Map Mod Information (Full Version)

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Andrew Brown -> Map Mod Information (11/27/2004 2:18:29 AM)

I have been working on a new map for WitP for a while now, and I am getting closer to completing it. When it is done I will be looking for some volunteers to help me test it. In the meantime, I am setting up a web page that explains the reasons I am making the map and its features.

In short, the main differences between the modified map and the official map are:

  • Many parts of the map have been moved and/or redrawn to make the distances between various parts of the map more accurate. Some detailed comparisons are provided on this page.
  • The transport infrastructure in Australia has been modified to make it more accurate.
  • The transport infrastructure in North America has been modified to make it more accurate.
  • Some extra bases, such as the Maldives and the Society Islands have been added.
  • Some additional terrain types have been added.
  • The map is drawn using a plainer 2D style, as I don't claim to be a decent artist.


The map information is at this web page:

member.melbpc.org.au/~akbrown/witp.html

I would be very interested to hear any comments (good and bad) and suggestions regarding the map, including suggestions as to what should, or should not, be included in the map, such as new islands or bases.

Andrew



CobraAus -> RE: Map Mod Information (11/27/2004 6:52:47 AM)

I will have a go and report back - but the web site link is missing Andrew

Cobra Aus

[image]local://upfiles/13770/Ec896513349.jpg[/image]



Andrew Brown -> RE: Map Mod Information (11/27/2004 7:08:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CobraAus

I will have a go and report back - but the web site link is missing Andrew

Cobra Aus



The link was there but not very obvious. I have made it clearer now.



Tanaka -> RE: Map Mod Information (11/27/2004 9:07:22 AM)

Just a couple of comments:


The map data file mod: This isnt really a bug here they actually programmed it to work this way. But this would still be an interesting change. Says so in the manual somwhere that you get the benefit of the rail/road/trail going into the hex you march to.

Map Mod: Thrilled to see someone trying to fix some of the inaccuracies. Just wondering why did you not use the terrain art from the game? Could you not copy and paste in photoshop???



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Map Mod Information (11/27/2004 4:32:48 PM)

Andrew, first of all, thank you for doing all that creative job. I will probably be downloading and using your map. I can't help it: I do want a "real" physical map. I don't like fantasies that much. And needless to say, when I have seen your map I have said: "ah, this finally looks like the real Pacific Ocean, Southeast Asia". But India is still on a strange position EAST-WEST. It should be NORTH-SOUTH. A last thing, could you PM me and give me some basic advices? I mean, I would like to re-draw India, if that is possible. Thanks in advance.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Map Mod Information (11/27/2004 9:07:02 PM)

Andrew! Looking great mister![&o]



Andrew Brown -> RE: Map Mod Information (11/28/2004 12:59:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Just a couple of comments:


The map data file mod: This isnt really a bug here they actually programmed it to work this way. But this would still be an interesting change. Says so in the manual somwhere that you get the benefit of the rail/road/trail going into the hex you march to.

Map Mod: Thrilled to see someone trying to fix some of the inaccuracies. Just wondering why did you not use the terrain art from the game? Could you not copy and paste in photoshop???


Thanks for the comments.

If the 'catapult' movement off a rail line is a feature then I don't agree with it.

For a start it doesn't make sense - how does a unit benifit from a North-South rail line to move 60 miles East or West, through jungle, in a single day? Furthermore it is not consistent - there is no such benifit when they move the other way, towards the rail line. It is a 'one way' benifit. Also, if there are two adjacent hexes, each with rail lines that do NOT link up, and a unit moves between them then it doesn't get the benifit either. I think my modded file produces more consistent and realistic results.

People have different preferences I guess.

Regarding the terrain. The problem with cut & pasting the existing terrain is that it is not in discrete, hex sized pieces. It is continuoulsy hand drawn, and if I cut & paste it then it will not match up properly. If I was a better and more patient artist I could smooth over the joins but that would be tricky as it is shaded 3D art.

Actually I have come to prefer my more primitive 2D art, and I also find it easier to distinguish the different terrain types as well. It is a personal preference thing of course.



Andrew Brown -> RE: Map Mod Information (11/28/2004 1:06:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Andrew, first of all, thank you for doing all that creative job. I will probably be downloading and using your map. I can't help it: I do want a "real" physical map. I don't like fantasies that much. And needless to say, when I have seen your map I have said: "ah, this finally looks like the real Pacific Ocean, Southeast Asia". But India is still on a strange position EAST-WEST. It should be NORTH-SOUTH. A last thing, could you PM me and give me some basic advices? I mean, I would like to re-draw India, if that is possible. Thanks in advance.


The East-West orientation of India comes about because of the map projection. It is not possible to maintain a consistent North-South projection of such a large area and keep the distances close to realistic values. If India was turned to North-South (along with much of SE Asia which adjoins it), then a lot of distances would be way out, especially in the North.

I tried to get some of the distances closer to their actual values, but it is not easy. Even using the type of projection for the current map the East-West distances across the South Pacific are 10-50% higher than they should be because that part of the map is so stretched out.

