The price

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Sarkus -> The price (9/11/2004 8:55:08 AM)
I see that Matrix has decided to charge $59.99 for me to download this game. I guess I'm disappointed by that decision. I understood the reasoning for WitP, but I don't think it follows for this game. This is not anywhere near the niche product that WitP is. I'd love to play this game, but I can't justify it at this price. Especially when I have other games that cover the topic. What do the rest of you think? Sarkus

JSS -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 9:46:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarkus I see that Matrix has decided to charge $59.99 for me to download this game. I guess I'm disappointed by that decision. I understood the reasoning for WitP, but I don't think it follows for this game. This is not anywhere near the niche product that WitP is. I'd love to play this game, but I can't justify it at this price. Especially when I have other games that cover the topic. What do the rest of you think? Sarkus Sarkus, I think $59.99 is a very good price. SSG has worked on this for a year and the game is simply phenomenal. BIN and TAO4 are included. There's at least another half dozen free battles that will be released thru Run5 before New Years. For that price I can't buy anything that compares to the value you get... - It costs me that much to take my family to see a movie (...and most aren't as entertaining as BiN for the one evening!); - I can buy a couple of movies on DVD... they'll each get watched 3 or 4 times... BiN will be playable everyday for at least the next year[:D]; - I can go out with my buds to the local bars once or twice for $60... BiN has yet to give me a hangover[8D]; - Comparable high quality software is way more than the asking price here (Latest version of Paint Shop Pro is on the local store shelves for $99)... I get a lot more out of BiN than my PSP! - There's many many things in the "entertainment" industry that I can't even do for $60 (i.e. take my boys to an NFL game[:(], see a concert I like with my wife, etc...). - Don't think ANYTHING my wife's gotten from Longaberger cost less than $60[X(] Anyway, long answer for: yes, I think $59.99 is an incredible deal for BIN. It's really that good[&o] JSS

marc420 -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 11:29:44 AM)
Ouch! Guess I'm not buying Campaigns on the Danube after all! Hey, I bought a 2CD set of live Grateful Dead for $18 and I'll probably get more hours of playing time out of that than I will from BIN. And those guys spent a lifetime working on creating that music. I'll buy it, but this game seems rather expensive. And I wasn't joking about Campaigns on the Danube. I've been eyeing that and thinking about buying it. But this is gonna wipe the game budget clean for awhile. There really is a freakin limit to this. For awhile I wouldn't come back to Matrix' site to even look. And I think I'm gonna have to go back to that after this wallet buster. I don't see Matrix releasing a game as good as BIN for a long time to come, so I doubt seriously I'll be buying anything else here after this.

pyaeen -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 11:44:38 AM)
BIN is a good game sure. But $59.99 is little bit so expansive [sm=00000007.gif]. I think $49.99 is more reasonable. Korsun Pocket is also $49.99, Across the Dnepr addon only $14.99. For compare, HPS Campaign series from John Jiller new games start offer at $39.95 usually (each game engine with some revise, like KP engine here, Although I think SSG engine change more than John one.). But SSG and Matrix's support is much better, so I think it is more reasonable start selling at $49.99. Anyway, I love the engine and topic, at $59.99 I will still buy it.

Kung Karl -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 1:09:53 PM)
This was really bad news. $59.99 is way to expansive! Lets face it, since matrix cut the middle hand the pricing only has gone up and hurt us customers. If they had continued to sell games retail we would not have had to pay this insane prices. This is what happens when no competition is allowed, the prices goes way up! If I had bought tyhis game in a retail store the game would have cost me $50 but that would have included a box, manual and cd and VAT. Now I have to pay $59.99 plus 25% in VAT and only get a file on my HD. Then add money for a cd to burn the file on and the cost for printing the turtorial at least. Matrix store is the most expensive game store availible I think. I'm seriosly considering not buying this game now.

theWombat -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 2:32:40 PM)
Pricing is a real bugaboo for wargame deelopers. Many developers have told me, over the years, that "If we could sell our games for $100 each, we could afford to add X, Y, and Z." Most lament the fact that while the costs to develop a modern computer wargame are increasing, as players demand better visuals, better AI, and a continued high standard of research and historical accuracy, the price the developer can charge has moved downward, or at best remained fixed at around $40-50. Combined with a very small market for wargames, we now have 1) fewer wargame developers, a mere handful; 2) a fairly static field in terms of game development innovations, with conservatism trumping moves towards state of the art design; 3) lackluster AI development; 4) a focus on "system" games that reuse core elements; 5) games that overall lag far behind the curve in terms of interface, graphics, and audio, when compared to other genres in computer gaming. What's amazing is that we have ANY wargames to choose from, and some that are pretty damn slick to boot. The upshot is, though, that if you want more "stuff," like good looks, enhanced AI, more scenarios, more "chrome," somebody has to pay for it. Non-wargames sell more copies, and thus have bigger budgets. They also have more competition, not only in the PC realm but from consoles. The only thing holding down wargame prices really has been the desire of developers to keep the prices within a traditional norm, but I suspect that might change. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Consider: Would you rather pay $60-75 for a more state of the art, more polished, more robust and more entertaining wargame that played as well solo as PBEM, or $40 for more of the same?

