RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (Full Version)

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WiTP_Dude -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/1/2005 1:40:13 AM)

I think this thread is biased towards those who don't need a demo and those who are willing to pay the $70. Obviously those who don't fit these two categories aren't going to be here posting too much.



Cmdrcain -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/1/2005 11:35:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marky

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Yea, a good starting time commitment is two weeks, anything less then that and you'll just end up deleting it.

This game requires commitment, a lot of us should be committed [:D]



hahaha

[:D]


my mom said i was crazy

or she said-

~all u do is sit at ur computer and play games~

~thats crazy~

im thinkin, if im crazy for playing great games all day and half the night, then the world has lost the definition of crazy, or its just become blurred!

whos with me?[:D][:D][:D][8D][8D][8D]



Hummm Your mother should be quite glad your sitting playing a computer game then out doing who knows what [:D]



fbastos -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/1/2005 10:24:43 PM)

Easy way to produce a demo:

#ifdef DEMOGAME
if (turn>=30)
Tell_Player_Demo_Is_Over();
#endif

Takes like 4 lines (or more if you want a nifty "Demo is Over" message).

F.



Rossj -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/2/2005 3:41:58 AM)

UV is the defacto demo, but witp is far better...I think they should release it in box form for 49.95...maybe they can build up the cutomer base...of course, I guess that means I paid $30 more to be a play tester...you know, that's alright, I really think this is a great game.



mogami -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/2/2005 3:48:03 AM)

Hi, You know I have quite a few games I paid 40-50 bucks for that needed a patch and never got one. I have at least one game I never could get to work and I paid 40 for it.
I know WITP has issues. So far none of them have stopped any of my PBEM games. And I have patched half of them up to 1.40 (The rest began in 1.40 and will go to 1.50 when time comes)
I have a few games that I think would have been really good if the producers had bothered to fix the bugs that ruined them. I search for up dates all the time. Strangly many of the game producers that never patched these games are now out of buisness...go figure.



Rossj -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 1:56:02 AM)

for me the bottomline is that this is a great game as is and if 1.5 makes more improvements, that's icing on the cake...I just think that if it were released in box form for $50, the customer base would increase and the developers would make more money...maybe it would provide some incentive to take this game to the next level...uhoh...back to WITP II...map mod, upgraded oob, improved land combat and supply system, better auto convoy...



mogami -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 2:10:00 AM)

Hi, Maybe 20 is a big deal I don't know.
I began playing wargames in 1975 and price has never been an issue.
Games that interested in me I bought. Games that were of the wrong subject or no interest I did not buy. I have a very wide interest range so over time I have bought a lot of games. But I've never paid attention to price or bought something I was not interested in because it was cheaper priced.
I am a member of that crowd that back in SPI times bought everything they released as soon as it was released at the price asked. When I went to computers I did the same with SSI.
I guess what I am saying is that I would have bought WITP at any price and I would not buy a FPS at any price (If I could download one free I would not bother)



freeboy -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 2:20:07 AM)

quote:

quote:

for me the bottomline is that this is a great game as is and if 1.5 makes more improvements, that's icing on the cake...I just think that if it were released in box form for $50, the customer base would increase and the developers would make more money...maybe it would provide some incentive to take this game to the next level...uhoh...back to WITP II...map mod, upgraded oob, improved land combat and supply system, better auto convoy...

Hi, Maybe 20 is a big deal I don't know.
I began playing wargames in 1975 and price has never been an issue.
Games that interested in me I bought. Games that were of the wrong subject or no interest I did not buy. I have a very wide interest range so over time I have bought a lot of games. But I've never paid attention to price or bought something I was not interested in because it was cheaper priced.
I am a member of that crowd that back in SPI times bought everything they released as soon as it was released at the price asked. When I went to computers I did the same with SSI.
I guess what I am saying is that I would have bought WITP at any price and I would not buy a FPS at any price (If I could download one free I would not bother)



