is actually abit easier to set up then GetRight. You might want to give it a try.



Wilhammer -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 8:00:08 PM)

well, it completed, and it patched.

it hanged at 75% a sec, but it completed.



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 8:01:42 PM)

To make sure it patched correctly on the main screen, it should read version 1.20. Just FYI. Glad to hear it.



Fallschirmjager -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 8:36:06 PM)

Im finding the same people complaining about every aspect of buying the game and patching it and etc.
Makes me wonder if its the system or the user...



Tige -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 8:38:05 PM)

I don't blame doomonyou for blowing off a little steam.

80 bucks for the game, 23 bucks to have Kinkos print out the sometimes murky manual. A good 4 days of downloading for those of us on dial up.

The sound issue is one thing, stuff happens, but frankly I'm hesitant to start a long term game 4 weeks after release until more bugs are ironed out in subsequent patche(s).

I wonder if WiTP is caught up in trying to improve on the board games of yesteryear rather than improving the simulation of the subject matter. The no waypoint, no how thing jumps to mind as an example, it strikes me that gameplay should move closer to realistic mirroring of things like navigation rather than trying to make the simulation mirror the board game. In the 70s and 80s we had no choice but hexes and stacks of cardboard squares. Maybe it's time to leave the hexes behind and move to lat/long and map grids. After several generations of reproducing the board games it seems the ulitimate reproduction of the boardgame becomes the focus rather than the ulitimate reproduction of the conflict.

I don't want to sound harsh or overly critical. I think overall we are a tolerant bunch and respect the time, effort and hard work that has gone into WiTP and other titles. There are times though where some frustration and angst is applicable.

-Tige



SunDevil_MatrixForum -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 8:40:15 PM)

Tige,

You bring up some valid points, but as long as your enjoying yourself and getting entertainment from the game, then that is what matters. Most people have started a couple long campaigns and they know that they might have to start over, but that really does not take away from them the enjoyment of playing the game. For each his own.



IanAM -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 8:42:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

...we ask for a one-time registration to allow us to make sure that the patches are only going to registered users.



A couple of thoughts...

...I'm sure I've read in another thread that the patch is going to be available on your patch compilation CD...so non-registered users WILL be able to get it...

Thus surely the serial number for patch installation is enough...if a serial gets distributed with a pirated copy of the game illegal users are going to be able to get the patches installed anyway...

Whilst I've no real complaint about the whole system - it's all worked very smoothly for me - it does seem that it's the legitimate users who have to jump through all the extra hoops with the registrations and serial number entries for the Members Area...

Don't want to put ideas into your heads, but the only more secure way of protecting the software would be some sort of online activation of the game where each serial number would only successfully activate the game a limited number of times - as with Windows XP activation...

BUT I HATE THAT SYSTEM OF SOFTWARE ACTIVATION EVEN MORE THAN HAVING TO HAVE A CD IN THE DRIVE [:@] I do have a few programs, including a couple of games that use it, and keep wondering what will happen if I have to reinstall them when the company that has made them has gone out of business and online activation no longer works...



SlapBone -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 8:47:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tige

80 bucks for the game, 23 bucks to have Kinkos print out the sometimes murky manual.



Speaking of this, has there been any talk of maybe getting the manuals for WITP (and Starshatter also) on Doc Center so we can get these manuals printed at a reasonable price.



Grotius -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 8:50:35 PM)

I think the serial number and download process is a reasonable effort to combat piracy.



tsimmonds -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 9:07:15 PM)

Downloading the original game was a three-day ordeal for me. The patch is also turning out to be a nightmare; I may not be able to download it at all since my satellite ISP seems to be routing my signal through Voyager I. The game turns out to have quite a number of map, OOB, and functional issues with which I happen to disagree. Each turn requires thousands of clicks and miles of scrolling.

