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RE: Artillery Poll - 12/4/2008 12:50:24 AM

sPzAbt653

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That's a maximum of 3 rounds per battle, not 3 rounds per turn. So no restrictions, whale away and get 8 rounds per turn if you can!

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Post #: 61

RE: Artillery Poll - 12/4/2008 2:29:22 AM

Rekm41

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Right I misread that. Thats for clarifying it. Must be getting old

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Post #: 62

RE: Directive 21 - 12/6/2008 5:31:05 PM

sPzAbt653

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Turns 21-32. My plan to get close to a line Moscow-Rostov by this point has failed, in most part because I did so poorly in the south, I think. It shouldn't take this long to get where I am, and I think I can blame it on my mistakes with a couple of Panzer Korps. My first regret was the bright idea to take a panzer korps from AGC and move it south of the Pripyet marshes in order to reach Kiev quickly. The terrain in the center is difficult and AGC has enough mobile formations anyway. This idea did work, but once at Kiev, there was nothing for this valuable formation of two panzer divisions and one motorized division to do except threaten Kiev from the west while trying to protect two extended open flanks. Then to compound the problem, I took another Panzer Korps from AGC, one that was making good progress towards its' objective of Bryansk, and diverting them south to come in behind Kiev. I'll make a separate post about this next.

The loss penalty so far is 393/10, with a ratio of German Heavy Rifle Squad losses to Soviet Rifle Squad losses ranging from 9.8-1 to 10.7-1. The Soviet side ran out of 'on hand' rifle squads at turn 23 and has been dealing with '0' since. I didn't take the time to count aircraft losses, it doesn't seem important at this point. I've tried several different tactics (ground attacks on bridges and ground units, airfield attacks when I can get in range of one) but nothing gets better results than the standard 60-70 Axis losses compared to the Soviets 300-500 losses per turn. It seems best to just make sure that I have as many aircraft forward as possible, so that when I am moving and executing combats, Elmer will have some resistance to his interdiction and combat support missions.

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Post #: 63

RE: Directive 21 - 12/6/2008 5:50:29 PM

sPzAbt653

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This shot shows the Panzer Korps that I moved away from AGC in order to get behind Kiev. Two panzer divisions, a motorized division and the kavalry division ended up holding an area of no importance. What was I thinking. Without infantry following up, there is nothing that can be done. It would have been much better to use the two infantry divisions available in holding a bridgehead at Chernigov, while the panzer korps went on to take Bryansk.
My solution to the whole mess was to free up the panzers west of Kiev by putting Italian and Hungarian formations in their place, and shifting that panzer korps south, with another panzer korps coming from the Vinnitsa area, to find a place to cross the Dniepr. This worked, they crossed the river, moved north, and hooked up with the Chernigov panzer korps. Kiev is surrounded, as is Odessa, and now the mud is here. Now Elmer gets eight turns free from casualties to rebuild his lines. I need to get ready to do something by turn 48 when he gets double replacements. After the mud I'll have ten turns, I'm thirty hexes from Moscow, sixty hexes from Rostov. I need to have some beers and shots to devise a plan, spend the mud turns getting ready, and then put Guderian in charge.

Cheers!

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Post #: 64

RE: Directive 21 - 12/7/2008 2:43:24 AM

larryfulkerson

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Good job dude. Keep up the good work. I especially like the progress in the deep south.

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Post #: 65

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/7/2008 3:25:30 PM

Karri

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Oooo.

Where can I get the latest version?

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Post #: 66

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/7/2008 4:38:29 PM

sPzAbt653

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There is no way that I am going to allow Elmer to be subjected to the FitEMasters' wrath!

Just kidding, send me your e-mail address and I'll forward it to you.

Now I regret having not added the 'Beginner', 'Novice' and 'Advanced' player options.

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Post #: 67

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/7/2008 5:17:53 PM

Silvanski

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A question for all playstesters.. On average, how long does it take for Elmer to complete his turn? I know it'll depend a lot on your hardware but it's gonna take him more effort when more Soviet units apppear in play.

