Rampant pro policy thread (Full Version)

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Hexed Gamer -> Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 2:40:33 AM)

Phooey, if people can rant aganst something, I can rant for it just as much.

If I get labelled for it, hey not like I am going to panic eh. I am already wearing several labels as it is.

Just read a thread at Wargamer lamenting the prices of the Digital Downloads, and how it is unfair or unacceptable they come without a box and pointless manual not to mention the file is not represented on a cd.

You people are whiners.

The price of the game is the price of the game.
I am not paying for a box when I buy a game!!!
It's a friggin box for crying out load.
Want a box? print out a pretty picture and tape it to any darn box your heart desires.
Manual? heck I can't really say the manuals I have gotten in games in the past (that came with them) amounted to much of anything infinitely valuable.
And a cd? for crying out loud what backwater part of the 21st century are you living in? Burn it to a blessed cd if you absolutely must see the program in a physical fashion.

Box manual and cd. They are not vital, the game itself is vital.

Oh but it costs 15 dollars more than this game here, and they have a box manual and a cd.
Arrrrgggghhh you are also likely pointing at a game I think is garbage too in all likelihood.
Because it's probably is an RTS or FPS arcade toy.
They ain't worth 60 or 70 bucks in the first place.

And one of my favourites, "but they already made the game the series originated with".
Where exactly does that matter one single bit?
It still took time energy effort and resources to make the new game.

I might maon about being inherently poor, but hell why not, being poor sucks.
But if the game is 60 bucks, then the game is 60 bucks.

Get over it please, you make newbie wargamers look like whiners.
Any old grognard will have bought plenty of wargames in their time where 60 bucks was just the beginning.

Digital download all the way, and no patches if you ain't got a serial number.
And I will tell you what I get told when it comes to upgrading.
If you have dial up and it sucks, consider upgrading to broad band eh.
And yes, I know, it might not be easy.
Now you know what I think of people telling me upgrades are just part of the process.



Goblin -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 3:07:20 AM)

Strikes me as a matter of preference. I will not pay $60+ for a game that has no manual, box, etc. Just don't see the money going toward anything but price rape. You prefer the download, no frills. The policy may suck, but arguing won't change a company's mind, only money (or lack thereof) will. I never did see the whole argument about it. Especially not enough to start another thread on it...


Goblin



freeboy -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 3:33:39 AM)

Well wit h BIN you are getting probably in the next year maybe 15 games... in addition to the scenarios already with the game .. so 60 is a bargain.. imo



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 3:40:08 AM)

My question though Goblin is this, if you won't pay 60 bucks sans box manual cd, would you assume the game was only worth 40 bucks?

This of course assumes you think the box manual cd were ever part of the 60 bucks in the first place.

If it was the same game, every bit as good as this digital download, came with a box manual and cd, was sold retail, and never was there any mention of a digital download, but priced at 75 bucks to cover the added expense of a box manual and cd, would you have ever contemplated what is clearly going to be a well thought of game in light of what has already been said of Korsun Pocket.

After all, some have said Korsun Pocket is one of the best wargames ever made. A plenty solid vote of confidence if you ask me.

I have myself, never seen the 60 bucks as anything other than what it is, the stated price for the game.



Goblin -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 4:02:50 AM)

No game is worth $75. Box or not. Thats where I just wait to be called a thief again when it goes into the bargain bin or on sale at a yard sale.

The main thing game companies claim is that the prices for the games are so high because of the CD, box, advertising, and manual. You see it in all the gaming mags. "The game will be $55 because of..." type thing.

Now you have a game that may be $60, without any of that stuff. Why the price? Because thats what they want for it, which is cool. Doesn't mean I'm going to buy it when I enjoy the games that have the 'extras' and cost less at the same time.

Like I said, its a matter of preference, and know one is going to change someone elses preference about things. I won't change your any more than you will change mine. Doesn't mean anyone should be put down about how they feel though, which is the main reason I even posted in a subject I usually avoid.


