Another niche: the Med

Another niche: the Med (Full Version)

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MengCiao -> Another niche: the Med (12/1/2004 8:20:55 PM)
If 2by3 is going to turn the code for WitP over to amateurs, why don't we amateurs try to build the WWII Med game? No use doing the whole war, but smaller scenarios running at about 1-4 months ought to work (eg, Torch, Pedestal...Taranto Raid, Crete, surrender of the Italian Fleet -- complete with TV-guided jerry smart bombs!!! etc.).

fbastos -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 2:28:26 AM)
quote: If 2by3 is going to turn the code for WitP over to amateurs That is a huge (and very unlikely) if... Perhaps some programmer that worked before with 2by3 and has their confidence might do it, though... who knows? F.

pasternakski -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 4:00:24 AM)
If someone is going to do WWII in the Mediterranean with emphasis on the naval and air aspects, treating it (as UV does) as a conflict over control of vital bases, I need the whole campaign from Taranto (or thereabouts) to Italy's surrender (or thereabouts). I think that the main ground conflict up in Europe can be abstracted out of the design. I also think that the fluid war in the desert can be simulated within the terms of the basic UV engine. Ten or 15 mile hexes are an intriguing possibility that would do a lot to put you inside the texture of this theater of war while keeping you at objective enough distance to give you a feeling of strategic command. Your options would always be limited by events in other theaters (including the Pacific, which would be a constant drain on your force allotments), so that flexibility in planning and attention to accomplishing only that of which you are capable would be at a premium. Man oh man, give me Cape Matapan ... I'm down on me luck, just give me Tobruk ... We will never falter as long as we hold Gibraltar ... I'm a-callin' a halta after we take-a Malta.

Tankerace -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 4:38:14 AM)
Well, if we (the community) can edit the map (as has been talked about) and decide to do a Mediterranian mod, I'll do the ship graphics for it. Operation Herkules, that'd be a hoot.

33Vyper -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 4:40:01 AM)
I could finally get my Bismarck?

pasternakski -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 5:11:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace Well, if we (the community) can edit the map (as has been talked about) and decide to do a Mediterranian mod, I'll do the ship graphics for it. Operation Herkules, that'd be a hoot. I'm up for the OOB and scenario work... Give me your poor, your tired, your obsolete UV code, yearning to breathe free...

Tankerace -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 5:16:12 AM)
So, that's OOB, scenario, and graphics. We need a couple of guys to do some research, and I think we are half way there.

MadmanRick -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 6:33:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace Well, if we (the community) can edit the map (as has been talked about) and decide to do a Mediterranian mod, I'll do the ship graphics for it. Operation Herkules, that'd be a hoot. Having worked on an aborted Midway mod for UV, I can tell you the biggest obstacle will be the map and its programming. I mean since the map is simply a really big .gif or .jpg file (forget which offhand), it would be fairly easy to replace the existing map. However, I think (although I could be mistaken) that the bases are coded into the game, so that would be the real stumbling block. Rick

pasternakski -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 6:37:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace I think we are half way there. I'm sure there are a lot of people who think we're "halfway there," all right.

Tankerace -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 6:41:58 AM)
It is a cross section of several bmps. You can edit the bases, those are in the OOB. That is no problem. What IS coded into the game (I believe) is what is and is not a land or water hex. So, in game we think we are sailing to malta, and the game thinks we plowed into the tip of Australia.

Bodhi -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 7:57:37 AM)
No, the type of hex and hex edges aren't coded into the game. It's all in the Pwhex.dat file. Don't know if the progam would accept any different sized map though.

m10bob -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 4:32:17 PM)
Tankerace........That avatar of Wild Bill Kelso is a HOOT!,(and so appropriate for WITP)..

sprior -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 4:52:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace So, that's OOB, scenario, and graphics. We need a couple of guys to do some research, and I think we are half way there. I'll do the RN and RM (Royal Navy and Regia Marina, which also means Royal Navy, but the Italian one) OOB research!

BlackVoid -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 9:51:05 PM)
The map must be some kind of spreadsheet/database table that contains all the terrain. For the roads/rails is a different matter there are a dozen ways to implement them. I do not think that the community would need the source code for this project, only the file formats are needed for the database files that cannot be edited with the editor.

BlackVoid -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 9:53:20 PM)
If the file formats are released to the public, the MED can be done, UNLESS there is important data that is harcoded in the program itself.

Tankerace -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 10:18:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: m10bob Tankerace........That avatar of Wild Bill Kelso is a HOOT!,(and so appropriate for WITP).. Thanks a lot bob. I found the poster at IMDB.com, and I said.... hmmmm. [:D]

Bodhi -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 11:04:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlackVoid The map must be some kind of spreadsheet/database table that contains all the terrain. For the roads/rails is a different matter there are a dozen ways to implement them. As I said above, all this map info, including road/rail, is in the pwhex.dat file. It's not difficult to work out its structure.

Cap Mandrake -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 11:05:55 PM)
You boys need to talk to Andrew Brown...he seems to have the map files figured out..fi he can move around Johnston Atoll, then he could put Malta where he wanted as well. http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/default.asp

m10bob -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/2/2004 11:30:01 PM)
"Mare Nostrum" has been much neglected in the CPU wargame industry.I sure hope this becomes a reality. BTW,"Mare Nostrum" was a board game from the seventies depicting this theatre,I suspect some of our older players may remember it,possibly one of James Dunnigans' games??

Skyros -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/3/2004 1:34:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: m10bob "Mare Nostrum" has been much neglected in the CPU wargame industry.I sure hope this becomes a reality. BTW,"Mare Nostrum" was a board game from the seventies depicting this theatre,I suspect some of our older players may remember it,possibly one of James Dunnigans' games?? I want to say it was a Jack Greene design but I could be wrong, maybe Simulations Canada? Us old guys memories are slipping.[:D]

Arsaces -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/3/2004 7:23:01 AM)
A Med game would be marvelous. All those beautiful Regia Marina designs. One can dream...

