RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (Full Version)

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PzB74 -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/2/2006 4:05:22 PM)

I think the following factors are the most important ones regarding a2a combat with Zekes and Hellcats:
1. Numbers. If the Zeke is outnumbered - finito.
2. Escort vs CAP missions. When the enemy comes to us we got an advantage. Combine this with number.
3. Fatigue.

In order for the Zeke to perform it has to be rested, flown by crack pilots and defending their own turf
in superior numbers. The penalties for not meeting these demands are quite horrible really [:(]

It's a bigger concern that it's so difficult to launch proper strikes. Piecemeal is no good, we need
large coordinated strikes to have a chance of hitting the enemy.



String -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/2/2006 4:47:34 PM)

How good are your air HQ leader air ratings`? It should be quite decisive.



PzB74 -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/2/2006 4:59:47 PM)

Fired the Air Commander at Kendari for incompetence yesterday, he was a very skilled
but somewhat cautious commander. Uploaded the stats for the new one, best I could find.

Not sure how much influence these commanders have. Will make sure to have the most aggressive
and skilled ones in the front HQs from now on when I wish to launch important strikes.

Air commander at Kendari

[image]local://upfiles/1466/B6724A4784C740AD952E1F2F6F66DB0B.jpg[/image]



PzB74 -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/2/2006 8:04:26 PM)

Another not so enjoyable turn as Kendari sends out another half hearted suicide attack that
could have had the potential to destroy an enemy carrier task force [:(]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/18/44

Air Combat

After several days of trying Andy knows that I got a lot of ac at Kendari and
send in a couple of relatively small strikes:
Day Air attack on Kendari , at 33,71

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 32
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 2
Ki-45 KAIb Nick x 14
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 4

Allied aircraft
Mosquito PR.IX x 3
P-38J Lightning x 40
F-5A Lightning x 3
F-5C Lightning x 6
PB4Y Liberator x 6
B-24J Liberator x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 15 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 4 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIb Nick: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 4 destroyed
P1Y Frances: 3 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses - Somehow the P-38 now completely out classes the A6M5 Zeke.
P-38J Lightning: 5 destroyed, 1 damaged
PB4Y Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 5 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
14 casualties reported

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kendari , at 33,71

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 20
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 1

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 2 destroyed
P1Y Frances: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
21 casualties reported

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enemy ships are spreading out in all directions and these LCI's are reportedly
heading towards Java?

Day Air attack on TF at 29,71

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
LCI LCI-527
LCI LCI-535, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This strike was utterly useless! A 7-1 kill ratio for Andy.

Day Air attack on TF at 33,76

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 13
P1Y Frances x 8
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 12

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 25
F6F Hellcat x 39
Corsair IV x 9
F6F-5N Hellcat x 13
P-38J Lightning x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 13 destroyed
P1Y Frances: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
P-38G Lightning: 2 destroyed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The second strike was somewhat bigger and again a fair amount of Zekes took of while
only a handful of bombers took of. If the 70-80 bombers that stayed on the ground had
joined in......

Day Air attack on TF at 33,76

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 47
G4M2 Betty x 17
P1Y Frances x 9

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 25
F6F Hellcat x 32
Corsair IV x 9
F6F-5N Hellcat x 13

Japanese aircraft losses 'Only' a 1-2 kill ratio' for fighters this time. Why didn't the Zekes perform as well against P-38s
over their own base at Kendaro?
A6M5 Zeke: 41 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 5 destroyed, 7 damaged
P1Y Frances: 6 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 6 destroyed, 3 damaged
F6F Hellcat: 5 destroyed, 3 damaged
F6F-5N Hellcat: 2 destroyed
P-38G Lightning: 5 destroyed
P-38J Lightning: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships - torpedoes were launched and missed 3! enemy carriers. The damage cve's have been
'laid up' under a heavy P-38 CAP at Makale.

CV Formidable
CV Hornet
CV Wasp
CA Canberra

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x P1Y Frances launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The attack on these ships were not successful either:

Day Air attack on TF, near Makale at 32,67

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 15
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 18

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 7
P-38J Lightning x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 7 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 18 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CVE Corregidor, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G4M2 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 32,71

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49 Helen x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
LCT LCT-148
LCT LCT-354
LCT LCT-166
LCT LCT-167, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
LCT LCT-328
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My bombers refuse to attack enemy carriers when a heavy Zeke escort is available, but it's
ok to take off unescorted....This strike was from Macassar.

Day Air attack on TF at 33,76

Japanese aircraft
P1Y Frances x 18

Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 12
F6F Hellcat x 32
Corsair IV x 8
F6F-5N Hellcat x 12
P-38J Lightning x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y Frances: 17 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F Hellcat: 5 damaged
P-38J Lightning: 1 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We really punished Andy's mid ocean barges today!