Goblin



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 4:23:06 AM)

Ok I can relate to that Goblin :)

Me, I have paid up to 35 bucks Canadian for an ASL Annual (back when they were a new and current item). Just a dumb magazine really. But it made a substantial impact on my ability to play the game.

ASL rule book back when it was a new item and the original edition, cost me 70 bucks. It was just 4 chapters of substantially challenging text. No game just a manual.

Some might think 70 bucks and it is ONLY a manual would have to be insane.
But here I sit, I have spent well past a 1000 bucks on ASL, and I doubt I am finished.
I guess some could say, couldn't they have just released a single game box, with a manuaal and all the boards counters you needed in one package?
Actually they did hehe, it was called Squad Leader :)

Not all games are worth the same amount though.

If I "thought" BiN was only worth 40 bucks, then I guess I would refuse to pay 60 for it in the end, regardless of how it was sold.

So that means I suppose, we are not discussing the pricing policy by the sounds of things, but qualitative assessment of the assumed "real" worth of the game to both of us.

I have seen several games myself for instance, either on my machine because I had the game, or on another's machine because they had the game, and some of my responses have been, what garbage, the game is not even worth anything at all.

For instance, I saw HoI at 70 bucks Canadian on the shelf here.
I would not even expend the hard drive space for a free copy.

I have Uncommon Valour, which is why I have no qualms about WitP going for 92 Canadian.
A lot of money 92 Canadian. But it's a lot of game.

Chances are I will be picking up a couple of cheaper titles beforehand, but that doesn't impact my assessment of the worth of WitP.



Goblin -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 4:29:16 AM)

You are correct. It is the relative worth to each individual that makes a persons decision for them. I've got over $1k worth of role-playing books accumulated over the years now, and it was worth it to me. My brother wouldn't pay five bucks for a book, but has a nice collection of junked cars that he fixes up. I wouldn't pay five bucks for one of them either, lol.


Goblin



Orzel Bialy -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 4:39:33 AM)

So let's see...the idea of some people voicing a concern (at other forums) over the very real corporate-world tendency to price gouge a bit here and there (which to deny it doesn't happen with gasoline, food and games would be a VERY naive stance to take in the modern world of greed ) has offended you so much that you felt the need to post a thread critical of their position? [8|]

Perhaps you shoud spend more time playing and enjoying the games you purchase at (inflated) full price and spend less time ranting on those people who don't feel the same as you.



Bernie -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 5:15:25 AM)

I have to take exception to the position that an "anti-rant" makes it OK to post a "pro-rant". Particularly when the anti-rant is on one system, and the pro-rant is on another. IMHO, neither is very good for the hobby. A rant, by definition, is a rather selfish act. It serves very little purpose, other than letting the person who posted it vent their feelings.

OTOH, a good discussion about the various pros and cons, in this case regarding price and packaging, does the community, and the manufacturers, a great service. It's customer feedback, something any good company wants.

On the subject of preferences, I'd have to say I favor the "box, manual, and CD" package. Digital downloads are fine, for some folks, but not for everyone. Some of us DO read the manual, and it's much easier to do so when it's sitting in black & white on your desk, than if it's in a PDF somewhere on the HD. Yes, you can print out the PDF version if you want, and have a ream of paper and an ink cartridge (or two) you care to expend. Personally, with the price of ink cartridges these days, I feel that cost should be considered when the consumer "prices" a game to buy. ("Let's see, both games are $60, but this one I have to print my own manual, which will take an hour or more, use a cartridge worth $35, and a package of paper. That makes the actual cost to me closer to $100 than $60. I'll buy the other.") Having the CD is also important, in case you ever need to reinstall the game. It's not a perfect world out there, computers die, and so do HD's. Lastly, broadband isn't an option for everyone, no matter how much you might want it. It may not just be difficult to get but, as in my case, simply not available to you at any price, so you're stuck with dial-up.

There's always another side to the coin.



