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RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 2/8/2008 12:30:21 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

The quick and dirty way to do this is to make them mountain terrain, since air units can not base in mountains. I guess we could add a new terrain type to cover this, but that would be a lot of work.


This was already done in some key island chains, such as the Bonin and the Marianas, where we nearly have the same number of possible places to base planes.

This said, I would love if we had an "Atoll" terrain type in the game. It would only allow to stack 1 seaplane, and nothing else (no land unit, no ships).
I already said that ? Really ?

The only work it would need would be :
- Make the Graphic artist draw something recognisable, especially noting that only a small portion of that drawing will be shown, as 95% of the hex will be covered with water.
- Change the map data and transform some islands in Atoll. This I can do easily and gladly .

There are more than a few rules that check terrain type. Every line of code that references terrain type would have to address the new type, if only to ignore it. That's a lot of code.

OK.
Even if we do not have a new terrain for atolls, I seriously doubt that we will have an issue with the islands of the Pacific.
As I said, for the most critical group of islands (Bonins & Marianas) I tried to have the number of hexes be the same in MWiF and WiF by making some of the extra ones mountains. But this was talked about a very long time ago.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 211
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 2/8/2008 1:19:51 PM   
marcuswatney

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Is it this map that you talk about ?
Or is your WitP another game ?


WitP = War in the Pacific, the Grendal's Mother of monster games, published by SPI in the late seventies. It is so detailed and challenging that I have promised myself to start playing it for real (as opposed to just drooling over the map and the pieces) when I retire.

Nicky Palmer used to play it a lot, flying over to America to join a group of enthusiasts for a week of WitP. I could never afford the time.

I remember that it was so detailed that to build an airfield not only did you have to get an engineer to the island (none of this relaxed MWiF attitude that hexes have intrinsic airfields!) but you also had to get supplies there which the engineers would consume over several weeks. You could see exactly why the Americans didn't bother to invade Guadalcanal until the Japanese had almost completed their airstrip. Also, with no intrinsic airfields, the few like Guadalcanal really were worth fighting over.

I think it had weekly turns.

The game has been a collector's item for decades. In the eighties it was the most valuable board game on the secondhand market, in three figures even in those days (probably four now).

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 212
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 2/8/2008 6:56:16 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Is it this map that you talk about ?
Or is your WitP another game ?


WitP = War in the Pacific, the Grendal's Mother of monster games, published by SPI in the late seventies. It is so detailed and challenging that I have promised myself to start playing it for real (as opposed to just drooling over the map and the pieces) when I retire.

Nicky Palmer used to play it a lot, flying over to America to join a group of enthusiasts for a week of WitP. I could never afford the time.

I remember that it was so detailed that to build an airfield not only did you have to get an engineer to the island (none of this relaxed MWiF attitude that hexes have intrinsic airfields!) but you also had to get supplies there which the engineers would consume over several weeks. You could see exactly why the Americans didn't bother to invade Guadalcanal until the Japanese had almost completed their airstrip. Also, with no intrinsic airfields, the few like Guadalcanal really were worth fighting over.

I think it had weekly turns.

The game has been a collector's item for decades. In the eighties it was the most valuable board game on the secondhand market, in three figures even in those days (probably four now).

You actually caused me to go see if I own a copy. Sadly, it is one of the few SPI games that I do not own. I do have War in Europe, the predecessor to War in the Pacific and a couple of copies of War in the East (War in Europe's predecessor). We played War in the East so much we wore out the counters and the maps. All these games have 4 game turns per month with production done monthly - they also have fixed weather.

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Post #: 213
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 2/8/2008 7:46:00 PM   
marcuswatney

 

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Yes, SPI were never too strong on weather effects.  But I think it was that family of games (WitP, WitE, WitW) which introduced the production spiral, a brilliant visual aid which let you see immediately what lead time each unit to be constructed required to get them all coming off the stocks simultaneously.  Is MWiF going to have the same sort of visual depiction of units under construction?