wodin -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 3:15:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DevilWombat Pricing is a real bugaboo for wargame deelopers. Many developers have told me, over the years, that "If we could sell our games for $100 each, we could afford to add X, Y, and Z." Most lament the fact that while the costs to develop a modern computer wargame are increasing, as players demand better visuals, better AI, and a continued high standard of research and historical accuracy, the price the developer can charge has moved downward, or at best remained fixed at around $40-50. Combined with a very small market for wargames, we now have 1) fewer wargame developers, a mere handful; 2) a fairly static field in terms of game development innovations, with conservatism trumping moves towards state of the art design; 3) lackluster AI development; 4) a focus on "system" games that reuse core elements; 5) games that overall lag far behind the curve in terms of interface, graphics, and audio, when compared to other genres in computer gaming. What's amazing is that we have ANY wargames to choose from, and some that are pretty damn slick to boot. The upshot is, though, that if you want more "stuff," like good looks, enhanced AI, more scenarios, more "chrome," somebody has to pay for it. Non-wargames sell more copies, and thus have bigger budgets. They also have more competition, not only in the PC realm but from consoles. The only thing holding down wargame prices really has been the desire of developers to keep the prices within a traditional norm, but I suspect that might change. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Consider: Would you rather pay $60-75 for a more state of the art, more polished, more robust and more entertaining wargame that played as well solo as PBEM, or $40 for more of the same? Well said. However I really do feel Matrix should offer for the same price plus delivery a boxed version with manual. Same as they sell HTTR still in the box. All those people still with dial up (some in the UK cant get broadband at all as they live in the wrong area) who may be short of the pennies will be put off. Also I really do feel this download way is putting off any new people to wargames/wargaming. There would have been quite a few chance buyers who would have become converted but I just cant see anyone not all ready into wargames buying a game by download. It might be a psychological thing. Nothing real/physical is changing hands.

stevel40831 -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 3:55:08 PM)
Sorry about double-posting... I posted this somewhere else and then saw this thread... my thoughts..... Let's see.... 1. Sponsoring a low-budget cookout at my house that last 4-6 hrs - $200.00+ [:)] 2. Getting my dog cleaned up after getting sprayed by a skunk - $125.00 [:@] 3. An old WWI map on Ebay - $75.00 [&:] 4. Two packages of steak tips from the grocery store - $60.00 (good tips!) [:)] 5. Two fill-ups at the local gas station - $60.00 [sm=crazy.gif] 6. Four cans of ceiling paint - $60.00 [:(] 7. Dinner out with my wife, 2 drinks each - $80.00 (she won't finish her 2nd drink...) [:)] 8. "Loaning" my sister a few bucks $____.__, fill in the blank! [sm=crazy.gif] 9. Two crappy wargames from wanna-be wargame companies that I'll only play for a few hours because the AI is horrible and PBEM opponents don't finish games because the game sucks - $80.00 (Done this too many times over!) [sm=crazy.gif] 10. A finely polished game engine which lets me relive one of the most important battles of the 20th century for many, many, many (did I say "many"?) hours against fine opponents from all over the world, and, oh, did I mention endless add-on scenarios that I won't be able to play as much as I'd like because I don't have enough spare time?? Let's say it all together... "priceless". Thank you SSG!! [&o][&o][&o][&o] We all have to make choices... here are mine in response to my own financial "events" above: 1. Instead of steaks and beer, we'll have hotdogs and koolaid... this will save me MORE money in the long run because no one will want to come next time! 2. Wear a clothes pin on my nose, and, he can sleep on my wifes side of the bed. 3. What the hell did I buy that for anyway?!?!??!!?!? 4. Hamburgers are good too.... and, they take up less space in the freezer! 5. If I fix that flat tire on my bike.... 6. It really doesn't look that bad. 7. With all the money I'm saving on the first 6 items I think I'll go ahead and do this anyway! [:D] 8. What do I have, rocks in my head? [sm=crazy.gif] 9. I've finally learned my lesson... [sm=crazy.gif] 10. Where do I pay?? [:D] There, said my piece about the money! In all seriousness... here's my only concern about Digital Download... if I hadn't seen KP in a store last year I wouldn't have known it existed. This is now the ONLY game I play because it's so damned good. I play 3-4 PBEM turns per night and shudder to think of what I'd be missing out on if I hadn't picked this game up and got involved with all the great people and/or opponents at Run5. I am concerned that there are many out there who would buy this game from a store shelf (and get involved in this great hobby) because it's "D-Day" but will never hear about it unless they bumble into it somehow on the internet (KP may not have been a great seller retail-wise because it's not a well known battle to the general public). I completely understand SSGs point about the need to make money and their reasons for not wanting to get bent over the table by retail stores. No doubt they've weighed this fact and decided it wasn't worth it. If this is the bottom line, so be it. I'll do my part to support this great company, I hope they are able to put out many more games in the future, and I hope they make lots of money on this game. P.S. My wallet is stationed next to my keyboard and my credit card is already half way out to speed up ordering time... I have cancelled all yard work, weekend get-togethers with the family for the next 2 months, and have managed to save a few "sick" days.... I'm ready!