MadmanRick -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/3/2004 7:28:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tankerace Well, if we (the community) can edit the map (as has been talked about) and decide to do a Mediterranian mod, I'll do the ship graphics for it. Operation Herkules, that'd be a hoot. I'd be happy to do some oob work, either naval or air. I'd also be willing to work on scenarios! Rick

MengCiao -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/3/2004 3:57:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: m10bob "Mare Nostrum" has been much neglected in the CPU wargame industry.I sure hope this becomes a reality. BTW,"Mare Nostrum" was a board game from the seventies depicting this theatre,I suspect some of our older players may remember it,possibly one of James Dunnigans' games?? I played it. It was bad. There have been some good Med-centric games and Conquest of the Aegean ought to be one of the best games yet. The Whole Tunisia campaign makes a very good relatively self-contained game, at least in terms of the ground fighting and there's a lot of parachuting back and forth until well into the Italian Campaign. I guess the UV scale would be much better for the Med. than the Witp scale.

CatLord -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/3/2004 6:19:07 PM)
I have an old French wargame (called "Amiraut�", dating back to 1979) and his supplement, about the Med theatre (called "Mare Nostrum"), which must have most of the ww2 ships characteristics. There would be a lot of interesting what-if with the French fleet in such a game/mod. I am going back to France in December, so I may try to find this old and dusty cardboard box back if anyone is interested.... Cat

MengCiao -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/3/2004 6:45:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CatLord I have an old French wargame (called "Amiraut�", dating back to 1979) and his supplement, about the Med theatre (called "Mare Nostrum"), which must have most of the ww2 ships characteristics. There would be a lot of interesting what-if with the French fleet in such a game/mod. I am going back to France in December, so I may try to find this old and dusty cardboard box back if anyone is interested.... Cat There are also minatures style boardgames (or table-top games anyway) that summarize the ships to some degree.

Feinder -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/3/2004 7:26:18 PM)
And this is an advantage of (eventually) allowing open source to your player base. The players actually get things done faster than the devs. Not meant to be a slam on the devs. There are only so many, and they want to go home to their families when the day is done. Enter player development, and you've got somebody who doesn't mind spending an entire Saturday, then staying up until 3am designing a AAA gun on patrol boat. Player devs are great. Problems -will- be solved. Doesn't matter how hard the task is. If you have a dedicated player base (and WitP certainly does, look at the number of mods we have already), there really is very little that you -can't- do (or fix). One of the Cons tho is, the issue is "which is the master copy". You've now got 25 versions of a program, all with different fixes and OBs. It's certainly possible to have versions hosted at a site (say Spooky's). But when people want to play each other, you have to make sure you're running the same verions and mods (yes, it's already like that somewhat with Lemur's mod, it just means you're gonna get a LOT more versions if you open source). Another wrinkle is, Matrix doesn't make any more money if they open source. Sure they can sell units, and make some body. The tap doesn't dry up completely. But you sell a lot less units (so you wait until sales are tapering off). Now anybody can host the game, and offer a dowload (legality not withstanding). But I digress. Yes, given opportunity, players would probably much faster than you think, create a viabel Med Scenario, complete with new maps, OB, and probably even a "kick your a$$ five ways from Sunday", AI component also. -F-

MengCiao -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/3/2004 7:54:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pasternakski If someone is going to do WWII in the Mediterranean with emphasis on the naval and air aspects, treating it (as UV does) as a conflict over control of vital bases, I need the whole campaign from Taranto (or thereabouts) to Italy's surrender (or thereabouts). I think that the main ground conflict up in Europe can be abstracted out of the design. I also think that the fluid war in the desert can be simulated within the terms of the basic UV engine. Ten or 15 mile hexes are an intriguing possibility that would do a lot to put you inside the texture of this theater of war while keeping you at objective enough distance to give you a feeling of strategic command. Your options would always be limited by events in other theaters (including the Pacific, which would be a constant drain on your force allotments), so that flexibility in planning and attention to accomplishing only that of which you are capable would be at a premium. Man oh man, give me Cape Matapan ... I'm down on me luck, just give me Tobruk ... We will never falter as long as we hold Gibraltar ... I'm a-callin' a halta after we take-a Malta. Taranto to the Italian surrender? That might work. It might be better to start with several variations on the fate of the French Fleet...since the Little Kingdom might feel mighty peculair if the French Fleet either goes non-Vichy and sets up in North Africa or joins the Brits flat out. Other possibilities are: France and Britain intervene in the Spanish Civil War or over Eithiopia. I guess the Black Sea and the Red Sea can be left out...but you may need a snip of the Atlantic or even the Bay of Biscay.

sprior -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/3/2004 10:33:25 PM)
You would need to find a way of forcing the RN to tak epart in the madness that was the Greek and Crete campaigns too. You need to find very compelling reasons to force my destyoyers and cruisers under those Stukas!

MengCiao -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/3/2004 11:27:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sprior You would need to find a way of forcing the RN to tak epart in the madness that was the Greek and Crete campaigns too. You need to find very compelling reasons to force my destyoyers and cruisers under those Stukas! Play the Ultra-long campaign and blow the Fascists out of the water in 1937 and you might avoid the Aegean difficulties that might otherwise (nay, as certain as the morning dew) arise or descend as the case may be.

pasternakski -> RE: Another niche: the Med (12/4/2004 12:10:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MengCiao I guess the UV scale would be much better for the Med. than the Witp scale. And we could avoid all those BS bugs. I think maybe 10-15 miles per hex???

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