Day Air attack on TF at 32,71

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49 Helen x 14

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
LCT LCT-141
LCT LCT-149, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
LCT LCT-353, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
LCT LCT-356
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Losses

[image]local://upfiles/1466/CB0D4D0606194883AF57BCF7FCE405AA.jpg[/image]

Getting a bit frustrated, mostly because of game mechanics but also about Andy's shoestring operations and the fact
that the game allows him to get away with them. Sent him a 'rant' mail today and explained my grievances:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For 3-4 days I've been trying to get Kendari to launch a coordinated strike against your carriers near Makale.
On a size 6 airfield with 300 air support, Air HQ and plenty of supplies there have been max 270 ac. 140 fighters and
some 120 bombers, all with high morale and good leaders.

Not ONCE have they managed to launch a sizeable strike. 80% of all attacking ac have been cut down in a 1-10
kill ratio.

It's so frustrating to work so hard to train units and prepare missions only to see your carriers sail in and out of a tiny
'arm' almost unmolested. Attaching a picture of one of the Zeke Daitais after todays single mission. Took 2-3 months to
train and one day to destroy for absolutely no results.

Makale, a tiny size 1 airfield and malaria pit is now reported to field 120 ac and 17k troops that have been airlifted and barged in. This ia an isolated base far away from your nearest secure forward base. The game is really enjoyable, but the shoestring operations into Sulawesi just annoys me.

I know you got a lot of ground to cover, and you play an excellent game! Still, I get so annoyed by the combination
of suicide tactics, that the Allies would never have conducted, and game mechanics that allow you to get away with it >:o

I did invade and capture India, and the game allowed me to - so I guess it's an eye for an eye. But please don't let the
game turn into a madman slaughter house because it's possible to make it so. When I put my cursor over Kwajalein I'm
told that there are 857 enemy vessels in the size 5 port :-\

If you got any issues with my game play, please let me know. I have and will try to play a somewhat realistic game, both in
regards to doctrine, deployment and realism. Japan was reckless in its use of men and material, and I try to simulate this by
defending most places to the end.

Had to rant a bit, annoyance has been higher than enjoyability for the last few turns.... :-X
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When this game started I was a completely green WitP player and during the years that have passed I've found many tactics and
approaches to be 'unworthy' and disbandoned them altogether. With the amount of material, reinforcements and high quality units I
don't think Andy have to take this game to its extremes. I've tried to be careful in not imposing any house rules, but when WitP enters 1944 I feel that things just take off completely and I fear what it can turn into.

Am I completely off here, or does my rant have any merit? [8|]




PzB74 -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/2/2006 8:31:42 PM)

As I consider it, Namlea on Weda was a daring success by Andy. It provided him with a forward base
that would isolate Northern PNG together with Kai Island.

Tomini and Makale have to be supplied by air from Namlea, a forward base that doesn't have secure supply
lines to the closes Allied base at Sarmi. This can only be achieved by using extreme tactics.

I had hoped that this allowd me to hand out some serious punishment: instead I lost another 500 ac [8|]

Strategic map: Makale

[image]local://upfiles/1466/CAE11EE50CD743B2B70AB184F2F069DD.jpg[/image]



PzB74 -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/2/2006 9:13:51 PM)

An update of the discussion with Andy:

As I consider it, Weda was a daring success by you. It provided a forward base that would isolate
Northern PNG together with Kai Island. This was a 'Market Garden' operation that succeeded.

On the other hand, Tomini and Makale have to be supplied by air from Namlea, a forward base that doesn't have
secure supply lines to the closest Allied base at Sarmi or Darwin. This can only be achieved by using extreme tactics
and makes me fear what the game can turn into over the next year or so.

I never liked massive air lift operations - unfortunately the game allows it on a scale that's not realistic.
After Ken's massive use of them, I wanted to return the favor, and did so in the bases you mentioned, but no more than
a couple of thousand troops were lifted in. Jap transports are small and fragile. The Allies got hundreds of C47s that can
be used for this purpose, and tiny size 1 airfields shouldn't be able to receive more than 50 transports pr day.
If there's already 50 ac at the base, there would be no room for transports ;-)

Guess you see what I'm getting at. I think this is starting to get out of hand and I wish to address it because it annoys me.
Must admit I had hoped you would loose all your carriers and pay the price for the the extravagant moves in Sulawesi.
Unfortunately this didn't prove possible. So how on earth will I be able to hurt you when you bring in the kitchen sink
in a well planned and supported invasion? :'(

Usually I don't care about lots of ships in rear area bases - it just illustrates the point. WitP requires a lot of player
discipline in 44-45 as units and equippment become available in enormous quantities.

