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RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/2/2006 6:57:25 AM   
Silvanski


Posts: 2506
Joined: 1/23/2005
From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
Status: offline 		It's available I see  http://www.wargamer.com/gamesdepot/details.asp?sid=4358

One question: why is "Anvers"/Antwerp situated in The Netherlands?

< Message edited by Silvanski -- 9/2/2006 7:06:35 AM >

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The TOAW Redux Dude

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Post #: 31
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/2/2006 1:36:02 PM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

It's available I see http://www.wargamer.com/gamesdepot/details.asp?sid=4358

One question: why is "Anvers"/Antwerp situated in The Netherlands?


Uhh.. dunno.

But I take it that is incorrect.

Sorry, I pretty much used the map as I found it. The only differences were adding in Portugal, Turkey and clearing away loads and loads of roads and railroads.

Ray (alias Lava)

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Post #: 32
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario available! - 9/2/2006 1:40:20 PM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline 		However...

It's out and I hope folks enjoy the scenario. I may regret this, but feedback is definately welcome.



For those unsure what is going on with the scenario, here is the scenario description:
_________

The Fourth Republic

Designed by Ray (aka Lava) Rivers
rayriverss@hotmail.com

Based on Patrick Feyret's Scenario "39-45"

**********

Single Player Only
Allies computer vs human player

**********

Map size: All of Europe
Map scale: 50 km
Time scale: Weekly turns
Unit scale: Corps/Divisions
Length : 190 turns

**********

Important Events

Research (allowing the player his choice of advanced weapons) ends turn 4.

The player receives a shock advantage from turn 2 through 10.

Loss of the "Napoleon VI" counter ends in automatic defeat.

Loss of Paris ends in automatic defeat.

Capture of key countries enables reinforcements and bonuses to supply.

Russia and Turkey declare war on France turn 116.

Supply points for the invasion of the United Kingdom are only enabled by the capture of Moscow.

The conquest of the United Kingdom ends the game in automatic Victory for the player.

**********

Research Islands

Research Islands is constructed to give the player an option on what "future" units he would like to see join his forces.

A research item is selected by placing the civilian "Researchers" counter on a ship and landing him on an island.

The only restraint the player has on choice is that he may only choose one item per horizontal line. Thus, for example, if the player wishes to begin research on "LR Bomber" he may do so on his first move. But will be blocked from researching "Missile" on his subsequent move.

All research will eventually result in additional forces with the exception of "Nucs" which is based on probability of discovery.

**********

Historical Overview

The Fourth Republic scenario is a hypothetical study in the operational art of war. The player is thrust into the position as Emperor of France during the late 1930's. Surrounded by fascist regimes, the player must unite Europe in a time when that continent, still reeling from the huge losses of World War I was unable to unite to face a common aggressor. As Napoleon VI, you must use this hesitancy to your advantage. Move aggressively to expand your empire as quickly as possible before the combined forces of Russia and Turkey declare war.

**********

Designer Notes

As a hypothetical study all Orders of Battle are merely representative and not historically based.

The intention of the game is to present the player with an overwhelming opponent.

The player must be able to attack, and yet at the same time defend, especially during the first 20 turns.

To guide the player, certain events are scheduled to provoke responses by the United Kingdom. Be wary of such events unless you can move boldly to contain British reinforcements.

VIVE L'EMPEROR!

GOOD LUCK and have FUN!

Ray (aka Lava) Rivers

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RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/3/2006 1:58:14 AM   
Silvanski


Posts: 2506
Joined: 1/23/2005
From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

It's available I see http://www.wargamer.com/gamesdepot/details.asp?sid=4358

One question: why is "Anvers"/Antwerp situated in The Netherlands?


Uhh.. dunno.

But I take it that is incorrect.

Ray (alias Lava)


Err yeah it is... I know you used an existing map design and I understand very well that it's not easy outlining small countries like the BeNeLux on a hexagonal grid, especially when it's a smaller scale map where one wants to represent as much as Europe as possible... No problem, I re-aligned the Dutch Belgian border above the Anvers hex in the editor.

Edit to add that I played a few turns and it seems a nifty scenario... I like the variability you built in using your research island. Good job Lava!


< Message edited by Silvanski -- 9/3/2006 1:59:56 AM >

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The TOAW Redux Dude

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Post #: 34
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/3/2006 4:39:50 AM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline 		Hi!

Sorry about the map error.. I assumed (get's you in trouble everytime) it was correct.

My bad.