I have War in the East (and War in the West) somewhere, but I was never too keen on them because the units were generic and rather banal.  For me GDW's Drang Nach Osten was the best East Front game - so much colour, and with good armour and anti-armour effects.  I had DNO mounted on the bedroom wall for a year or two and I remember my girlfriend saying that the Kola peninsula looked like Snoopy's nose (the map projection has made MWiF's Kola peninsula a bit too elongated).

Can't look at that place now without seeing a friendly beagle!

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 214
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 2/8/2008 9:07:38 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Yes, Fire in the East has more detail, but it was a bear to set up. And the stacking density required steady hands holding the tweezers (I still own 4 sets of medical tweezers).

Here is how MWIF shows production - it is one of several 'pools' of units. Note that '1st' and '2nd' indicate whether the unit is in it first or second trip around the the production 'spiral'.




Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 215
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 2/10/2008 4:26:14 AM   
brian brian

 

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we won't be able to look at the classic production spiral?

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Post #: 216
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 2/10/2008 4:57:39 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

we won't be able to look at the classic production spiral?

I assume as a player you are familiar with the main problem with the production spiral: large stacks of units.

This layout permits over 50 units to be viewed simultaneously without scrolling. I have been thinking about making it 4 rows high, which would change that number to around 70. You can also filter which units are displayed a zillion different ways (e.g., Allied air units only).

Besides the difficulties of drawing the spiral, showing a lot of units would not be possible. For example, the screen shot above only shows the Nov/Dec reinforcements in 1939. Once the US enters the war, the number of units produced increases enormously.

And while everyone likes looking at the large stack of reinforcements he has coming in each turn, I think that passion can be sated by looking at long lists equally well. As shown above, the Axis is bringing in 14 units to the Allies paltry 7.

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Steve

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Post #: 217
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 2/10/2008 5:21:10 AM   
brian brian

 

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one solution in the paper game is to use two spirals, one Axis and one Allied

the paper spiral gets crowded because the size of it is fixed; computer screens with scroll bars are less prone to this problem

anyway, just another thing to get used to. I'm just about as content to read a list of what was produced each turn as to look at the spiral.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 218
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 12/27/2008 8:12:35 PM   
fiveof6


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I realize I am extraordinarily late to the game, but here's what I know about Pago Pago.

Getting from the north side to the south would have been virtually impossible due to the spine of a mountain range that runs the length of the island from east to west. While the Tutuila (the name of the island that has Pago Pago) is 100% covered with foliage, the steepness of the mountain range is what would hamper operations the most.

In 1941, Pago Pago was administered by the US Navy as an American Territory. The eastern part of the Samoan Island chain was(is still) known as American Samoa. The islands that the British (New Zealanders) gained from Germany by the conclusion of WWI at the west end of the island chain was known as Western Samoa and in 1995 became "Independent State of Samoa."

Pago Pago is correctly depicted as mountain terrain, but the area should be called "American Samoa"

Kevin

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 219
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 12/27/2008 8:47:34 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fiveof6

I realize I am extraordinarily late to the game, but here's what I know about Pago Pago.

Getting from the north side to the south would have been virtually impossible due to the spine of a mountain range that runs the length of the island from east to west. While the Tutuila (the name of the island that has Pago Pago) is 100% covered with foliage, the steepness of the mountain range is what would hamper operations the most.

In 1941, Pago Pago was administered by the US Navy as an American Territory. The eastern part of the Samoan Island chain was(is still) known as American Samoa. The islands that the British (New Zealanders) gained from Germany by the conclusion of WWI at the west end of the island chain was known as Western Samoa and in 1995 became "Independent State of Samoa."

Pago Pago is correctly depicted as mountain terrain, but the area should be called "American Samoa"

Kevin

Welcome to the forum.

The strength of the game, especially the map, lies in the many contributions made by members of the forum. As always, I will let Patrice decide about changes to the map. Our goal is to make it as accurate as possible within the restirctions imposed by the scale and a few other considerations (game play being our other major concern).