I didn't especially appreciate how land combat worked in India, same with China.
So both land combat in China, as well as night bombing by non-specialized ac have been outlawed to make the game more
enjoyable. What I wish now is a discussion on on the use of other strategies that are unrealistic. I'll be happy to impose
restrictions on the Jap side based on your suggestions :-)


Andy McPhie wrote:

>OK a couple of things.
>
>Kendari not launching is a bad thing but not much I can do about it.
>
>Re my carriers you have achieved your objective I had to abandon 2 CVE's to
>get my Carriers out of the way it was just getting too dangerous my ships
>needed sea room. (I was sufficiently worried to LRCAP with P38's)
>
>Re the Sulawesi ops I am going to have to think about this one you may have
>a point I did over reach with insufficient force so to some extent I am
>trying to fix it. (its pretty much the first time since Kavieng that I have
>done so)
>
>I would point out that 50% of the troops arrived in a convoy escorted by 3
>Fleet and 5 Escort Carriers so I don't view that as extreme and I am
>probably going to lose 3 of the 5 CVE's and I provided an appropriate level
>of support.
>
>And as for fighters at the base most of them are inoperational I have fewer
>than 50 active aircraft there and always have had so I am less worried (also
>some are orphans from the carriers)
>
>Re Airlifting in Troops one of the reason Wasile has been so quiet as a
>bombing base is because I moved most of them out to allow me to base 150
>C47's there. As this is a direct mirror to Noemfoor, Kavieng, Sarmi, Nanlea
>and every other base that you airlifted troops in massive efforts to (and at
>least I had air superiority over the base in question and wasn't losing
>massive numbers of transports every day) then I am not going to get excited
>about it. I know Nomad did it 1st as the allies but to be fair it's a tactic
>you have used against me many times and its one of the reasons I am trying
>to keep a minimum of 30 operational fighters at both the advanced bases.
>
>Re Kwaj yes you have a point and it's a fair one but its not a frontline
>base it's a staging area and most of the ships have arrived over the last
>two weeks or so (I am sure you can guess why ;))) ). Now I could have just
>kept them as TF's and out of the port but for convenience I disbanded them
>so yes it's a fair critcism but as long as the game has the loading routines
>it has I am going to take appropriate logistical steps to ensure things load
>in the right way.
>
>The Allies would possible have just kept them at sea but for me it is purely
>a matter of logistical convenience
>
>Doing the turn now
>



PzB74 -> Strike Force spotted! (7/2/2006 9:24:17 PM)

Strike Force spotted!!

A more important issue - potentially lethal for our Strike Force - and still a much more
enjoyable problem: we have been spotted by enemy carriers! [X(]

[image]local://upfiles/1466/A232558A0EC7468591F39D51C2A4001F.jpg[/image]



Honda -> RE: Strike Force spotted! (7/2/2006 10:22:09 PM)

A few thaughts...
First, let's deal with the present problems. Obviously, there is a large allied operation coming. No surprises there. Do you think you can set aside some crack fighters to deal with the situation in SRA? I was thinking some 48 Georges and 48 Zekes + what you have down there. The idea is to eliminate the allied CAP and then bomb the bases to submision thereby destroying all the damaged aircraft on the ground.
The idea is to send all the crack fighters on a sweep mission of the most strongly CAPed base. In a sweep they should perform much better then in an escort mission. This should clear the skys to a degree where your bombers (set on primary naval attack + seconary airfield attack) escorted by green fighters can bomb the base and destroy the damaged aircraft on the ground (which are by Andy's admition abundant). There are 2 prerequisites:
1. There must be no allied ships within the range (that includes above all the damaged CVEs) so the bombers flying in the afternoon phase don't have any primary naval targets to choose from.
2. You have to be sure you can set aside the extra ac for this operation (the more the merrier)
So, we have an interstion situation with one hot front and one even hotter boiling in the cauldron called Kwajelain. Reserves sent to SRA might be just the edge you needed in a forthcoming battle but it may also tip the balance in SRA and give you a chance to retake the lost ground. That ground may have been irrelevant in PNG but this is SRA!
Risky however you put it but I also remember the last time I advised you and you listened, I had to go away whistling like nothing happened[8|]. That day I wowed never to advise you again. Now, I broke those wows[:)]

This turned out much longer then I anticipated. So let me finish with Kamikaze. Do not convert any fighter, fighter-bomber, bomber, torpedo bomber or patrol groups into kamikaze. Do it with VERY few Judys, a few float planes (those you have a surplus of in the pools) and above all do it to every recon ac whose pool/production can take the punishment of continuous losses. Recons are the most useless ac type Japan has in late war. So, put them to good use[sm=00000007.gif]
A beer for everyone who read the whole post!



pauk -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/2/2006 10:37:02 PM)

cant say that i'm a big fan of Great airlift transport simulation.... especially so late in the war... unfortunatly, there is nothing you can do about it, because American daddy is stronger than Japanese daddy in 44-45....