Ray (alias Lava)

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Post #: 35
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/8/2006 4:23:08 AM   
ceyan

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		Been playing it off and on over the last week, and I'm having a lot of trouble trying to figure out how to advance. I played one game through all the way where I took the slow and steady approach (which is more my style as I'm definitely much more focused on a defensive strategy than offensive - in general), which worked over time. However, by the time Russia declared war and opened up I was still working on Poland and Bulgaria and hadn't even had a chance ot enter Spain or Portugal. I think my problem mostly stemmed from not having a good idea of what to do from the start.

So far the best bet I've seen is to hold the Rhine with the 2nd Army and push with the 1st, 5th and Imperial Guard into north Germany. The big problem I've seen with that is you can only go a few hexes into Italy, using the 3rd Army, without additional support. And thanks to the British I haven't found a way to secure Spain and Portugal even with the help of the 5th. And without the 5th I get my butt handed to me by the combined German/British onslaught from Belgium. Haven't even found a way to hold an effective line with just the Guard and 1st.

Also I'm not sure how to handle the North African side of things. I've never been able to hold Tunisia, and given the situation I'm pretty sure that's meant to be the case. My first play through I didn't even hold Algeria, by the time you can match the Italians (turn 10) the Italians had linked up with the Spanish. My second time, when I did actually hold Algeria (by just abandoning Tunisia) I only managed that much by using the cheese tactic of running my fleets over Tripoli to utterly kill the Allied supply lines.

I'm sure 99% of the problem is my newbie status and my inability to break the German line without using every non-essential counter (and even then only pushing them back a single hex every other turn or so).

Oh yeah, shouldn't there be something in Iraq? Even if just a fortress unit? Right now my first move (after I found out late in my first game) is to run the Levant HQ unit to Mossoul and pick up the free oil bonus.

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 36
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/8/2006 1:50:23 PM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline 		Hi!

In designing the scenario I felt France would really find itself in a very difficult starting position. It is virtually surrounded by hostile countries. It's colonies are vulnerable and it's one ally, Finland cutoff from reinforcement.

The player needs to take himself back to the 1930's. Think about what had been happening on the continent at that time. He has three fronts, the eastern (Germany/Belgium), southeastern (Italy) and western front (Spain). The player must succeed on one of those fronts. He has a shock bonus from turn 2-10. The player must take advantage of the bonus and attack. These first 10 moves are the most critical to the game.

The answer is there if one places himself in the historical context and correctly evaluates his opponents ability to wage war at that time. You are not strong enough to go toe to toe with all of europe, so you must come up with a strategy which pits strength against vulnerability.

This is why I struggled with whether or not to put "tips" into the game. Unlike a replay of the second world war, the player has no precedence from which to follow, only his skills in the operational art of war.

Perhaps it would help if folks understand that I have taken the relative military strategies of France and Germany and swapped them.

I could say more, but in so doing, I would basically solve the problem for folks by telling you how to "breakout." I grant you that the scenario is based on premises which I believe to have existed at the time and which could be debated, however, it is after all a hypothetical scenario. If, however, you are really struggling, drop me a PM and I'll be happy to give you a couple tips on getting started.

* Maxim 79 - "The first principle of a general-in-chief is to calculate what he must do, to see if he has all the means to surmount the obstacles with which the enemy can oppose him and, when he had made his decision, to do everything to overcome them." Napoleon

* "Superior weight at the intended decisive point does not suffice unless that point cannot be reinforced in time by the opponent." Liddel Hart

* "Now an army may be likened to water, for just as flowing water avoids the heights and hastens to the lowlands, so an army avoids strength and strikes weakness." Sun Tzu

Ray (alias Lava)

< Message edited by Lava -- 9/8/2006 6:29:57 PM >

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RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/9/2006 12:28:52 AM   
Karri

 

Posts: 1137
Joined: 5/24/2006
Status: offline 		Very interesting scenario. I'm at trun 38, and right now only Britain, Greece and Spain stand in my way(of course there's Russia and Turkey, but they're not my enemies yet). I started my Grand offensive by attacking towards Belgium and Holland, I moved everything I had there. By turn 10 I was within 3 hexes of Berlin, and soon after my tanks rolled there. Must say though, there were some troubled turns as my forces were quite depleted and exhausted from time to time. Actually, at one point I was sure I wasn't going to make it, when all of a sudden the AI launched series of suicide attacks against my lines, crippling the entire German army in them.

Anyways, after that Poland fell then Italy and most of Balkans. I noticed that the tank divisions were quite strong, in fact my usual strategy was to drive them through the enemy lines and into their capital, made the fighting quite easy.