Clipper1968 -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 4:04:57 PM)
Yes I agree that $59,99 is quite expensive for only a digital download and others options are additionnal. Matrix should offer a nice boxed version with a paper manual for the same price or we would probably be able to find it for a cheaper price through retail but it is their business.BiN will only be available through download and that is the way it is;if you want the game you have to pay the price...Even if I am quite reluctant I would probably buy BiN as soon as it will be available.[:(]and I will enjoy a lot of time as I did for KP and AtD.[:)]There are not so much good wargames currently available.Nevertheless the only thing I can hope for the future is that the price will not increase exponentially.[:-]I am quite fatalistic...[&:] quote: ORIGINAL: Kung Karl Now I have to pay $59.99 plus 25% in VAT and only get a file on my HD. Then add money for a cd to burn the file on and the cost for printing the turtorial at least. Matrix store is the most expensive game store availible I think. Just by curiosity where do you pay 25%? I am only paying 19,6% VAT overhere in Froggyland.[:)]

pahom -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 5:51:14 PM)
I have been burned on so many games and game systems. I came from the doom generation and have spent literally thousands and thousands of dollars on the latest first person shooters and video cards. Those games and videocards now sit in a box in my garage. I still play KP at least once a week. I bought it because I was tired of mindless shooters and always held a fascination for war. I am amazed that one game could hold my interest for so long. When ATD came out, I was amazed people complained about paying for a scenario, not mentioning that it was possibly the best scenario of any wargame period. Playing as the Germans, even against the AI, is a challenging and rewarding experience. Wargamers and wargames don't have to be a dying niche, but we'll have to pay to keep it alive. People updated their computers around Doom3. (Remember that this gaming system requires few computer upgrades.) Shouldn't we pay whatever it takes to keep quality, rewarding gaming experiences alive? Aren't we all at least week-end grogs? I am satisfied with the price of the game. Of course, I am more than willing to pay more for more features, new scenarios, etc. --when they meet the high standard of quality and playability that SSG games achieve. I wait anxiously on refresh at the Matrix webstore. Thanks so much for your efforts, Pahom

petdoc -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 6:15:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kung Karl This was really bad news. $59.99 is way to expansive! Lets face it, since matrix cut the middle hand the pricing only has gone up and hurt us customers. If they had continued to sell games retail we would not have had to pay this insane prices. This is what happens when no competition is allowed, the prices goes way up! No competition allowed?[&:] If its too expensive, dont buy it. If its good value (Iwould spend up to $80 for this gem), buy it. No one is holding a gun to your head, and if there is a company out there who can compete with a cheaper product that is as well put together, I say go for it. There is a reason that so few good wargames are made - there is very little money in it - it is NOT because 'no competition is allowed'.

Marc von Martial -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 6:17:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wodin However I really do feel Matrix should offer for the same price plus delivery a boxed version with manual. Same as they sell HTTR still in the box. All those people still with dial up (some in the UK cant get broadband at all as they live in the wrong area) who may be short of the pennies will be put off. Also I really do feel this download way is putting off any new people to wargames/wargaming. There would have been quite a few chance buyers who would have become converted but I just cant see anyone not all ready into wargames buying a game by download. It might be a psychological thing. Nothing real/physical is changing hands. You don�t need to download, you can allways order the physcial product. The download system actually generated more impulse buys as we can see from our customer feedback. The cardboard boxes (+ printed manuals / player guides) we still seel are leftovers from the failed retail chain experiment. Once they�re gone there won�t be any reprints of that. You will be able to order a "game on demand" (or however the top brass will call it) version of all our products shortly. This will be the CD and box together with a PDF manual, or the download only. We�re currently into deals with various companies to provide a cheap and good quality "Print on demand" option too. That way you will be completly free to tailor the delievry of the product exactly how you want it.