I'm afraid that i will addopt Nemo's strategy for the future games...



PzB74 -> RE: Strike Force spotted! (7/2/2006 10:41:15 PM)

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/19/44

Air Combat

Need to re-organize: Kendari has been left empty.

Day Air attack on Kendari , at 33,71

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
Mosquito PR.IX x 2
P-38J Lightning x 11
F-5A Lightning x 1
F-5C Lightning x 4

PB4Y Liberator x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 1 destroyed
A6M5 Zeke: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y Liberator: 2 damaged

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kendari , at 33,71

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 2 destroyed
A6M5 Zeke: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 2 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
10 casualties reported

Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 31,73

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49 Helen x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 4 damaged

Allied Ships
LCT LCT-323, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Elna, Bomb hits 1, on fire
LCT LCT-178
AK John Evans
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This strike would have been enough to disable at least 2 carriers of the Strike Force!

Day Air attack on TF at 104,45

Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 23
SB2C Helldiver x 56
TBM Avenger x 17

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
PC Kunashiri, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Strike Force Evades

A Glen spotted the enemy carriers and showed that 2 out of 3 TFs were hidden in squalls.
Only a single AO and escort were hit. The rest of the fleet now got a head start and the
enemy will most likely stumble upon more tankers no matter what direction they head in [;)]

[image]local://upfiles/1466/E78838EBF84F41149FF6AFD4F63EDB6C.jpg[/image]



PzB74 -> RE: Strike Force spotted! (7/2/2006 10:44:42 PM)

From the last correspondance with Andy:

Andy McPhie wrote:

> Well I am pretty Sure it was 15,000 plus at Noemfoor but we wont go into
> that !!!
>
> The allies did have better air supply abilities than the Japanese Um Wasile
> is supplying those bases and has 100k+ of supplies stockpiled (it was part
> of the original plan)
>
> I did lose 2 (possibly 3) birdfarsm out of 8 so this wasn't cost free
>
> I will agree to stop using Barges that far of range but deep penetration
> attacks by Airborne troops and exploitation is what they were there for.
>
> I mean I have a full Division coming pretty much the first real Airborne
> force the allies get and I have lots of daring raid that I was going to use
> them for.
>
> Are we saying I cannot ?
>
> Had you capped either base or say had it been Kendari I would understand a
> complaint but I hit very lightly (or undefended) bases then tried to dig in
> to hold them before you could redeploy.
>
> I am going to have to think about this one as I genuinely don't think I have
> done anything wrong or gamey (except possibly for sending barges that far
> after their milch cow AK was sunk)

Reply:

Not trying to distribute blame or anything. Been lots of operations from both sides that were highly
dubious in character in the past to say the least.

I would imply a max number of ac to ca 100 pr airfield size. 50 operational wise. This could apply up to
size 5 or 6. Above that and for rear bases more could be 'stocked'. Both Menando and Noemfoor held
size 5 airfields as far as I can remember. It's the shoestring type operation to dirt strip bases that I question.

Of course you may use para divisions and deep strikes - but keep in mind that the US were very
vulnerable to high casualties (public wise).

I've posted our discussion in the AAR. It's very difficult to bring up potential house rule issues without
incriminating oneself. What has been done in the past vs what can be done now and in the future. If game
balance dies completely the game will die as well. So it's pretty much up to you to decide how far to
stretch things. I will only bring up issues when I feel I have to. Guess the Sulawesi operation was one.

At least it looks like I'm going to be able to extricate my Strike Force from the Pacific :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




PzB74 -> RE: Strike Force spotted! (7/2/2006 10:54:38 PM)

These are issues that should have been adressed way back when the first major airlift operations took place I'm afraid.
Small things become HUGE in 44-45 Pauk......

Honda, thanx for the input [:)]
Yesterday our subs spotted 2 enemy TF's heading from the Marshalls towards the Marianas. AP/CV composition.
It's possible that Andy has already started his operation. I ordered all excess ships and ac to be evacuated.
Still got troops and supplies unloading and minelayers active.

Got big issues regarding how enough ac can be moved into their bases. May have to use carriers for this.

Regarding the SRA: We lost some 150 trained Zekes over the last few days and the Oscare pool is empty. Ca 100
trained naval bombers were also lost, so we can't afford to committ more ac.

There are so few George fighters, one 27 ac Daitain in Ulithi, another is training in China and a 54 ac unit has
just been moved to the PI. That's it! Frank is still 2 weeks away and the Jack is short legged and all units are
still training. Army bombers are woefully ineffective and only Oscars have the range to escort them from more than 6
hexes. A lot of Catch 22's....