None of this matters to me in the slightest, I love this game! I consider it just this side of a miracle that it has been made at all. I know that eventually Matrix will get all of this ironed out, and I am going to play War in the Pacific for the rest of my life. I would no sooner b1tch about any of this than I would file for divorce because my wife snores. Matrix, I think you guys are great. It amazes me what some people expect for their paltry $70 in addition to the incredible amount of work represented by the game itself. People, it is a beautiful Saturday afternoon, and may I suggest that a few of us need get up and go spend some time outside, away from our computers.



Culiacan Mexico -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 9:42:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomonyou

Listen up boys. What I bought from you is a PREMIUM game. I paid as much for this game and its attendant mailed cd as I pay for two normal games. Then I go and have to jump through more !@#$ hoops to download a stupid patch than I do to E-File my taxes off of TurboTax.

THAT ISN'T RHETORIC, ITS FACTS.
I had some concerns when I first heard the complaints being aired: my wife has a tendency to clean my E-mail accounts and I wasn’t sure if I had any of my order information available. Marc Schwanebeck posted for someone else what to do in this instance and I followed those instructions.

Getting the patch was more involved than normal, but I have game that is not real ‘copy protected’. So there are trade off, but in my case it is well worth it. I am sorry you feel otherwise.



Caltone -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 9:54:35 PM)

Honestly I think any anger here needs to be directed at the hackers and pirates that force game companies to take counter measures. Stealing/cheating anything has always been the one act that just burns my bum [sm=00000003.gif]

I have absolutely no use for anyone that would ever do such a thing. Despicable

You have to realize that the folks behind this game have put blood, sweat, and tears into it. Years of their lives. And you know what? It was worth it to us. What a masterpiece. I have been just about giddy with excitement since this game was announced and now since release, it's been a blast, niggles and all.

Thanks!



Mynok -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 10:11:56 PM)

quote:

Stealing/cheating anything has always been the one act that just burns my bum


I'm going to be a nitpicker here. Illegal copying and/or selling of copyrighted material is NOT stealing. It is copyright infringement. If it was thievery, than the original owner would be deprived of the item. In no case of copyright infringement is this true. Of course, that doesn't mean there aren't monetary damages to the copyright holder, but it is NOT STEALING. The RIAA and certain proprietary software folks have used these words that imply theft as propoganda in their war to hang on to an outdated and non-competitive business model.

That being clarified, I totally support the good proprietary software companies like Matrix who support and listen to their customers, and provide a good product at a great price.



tsimmonds -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 10:25:40 PM)

quote:

Illegal copying and/or selling of copyrighted material is NOT stealing. It is copyright infringement. If it was thievery, than the original owner would be deprived of the item. In no case of copyright infringement is this true.

It might not fit the Business Law I definition of theft, but it is the functional equivalent--one person is deprived of something to which he was entitled (a revenue stream) and another person gains something to which he was not (intellectual property)--as well as the moral equivalent. A copyright infringer is a thief, regardless of strict definitions; if he could not hide behind pretty words, if he could not think as he looked into a mirror, "well, what I do may not be nice, but at least I am not a thief", perhaps there would be less of it happening. If you take something that does not belong to you, you are a thief.



John B -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 10:31:25 PM)

I guess I was probably lucky in that I didn't have any problem with the game download, or the patch (once those first teething problems had been sorted.). And knowing my PC and its erratic ways (a bit like having a second wife) I burnt a copy of the game on a CD pronto and wrote on the serial no.

And yes, I've now re-started the campaign game after installing the patch. Strictly speaking I don't think that's essential, but I'd made so many mistakes first time around (like losing two of my CVs in a way that would have had me court-martialled) that I was quite content to treat that first effort as an extended tutorial and start again. And am I doing any better this time around? Er, well, too soon to say, I think[:(]

Somebody like Matrix must make such relatively small profit on what are, unfortunately, minority interest games, that I can't blame them for taking steps to protect themselves from being ripped off.



mogami -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 10:32:47 PM)

Hi, I think it is stealing. The Cable company thinks it is stealing. The owner may not be deprived of the item but he is clearly deprived of his customer and he is clearly deprived of the "PROFIT" from his labour.
It's the same logic a newspaper or magazine seller uses when he tells you "buy it or put it down" Your not stealing the item but you are stealing. Using that "It's not stealing" logic it would be ok to enter a movie theatre without paying.