Clipper1968 -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 6:50:09 PM)
That is a very good news.[:D]Danke sehr Marc. Now I am wondering if I should wait for these options being available before purchasing BiN.[&:] What will be the prices applied for this options?

Marc von Martial -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 8:00:28 PM)
This option should be available (fingers crossed) with BIN beeing released. I don�t know about the price (yet), sorry.

Marc von Martial -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 8:02:01 PM)
Btw, for the manual print thing you don�t have to wait, this will definetly be aside from the normal game order.

freeboy -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 8:14:22 PM)
Thanks for staying on top of this.. In regard to the 59 vs 49 price..... guys, do you want to see this genre succeed? Do not begrudge Matrix a profit, and the game developers behind the games.. ssg etc.. or else its all the othercrap... I also include other good companies publishing games today, but there are few left. In its heyday a retail store would have in strategy alone maybe 25 title at a time, with dozens of fklight and ship/ sub and other sims. today these stores carry my younger nephews stuff, and thats fine too, just not for me... So will I support your freedom to complain about this, I do not agree with any sentiment that it is a ripoff... just look at the value... pbem alone will generate hundreds of hours for me.. also I will be fast at work on three new Normandy scens.... unless Rob, run5 rob, beats me to them!!! If ever a communioty supported its product its SSG and Run 5. Way Way back, before "game of the year" this game weas TAO, not TAO2 or 3, it was rough, and didn't get published, but was released to the public as a free game... and got lots of upgrades... And how many user made Scenarios? 12 maybe 15? anyway a lot, from tiny Kreta about taking Krete to the Fauklands to North africa, ATD add ons, Wolf Korsun Pocket add ons. Stalengrad area battles "Rommel Attacks" As well as numerous others.... Now we see its long a waited from the ground up redux fantastique! Having an IA that actually gives a challenging game. So I repeat my statment, please allow a profitable and reasonable price point for these guys or there will be no these guys left.. matthew freeboy white

Kevinugly -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 8:18:58 PM)
From previous price discussions I know that the box/cd/manual options were being considered. Once these are set up then I think we can start making comparisons with shop retail prices.

theWombat -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 8:21:43 PM)
I think downloading is the future of niche game publishing. Stardock is doing it, and doing it well. Matrix is doing it, and seems to be doing it well. With the proliferation of media burners, pretty much everyone can burn copies for archival purposes. And as impatient folks (we know we are!) downloading means instant gratification (ok, maybe not so instant if you are stuck on dialup, which is the only real fly in this ointment). And face it--paying the same price for a download "virtual product" as you would for a paper-n-plastic in the hand boxed game may FEEL like a rip off, consider that wargaming is not a mainstream genre. There are no million sellers here. No 500,000 sellers. Probably no 100,000, or even 50,000, though as no one gives out their numbers who can really say? Most wargames sell a mere fraction of the units that RTS, FPS, RPG, MMO games sell. Paying more for a product that costs less to actually produce (no cost of goods and manufacturing) does mean more money in the pockets of developers and publishers, but theoretically it also means more dollars put into supporting ongoing game development and new titles. Previous large-scale retail experiments in wargaming, from Atomic Games to TalonSoft, all went belly up largely due to the disconnect between costs and revenues. If the price for ongoing wargame development is paying a little bit more for a little bit less inconsequential ephemera, like boxes and printed manuals, I think that might be the only real deal that we're going to get.

Makoto -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 9:00:09 PM)
I'm hoping that we won't be paying extra for the manual, box etc. I'll pay 60 bucks for a game that's good, but I won't be paying 60 bucks for a game that doesn't include everything it should. quote: SSG has worked on this for a year and the game is simply phenomenal. Id worked on Doom 3 for four years and I got it for 50 bucks. [8\|]

Kevinugly -> RE: The price (9/11/2004 9:18:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Makoto I'm hoping that we won't be paying extra for the manual, box etc. I'll pay 60 bucks for a game that's good, but I won't be paying 60 bucks for a game that doesn't include everything it should. quote: SSG has worked on this for a year and the game is simply phenomenal. Id worked on Doom 3 for four years and I got it for 50 bucks. [8\|] Economies of scale dear boy[;)] One would also expect Doom 3 to sell many times more copies than BiN, therefore Id can afford to take a much smaller margin than can SSG. And yes I do know that Doom 3 was a very expensive game to develop.