With 17k enemy troops ashore, it would take the whole fleet and 3 divisions to ensure success. This we cannot afford.
So I'm afraid that Sulawesi is a tumor that will close down shipping south of Borneo and threaten both the PI and SRA.
This is later and not now though. Reinforcements will make it costly for Andy to move in. Got a lot of useless night
fighters that are prime Kamikaze candidates [;)]

What we need now is a good strategy how to defeat a potential invasion of the Marianas!




AmiralLaurent -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/2/2006 10:58:38 PM)

Honda, you owe me a beer...

PzB, I fully understand your frustation in one way, and in another I think that by WITP standards you did fairly well... You maybe lost 500 AC but you sank 2 CVEs and destroy 100+ AC in the battle.... How many time had a Japanese player lost so much AC to hit nothing ?

Actually the same things that made the Allied invincible in 1944 are those that allowed us who play Japan to invade Hawaii, India or Australia in 41-42: uber-CAP, no stacking rules, far too easy to replace losses on the frontline...

To reply to your question, "Must admit I had hoped you would loose all your carriers and pay the price for the the extravagant moves in Sulawesi. Unfortunately this didn't prove possible. So how on earth will I be able to hurt you when you bring in the kitchen sink in a well planned and supported invasion? :'( "

My personal point of view is that any Allied major invasion in 1944 (bringing all CV, tens of CVE, BB and so on) can't be stopped, or even delayed, by the KB, Japanese LBA or surface ships... Every attempt to do that will just cost Japan much of the engaged forces and so allow the Allied player to go forward faster.

On the other hand having a strategic reserve available will force the Allied player to only mount major operations. If the whole IJN had arrived in Sulawesi during this battle, I think you may have sunk 2 main CVs as well as several CVEs (CV airmen are more reliable than LBA). I doubt very strongly that you will achieve that around Marianas.

Then I hope your CV will escape in Northern Pacific....



Sneer -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/2/2006 11:13:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk


I'm afraid that i will addopt Nemo's strategy for the future games...


when I loose 200-300 planes /week in india i miss i did not go for Karachi too
especially I had bigger forces available earlier than Nemo ...

so every played game brings thought about conquering faster more and giving allied nothing to respond ...




Nemo121 -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/2/2006 11:37:08 PM)

And even in my game with the entire battleline ( 10 BBs and abotu 16 CAs) bombarding Karachi every 4 days in co-operation with over 400 level bombers and the equivalent of 12 Infantry Divisions I am concerned that I may actually not have the ability to take Karachi. The reasons for this are twofold although they both boil down to stupid, stupid game design.

1. Karachi gets 15,000 tons of supply per day whether besieged or not. In my current game it is obviously completely isolated from the outside world.

2. Reinforcements from anywhere on the map can magically teleport into Karachi and there is nothing I can do about it. Essentially the ideal Allied strategy at this stage of the game would be to try to survive in Karachi and then magically spawn all his ground and air combat formations into Karachi. Using these he could then try to force me out of Karachi and retake India rather easily.

That these situations weren't allowed for in the design process is, IMO, pathetic. It really is second-rate work. A city which is actively besieged should not receive auto-supply or teleporting reinforcements. That's just plain, obvious, common sense.


Every 4 days I cause 25,000 support and engineer casualties and even that proves insufficient given the completely hosed game dynamics. It is absolutely pathetic and I find it incredible that nothing has been done about it in the years following release. It is plainly negligent to leave this massive game mechanism so obviously broken in this situation.



Sneer -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/2/2006 11:51:17 PM)

i face this to similar extent in Chungking which is cut of from outer world for 5 months
i can't starve enemy - their number raises steadily
it is ground combat model that prevents from map conquering game
Karachi, Chungking, some elements in Russia...




timtom -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/2/2006 11:52:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
That these situations weren't allowed for in the design process is, IMO, pathetic. It really is second-rate work. A city which is actively besieged should not receive auto-supply or teleporting reinforcements. That's just plain, obvious, common sense.


Of course if the design was less "pathetic" you wouldn't be in Karachi in the first place [;)]



String -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/2/2006 11:57:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sneer

i face this to similar extent in Chungking which is cut of from outer world for 5 months
i can't starve enemy - their number raises steadily
it is ground combat model that prevents from map conquering game
Karachi, Chungking, some elements in Russia...




Everything is doable. I've captured Chungking with almost the entire chinese army garrisoning it. The trick however was to rout them several times earlier and several months of heavy air attacks.



Nemo121 -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/3/2006 12:10:35 AM)

Ah I was waiting for someone of your ilk to raise their heads. Interestingly enough you were one of the three people I was expecting to make such comments. At least you play to form.