EricGuitarJames -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 5:26:30 AM)

Now Orzel, that's a bit harsh. Some of the criticisms of the price policy have been 'forthright' to say the least and our friend 'Hexed' (who I think you're directing your post at[:)]) is only really responding in kind. Now the game is available to us UK gamers at 33.99GBP which is 11GBP cheaper than the recommended retail for 'Doom 3'. A suitable box (DVD style I believe) is going to be available with the CD although the price for this hasn't been fixed as yet. Once I know then I will make a decision as to whether it's worth purchasing if I feel the need to. The question of whether Matrix has priced it correctly will be answered by the number of sales over the medium term. Those who feel the price is too high won't buy and if there's enough of them SSG and Matrix will be in serious financial trouble.



Orzel Bialy -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 5:55:22 AM)

I think people have the right to question prices...plain and simple...just as much as companies have to try to validate those prices.

When computer games were coming with boxes and manuals and some even with extra "goodies" just about every game company I know made reference to the costs involved with all of those items. Eventually, in the name of keeping prices in check while at the same time getting some extra margin in the face of fierce competition, one by one the "extras" disappeared. I can understand that...it's a business after all.

However when the concept of downloading games came along it was hailed as the future of how business would be done...a way for companies to save money buy cutting back expenses and overhead...some of which that they claimed they could then pass on to the consumers. We all heard it...I did. Well guess what?...no box, no manual and no cd even and what has happened to prices?

So what is wrong with people asking why? They were told/heard one thing and haven't seen it come to pass...what's wrong with people asking for an honest answer? They are entitled to it in my opinion because they are going off what the industry feed them via various media outlets.

Personally I don't care enough either way really. But because I may or may not be willing to pay 60-70 bucks for a computer game doesn't give me the right to say the other people are wrong for voicing up their position. If HG doesn't like to see people asking questions then he shouldn't read the threads...instead of taking up a torch to denounce them.



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 6:13:47 AM)

You need more fibre in your diet Orzel :)

I never said people couldn't disagree, I merely said phooey on people thinking the game was over priced.

I think any "good" computer wargame under 100 bucks is just a computer wargame under 100 bucks.

To me seriously priced wargames BEGIN at 100 bucks.

If the hobby dies down due to fewer people buying based on a refusal to pay more than 40 bucks come hell or high water, it will just mean the computer wargame industry might have a die off of superfluous companies, and that might be that.

Board game wargames were getting a bit to flashy in the 80s if you ask me, and some of the chrome was really just chrome.

Maybe our computer wargames need to try and slow down the chrome obsession.
Let the designers get in some designing, without the need to constantly absorb demands for yet more discovered bells and whistles.



Orzel Bialy -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 6:40:08 AM)

The fact that you think games begin at 100 is fine...crazy to me and probably others...but fine. I, personally, would never pay that much for a game, regardless of graphic and goodies...unless it could also do laundry and wash my car for me. But that is your choice and that is my choice.

Speaking of choices...let us not forget that the various game companies are in the industry by their own choice too. And it's the choices that they have made in regard to the types of games they have chosen to develop that have feed the fires that have kept prices up.

By pandering to the game counsel generation that can't accept a game that doesn't have 3D renderings and game characters that are real enough to have bad breath...and consist of just shooting everything in sight, many have fallen into the tigerpit and will indeed probably fade away.

Anyway...I just don't understand why you seem to think your concept of how much a game is worth should be accepted by all as some sort of rational standard. Live and let live...agree to disagree. Why even start a flame thread that rallys against flame threads? [&:]



tracer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 6:45:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
To me seriously priced wargames BEGIN at 100 bucks.


I agree 110%: any wargame costing over a c-note is seriously priced. [sm=00000622.gif]



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 7:24:48 AM)

Anyway...I just don't understand why you seem to think your concept of how much a game is worth should be accepted by all as some sort of rational standard.

Just basically stating Orzel, I think claiming a game HAS to be made UNDER 40 bucks is equally unreasonable.