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Post #: 220
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 12/27/2008 9:15:05 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fiveof6

I realize I am extraordinarily late to the game, but here's what I know about Pago Pago.

Getting from the north side to the south would have been virtually impossible due to the spine of a mountain range that runs the length of the island from east to west. While the Tutuila (the name of the island that has Pago Pago) is 100% covered with foliage, the steepness of the mountain range is what would hamper operations the most.

In 1941, Pago Pago was administered by the US Navy as an American Territory. The eastern part of the Samoan Island chain was(is still) known as American Samoa. The islands that the British (New Zealanders) gained from Germany by the conclusion of WWI at the west end of the island chain was known as Western Samoa and in 1995 became "Independent State of Samoa."

Pago Pago is correctly depicted as mountain terrain, but the area should be called "American Samoa"

Kevin

I agree to the names change. I double checked on my 40s maps.
I'll do them.

Plus, now that you put the searchlight over the Samoa, I also found other changes /additions to do there :
• Add Tutuila as a name for the Pago Pago Island (size 8) (fiveof6).
• Add Upolu as a name for the Apia Island (size 8) (Froonp).
• Replace Samoa island name to Savai’i (Froonp).
• Replace Eastern Samoa name to American Samoa (Standard Map CGA.CSV) (fiveof6).
• Replace Western Samoa name to Samoa Islands (Standard Map CGA.CSV) (Froonp).

(in reply to fiveof6)
Post #: 221
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 12/27/2008 10:49:45 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: fiveof6

I realize I am extraordinarily late to the game, but here's what I know about Pago Pago.

Getting from the north side to the south would have been virtually impossible due to the spine of a mountain range that runs the length of the island from east to west. While the Tutuila (the name of the island that has Pago Pago) is 100% covered with foliage, the steepness of the mountain range is what would hamper operations the most.

In 1941, Pago Pago was administered by the US Navy as an American Territory. The eastern part of the Samoan Island chain was(is still) known as American Samoa. The islands that the British (New Zealanders) gained from Germany by the conclusion of WWI at the west end of the island chain was known as Western Samoa and in 1995 became "Independent State of Samoa."

Pago Pago is correctly depicted as mountain terrain, but the area should be called "American Samoa"

Kevin

I agree to the names change. I double checked on my 40s maps.
I'll do them.

Plus, now that you put the searchlight over the Samoa, I also found other changes /additions to do there :
• Add Tutuila as a name for the Pago Pago Island (size 8) (fiveof6).
• Add Upolu as a name for the Apia Island (size 8) (Froonp).
• Replace Samoa island name to Savai’i (Froonp).
• Replace Eastern Samoa name to American Samoa (Standard Map CGA.CSV) (fiveof6).
• Replace Western Samoa name to Samoa Islands (Standard Map CGA.CSV) (Froonp).


You know what ?
All 3 first in this list are already done. I had already did them some time ago indeed.

There still are the 2 territories names to be changed.
- Eastern Samoa name changed to American Samoa (Standard Map CGA.CSV) (fiveof6).
- Western Samoa name changed to Samoa Islands (Standard Map CGA.CSV) (Froonp).

Steve, changing them will invalidate saved games won't it ? I'd better wait until 15 January, or 15 February to do them ?

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 222
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 12/27/2008 11:55:15 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: fiveof6

I realize I am extraordinarily late to the game, but here's what I know about Pago Pago.

Getting from the north side to the south would have been virtually impossible due to the spine of a mountain range that runs the length of the island from east to west. While the Tutuila (the name of the island that has Pago Pago) is 100% covered with foliage, the steepness of the mountain range is what would hamper operations the most.

In 1941, Pago Pago was administered by the US Navy as an American Territory. The eastern part of the Samoan Island chain was(is still) known as American Samoa. The islands that the British (New Zealanders) gained from Germany by the conclusion of WWI at the west end of the island chain was known as Western Samoa and in 1995 became "Independent State of Samoa."

Pago Pago is correctly depicted as mountain terrain, but the area should be called "American Samoa"

Kevin

I agree to the names change. I double checked on my 40s maps.
I'll do them.