I will respond to what you are saying with the following:
1. No, I disagree. There are many elements of an Indian invasion dynamic which are not properly modelled in-game. Some of these work for the Japanese, some work for the Allies. I'm in favour of everything being modelled to the fullest extent possible. By your implication I could point to the need to put down colonial disrest in early 1942, the work of Bhose, the failure to model the Japanese-supported Indian National Army etc etc etc as reasons why it would still be possible to be in Karachi in the presence of a more complete model.

2. I play the game to the full extent of the capabilities of forces modelled so long as they abide by Newtonian Physics and aren't clear exploits of broken code or game mechanics. Teleportation is not compatible with Newtonian physics. It does appear to be compatible with Quantum phyics albeit not on anything approaching a supra-atomic scale but I chose Newtonian physics as my yardstick.

3. Playing to the full extent of capabilities in a manner which the other side CAN counter is an ENTIRELY different thing than teleporting units and supply into the middle of besieged cities. If these forces and supplies had to be airlifted or sealifted in then I'd be completely fine with it. That has a basis in newtonian physics. Teleporting them in has nothing to do with newtonian physics. It is a clear example of a broken game mechanic. I used these exact terms when defining what was and wasn't allowed under the anarchy rules in my game so I am completely consistent with what I've said before.


And now to put the shoe on the other foot since you have, several times, commented prejudiciously... Would you like to defend the game mechanic which allows fixed coastal defences in San Francisco which the game engine rates as being so large as to be impossible to move to magically teleport across the Pacific (without risk of interception) and arrive and be perfectly emplaced in Karachi overnight?

Also I would be interested in what reason you can give for a city which is cut off from land resupply, sea resupply and air resupply receiving 15,000 tons of supply per day while in the midst of a major siege. Even assuming that the 60 mile square hex is half-held by the defenders are you seriously asking us to believe that 900 square miles of territory ( 30 x 30... a generous figure since Karachi is also a coastal hex) would be sufficient to produce 15,000 tons of supply per day? I would be extremely interested to hear how a square mile of besieged territory could yield 16.66 tons of supplies per day when even Tokyo does not come within one-tenth of that level of production ( it averages less than 1.4 tons of supplies per day per square mile).


So, rather than casting stones because you don't like the rules two consenting adults have chosen to play by please just actually defend those two design decisions. I might disagree with you but at least I could respect someone defending that. I definitely cannot respect someone who simply takes the opportunity to throw a stone and run.



Sneer -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/3/2006 12:16:29 AM)

we are hijacking PZB thread [:'(]
time to leave it  at this place and wait for next part of great war




Nemo121 -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/3/2006 12:38:38 AM)

Aye, you are correct. My apologies PzB. I would suggest not fighting all of these little battles and just storing up for one major battle several months down the road. Sure it will allow Andy to accelerate his advance BUT far better to let him accelerate and then hit a brick wall ( when he may have accelerated enough to over-extend) than to merely oppose his juggernaught with a number of small wooden fences.



Sneer -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/3/2006 12:48:37 AM)

i think that japan can't win or even draw major battle in this game any more
with combined strikes non-existent for LBA it is not possible and KB is out of game against allied main fleet body
i think that secondary assault axis should be used to inflict losses to allies
it is a mirror to allied 42 y strategy - to hit where KB is not present - just the opposite
be everywhere where allied effort is limited
keep objectived limited
saving planes doesn't make greater sense at this moment
to be honest after identiyfing main allied attack route fleet except from light forces should be moved out of area and concentrated somewhere else
there are 2 major attack routes
cenpac and PI
secondary in DEI - it would be too long to go for Dei and later north
so fleet operations in dei seem to have justification




Honda -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/3/2006 1:05:47 AM)

A strong high-quality CAP on the path of an offensive out of allied LBA support can do wonders. If Andy goes for the Marianas, the goal should be to keep the invaders on the beaches and starve them out. I know I'm getting very much ahead here but strong force behind fort9 and well supllied is hard to dislodge. And that's the current situation od Jap forces in the Marianas - a strong force behind fort9 with plenty of suplly. So just CAP, CAP and CAP and then LRCAP if his bomberdment TFs threaten the base. Best fighters on CAP and everything else in the area on stand down. After a few strikes from US CV TFs the escort fighters should be cut down in large enough numbers to substantialy decrease the CAP over them to allow a successful series of LBA strikes combined with still operational remains of KB. Since Andy is a fan of picket AKs there will be no harm done if a few AKs should find themselves harbored in the bases with strong CAP...