I agree with these, but the issue is what does the maker want to see, then MAtrix marks up, if 2X3 wanted to give this away, then it would be a 20 game... and of course they are losing sales by not giving it away, not really the point, because in ten years this game will still be selling, maybe as Witp 3 save the world! hehe
I too baught a huge amount of software in the 80/90's, getting to the limits of my machines speed.. and I only regret there is not a good Red Baron for a modern system.. oops that is anouther thread..
I think on a dollar per hour played basis this is right up there with my all time favorites....
for LOW cost[:D]



Tanaka -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 2:32:27 AM)

I have bought many many games over the years for $15 to $20 to $40 to $50. And this includes having to buy expansions and all. The companies give out a patch or two and then move on. Or try to rip you off with expansion packs. I then do the same thing the company did. I move on. Everyone of these games I am bored with or done with quickly. I have wasted a lot of money on these stupid games and have never been satisfied with them. And then along came UV and WITP....and I have been here ever since. Never have I given this much commitment to a game and stuck around this long! And there is a reason for this....

Money paid for WITP: $70

Always Fun.
Always Different.
Always Learning Something New.
Grognard Heaven.
Only game like it out there and probably ever will be.
Fans Constantly listened and responded to. Frequent response and updates.
THE BEST WARGAME EVER MADE!!!

Actual Value of WITP: Priceless!!! [:D]



Greco, Thomas A -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 3:29:36 AM)

I look at the game price in terms of dollars per hobby/entertainment hour. For instance a 3hr movie at 9 bucks is $3/hr, golf is $25 hr, a good book maybe a dollar, weekend in Vegas-- don't ask. Now Witp is now down somewhere near $.05 and since I'm only in August 42 in my most advanced game, its safe to say the price will be going lower. Also, a free demo is available. Just download Pacwar and imagine what a bunch of nitpicking, anal grogrards can do with that engine if you give them capital and 13 years to work on it.



Rossj -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 5:08:46 AM)

look there's no doubt that we all have played hundreds of hours and we have gotten our money's worth, but there may be potential players out there who would buy the game if it were released in box form at a retail outlets at a typical price. Some won't like it others will grow to love it and there will be a bigger fan base that might provide enough justification for the developer to continue development and not simply move on to another project. I loved pacwar, but its nothing compared to WITP...in ten more years think were hardware and software technology will be and I for one would like to see a game like this grow with that technology.



pasternakski -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 5:15:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greco, Thomas A
golf is $25 hr

Jeez, when you consider the amount of time I spend chasing down balls in the deep rough and the woods, I get even better value than that.

quote:

Also, a free demo is available. Just download Pacwar and imagine what a bunch of nitpicking, anal grogrards can do with that engine if you give them capital and 13 years to work on it.

I disagree with this. PacWar is not the progenitor for the UV system (which includes WitP and no other titles so far - and probably never will, considering what the devs have said). It was a weekly turn game set on a map where movement was strictly controlled by a (dare I say it) matrix of paths. It was quite a simple game, actually, with elements that were easily understood and outcomes that left very little for discussion in forums where the itinerary is "wah wah wah, I want my side to win, so change the game to suit me or I'll have a hissy fit and mod it to show you how bad it can really be." It was published, it worked, and the more people f#cked with it, the worse it got (sorry, Matrix, but the last mess you came up with is unforgiveable).

UV came from the direct lineage of War in the South Pacific. Some of its idiosyncrasies (the most notable of which is the "Japanese Death Star" phenomenon) are fully recognizable to those who played the old game. WitP was an overly ambitious attempt to bring that genesis to full fruition. It failed, but, what the hell, it was a noble failure.

So, we play among the ruins. Grigsby moves on.



mogami -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 5:37:03 AM)

Hi, I don't agree that there exists any thing called "The Death Star"
It is just the Japanese player keeping his CV together. A reasonable (but limiting) thing to do. The Death Star effect is simply Allied players putting their head into a meat grinder.
In late 1943 we will see "Death Stars" the historic gathering of Essex class CV that roam at will.
It required all of 10 days for me to put holes into 2 IJN CV in Death Star mode in my most recent PBEM start. No USN CV were damaged in the process.