At issue is not whether or not aperson is deprived of his property but whether or not another person aquires "the service of" or "reward of" the product without paying the price it is placed on market at. Clearly the intent of piracy is to obtain said product without paying for it. And that is stealing.



Xargun -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 11:29:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomonyou

I don't really care what the excuses are. This is the most expensive computer game I have ever purchased bar nothing. This particular patch experience was the most aggravating I have had in quite some time.



You want annoying ?? Remember a game called SIN ? You paid your $50 (or around there) took it home, installed it and POOF nothing worked... The game right out of the box was crap and you had to download a 40 Meg patch just so it would run.. And thats back in the days before everyone had DSL or cable modems.. Try downloading 40 Meg on a 33.6 modem....

Personally I am happy with WitP right now and may never patch... I luckily didn't have any CTD or sound issues and did not even need the interim patch. I will probably patch some time in the future but for now I see now real point as the game is completely playable as it stands...

Oh BTW, I'd had the game for just over a month and have already gotten my $70 worth..

Xargun



vonSchnitter -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 11:45:16 PM)

Hi Gents,

just came home and had alook for new events on this board - like helpfull things on new findings, new errata, changes of unit mechanics by the patch etc.

And whats up ? A few new threads on how shabbily Matrix treat their customers. Makes me wonder. Really.

Here is my "experience": Bought the game a day or two after release - download went ok first go.

Installed it, ran it without any issues - sound or whatever. Installed the first "quick fix" patches - just to follow suit.
And enjoied plaing the game against the ai to learn the mechanics.

Did burn a CD with the complete installs - including a txt file with the DR confirmation info on the order and serial number. Thats it.

The game runs well - not a single hick up to date - and plays well without real show stoppers - in the self study department. Patches have been announced early and promises with 1.20 have been kept.

Even the download of the patch 1.2 worked at the first go.

I understand, that the wargaming community is different from the say flight simmulation crowd - a lot more of older ( not to say anemic) pc-systems still in use, etc.
But in any case, a little common sense tells, that it pays off to do some housekeeping on a pc - esp on an older one, to keep in good shape and up to the task.

And since we are in 2004 the news about the need of d/l managers to keep slow speed or just lousy and unstable internetconnections usefull should have spread a little more.

To me this is a kind of non-issue. It is just a couple of users, who have not done their homework. It has nothing to do with the game or the publisher.

Now for that serial number registration thing. Matrix just enforces the need to register your legal copy of a software product with them. And if you did, you have acces to the patches. This is just a kind of copy protection scheme, to deny "leaked" copy owners acces to patches. So this is - in my view - a good thing to reduce software piracy, may increase their sales, which in turn will yield better support and probably more games. It is a perfectly sound and sober business practice.

Sorry to say it: But all this type of bickering and bitching is just rediculous - in my view.

Cheers
vonSchnitter



Temple -> RE: Matrix has shocked me with this Patch silliness. (7/31/2004 11:57:46 PM)

I know this is going to be considered fan boy comments, but I didn't have any problems with the initial download, the CD arrival, or downloading the patch. I was a bit miffed at the tutorial hiccup that cost me progress in that, but it was fixed in a day so no big deal.

As far as the cost, well, if you consider $70 too expensive for a game that will give you hundreds of hours of enjoyment, but will pay $40 for a "Max Payne" type that will provide, what, maybe twenty or even fourty hours of use before you shelve it, then you should really think about your priorities.

I consider the money I spent as an investment in Matrix and 2X3. I'm voting with my money to say "I like this type of game and I'm willing to pay for it and deal with the complexity of the registration and download process, so that you will consider developing and marketing more of these games". I don't consider the PDF manuals a problem since I'm knee deep in printers, but even so, it's not that big an investment, about $20 for the B&W printout of the manual. BTW, I printed my manuals with a layout of four pages on a single sheet and it's quite reasonable to read, ask Kinkos or whoever to price it for you that way.



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