PzB74 -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/3/2006 1:16:32 AM)

It's perfectly ok to vent some steam and discuss doctrines and game policies in this thread... [;)]
Here is another mail to Andy:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please don't feel that you have done anything wrong!
Operationally everything's quite perfect: Me on the other hand is basing the justification of the game on political doctrines.
Based on this view the Allies should always provide max coverage to their operations in order to minimize losses.

E.g Market Garden was a high risk operation - but Sulawesi makes this look like a kindergarden excercise ;-)
You did what?? Send carriers into a fjord close to a major Jap base? =-O :-D

Of course you're probably not following the same guidelines - which means the game play is based on two different
strategies and doctrines. I guess you find many of my actions quite reckless - just like many of Japans late war operations were.

Me on the other hand doesn't really expect you to carry out high risk operations unless you absolutely have to.
Guess this is why I grumbled a bit :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Andy's reply:

Lol I am working on the assumption that I am getting messages from Churchill
every other day warning me about the risk of a soviet intervention (he
really doesn't trust them)so I am up against a clock here !!!

Sulawesi for me was very very low risk this Operation (codename Minotaur) is
considerably lower risk than any of the Hydra invasions that preceded it.

I was determined to try and sieze some real estate (not close enough to
activate the dreaded K) to strengthn my hold on the southern oil fields

I attacked 1 totally undefended base and one that was very lightly held
Market Garden was a lot higher risk than this about 2 Bn's of Paras landed
seized an airhead and then I sent in some reinforcements mostly by air to
tomini and by sea to makele.

I did take a risk with the carriers but I paid for it 2 have sank and I
doubt a 3rd will make it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think these different views should be discussed in order to make sure that
we understand each others point of view. Like the Nemo/Sneer discussion.
Both are right in a way, the game can be played in so many different ways...opponents just
have to agree on them. This is a bit difficult in this game since it includes strategies
made by 4 different Allied players [;)]

Wobbly is probably a bit gung ho like me, Dave is very consistent in everything he does, Ken
a mix of Dave and Al, while Andy is a methodical steam roller [:D]

Personally I think a coupe in India could have taken place and that Japan could have occupied at
least parts of the country. Much like France/Vichy France?

I remember when I played UV and invaded Noumea. Thought I had it but it generated supplies and
new units teleported in. Same discussion as now. Think Matrix made it this way to make such places
extremely difficult to capture. Personally I feel it could have been solved differently [8|]

In 'Hangover' I managed to capture Karachi because half the Allied Army was cut of in Dehli, thus
I avoided the super garrison problem. Still, any invasion of India is a big risk... But I also think
it shouldn't be launched unless both players agree that Japan is allowed to try.

Sneer; I'm going to show you just how Japan can win a major battle in 1944! [:D]
Behold the power of the Empire and tremble! [&o]



PzB74 -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/3/2006 1:19:30 AM)

I agree Honda! I will use carriers and the Palaus/Bonins as staging ground for my fighters/bombers and
rotate them in and out. I will threaten Andy's supply train and launch small bomber strikes but hold back the
main force until the enemy becomes vulnerable. Subs will sow mines and finish cripplies! This should be fun,
I'm almost looking forward to it [;)]



BLurking -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/3/2006 1:34:53 AM)

I'd like to chime in as a Japanese player at almost the identical date in a PBEM.
It's 6/2/44 in my game, and I'm getting stomped at every corner. I avoid the major battles, and try to pick on the fringes. The Allies had the capacity at this stage of the war to avoid every concentration of Japanese forces, and did so whenever they wanted. Only strategically important bases were assaulted, everything else was bypassed. MacArthur is not given enough credit (IMHO) for the bypassing operations he did throughout New Guinea. Airborne assaults and resupply were his forte - and the Allies should have massive capabilities in this area.
My two cents, but at this stage I'm not really fighting my opponent - I'm fighting the calendar. If I can delay against the historical timeline - given the game mechanics - I'll be happy.
So far I'm beating that schedule. Day to day combat sucks, but I'm happy with the strategic position.

Now if I can just make it another 14 days 'till reinforcements arrive in the Phillipines...



PzB74 -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/3/2006 2:18:43 AM)

Sounds like the right strategy Blurking! It will be a slow slogging match through the SRA/PI when
the substantial IJA reinforcements arrive in mid June. I know Andy can't get there before this date,
so I'm quite relaxed about the situation too. The Makassar Strait will be closed when Tomali and Makale
are expanded to size 3-4 airfields. Have to move in reinforcements and get as many resources and oil
out as possible before this date.