It is all part of the problem of trying to represent a 3D sphere on a 2D map. I think that the projection that they have chosen for the map represents a very good compromise between accurate distances, at least for the most critical parts of the theatre, and aesthetics.



Andrew Brown -> RE: Map Mod Information (11/28/2004 4:14:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Just a couple of comments:


The map data file mod: This isnt really a bug here they actually programmed it to work this way. But this would still be an interesting change. Says so in the manual somwhere that you get the benefit of the rail/road/trail going into the hex you march to.


Tanaka you are right - it is in the manual. I never saw it before! I still don't agree with it though (see above).

I'll change the mod to say that it is changing something I don't like instead of fixing a bug. [:)]



medicff -> RE: Map Mod Information (11/28/2004 4:44:18 AM)

Nice map. I like the view of the 3d contour for a short period but I think your hex terrain is more practicle.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

I'll change the mod to say that it is changing something I don't like instead of fixing a bug. [:)]


As per the above "bug/feature" I would prefer to eliminate it and make land movement benefits as to the hexside crossing road/rail/trail bonus and hex moving into terrain as well.
[:)]



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Map Mod Information (11/28/2004 5:36:28 PM)

I like it. The bold shoreline is comforting and the road and rail graphics are more distinct.

I have to admit, however, I do like the curelinear place name graphics for the large bodies of water in the original.



Blackhorse -> RE: Map Mod Information (11/30/2004 2:04:45 AM)

Andrew,

To second everyone else's comments: Great Job!

Do you plan to post on your website the bases that you have added / are thinking about?

Re: Your comparative "Distance" table -- the 4th and 5th columns should say 'hexes' vice 'miles.' And I think Christmas - Pearl should be (-2) and Delhi-Rangoon (-8) (unless there is a typo in the distance).



tsimmonds -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 4:42:22 AM)

Folks, there are lots of "eye-and-ear-candy" mods out there, but this one actually makes the game play better. I recommend it highly. The slingshot move off of railways irks me no end, and this mod cures that ugliness. Try it.



Tanaka -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 5:15:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Folks, there are lots of "eye-and-ear-candy" mods out there, but this one actually makes the game play better. I recommend it highly. The slingshot move off of railways irks me no end, and this mod cures that ugliness. Try it.


Is it already available???



tsimmonds -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 5:20:15 AM)

Yes, follow the link in the top post.



stubby331 -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 5:22:40 AM)

Andrew,

You deserve a medal (or at the very least an Mid) for your work here.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



tsimmonds -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 5:27:58 AM)

Like the changes 'e's made in the Outback, d'ya mate?[;)]



Andrew Brown -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 5:47:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

Andrew,

To second everyone else's comments: Great Job!

Do you plan to post on your website the bases that you have added / are thinking about?

Re: Your comparative "Distance" table -- the 4th and 5th columns should say 'hexes' vice 'miles.' And I think Christmas - Pearl should be (-2) and Delhi-Rangoon (-8) (unless there is a typo in the distance).


Thanks! I had spotted one of the typoes but have not fixed it yet (Christmas - Pearl). I will go back and recheck the Delhi-Rangoon one. And you are right about the 4th and 5th column. I should have spotted that! I'll fix it up soon.

As for new bases. I have added quite a few. Part of this is experimenting with new ideas, and I may remove them again, but it is fun.

I have added (from memory):

Soviet bases:
Krasnoyarsk - at the 'top' of the trans siberian. Will probably make it the major source of supplies instead if Irkutsk, then see if that works.
Sovetskaya Gavan - Opposite Sakhalin (sp?)
Uel Kal (sp?) - Opposite upper Alaska. Part of the lend lease air route Alaska-USSR.
Magadan - On Sea of Okhotsk. Part of the lend lease air route Alaska-USSR.
Another base near Krasnyarsk and the Mongolian border - can't remember the name.

Chinese bases:
Urumchi - Near to of the map (Xinjiang). Small source of oil, plus daily supplies (from Soviets).
Also two other bases near Urumchi which are airfields. Can be used to ferry aircraft to China from SU as happened in real life. I will experiment with placing some Soviet units at these bases to see what happens in the game. I am hoping that SU will stay neutral with them there, but an attack by the Japanese will bring SU into the war. In reality Xinjiang was basically run by the SU during the early war years.

Indian Bases:
Addu Atol - in the Maldives (actually a Commonwealth base but in the area).
Added Bhopal and another one in Central India, for no other reason than it looks empty otherwise. They could easily be dispensed with if considered unnecessary.

Australian Bases:
Added all the bases as per my old forum posts on Oz (Albany, Daly Waters, Broken Hill, Charleville, Coen, Cloncurry, Exmouth). I may also add Port Kembla near Sydney but I am in two minds about that.

NZ Bases:
Hamilton - central North island. Since invading NZ actually seems to be a viable strategy, I think NZ needs some help. This base could be dispensed with however.

Pacific:
Ocean Island (haven't added base yet but it is on the map. I need to come up with some values - anyone got UV loaded???
Bora Bora and Papaete in the Society Islands. (anyone got recommended values??)

Alaska:
Faibanks.
Seward.