If the Japanese divide their CV in 3 groups of 2 and the USN sends 1 CV to oppose the USN will lose the exchange.
It is easier for the USN to form Death Stars. They just have to wait 3 months before forming "Death Star Number 1" The Japanese will have to oppose with their full force or they will lose the encounters.

Just like in the land combat. If the Allied player tries to stop 3 Japanese divisions with supporting engineers arty and tanks with a broken down tired Bde they will lose. If they put up 6 Buffalos on CAP versus 40 A6M2 they will lose.
There are more then a few Allied players out there in PBEM land who win the CV versus CV battles, Have 2 to 1 in A2A kills and are holding land objectives.

WITP is not a game where success comes with out planning.
US airgroups require training before goinginto combat. Just because you rush 200 planes to a forward base and engage the Japanese don't expect a victory. The Japanese can match numbers with you long into 1942. In surface combats having ships led by poor Admirals can negate a numircal advantage. Sometimes it appears to me that people expect things to happen by magic. "Death Star" appears to me to be shorthand for "Japanese tactic that forces me into a historic situation that I can't depend on Japanese mistakes to solve and so I have to find an answer myself that I can't forsee unless I do a lot of planning. Yeech""[X(]



pasternakski -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 5:41:14 AM)

Mog, I don't understand how this is at all responsive to my post.



mogami -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 5:46:03 AM)

Hi, Sorry. "idiosyncrasies" got to me. It always strikes me as sour grapes that the Japanese player is a big mean bully for not using his forces in easy to chew bite size bits.
It's not really an idiosyncrase for a player to be permitted to mass force.

I don't think price makes a hill o beans here. I mean anyone who likes WITP will be happy to pay 70 any one who does not will cry about wasting 20 (if that was the price)
Do people buy games "Hey look it's 14.95 I'll buy it"



herbieh -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 6:14:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

I have bought many many games over the years for $15 to $20 to $40 to $50. And this includes having to buy expansions and all. The companies give out a patch or two and then move on. Or try to rip you off with expansion packs. I then do the same thing the company did. I move on. Everyone of these games I am bored with or done with quickly. I have wasted a lot of money on these stupid games and have never been satisfied with them. And then along came UV and WITP....and I have been here ever since. Never have I given this much commitment to a game and stuck around this long! And there is a reason for this....

Money paid for WITP: $70

Always Fun.
Always Different.
Always Learning Something New.
Grognard Heaven.
Only game like it out there and probably ever will be.
Fans Constantly listened and responded to. Frequent response and updates.
THE BEST WARGAME EVER MADE!!!

Actual Value of WITP: Priceless!!! [:D]



here here!
I predict this game will be still selling well in 3 years time, for the above reasons.
Played for a year?, starting again?, just a new strategic plan and you will have a new game!



pasternakski -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 8:15:01 AM)

I agree with this completely. "Shoot, she's an ugly bugger, but she's only askin' $14.95" is no excuse (unless you've got any pride at all, are blind, or were born in Texas).



mogami -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 8:42:08 AM)

Hi, I still say you are the person with the best sense of humor to vist the boards.



madflava13 -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 9:54:50 AM)

Again, I focus on this - if you have read AARs, checked on the Matrix website, and have done your homework -- well $70 should seem a bargain. If you are looking at this game and $70 seems too much, please do more research.

I'm not kidding, I am involved in two Play By Email games - I expect, literally, to finish each in a year or more. $70 for one year of work seems like nothing to me - given the fact that I'm actually playing 2 games.. Etc.

If you have looked at this product seriously, and you still have doubts re: the purchase price, please DO NOT BUY... Soothe your doubts before buying. This is serious - FPS players need not apply..



mogami -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 9:59:21 AM)

Hi, It is the kind of game where if you know it exists and your not standing on your head to get it then I don't know. If you don't think about your computer games when your not actually playing them then I don't know.
If you don't know what a grognard is then I don't know.
How's that old saying go? "If I have to explain it then you won't understand"

The foks that love WITP are the same ones that before it was made wished it would be made.



Mr.Frag -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 12:25:51 PM)

You know, these price complaints got me laughing ... I just can't see how less then a dollar an hour is expensive in *any* currency.