My new defensive line stretches from Java-Borneo-Mindanao-Palau-Marianas-Bonins
I still feel that one major battle will have to be fought: the one for the Marianas. If this chain falls
enemy carriers will make life very miserable and I prefer to fight a battle here and try to stop the enemy
for as long as possible.




ny59giants -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/3/2006 2:48:51 AM)

I have read both of these AAR's and feel this long term game has been beneficial to other players and the development of strategies to counter the super-Japanese early in the war (Allied players countering your seizure of India and preparing Hawaii from other AAR's) and now for Japanese players when the Allied war machine is a steam roller. I feel that the game mechanics could be better, but I don't know of any other computer game of this complexity that has been done better. [&o]
Reading this and other AAR's has led me to switching over to CHS games on an extended map so the Japanese can take all of India realistically, but the Allies have the Middle East to base their forces and counter-attack, eventually. That front would never have been completed closed down. That is why some like Nemo have a legitimate beef about how hard it is to take Karachi. I feel that base was not designed to be captured and now has been moved to the Middle East in CHS.
I think it is human nature to push the limits, in real life as in this game. The "game mechanics" allow players to do certain things - withstand combat odds of over 100:1 for months at end in open country. [&:][&:]
I will continue to follow these two AAR's and see how the USA alone will seem to win the war after almost a disasterous start. [&o]



timtom -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/3/2006 4:49:49 AM)

Seeing as John has given the go-ahead, I'll respond here - a response I feel is in order as Nemo has questioned my moral courage.

Nemo, I appreciate that you must feel badly burned by some of the adverse reactions to your AAR. I understand that you might feel raw, and hence the angry reaction to my little quip. We might not see eye-to-eye on certain issues, but be assured that I bear you no ill-will. If you feel that I have offended you unduely in the two posts I've written in your AAR that could possibly be construed as offensive, my apologies.

I think it safe to say that we all understand your frustrations with the game mechanics - I've certainly been there myself. But, to be honest, my sympathies stretch a little longer with players complaining they're loosing because of bugs and/or oddities in the mechanics rather than those complaining that they aren't winning fast enough because of same. All the more so if that player is clearly very deft, and, no disrespect, superior to his opponent.

I'm not going to answer your three points other than wonder whether your own might I say, for better or worse, unsurpased opening moves didn't belong in the world of quantum physics rather than those of Newton.

As to the two points you wish me to defend, I must desist. You make certain assumptions about me that I feel are unwarrented. I have no wish to defend the undefendable and indeed perfectly agree with you in your critique. It might be argued that the designers had to draw the line somewhere - by your criteria I garther metropolitan Britain would strictly have to be included.

However my point is a wider one: Rather that, to my mind, there are numerous issues with the game as stands, and, that if one wishes to start unpicking it, one has to be willing to look at the whole. Among those that would impinge presumably negatively on your current situation I might suggest the effect of naval bombardment on ground troops, the ability of naval bombardment to target everything within a hex regardless of actual distance from the sea, the complete absence of barrel wear, the overly generous allowance for concentrating ground- and air forces as well as the equally generous serviceability of aircraft, the insta-rolling stock railway system and indeed the whole logistical system or lack thereof that underpins the game. You lament the absence of any attempt to reflect the political situation in India: Presumably that would cut both ways, and incidentally the British garrison troops aren't included in the game. I take it from your post that we agree if not in the detail, then in the spirit of this.

Is maith an scáthán súil charad.

Respectfully,

Tom



ChezDaJez -> RE: Nakajima C6N1-S Saiun "Myrt" (7/3/2006 11:10:57 AM)

Hi PzB,

Let me add a few words in regards to your situation. I know you are frustrated with the uber effectiveness of allied CAP

I do not believe that Andy's Sulawesi operation was wrong. The Allies IRL tried a few daring operations during WWII that failed miserably. Dieppe and market Graden come to mind. My feeling is that grabbing a place like Sulawesi could be a good move for Andy or it could end in disaster. You are exacting atoll for his daring.

There is one area of the game (anyone's game including my own) that I do not agree with and that is the deliberate overstacking of airfields with the intent to use them to launch massive bombing raids or CAP. I have a PBEM going at the moment where my opponent has over 400 heavies and 300+ fighters at Pomala, a level 3 airfield. The entire area within B-17 normal range (10 hexes) is now off limits to any IJ naval vessels and all airfields have been closed. My opponent hasn't had to support an invasion with his major naval units or carriers in several months. My view is that he will move against the PI next and be bombing Japan within 6-8 months and there is nothing I can do to stop it. Most of my carriers and battleships are in drydock due to the massive B-17 raids. In one attack alone he scored over 100 bomb hits against 4 batteships from 300 B-17s. I won't even mention how many aircraft I have lost but my loss rates are close to yours and his best fighter is the P-38! Our game is only in 11/42! Unfortunately we don't have any house rules regarding overstacking airfields.

Anyways, I'm sure you two will work it out and come to a mutual agreement. I am currently playing Andy in another PBEM though we are still very early (Feb 42) and I'm gaining a lot of intel from your AAR!

Chez



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