EVERY single GOOD game I own is well over 100 bucks.
Well every board game that is.

I have yet to ever spend over 100 bucks on any computer wargame ever.

Which explains why I call ALL computer wargames INEXPENSIVE :)

Which is why I can but only chuckle at people crying over how paying 60 bucks for an admittedly good game is such a horrible affront to reasonable marketing :)

I think, more or less, computer wargamers are spoiled.
Well actually, I think anyone that plays games not based on board games are inherently spoiled.
I think the hobby is full of people that are inherently being overly spoiled.
I know I feel spoiled :)

It's hard to find sympathy for someone complaining about buying a very complete computer program like Bin, when I am going to have to pay well over 100 bucks for the Armies of Oblivion module for ASL, and most of the fans don't really seem to care, they just want it.
And AoO is just a module, not a complete game. And it's not even a fundemental module.

Computer wargamers have it soft if you ask me.
Time for all you computer wargamers to stop crying and act like serious wargamers.



tracer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 7:31:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer
I think, more or less, computer wargamers are spoiled.
Well actually, I think anyone that plays games not based on board games are inherently spoiled.
I think the hobby is full of people that are inherently being overly spoiled.
I know I feel spoiled :)

It's hard to find sympathy for someone complaining about buying a very complete computer program like Bin, when I am going to have to pay well over 100 bucks for the Armies of Oblivion module for ASL, and most of the fans don't really seem to care, they just want it.
And AoO is just a module, not a complete game. And it's not even a fundemental module.

Computer wargamers have it soft if you ask me.
Time for all you computer wargamers to stop crying and act like serious wargamers.


Wait a minute, I've seen this same 'opinion' posted here several times over the past few years...are you Les-the-Sarge??



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 7:54:08 AM)

Well hell isn't it obvious Tracer :)

Who forgot to send Tracer the memo hehe



macgregor -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 8:09:13 AM)

I will say that War in the Pacific looks interesting. But I've got games that cover that scenario and have decided that particular price is too high for me. But I won't complain about the price. When 'World in Flames' comes out I will probably buy it regardless of the price though I may wait awhile if I find it insultingly high(over 100$). I think that when you rationalize an injustice, you become complicit and can expect more injustice. I refuse to do that. I'll call it as I see it. If I think the price is too high , I simply won't buy the product. Let me get this straight. You'll cough up the dough for whatever game because it lifts you to a higher level than "newbie gamers". I guess that's why you're a matrix hero.



bostonrpgmania -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 9:12:33 AM)

I see a point in Hexed gamer's opinion
But also I see a point from another posters here as well

For me, I am a gamer but not dediciated war gamer
I have diverse portfolio of games covering many different topics (even SIMS..(for my wife)[:D])
In that case, if I am not that devoted to a particular genre, entry level price might be a hurdle (suppose I am playing WitP not very long but about a month or two and moves to the other games (Say Doom 3 only lasted for me about a month (yeah I know some people finished it in about a day or two..and it took me a MONTH GOSH..)
then maybe I think the price of 60 or 70 seems high (not to say that the game is not worth it but the price is high for my gaming habit). Also I am a game collector, thus box, cover arts count for me. And it would have been great if 60 or 70 comes with at least a bot even not manual.



Hertston -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 10:01:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Now the game is available to us UK gamers at 33.99GBP which is 11GBP cheaper than the recommended retail for 'Doom 3'.


Firstly, that 33.99 is NET of VAT.. they STILL havn't fixed that, despite multiple complaints the last time. You pay £39.94.

Secondly, whatever the "RRP" for Doom 3 is, the price across the usual range of online retailers AND stores was £25 to £35.

Granted I have no problem in paying more for BiN than Doom 3 (a tenner in my case), but it's not quite the value buy you suggest.



The MSG -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 10:46:36 AM)

I whine by not purchasing...