I looked through my stack of cds and started adding up what I consider *duplicates*

Sim City, Sim City 2000, Sim City 3000, Sim City 4 + Expansion = $250

Micrsoft Flight Simulator(s) = $700 (been collecting them since the original Apple/TRS80 days + addons)

The Sims = $200+ with all the stupid addons (my wife liked it)

Everquest = 2+ years at $20 a month!

Dark Ages of Camalot = Don't ask [X(]

Asherons Call = another couple of hundred

Now, does $70 seem that out of line when you look at these?



USSMaine -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 6:39:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Dark Ages of Camalot = Don't ask [X(]



What server you play on Frag ?



Mr.Frag -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 6:41:47 PM)

quote:

What server you play on Frag ?


Not anymore ... Look up Bite Sized on Belv ... ex-wife might still be at it.



Burzmali -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 7:31:55 PM)

I'll toss my vote in with the nay-sayers, $70 if definitely too high of a price. I've been keeping up with the AARs for months, but I can't imagine paying $70 for any computer game. I figure I'll catch it on e-bay for $20-$30, within a year or two. But, I will thank you for not releasing a demo, it does wonders for driving down the price of used copies...

It's not like Matrix has much a choice in future pricing. If tomorrow they drop the price to $50, they'll have half the people who bought the game in the last month ready to tear the company a new one. That's the benefit of distributors, all they care about is profit, they'll drop the price to whatever they have to to get units off their shelves while recovering as much of their costs as possible.



Mr.Frag -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 7:54:07 PM)

quote:

I figure I'll catch it on e-bay for $20-$30


Considering there isn't a single one on E-Bay ... that might tell you something about the game ... Pick any other title and look on E-Bay ... betcha you find a bunch.

Funny, just for a laugh, Hearts of Irons II is up on E-Bay ... half the countries don't even have it for sale yet.



Rob322 -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 9:28:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

I figure I'll catch it on e-bay for $20-$30


Considering there isn't a single one on E-Bay ... that might tell you something about the game ... Pick any other title and look on E-Bay ... betcha you find a bunch.

Funny, just for a laugh, Hearts of Irons II is up on E-Bay ... half the countries don't even have it for sale yet.


Ahh Hearts of Iron. I enjoyed that for maybe a week but just couldn't keep playing something so crazy. I remember playing as Brazil and taking over all of South America and large chunks of the Mid East by about 1940 while all the other powers just sort of looked at each other. No one really reacted at all until I had annexed Australia! [:D] After that though, it just offended me on some level, it was just getting rather silly.



Nikademus -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 9:42:03 PM)

I paid $80.00 for War in Russia....the 8bit Atari version, back in the 80's......with paper-route money.

$70.00 for a game in 2005 of an even bigger scale and level of complexity, on a subject i have keen interest in, with money not made from a paper route doesn't put my nose out of wack.

Frankly i'm amazed its not more expensive than a similar game 20 years ago.



Rob322 -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 9:45:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Burzmali

I'll toss my vote in with the nay-sayers, $70 if definitely too high of a price. I've been keeping up with the AARs for months, but I can't imagine paying $70 for any computer game. I figure I'll catch it on e-bay for $20-$30, within a year or two. But, I will thank you for not releasing a demo, it does wonders for driving down the price of used copies...

It's not like Matrix has much a choice in future pricing. If tomorrow they drop the price to $50, they'll have half the people who bought the game in the last month ready to tear the company a new one. That's the benefit of distributors, all they care about is profit, they'll drop the price to whatever they have to to get units off their shelves while recovering as much of their costs as possible.


Shelves? You think this game is in the stores? Not likely. Two things to consider on the price.

1) This isn't Hearts of Iron or any similar game. It is a monster game filled with a massive amount of detail (another reason a demo would be pointless). More game = more money. I'm sure they could've sold us something cheaper, with a lot fewer items in it and much less realism and richness. But then why bother? There are already games of that type on the market.