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Post #: 68

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/7/2008 5:56:21 PM

sPzAbt653

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10 minutes on my old Win98 machine, which is what I mostly use for playing (Caps Locks off, as I am trying to see what he is doing). However, it seems like about every 10-15 turns Elmer gets snagged on one unit and does nothing for a long time, making his turn last 30-40 minutes. Also, if a number of units are surrounded, he takes longer. I expect that as he is trying to figure out what to do. Currently I am playing thru the first mud period, turns 32-39, and he has taken 20-30 minutes for each of these turns. I am only guessing, but maybe Elmer doesn't have any specific protocol for cease fire turns, as it appears he is trying to act as if it were business as usual. With no active zones of control, he shuttles back and forth, back and forth, where during a normal turn he would get whacked by a disengagement attack that stops him doing that.

Overall, except for the unit snags, it's been quite acceptable. I get some time to think, or do laundry.

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Post #: 69

RE: Directive 21 play testers thread - 12/7/2008 8:25:17 PM

cesteman

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10 minutes average for me. I am only at turn 7 on the update I just loaded. something very annoying, but I'll have to post a screen shot and let you see. Two Russian units showed up where they couldn't get unless they had an engineer unit with them and I haven't seen/destroyed one yet. I control most of the front, but there is a small gap for elmer to slip into, so he must have done it 2-3 turns prior, as I've been slow to move in this area trying to clear out some pesky units. I'll post later so everyone can see.

EDIT: I will have to post the pesky problem tomorrow.

< Message edited by cesteman -- 12/8/2008 4:13:06 AM >

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Post #: 70

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/7/2008 9:38:53 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski
...how long does it take for Elmer to complete his turn?

I can set the Soviet play option, go get a cup of coffee and when I get back the Soviet side is done. Maybe 2-3 minutes tops. But then again, my machine has 2 CPU's in it and I'm running Windows XP PRO and I don't have a multitude of other windows open either.

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Post #: 71

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/7/2008 10:44:25 PM

Zorchi

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On that, may i ask if anybody knows if TOAW3 can handle more than two cores PC. Namely with the new Core Q7 cpu that can handle 8 threads, would the game be able to make benefit of all 8 logical cores (on win XP)? Just wondering, since most (if not all) games are made for most 2 cores/threads currently...

< Message edited by Zorchi -- 12/7/2008 10:47:28 PM >

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Post #: 72

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/8/2008 4:47:44 AM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorchi
...may i ask if anybody knows if TOAW3 can handle more than two cores PC.

Back when I was a playtester for TOAW3 I remember Ralph having TOAW3 check the machine for more than one core. I don't know what he did ( does ) with the information though.

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Post #: 73

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/8/2008 5:09:37 AM

ralphtricky

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Nothing right now. It runs the sound on the other core (big whoop.)

The new algorithms are also fast enought that it's going to be difficult to put onto multiple cores. There's a cost to switching between cores.

You DO know that you can hold the shift key, put the caps lock key on or minimize the applicaiton, and it goes a lot faster, right?

Ralph

< Message edited by ralphtrick -- 12/8/2008 5:11:06 AM >

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Post #: 74

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/8/2008 11:10:30 AM

Zorchi

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Yea i knew about shift/caps but not about minimizing.

Thx for the info.

< Message edited by Zorchi -- 12/8/2008 5:34:05 PM >

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Post #: 75

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/8/2008 7:46:38 PM

ralphtricky

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorchi

Yea i knew about shift/caps but not about minimizing.

Thx for the info.

Minimizing probably helps a little bit more than the caps lock.

One nice thing about only running on one CPU is that a designer could actualy run one copy of TOAW per CPU in POvPO play to balance the PO.

Ralph

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Post #: 76

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/10/2008 7:54:38 PM

sPzAbt653

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In response to posts #303-305 in Mr. Fulkerson's Directive 21 AAR, I thought I would post some strategy on supply issues. Because of the scope and scale of the scenario, there are different things to be done depending on the situation, but I'll post a screen shot and explanation for one. Note that this does not specifically apply to those that take the all out, Guderian-Hoth type approach to advance. And I know that to some this is common knowledge, but it may help some others.