Then again UV wasn't really my cup of tea, so that can have something to do with it as well. [;)]



wodin -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 11:56:49 AM)

This is a cut and paste from a post of mine in another thread. Its more relevant here.

The only worry I can see at the moment with Matrix games is the price issues. I for one have no problem with them, I know what I buying and that I'm going to enjoy the game. However its doubtfull I would spend slightly more than normal on a game genre I didnt even know whether I'd like it or not. Especially as it is a download which then limits its second hand value in my opinion. Just a thought. Im seeing so many people being put off by the price of BiN and WiTP that its starting to worry me. These people are either newbies who are needed in this hobby or are old timers who just arent willing to part with money for a game they have been waiting for which is alos a worry. So many companys are falling by the wayside in the Game industry that every game sold counts.



EricGuitarJames -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 3:29:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Now the game is available to us UK gamers at 33.99GBP which is 11GBP cheaper than the recommended retail for 'Doom 3'.


Firstly, that 33.99 is NET of VAT.. they STILL havn't fixed that, despite multiple complaints the last time. You pay £39.94.

Secondly, whatever the "RRP" for Doom 3 is, the price across the usual range of online retailers AND stores was £25 to £35.

Granted I have no problem in paying more for BiN than Doom 3 (a tenner in my case), but it's not quite the value buy you suggest.


They still haven't fixed the VAT thing? Matrix really should get that sorted very quickly since as far as I'm aware, to offer goods for sale retail without it is illegal. Matrix should honour that price or decline to sell, they should not be adding that VAT afterwards especially as ordering from the UK has its own specific section. I thought Matrix were above that kind of low-down trick.

Oh I know about the discount thing on Doom, I was trying to make a point about the price of a mass-produced game versus a niche/specialist game ....... but I might have missed the target[:)]



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 4:33:19 PM)

There really is only one danger with high prices.

If a Matrix Games title is worth it it's worth it.

But, and just so people don't think I am some nut only interested in being right, if the game is represented elsewhere, and someone put it out for less, then the consumer is going to pick the cheaper item in most cases.

For comparison purposes only, and there is no garantee I will get a bang on analogy, in the realm of grand strategy, I am currently inclined to put up Strategic Command against anything else WW2 grand strategic.
Now SC is not full global, but it is definitely a seriously good purchase, both price wise as well as satisfaction wise.
It comes in at 19 bucks Canadian on the shelf currently, but entered into the market a couple of years back at 29 bucks I believe.
Compare that with other offerings in grand strategy.
HoI comes in at twice that. Even if you like the game, it is still twice the price. And no, I never thought it was half as good let alone twice as good as SC.

Currently we have Gary's game A World at War under construction.
Looks good. But it will be competing with SC2 for my dollar. And if SC2 comes out substantially lower than A World at War, odds are I will not be concerned that one is not full global in simulation.

The biggest barrier to price is not whether the price is high, but whether we actually even need the item.

I own the real World in Flames. The board game. Naturally having it on a computer will be "handy". But how far can handy be stretched. That's the question. Is it worth buying the game at a high price, just to replace the board game?

BiN looks to be a good purchase, but, if the person is a die hard player of TOAW, you better really have a good reason to buy a game, that the person can already effectively represent on the other game.
WW2 only has so many decent events to simulate. And TOAW can simulate each and every one of them.

Title redundancy is the only danger Matrix Games is going to really have to deal with.
People don't buy what they don't need.

HTTR, a great game, the only thing special about it though, is the command system if you ask me. Otherwise, I already own games for Operation Market Garden.
I only bought HTTR for the specifics of the games design.

I don't think the average gamer is going to see a price and go, "oh I couldn't possible want that game", half as much as "oh wow, yet another game where I invade Normandy as the Allies somehow".

If the hobby doesn't keep a supply of inovative "ways" to game coming, that more than actual price will influence it negatively.

It's just a matter of time before the 3d real time notion becomes been there done that to a point where it is no longer enough to move a title.



tracer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 6:56:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

Well hell isn't it obvious Tracer :)

Who forgot to send Tracer the memo hehe


Heck, no one told me...how the hell you been?