Pustov -> RE: The price (9/12/2004 1:53:28 AM)
Actually what I'll like to see is something like a mix between what Matrix is doing, and the way that Shrapnel Games sells it games { CD in a manual } and I usually get it in two to three days. Games like War in the Pacific desperately needed a printed manual. A PDF manual is nice for a backup and that's about it. Imagine try to learn HTTR with out a printed manual...[sm=Christo_pull_hair.gif] I may be giving some unwanted advice to Matrix, but if I were them... I would put a whole lot of advertisements in their next game { G.G. World at War}. and would release at lease one game every other year to retail, and never drop the prices of their downloaded games. [sm=00000436.gif]As for me..I can't wait for BiN to be release....Long Live SSG.....Hu.Waaa...[sm=00000436.gif]

TheHellPatrol -> RE: The price (9/12/2004 3:20:33 AM)
IMHO the price is TOO low, i want to rest assured that there will be more to come in the future, and not quibble about the here and now. They make money "now", we "play" later...capiche?[:D]

mbMike -> RE: The price (9/12/2004 5:34:35 AM)
Well, you don't want to "price out" the riff-raff. :) The price IS high for what video games retail at. You could price WitP at $120 dollars and you would still get the same 3,000 people to buy it because they wanted WitP. But Battles in Normandy, while still a tabletop wargame niche, is about Normandy. That's usually enough to bring out the casual gamers in the US and Europe to take a closer look, but the price may hold some back. I don't really know, however, I'm no economist.

Taiko -> RE: The price (9/12/2004 9:32:08 AM)
I really fail to see what people complain about. When I bought my first REAL computer game, Ultima 4, I paid how much? You guessed it!!! $50!!! and this was back in 1985. I bought my first comic book for $.35. What do you get for that now? Movies when I was growing up were $1.25 Matinee. So I pay the 60$ for a game that will definately rock my socks. I played Doom3, not very impressed compared to Dues Ex or System Shock. Not to mention the game they ripped off to make it, Half-Life. Complain all you want; KP and BiN are instant classics. They belong up there with S.P. 1, X-Com, and Panzer general for "funness". Edit : grammer

rwenstrup -> RE: The price (9/12/2004 3:59:04 PM)
I've been playing SSG wargames since their first game...and computer games since the start. I've got to say that the Decision series and Steel Panthers are the two game series that are worth the money. These guys have earned our support. ...kinda like the UV/WitP series too...but it sure has a high learning curve. By the way...I love the ability to download the game immediately and play it the same day! ..just my two cents...

Montbrun -> RE: The price (9/12/2004 5:12:53 PM)
...I'm willing to pay alot more than $59.99 for a quality product in this genre... Brad

Capitaine -> RE: The price (9/12/2004 6:42:41 PM)
Agree that ~ $60 for BiN is very much worth it for the nature of the product. We, the wargaming community, must be willing to pay more for our high quality content than the average arcade gamer does for his simply due to the respective markets. Keep the great games coming, SSG!

Sarkus -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 9:21:41 AM)
I'm glad to see my post generated a discussion. While there is no doubt that many hard-core wargamers are willing to pay $59.99 for BiN, my fear is that it's too high a price for more casual wargamers and too high for those thinking about getting into the hobby. I've been watching this hobby get less and less mainstream with each passing year so Matrix's apparent strategy to just go after the existing market bothers me as short-sighted. In addition, two other issues come to mind in response to some of the comments above. First, I don't buy the "gamers demand better graphics" argument. While it's true that BiN is more graphically advanced than many past wargames, I really doubt that it required the level of graphics modeling skill of something like Combat Mission, let alone a mainstream title. Wargames are still produced with relatively tiny development teams, so it's not like the cost has risen like it has with other types of games. Too argue that the price must go up to compensate strikes me as flawed. Second, I thought the whole point of selling wargames online was to get more money to the developers? So, SSG is avoiding a greedy publisher's cut, a retail cut, and the cost of producing physical copies of the game, manual, and box, and they're still gonna charge more than what is the accepted price of a computer game? IMHO paying $50 under these circumstances is more than enough fan support. Sarkus

Fred98 -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 10:22:25 AM)
In Australia, the price of a first release good quality computer game, is AUD$89.00 It has been that price for 10 years. BIN at USD$59.99 � comes out at about AUD$85.00 � a bargain!

aysi -> RE: The price (9/13/2004 10:43:27 AM)
Good call Joe Dont forget the latest ps2 game clocks in at AUS 99.00,Maddern 2005 is that price and they will sell bucket loads,so many more than Bin i am afraid.so as i said before this is just the normal price,and cheap for a niche product like BIN

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