Two things however:
1. Air units, due to the scale the attacker is pretty much always decimated. The AI kept loosing whole air untis in each attack it made. My losses weren't small either.
2. Rail Repair. Only one RR unit? Makes supply situation quite unbearable.

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 38
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/9/2006 12:42:32 AM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline 		Hi!

Thanks for the feedback.

Yes, the AI air units are indeed quite suicidal, I couldn't figure out how to fix that.

As for the rail repair, you get another one later on in the scenario and the one you start with I think you will find can be divided when it reaches its full compliment of rail repair crews. I limited the scenario to a single repair unit to stress the player.

BTW.. you dodged a lot of bullets by moving so quickly. Didn't think the tank units were THAT strong and able to do that much damage. Guess I should have have placed those allied objectives on Paris to force the player to have to commit more to defense, but I thought that would put too much pressure on the player. I'm still a rookie at scenario design.

Once again, thanks for the feedback.

Ray (alias Lava)

< Message edited by Lava -- 9/9/2006 1:22:22 AM >

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Post #: 39
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/9/2006 7:14:25 AM   
ceyan

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		Is there a trigger for the British Invasion force landing in Spain? Just playing through again and I was doing pretty good (I'd managed to take out Italy with a concentrated push, and thanks to the PO using the BEF to hook around into Germany, I was able to make a suicide attempt on Amsterdam that worked out) but on turn 9 they showed up suddenly, and I can't figure out what I did to spark it. Since I don't remember them showing up this early before, I had to have done something (or my memory could just be shot to hell).

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 40
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/9/2006 12:30:38 PM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ceyan

Is there a trigger for the British Invasion force landing in Spain?


Yep, and you activated it.

It's a big hint actually.

Ray (alias Lava)

< Message edited by Lava -- 9/9/2006 12:34:10 PM >

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Post #: 41
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/10/2006 6:10:15 PM   
Karri

 

Posts: 1137
Joined: 5/24/2006
Status: offline 		Played a bit further and only Norway, Sweden, Britain, Turkey and USSR stand before me now, I doubt any of those can resist my armies now...the 'foreign legions' are a bit too big methinks. Anyways the tank divisions are quite powerful, but the main problem is that the AI leaves the capitals undefended and the garrisons that they have can be destroyed too easily. They are very weak units...

And btw. the Greeks didn't withdraw after I took their capital.

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 42
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/10/2006 8:29:14 PM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Played a bit further and only Norway, Sweden, Britain, Turkey and USSR stand before me now, I doubt any of those can resist my armies now...the 'foreign legions' are a bit too big methinks.


The scenario was constructed for the player to have all the legions at his disposal for the attack on Russia. Good hunting!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri
And btw. the Greeks didn't withdraw after I took their capital.



Not surprising. The withdrawal army thing doesn't always work. However, there is a backup secondary trigger to withdraw all armies either 15 or 25 moves after the first should have done its job.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

the main problem is that the AI leaves the capitals undefended and the garrisons that they have can be destroyed too easily.


Indeed, the AI has an awkward way of sometimes completely adandoning his primary objective.

Overall, I think the problem here is, even though I anticipated someone completely ignoring fronts and flooding a sector, I felt the eastern front (Belgium, Holland, Germany and the UK) could resist this tactic. You did what I thought, could not be done. So, essentially, you have found a big flaw in the scenario.. and thus, revealed a major shortcoming in the design.

I thought I had put together a pretty tough scenario, but it appears, in some respects, one needs to be almost brutal.

Ray (alias Lava)

< Message edited by Lava -- 9/10/2006 8:33:41 PM >

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Post #: 43
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/11/2006 12:53:26 AM   
ceyan

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		After catching a bad bug, I had some free time, so I decided to plunk down and play again. I'm just about to go to war with the Soviets. This time I more or less did what Kari did, I took every available guy northeast around the fortress line. I actually played two games, because the first game I played I found out that trying to hold the Italian line without one of the Infantry Corps (which I took away) just didn't work. Anyways, second time through everything was much better. I managed to hit Berlin somewhere around turn 40, although it was a severe pain the butt getting there. Can't even remember how many times I was cut off and nearly surrounded because I forced myself to be extra aggressive.

Ran into a problem right around that time, I'd banked on the German units bugging out, and they didn't, so I suffered some major defeats for a few turns up around Kiel (where I had pocketed just about everything but the German 5th Army, then held on with just enough strength to last me to Berlin). They still haven't left, although all the Germans have are fighters and bombers.

