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TOAW- World War Z - 9/21/2008 12:41:56 PM   
Singleton Mosby


Posts: 47
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		ATM I am reading the book World War Z. It is about a fictional war against zombies in the future. Somehow it gave me the idea to attempt to recreate the war in a TOAW scenario. But, having never made a scenario before I naturally have alot of questions.

- Is it possible to make the zombie 'units'attack ferociously regardless of the odds facing them?
- Is it possible to restrain most of them around cities (VP's perhaps) in some sort of way defending them?
- Is it possible to let them pop-up radomly , like weak guerilla units at first. One the first turn,then in everincreasing numbers until you can't hold the back and have to retreat to the rockies for a defence line?
- Is it possible to make the zombie hordes grow in strength (and size)?

This scenario will see a very high technological force, the US army, fighting ever growing waves of low-level infantry, the zombie hordes. Airforce and tanks have to be increasingly useless (if possible, otherwise with a low attack strength from the start) while motorized infantry is the thing to go duringt he first half of the scenario, converting them to non-motorized infantry later on as the gas runs out (is it possible to simmulate this?)

Is there already a 15km/hex map of the US which I can use or do I need to make it?

And, anyone interesting in joining in on this porject or even thinking it is a nice idea?

< Message edited by Singleton Mosby -- 9/21/2008 12:45:22 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 9/21/2008 1:01:31 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		I don't think this is a good idea in TOAW. For one thing, there ain't a whole lot zombies can do against a M2 Bradley.

Zombies in this situation will be totally unable to fight conventional military forces- and fighting conventional military forces is basically what TOAW is all about. So you're not on to a winner.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Singleton Mosby)
Post #: 2
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 9/21/2008 2:25:52 PM   
Singleton Mosby


Posts: 47
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

I don't think this is a good idea in TOAW. For one thing, there ain't a whole lot zombies can do against a M2 Bradley.


No indeed, they can't. But a Bradly can't do very much to them as its RKR (Resources to Kill Ratio) isn't very good. More like a safe transport then anything else. Until the fuel runs out that is.

A WWZ scenario would be more about saving what can be saved, supplies and lines of communication then static defences.

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 3
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 9/21/2008 6:53:38 PM   
desert


Posts: 827
Joined: 9/14/2006
Status: offline 		The thing about zombies is, it's very difficult to model them; like supply and outbreaks - they should technically always have 100% readiness and supply, and you can't just have units randomly popping up, unless it's programmed. How would you simulate their inability to climb mountains, or how they freeze in cold climates? Also, at the height of the Zombie War, there were 200,000,000 zombies in the US alone. There can only be 9999 of an equipment in a unit, and only 2000(?) units per side. What about the other 90% of zombies. Also, you can't have a player controlling the zombies, as their movements are random. You should see thousands of them going off to chase some squirrels!

More scenarios against:
  • A city can be held for a long time if you deposit rifle teams on the rooftops to snipe at the zombies. In-game, they would just be driven out by an attack.
  • How do you simulate legless zombies?
  • There a really just a lot of reasons why this can't work.

I read WWZ, and played around with the idea for a while, but it just can't be done in TOAW.


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

For one thing, there ain't a whole lot zombies can do against a M2 Bradley.


Imagine this: You are safely in an M2 Bradley, but all other non-armored forces have been driven off. Instead of fleeing, you try to ram the vehicle into the zombie horde. You manage to flatten dozens or even hundreds of zombies - that is, until you run out of gas, or a bone splinter renders the whole vehicle immobile. The zombies surround the vehicle, pressing on all sides, and they will not leave. They could stay that way for weeks. What then?

< Message edited by desert -- 9/21/2008 7:03:12 PM >

_____________________________

"I would rather he had given me one more division"
- Rommel, when Hitler made him a Field Marshall

(in reply to Singleton Mosby)
Post #: 4
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 9/21/2008 7:45:01 PM   
Singleton Mosby


Posts: 47
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Imagine this: You are safely in an M2 Bradley, but all other non-armored forces have been driven off. Instead of fleeing, you try to ram the vehicle into the zombie horde. You manage to flatten dozens or even hundreds of zombies - that is, until you run out of gas, or a bone splinter renders the whole vehicle immobile. The zombies surround the vehicle, pressing on all sides, and they will not leave. They could stay that way for weeks. What then?



I suppose it is impossible to make the effects of terrain be different for the US soldiers then for Zack.
Would events do the trick of withdrawing all zombie units at the start of the winter (gradually going south) and making them re-apear in spring? (But to what use).....

A I guess it was just an intersting idea but quite impossible. Would be great to play tough. Thanks for the anallysis Desert!

(in reply to desert)
Post #: 5
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/2/2008 10:01:24 AM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline 		..don't listen to the nay-sayers..

..especially not Ben, his auto-response is " impossible in toaw", he's politically very conservative so can't help it..