Some of Hexed Gamer's statements didn't seem quite 'Les-like', so it took me a while to catch on.
Anyhow, here's a 'welcome back' gift for your new persona. [:D][:D][:D]
[image]http://www.streamload.com/jimnsb/SPWAW/mtrxcheer.jpg[/image]



Hexed Gamer -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 7:13:15 PM)

:) cute Tracer hehe, but I am sorta fond of the japanese school uniforms :)

Lets see, the old me retired. He was last seen I think somewhere in the South Pacific. Muttering something about New Zealand.

Well considering how crummy the early summer was.

I am just me these days. I still get around.



EricGuitarJames -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 8:29:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

Well hell isn't it obvious Tracer :)

Who forgot to send Tracer the memo hehe


Heck, no one told me...how the hell you been?

Some of Hexed Gamer's statements didn't seem quite 'Les-like', so it took me a while to catch on.


It's the old 'stream of conciousness' (or unconciousness[:D][:D]) style of the posts which are a dead giveaway really. I was just too polite to say anything before[;)]



Hertston -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 9:46:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

They still haven't fixed the VAT thing? Matrix really should get that sorted very quickly since as far as I'm aware, to offer goods for sale retail without it is illegal. Matrix should honour that price or decline to sell, they should not be adding that VAT afterwards especially as ordering from the UK has its own specific section. I thought Matrix were above that kind of low-down trick.




In fairness the "small print" was actually quite large, but your post and the fact I only read it (the small print that is, not your post) because I was looking for it make the point nicely.

I'm sure it's not dirty tricks, but it is starting to verge on obstinate stupidity. I'm not sure if it's Digital River or Matrix, but somewhere it still just isn't sinking in that the headline price should be VAT inclusive for products aimed at consumers rather than businesses (who can reclaim it). It WILL lose Matrix both goodwill and repeat business... but we have made the point so many times now without a satisfactory response.. well, it's their loss [:(]



David Heath -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/20/2004 11:26:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Now the game is available to us UK gamers at 33.99GBP which is 11GBP cheaper than the recommended retail for 'Doom 3'.


Firstly, that 33.99 is NET of VAT.. they STILL havn't fixed that, despite multiple complaints the last time. You pay £39.94.

Secondly, whatever the "RRP" for Doom 3 is, the price across the usual range of online retailers AND stores was £25 to £35.

Granted I have no problem in paying more for BiN than Doom 3 (a tenner in my case), but it's not quite the value buy you suggest.


Well we did fix it as best as we could. The prices DO NOT show VAT and when you enter the store you are warned of that. But we did change the store so that you are not charge until you see the WHOLE price including the VAT charges as well.

David



Larac -> RE: Rampant pro policy thread (9/21/2004 12:47:49 AM)

MHO

Wargaming is a hobby, one which I enjoy.
I have about 30 Boxed war games, at least 30 mini games rules, 12 armies in miniature for said games.
A host of RPGs, a large collection of German Board games.

Very few any one peice was over 50 dollars.

But I spent well over 600 on a set , Rules, Mini, paints and terrian.

Now I saw Matrix a few months back, looked over the products and read the fourms. Found BIN and was told to expect good things. I like WWII, so I Bought it day 1.

It hurt my hobby allowance I give my self, Fixed Income now, when I collected most of the stuff listed I was in much better shape in all ways. Pre car wreck days.

Is BIN worth 60?
Hours of Entertainment/price

I think BIN will turn out to be a great investment for my war gaming hobby.

Most games retail at 40-50 in the states, then bargin down quickly.

BIN I see being a direct product only will not decrease in price for a long time, if ever. SO buying day 1 does not make me feel cheated later on.

It is a large amount for a single game, yes. But I expect to have 6-20 new quality sessions added by the community before a year is out. That for me triples the game appeal.


to each thier own, but 60 feels right for the game,
Lee



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