Managed to take over mainland Europe somewhere around turn 60, although it was pure luck. I dropped two of teh Colonial legions (over time) in Albania (I hadn't conquered Italy yet, just took out thier fleets and ran through Tarento. That distracted quite a few Bulgarian and Greek units while I pushed through Yugoslavia and Rumania. One oddity that almost killed me, sometime before I conquered Germany (I think it was around turn 20, but I dont' remember exactly) the Spanish units ont he border retreated a couple of hexes. I hadn't done anything, and it had the unfortunate side effect of gaining me some of their territory, which I'm assuming is what spawns the "vow to defend the Spanish Pennisula" event. Fortunately I had the Italians pushed back into the Genes chokepoint, so between a few piecemeal units from that group and one of the Guards Tank Corps, I was able to hold my ground until Germany and Denmark fell, so I could re-direct troops over there to actually defeat Spain/Portugal.

Also, the British Invasion force never showed up when I finally took out Italy, I'm assuming this is because I had already conquered Spain, but I'm not sure if its meant to be that way.

As of now, I've just got to figure out how to deploy myself with respect to the Soviets/Turks. I lost two whole Colonial legions (and a few units from the Spanish legion) taking out the British colonies, which I'm sure is going to come back to haunt me. So for now I've got the Spanish legion (which BTW, do the Portugese ever cough up a legion?), the remaining Colonial legion, and the French 4th Army to strike into the Middle-East area. I probably should just scratch that area entirely though, because its only recently conquered and I have hadn't any chance to build up the railroads (not that I can really afford to spare a RR troop, considering I'm still trying to rebuilt Eastern Europe).

As for Europe proper I've got a Legion/Army at each road leading into the exclusion zone (with the exception of Turkey, where I've got the Croats backing up the Bulgarians and Greeks), and I've got a few turns to distribute Guards units, although they'll probably go into the Odessa approach since the Soviets have a massive stack in one of the Cities down there. Really would like to put them all into a gun for Moscow though.

The Fins survived, so hopefully they can provide some hate and discontent to the Leningrade area. Hopefully I'll get some Norwegians or Swedes soon, but they only fell recently. Damn difficult to get anything sea-borne done with the low transport capacity.

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 44
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/11/2006 1:37:25 AM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ceyan
I hadn't done anything, and it had the unfortunate side effect of gaining me some of their territory, which I'm assuming is what spawns the "vow to defend the Spanish Pennisula" event.


Kinda, are you sure you didn't push forward, the trigger was made to allow for a retreat by the Spanish, as long as the french didn't advance. One hex would make the difference depending on the position.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ceyan
Also, the British Invasion force never showed up when I finally took out Italy, I'm assuming this is because I had already conquered Spain, but I'm not sure if its meant to be that way.




quote:

ORIGINAL: ceyan
do the Portugese ever cough up a legion


You normally get something 10 turns after conquering a country, but that is not true for all countries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ceyan
Damn difficult to get anything sea-borne done with the low transport capacity.


Indeed, a situation which British naval superiority would never allow and abstracted in the game. There are of course paratroopers and HQ units which can move by air...

Sounds like you did a pretty good job of clubbing europe.

Good luck with the Russians.

Ray (alias Lava)

< Message edited by Lava -- 9/11/2006 1:50:44 AM >

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Post #: 45
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/11/2006 2:00:09 AM   
ceyan

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well, "Good Job" is subjective. I didn't outright lose anything for good, but I'm down to two fleet counters and one remaining battleship on hand. In terms of land forces, I'm probably short on something, in what I've actually kept track of, the 2nd Army has been evaporated at one point or another, as in every counter. The Dutch/Belgian legion has seen so much combat, they've gotten better proficiency than some of the Guards units. I did actually cheat once to save my two para-divisions, hated myself for it but I wasn't about two of the three (the other would be the MP Glider Tank group gained from Amsterdam) that actually allowed me to make any progress at all at some points in the game.

I have a feeling Europe would have been much more difficult if the PO hadn't dedicated so much force into blocking the two Colonial legions I dropped in Albania. Well, that and somehow, despite all odds, they actually held on long enough for my tank and motorized groups to sweep around to the capitols. All in all, with the losses I took, I wouldn't exactly call it a "win", nor worth congrats, but at least I did get that far. If I had taken a bit more care, I imagine I could have came out ahead. One problem I did so though, once you take out Germany the game becomes a matter of how long until Europe is conquered, rather than if it will happen at all (assuming you didn't take insane casualties getting the Germans out of the game). I kinda like it that way, but I thought I'd point it out in case you had planned on maintaining that feeling the entire time

On the other hand, I've only played through it twice, once I'm still in the middle of, and I'm by no means an expert on the game itself (let alone scenario). That and my current success is 99% luck.