Plus, now that you put the searchlight over the Samoa, I also found other changes /additions to do there :
• Add Tutuila as a name for the Pago Pago Island (size 8) (fiveof6).
• Add Upolu as a name for the Apia Island (size 8) (Froonp).
• Replace Samoa island name to Savai’i (Froonp).
• Replace Eastern Samoa name to American Samoa (Standard Map CGA.CSV) (fiveof6).
• Replace Western Samoa name to Samoa Islands (Standard Map CGA.CSV) (Froonp).


You know what ?
All 3 first in this list are already done. I had already did them some time ago indeed.

There still are the 2 territories names to be changed.
- Eastern Samoa name changed to American Samoa (Standard Map CGA.CSV) (fiveof6).
- Western Samoa name changed to Samoa Islands (Standard Map CGA.CSV) (Froonp).

Steve, changing them will invalidate saved games won't it ? I'd better wait until 15 January, or 15 February to do them ?

I am not sure. Try changing one of them and see if it has any effect on restoring saved games.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 223
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 12/28/2008 7:41:29 AM   
Zorachus99


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Yes, Fire in the East has more detail, but it was a bear to set up. And the stacking density required steady hands holding the tweezers (I still own 4 sets of medical tweezers).

Here is how MWIF shows production - it is one of several 'pools' of units. Note that '1st' and '2nd' indicate whether the unit is in it first or second trip around the the production 'spiral'.





I would very much like to pick at this picture.

1) The allies and axis should be separated somehow, at least by side. The current order is US, Japan, Germany, Italy, CW? Furthermore, the columns of units should be only of a single MP. It could be extremely distracting to look at three different MP's on the same column.

2) Many of us are used to seeing everything on the spiral at the same time. Can we have a 'current major power' production display that shows what is in all six of the turns, sorted? A rectangle is fine. When assesing production it is very helpful to view what is on the spiral for the MP that you are working on.
Low priority since it's a feature request ;)

Ideas ideas...



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Post #: 224
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 12/28/2008 8:43:29 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Yes, Fire in the East has more detail, but it was a bear to set up. And the stacking density required steady hands holding the tweezers (I still own 4 sets of medical tweezers).

Here is how MWIF shows production - it is one of several 'pools' of units. Note that '1st' and '2nd' indicate whether the unit is in it first or second trip around the the production 'spiral'.





I would very much like to pick at this picture.

1) The allies and axis should be separated somehow, at least by side. The current order is US, Japan, Germany, Italy, CW? Furthermore, the columns of units should be only of a single MP. It could be extremely distracting to look at three different MP's on the same column.

2) Many of us are used to seeing everything on the spiral at the same time. Can we have a 'current major power' production display that shows what is in all six of the turns, sorted? A rectangle is fine. When assesing production it is very helpful to view what is on the spiral for the MP that you are working on.
Low priority since it's a feature request ;)

Ideas ideas...



The filter lets you restrict what is shown by roughly 200 different slices. In this case the obvious ones would be by major power and unit type.

You would then have to click on each bimonth to see them all - but only one bimonth at a time. The update is virtually instantaneous.

So if you set the filter (which you can save for future use), it would be only a moment's work to click through all 6 bimonths to see all the air units and pilots coming in for the CW (for example).

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Steve

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Post #: 225
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 12/28/2008 8:22:35 PM   
Zorachus99


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Oh.  Cool!

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Post #: 226
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 1/2/2009 4:41:50 PM   
fiveof6


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'There still are the 2 territories names to be changed.
- Eastern Samoa name changed to American Samoa (Standard Map CGA.CSV) (fiveof6).
- Western Samoa name changed to Samoa Islands (Standard Map CGA.CSV) (Froonp)."


The entire Island Chain would be the Samoa Islands.
Savai'i and Upolu were known as Western Samoa.
Tutuila Manua Tau were/are known as American Samoa

Kevin

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 227
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 11/19/2009 1:21:41 AM   
Vypuero


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I have a question about Papeete and Bora Bora - according to what I see, it is Bora Bora that became the large US Military base, NOT Papeete - so why is the naval base located on the wrong island?