Canada:
Whitehorse.
Fort St. John
Victoria - Also includes Esquimalt. Apparently HQ of Canadian pacific fleet?? Also had shipyards so must have been a considerable port.
Edmonton and Calgary (yes you read that right). Eye candy only really. The map looks odd without them however, since I drew a 'realistic' rather than abstract rail net for the interior of North America.
Added a base called 'Canada' which is located where Regina is in rea life. It is a very small Canadian version of the 'USA' base - provides supplies/fuel.

USA:
Am toying with the idea of adding Spokane. Again eye candy because of the rail net.

I think that is all! There may be a couple I have forgotten.

I have just started testing the map by the way, AI vs AI, and so far it seems to work OK. I have a little more work to do (Blackhorse is helping too - thanks!!), then I will be asking whether there is anyone else interested in helping me test the map. I hope that it can be tested vs the AI, and also in PBEM.

I also need help in working out what extra units should be added to the game - mainly base forces and some CD - for the extra bases, especially in SU/Alaska/Canada/China.

Andrew



Andrew Brown -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 5:49:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Is it already available???


Tanaka - I have two mods. One is the map data file mod. it is available. Until I hear back from those testing it consider it as experimental, however. The other mod is my new map. It is not yet available but will be soon I hope.

Andrew



stubby331 -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 6:17:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Like the changes 'e's made in the Outback, d'ya mate?[;)]


In short. YES!!!

Given Matrix's lack of response on this whole matter I had despaired of ever seeing Andrew's REAL Aussie map up and running.

Hoorah!!!!!!!! [&o]



Admiral Scott -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 6:56:49 AM)

I'm dying to see and use this map!
When I try going to the map mod page, its blank.

Wouldnt games in progress have to be restarted?



Don Bowen -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 7:08:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

I have added (from memory):

Pacific:
Ocean Island (haven't added base yet but it is on the map. I need to come up with some values - anyone got UV loaded???
Bora Bora and Papaete in the Society Islands. (anyone got recommended values??)

Andrew


Bora Bora is an atoll of volcanic origin. The reef is 1 to 1 1/2 miles wide with a number of small, low barrier islands. A single natural passage through the reef had been expanded by the French, using dynamite, and led to two excellent sheltered anchorages - Teavanui Harbor and Fanui Bay. Unloading facilities initially consisted of a long wooden wharf (apparently in Fanui Bay), built pre-war. Additional wharfs were constructed by the American garrison using coconut log frames filled with coral and stone. A large refueling station, complete with additional piers, storage tanks, support facilites, etc were "quickly constructed". A 6000 foot army airfield and an aircraft assembly depot were constructed on one of the low, flat islands in the barrier reef.

Don't know exactly how to convert this to standard WITP values, but I would guess an initial port of 1-2 with a max of 3 or 4. Airfield 0 with max of 3.

Data is from "World War II Pacific Island Guide - A Geo-Military Study" by Gordon L. Rottman - ISBN 0-313-31395-4. and "Bogged Down in Bora Bora" by Ervan F. Kushner (an officer in the Garrision).

Unfortunately there is no data for Tahiti as no U.S. forces were stationed there.



worr -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 7:13:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


For a start it doesn't make sense - how does a unit benifit from a North-South rail line to move 60 miles East or West, through jungle, in a single day?


Probably because you don't have to move "through it" to fight what is in it.

You might only have to approach the edge to engage the battle. Hexes represent a lot of terrain, yet when you enter the hex it is considered that you are engaged even if the opponent is on the far side of that same hex going the same way. No way around that.

Worr, out



worr -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 7:14:51 AM)

Can someone post a pic?

Worr, out



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 7:17:18 AM)

Wow...that is an ambitious project.

How exactly do you modify the internal map geometry? I can see repainting things in the .bmp file, but this is a whole 'nuther kettle of tea.



Andrew Brown -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 7:18:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

I'm dying to see and use this map!
When I try going to the map mod page, its blank.

Wouldnt games in progress have to be restarted?


That is odd, the link is working for me at the moment.

And yes you would definitely need to start a new game with the map. Also, since it is a 'global' change, it would be a bit if a hassle to swap between two games, one with the modded map and one with the original. You will have to exit the game, copy in/out the map art files and the map data file, then restart the game and load/start the new scenario.



Andrew Brown -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 7:22:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: worr

Can someone post a pic?

Worr, out


The pics are on the page I linked to (well, a page linked from that page), but here 'tis:

(Note that the map has been updated slightly since this image was created)

[image]local://upfiles/1061/Fd918815595.jpg[/image]



Admiral Scott -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 7:26:18 AM)

I'm going here...... http://member.melbpc.org.au/~akbrown/witp/mapmod01.html
and getting a blank white page.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 7:31:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

I'm going here...... http://member.melbpc.org.au/~akbrown/witp/mapmod01.html
and getting a blank white page.


Ditto that



Admiral Scott -> RE: Map Mod Information (12/2/2004 7:31:56 AM)

Andrew, how were you able to get the distances more accurate overall better than matrix?
Maybe matrix should be consulting you on future maps.



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