P.S.
Speaking of fleets, I checked the Allies ship levels and OMG! Definitely weren't letting them run out of heavy fleets, huh?

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 46
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/11/2006 4:11:48 AM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline 		Hi!

Indeed, Germany is the nut to crack.

There are, however, easier ways to do it than just slugging it out with them from the get go.

BTW, on those paratroopers, you're going to need them later to win the game. Make sure you push your fighters forward to give them plenty of air support and they should make it to where you need them.

Am interested in what selections you made on research.

Ray (alias Lava)

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Post #: 47
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/11/2006 4:22:24 AM   
ceyan

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		Just cleaning out my old saves, and I found a text file from turn 80 (not sure from this game I'm currently running, or my last, since I just saved over the old names) with a listing of events that have errored out and says that Elmer tried to fix them. They're all Withdrawl events citing a specific Cadre unit. I can post it up, list the events, send the file to you, or if its meaningless and you've seen something similar before then I'll just junk it.

(in reply to ceyan)
Post #: 48
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/11/2006 5:14:36 AM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline 		Hi!

I wouldn't mind knowing the unit name and event number, especially if it repeats for other folks.

TOAW still has a problem with the withdraw army thing, and this game has a lot of withdraw army events. I can't tell you how many times I checked the events to make sure the correct unit was listed and even have.. somewhere.. (in a stack of notes piled up from creating the scenario) a listing of all withdraw unit events with their event number and unit name.

For some reason, for example, in about 1 out of 3 test plays, Belgium didn't withdraw, though the event was correctly written.

Overall, if it doesn't appear to unbalance the game, I'd say just keep going... remember during world war II, lots of folks escaped Nazi Germany and formed their own units to continue the fight, and that is kinda how I treat this situation, given it isn't a major country.

BTW, I am aware of the error file generation mechanism and while I was testing always checked to see if it occurred. To my best ability, you got the scenario as well as I could design it in that (withdraw army events) respect.

Ray (alias Lava)

< Message edited by Lava -- 9/11/2006 5:20:32 AM >

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Post #: 49
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/11/2006 6:25:23 AM   
ceyan

 

Posts: 168
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		The events and unit names are:

Event #:Unit Name
17:1175th Cadre
125:540th Cadre
126:1121st Cadre
127:437th Cadre
128:640th Cadre
144:540th Cadre
146:1121st Cadre
147:437th Cadre

I didn't have a problem with the armies not withdrawing, just lived with it for the most part, but I'm going to have to scratch this game because I had several German units just pop up in eastern Russia at the start of turn 117. I turned off the PO and played the Allied turn to see why, and it turns out they pop up as reinforcements in that hex, I'm assuming they don't pop before then due to the exclusion zone. But, I don't mind restart, I picked the Fleet option for research and I haven't found a use for the new Fleets, although the extra gunships will help out here and then for coastal battles.

Also, I played for a few dozen turns just to see what popped up later on, and I noticed I didn't recieve anything for taking out Sweden. Norway gave me a supply boost if I remember correctly, but no troops, and absolutely nothing for Sweden. Greece was the same way, I'd thought I'd gotten a Legion from them, but it turns out I was looking at the Polish legion (which I put down in Greece to advance into Turkey because I needed some extra counters but didn't want a heavy force I'd need elsewhere). Never got anything for Portugal either.

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 50
RE: "The 4th Republic" scenario inprogress - 9/11/2006 10:14:01 AM   
*Lava*


Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ceyan

The events and unit names are:

Event #:Unit Name
17:1175th Cadre
125:540th Cadre
126:1121st Cadre
127:437th Cadre
128:640th Cadre
144:540th Cadre
146:1121st Cadre
147:437th Cadre



WOW!

That's a major malfunction.

If you want, check the events by opening the scenario with the editor. The correct events/units are:

17 - BLOCKED
125 - GERMANY
126 - LUXEMBURG
127 - GIBRALTAR
128 - URSS
144 - GERMANY
146 - LUXEMBURG
147 - GIBRALTAR

BTW, I just played a bit and I also got a big error file, although the countries invovled had their armies withdrawn as it should have been. There was no effect on gameplay.

I also tried to take out Germany right from the start, and if you can do that without destroying your force.. well.. you're a better player than me.

Ray (alias Lava)

< Message edited by Lava -- 9/11/2006 2:32:28 PM >

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