2) Market forces play here too. As in, how many copies can they reasonably expect to sell. If you expect to sell X number of units, then you come up with a price to hopefully cover costs and make a profit. Perhaps if they expected to sell more units they would've lowered the price. Not to be elitist, but this game is not for the average gamer. They'll hate it. There's no cool 3-D graphics, there's very little instant gratification (I've literally spent three weeks of real time planning an invasion that I started last night) that the "twitch & click" games give you, and it's not a SIMwhatever (cool enough games that are still seriously dumbed down for the general public). This is not dumbed down at all. You will be expected to know historical details, understand how to plan and prepare invasion forces and fight a competent game. Finally, it is extremely slow moving. I'm currently in 2/43 in a game I started in November 04. 3 months of life have been taken up by one battle! I can't recall any game demanding so much time expect for the Star Trek based board game called Federation & Empire (which was also an amaziningly detailed game). No other board or computer game goes that long and the simple reason is that most people don't have the interest level required in the subject to sustain the interest in such a long and complex game. This sort of game is never going tob e a top seller and is going to have extremely limited appeal to spread to others. I'm sure board games used to have the same issues, doubtless Risk sold far many more copies than say Pacific War.

That said, the price is what it is. I bought it nad never looked back. I've spent a lot more in total for games that have received far less time from me than this one so it balances out.



Tom Hunter -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 10:52:33 PM)

I am not complaining about the price. I think the game is a great value and I am very happy with spending the $70.

I am commenting on the pricing strategy and the pricing strategy does have effect on sales. All the personal anecdote on this thread will not change that one bit. Some people think the price is too high, others think its fine.

But as a pricing strategy guy if everyone who bought the game at $70 really does think the price is fine then Matrix could have gotten more money for it and the current price may be too low because the Grognard market (judging from these forums) is price insensitive.

If we look at the cost of entertainment per hour WitP is a great value. Maybe 10 cents an hour, maybe less? compare it to a movie ticket which is $2-4 dollars an hour. So is WitP a great value because its cheap on a per hour basis or is Matrix a bunch of idiots for underpricing thier product (on an hourly basis) by a factor of 10 or 20x? Of course the correct answer is none of the above, I am trying to illustrate how complex the problem really is.

My point is there is no right price and also there is no price that makes people happy. Price is what people are willing to pay and lower prices do not make people happy, higher prices do not make them unhappy. Good and bad value make people happy and unhappy.

This arguement is mostly two groups of people talking past eachother. There are happy customers who have $70 who are saying this game is a good value. (I agree with this)

There are other people who don't have $70 who are saying I don't have $70 for this game but I do have $50 and would buy the game for that amount. They are not unhappy, they just don't have $70 for the game. (which is different from not having $70 so please don't argue about priorities on thier part.)

If your price is $70 only people with $70 for a game will buy the game. I strongly believe that this simple pricing strategy leaves money on the table that Matrix could get if they had a more sophisticated pricing strategy. I really don't care if everyone here is happy with the $70 they spent, I am happy with it too but our happiness has nothing to do with good pricing strategy, it just means we are happy.



2ndACR -> RE: You're losing sales with no demo/high price (2/3/2005 10:57:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Burzmali

I'll toss my vote in with the nay-sayers, $70 if definitely too high of a price. I've been keeping up with the AARs for months, but I can't imagine paying $70 for any computer game. I figure I'll catch it on e-bay for $20-$30, within a year or two. But, I will thank you for not releasing a demo, it does wonders for driving down the price of used copies...

It's not like Matrix has much a choice in future pricing. If tomorrow they drop the price to $50, they'll have half the people who bought the game in the last month ready to tear the company a new one. That's the benefit of distributors, all they care about is profit, they'll drop the price to whatever they have to to get units off their shelves while recovering as much of their costs as possible.


Good luck getting it on ebay. I do not think WITP has really lost a customer that paid for the game yet. At least to my knowledge. A few have stopped playing until a few of the more persistant bugs get quashed, but they will be back at it soon.

Seeing as how UV is still priced at 50 bucks here at Matrix, I do not see WITP going for any less anytime soon. WITP is not available in retail stores, so no bargain bin for it to go to.

Your loss and you will have a LOOOONNNNGGGGGGG wait until you find a copy for sale and then the person selling it to you will have lost the code and you will be stuck with version 1.0.



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