..i don't know the book, but yahh, i thought about zombies..

..ok, how's it spread, your zombieism, rain ? or by direct infection...?

..both use a change hex ownership type event or group of events, only the pattern differs..

..what's a zombie unit, low AT, medium low AP, low DF so it's BioEd time..

..how do they breed in combat, human military unit loss equals new, better armed, zombie unit appearing at the start site of the human unit, assuming that bodies go home to get buried, put a EvEd in to simulate learning by the normals that you burn on site, so no new zombies on unit-destroyed trigger..

..forget the tactics and look at the logistics, who cares about an M3 unit, it dies when isolated, and as our zombies flood the country, especially the major production centers....

..maybe add the odd vampire leader unit...

..best played against the zombie PO..

_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to Singleton Mosby)
Post #: 6
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/2/2008 6:32:11 PM   
meatshield

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 9/25/2008
Status: offline 		You're too late. Someone already made this scenario. It's called Iraq-Iran War :P.

(in reply to a white rabbit)
Post #: 7
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/2/2008 9:23:55 PM   
desert


Posts: 827
Joined: 9/14/2006
Status: offline 		Vampires? You wouldn't happen to be affiliated with the FVZA, would you?

_____________________________

"I would rather he had given me one more division"
- Rommel, when Hitler made him a Field Marshall

(in reply to meatshield)
Post #: 8
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/3/2008 3:49:56 AM   
Menschenfresser

 

Posts: 252
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: United States
Status: offline 		Of course it can work, if you just use the books as a starting point and stray where you need to to make it playable. It may not be what you want but I can think of a few ideas off the top of my head that would be interesting to try.

_____________________________

Make wargames, not war.

(in reply to desert)
Post #: 9
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/3/2008 3:49:59 PM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline 		..yup, even the tunnel diging bugs in Star-Ship Troopers..

..BioEd's a wonderful tool..

..and what you do is cover the bug accessible bit of the map in active and destroyed invisible rail hexes (BioEd), give the bug-player a map of existing tunnels (usable rail) , rail-repair worker bugs and off you go..

..anyway back to our zombies, are these the lurchy old type, or the new 28 days later type..?

..and the map'll have to be covered with civ units, including "dumb blonde with superb figure and skimpy clothing" so much fun with a paint program..

..i'm still idling away at the "Monster That Ate Shebogan" scen...BioEding Godzilla, mmmmm...

_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to Menschenfresser)
Post #: 10
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/3/2008 7:22:12 PM   
rhinobones

 

Posts: 1540
Joined: 2/17/2002
Status: offline 		There is another war game made by Matrix named Advanced Tactics that may be a better starting point for your scenario. Advanced Tactics has many similarities with TOAW, however, it has unit editing capabilities that above and beyond TOAW.

Regards, RhinoBones

(in reply to Singleton Mosby)
Post #: 11
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/5/2008 10:46:48 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: desert

Imagine this: You are safely in an M2 Bradley, but all other non-armored forces have been driven off. Instead of fleeing, you try to ram the vehicle into the zombie horde. You manage to flatten dozens or even hundreds of zombies - that is, until you run out of gas, or a bone splinter renders the whole vehicle immobile. The zombies surround the vehicle, pressing on all sides, and they will not leave. They could stay that way for weeks. What then?


I'd withdraw and get more ammunition, not ram anything.

Anyway, the zombies won't be surrounding the vehicle. How do they know what's inside?


_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to desert)
Post #: 12
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/5/2008 10:47:39 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..especially not Ben, his auto-response is " impossible in toaw", he's politically very conservative so can't help it..


Richard, you need to stop being such a collossal prat. As usual, you haven't thought your argument through at all, you're just taking the position which you find most personally pleasing.

Look: TOAW is about the maneouvre of forces relative to the forces of your opponent. A zombie outbreak is about developing a rational response. As soon as the armed forces have a full appreciation of what's happening, they win very rapidly. Very likely the response will involve gassing the entire zombie population as the fastest and surest way of wiping them out. None of these things are covered by TOAW.

I'm sure you could make a very interesting game on this- but TOAW is not the answer to every single simulation question. You might as well use it to simulate a football game.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 10/5/2008 10:55:39 AM >

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to a white rabbit)
Post #: 13
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/5/2008 4:36:00 PM   
desert


Posts: 827
Joined: 9/14/2006
Status: offline 		A. Zombies can't be gassed.
B. By the time there is an organized army response, there will be millions of zombies in the continent.
C. Zombies are attracted by any sound or movement. Zombies on a ship will walk overboard if they see a glint on the horizon.