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Post #: 228
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 11/19/2009 2:17:51 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vypuero

I have a question about Papeete and Bora Bora - according to what I see, it is Bora Bora that became the large US Military base, NOT Papeete - so why is the naval base located on the wrong island?

This decision was made by Australian Design Group for the board game. My task is to convert it over to the computer. In a few rare instances we have made changes to the map. In this case the change you suggest might affect game play significantly.

But actually, I have no idea why they made the decision they did.

Here's a current screen shot of that area.
===




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 229
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 11/19/2009 2:55:48 AM   
Vypuero


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Yes I see - I was curious if I was missing something historic though if anyone knows.

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Post #: 230
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 11/19/2009 7:54:30 AM   
paulderynck


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Most games those islands go Vichy and sit in peaceful solitude until Vichy ceases to exist. Would have been a great place to be a French marine during WWII.

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Post #: 231
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 11/19/2009 1:49:02 PM   
micheljq


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This naval base could become important in the case USA lose Honolulu to the japanese, a rare occurrence indeed.

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Post #: 232
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 6/16/2010 1:19:00 PM   
Kham

 

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Looking at the map with Truk

Geographical accuracy is a good thing I suppose. But you have to consider if those small islands really could support a WIF counter worth of aircraft.

I guess it is really, really late for changes like that, but those Islands that are too small for that ought to be removed IMO.

(in reply to micheljq)
Post #: 233
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 6/16/2010 4:29:33 PM   
Anendrue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kham

Looking at the map with Truk

Geographical accuracy is a good thing I suppose. But you have to consider if those small islands really could support a WIF counter worth of aircraft.

I guess it is really, really late for changes like that, but those Islands that are too small for that ought to be removed IMO.

One of the things I like about WiF and MWiF is that you can not possibly cover everything on the map. Because of that you will have to strategically place your aircraft according to their tactical abilities to accomplish specific missions. So the extra islands on the map usually become more of an aesthetic issue and do not change game play.

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Post #: 234
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 6/16/2010 5:42:33 PM   
brian brian

 

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WiF makes cheap land-based air sooo dominant at sea ... and then reinforces this by handing out bases for land-based air like candy, and MWiF will magnify this.
There are so many islands for the defending side at the time to defend, it is better to just counterattack the ones the offensive side starts to base planes on, if you can. Once the other side has the right island, an HQ and an engineer, the long range A6M2 or P-38s or F4U's or F6F's make huge sea zones into a no-go zone for your precious CVs.

Another problem is the pure modeling of plane technical specs, and not the relationship between oil supplies and pilot training. Japan had some great planes to the end of the war, in my non-expert opinion, and the WiF counters reflect that some. Fortunately for the good guys, their combat pilots no longer had equivalent flying hours to the American pilots, but that's a topic for some future edition of the game, something the existence of MWiF can only help bring about.

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 235
RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands - 6/16/2010 6:51:20 PM   
micheljq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

WiF makes cheap land-based air sooo dominant at sea ... and then reinforces this by handing out bases for land-based air like candy, and MWiF will magnify this.
There are so many islands for the defending side at the time to defend, it is better to just counterattack the ones the offensive side starts to base planes on, if you can. Once the other side has the right island, an HQ and an engineer, the long range A6M2 or P-38s or F4U's or F6F's make huge sea zones into a no-go zone for your precious CVs.



The way I see it for this case, then you must have your own land based support aircraft if you want your fleet, even your CVs, penetrating such a defended sea zone.
I have seen an american player get blasted when going with his fleet without proper support in such a defended sea zone.

In a sea battle the american was unfortunate he lost 4 carriers and the japanese had one carrier damaged and a couple of NAVs shut down.

< Message edited by micheljq -- 6/16/2010 8:18:25 PM >


_____________________________

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"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

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Post #: 236
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