_____________________________

"I would rather he had given me one more division"
- Rommel, when Hitler made him a Field Marshall

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 14
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/5/2008 7:00:21 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: desert

A. Zombies can't be gassed.


I'll betcha they can. Nerve gas works by interrupting the nervous system- and Zombies demonstrably rely on their nervous system. So nerve gas can kill or incapacitate zombies. So can neutron bombs.

quote:

B. By the time there is an organized army response, there will be millions of zombies in the continent.


THAT's the question: how far does the outbreak get before there's an organised response? This isn't a military question.

quote:

C. Zombies are attracted by any sound or movement. Zombies on a ship will walk overboard if they see a glint on the horizon.


Excellent. Forget gas- I'm sure something suitable can be designed to lure zombies to their destruction quite cheaply.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to desert)
Post #: 15
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/5/2008 8:25:19 PM   
desert


Posts: 827
Joined: 9/14/2006
Status: offline 		Well, zombies can still survive underwater, apparently because all their bodily fluids have congealed or something like that.

And zombies, at least Brooks zombies, cannot be gassed. Go here for more info: http://www.scribd.com/doc/2516106/The-Zombie-Survival-Guide-by-Max-Brooks
or here if that fails: http://www.scribd.com/doc/2526658/Zombie-Survival-Guide-by-Max-Brooks

Look, there are all sorts of zombies, ie. fast ones, Romero zombies, invincible sentient ones, etc.
The zombies you picture in your mind, however, are a fairly different breed from the Brooks zombies. I'm just describing what applies to that specific type of zombie.

Edit: Here's a good example from WWZ.

The Ukraine govt. had a tank unit process refugees crossing a bridge at some important city(help me out with the name here, Mosby). The point was not to process the refugees, but to concentrate them in one area. The Ukranian air force then bombed the bridge with VX gas, and, as the tankmen watched from inside their vehicles, those who had been infected began to reanimate(about 1 in 20).

< Message edited by desert -- 10/5/2008 8:30:38 PM >

_____________________________

"I would rather he had given me one more division"
- Rommel, when Hitler made him a Field Marshall

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 16
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/6/2008 9:26:51 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: desert

Well, zombies can still survive underwater, apparently because all their bodily fluids have congealed or something like that.

And zombies, at least Brooks zombies, cannot be gassed.


I'd say depends on the gas (couldn't get your linked pages to work). Chlorine would presumably blind them, as they do appear to still see in the normal way. And as I've said, nerve gas would still paralyse and eventually kill, as they obviously have nerves.

Really it's all a little academic. Since they're fictional, they have whatever capabilities you like. Unless they deploy and fight as a conventional military force, TOAW's not your best choice for simulating them.

quote:

The Ukraine govt. had a tank unit process refugees crossing a bridge at some important city(help me out with the name here, Mosby). The point was not to process the refugees, but to concentrate them in one area. The Ukranian air force then bombed the bridge with VX gas, and, as the tankmen watched from inside their vehicles, those who had been infected began to reanimate(about 1 in 20).


If they're concentrated then you can just use napalm. Cheaper than nerve agents.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to desert)
Post #: 17
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/6/2008 11:29:24 PM   
desert


Posts: 827
Joined: 9/14/2006
Status: offline 		Napalm could be used to combat zombies. VX...no. It's not like the expense would matter at the moment anyway.

Here's a working link. I suggest reading the first chapter, or at least until p.18. http://www.scribd.com/doc/262381/The-Zombie-Survival-Guide

Edit: Whether we disagree on the functions and abilities of zombies is irrelevant to the topic, ok? We can discuss it through PMs if you want.

< Message edited by desert -- 10/7/2008 12:30:40 AM >

_____________________________

"I would rather he had given me one more division"
- Rommel, when Hitler made him a Field Marshall

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 18
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/7/2008 2:37:14 PM   
Widell


Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollhättan, Sweden
Status: offline 		On the other hand, the whole thread is rather amusing, so you may want to keep going here 

_____________________________


(in reply to desert)
Post #: 19
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/7/2008 8:33:21 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: desert

Napalm could be used to combat zombies. VX...no. It's not like the expense would matter at the moment anyway.


Well I mean in terms of effort. You need large specialised facilities of trained people to make nerve gas, and careful precautions for transport and deployment. Not so napalm.

quote:

Edit: Whether we disagree on the functions and abilities of zombies is irrelevant to the topic, ok? We can discuss it through PMs if you want.


How's it irrelevant? This thread is about simulating zombies. Would you argue that a discussion of the capabilities of the Pz-III was irrelevant to a thread about Crusader?

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to desert)
Post #: 20
RE: TOAW- World War Z - 10/7/2008 9:18:20 PM   
desert


Posts: 827
Joined: 9/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

How's it irrelevant? This thread is about simulating zombies. Would you argue that a discussion of the capabilities of the Pz-III was irrelevant to a thread about Crusader?


In other words, you want to keep arguing about it. Ok; have you checked out that link yet?

_____________________________

"I would rather he had given me one more division"
- Rommel, when Hitler made him a Field Marshall

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 21
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