At start the Axis get full supply within 6 hexes of an intact rail line. That drops to 4 and sometimes 2 later in the scenario. This is important because once you get beyond that range, you have t pay attention to what you are doing. Moving thru 'unconverted' or 'unconquered' territory will cost your units twice the readiness and supply as moving thru 'conquered/converted' territory. In the screenshot you can see that the 3rd Motorized and 1st Panzer divisions advanced along the blue lines, at that point out in front, in order to convert the road hexes and take up blocking positions. The infantry following up along the green line now only pays 1 mp for each road hex it enters, greatly reducing the drain on supply and readiness. The lead infantry division (in the green circle) has just dropped out of the bright green, and there I stop it (even though it could move farther). As you are going thru a turn you will get the idea of how far a unit can move before it goes beyond the point where it can recover adequately for the next turn. The infantry in the yellow circle moved farther in order to block the Soviets from crossing the Luga River and interfering with me there. This was more important than conservation, as that Luga Line is where I plan to stop for awhile, and I don't want to spend time securing it. Dropping the 7th FJ and some Brandenburg units helps to secure this area. Now you can see how over the next two turns I will have strong infantry units moving into the positions of the 3rd Mot and 1st Pz. Once the infantry makes short work of the unit surrounded by the 3rd Mot, that division will be free to move unimpeded by enemy zoc along a 'cleared' road to the southeast to assist the 1st Pz in repeating the process.
In addition to these points, it is also important that not moving at all for the turn greatly increases a units recovery. If a unit goes into the yellow, I typically let him sit there for the turn. And it is also important to make good use of the supply units. These give a 150% supply boost to units they are next to, and raise the supply level to units within the supply radius (of the supply unit). There are only 3 of these units at start, but you get 6 more at turn 22.

Hope this is a help to some. Cheers!

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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/10/2008 8:00:01 PM

sPzAbt653

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Some have asked how to tell what the supply radius is. Check the unit report of any of the supply units.

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Post #: 78

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/11/2008 7:31:38 AM

cesteman

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Thanks for the info buddy! It's always great to see stuff like this as I HATE reading the darn manual. Cheers!

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Post #: 79

Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/12/2008 6:31:25 AM

larryfulkerson

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Hey you guys........I've found evidence that the rail road repair guys in Directive 21 need some engineer / ferry dudes.......to be able to ford rivers to repair rail line(s). Here's an example where the rr dude usually repairs bou cou rail hexes but for two turns now he hasn't gotten off the train. ------------>

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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/12/2008 9:33:36 AM

sPzAbt653

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Same experience I had! At the same hex! I moved an engineer unit there promptly, then I realised the same thing you said. But there is the same situation at other locations, and I didn't notice that happening. So I determined it must have been a timing fluke. Now I'm not sure, so I'll run some tests to find out. Thanks!

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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/12/2008 9:58:26 AM

Karri

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Given that the AI doesn't seem to destory bridges, there's plenty of engineers to go around...

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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/12/2008 4:32:46 PM

cesteman

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Here's a question, because that's only a RR bridge not a regular bridge could you move an engineer unit there and then move the RR unit to repair the hex? Just a thought. Cheers.

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Post #: 83

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/12/2008 4:57:38 PM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

...because that's only a RR bridge not a regular bridge could you move an engineer unit there and then move the RR unit to repair the hex?

Yes, you've got the idea. I ran a test and the bautrupps won't do it on their own, they need an engineer (with 'major ferry' capacity) to assist. As Karri pointed out, there are plenty of engineer units, so I don't think we have to add them to the bautrupps. I only see a few spots where this will be the case, so I shouldn't think it would be a major source of aggravation to players. Just move an engineer onto the river, and the nearby bautrupp will repair it.

And if for some reason you are short on engineer units, most of them can be broken down to 2 or 3 units and still have the required 10% Major Ferry capacity to do the job.

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Post #: 84

RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/14/2008 1:13:57 AM

sPzAbt653

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Turns 42-50. I wasn't free from the mud until turn 42, and I took the Typhoon Theater Option. Not because I wanted to, but because this is playtesting, and I want to make sure it fires properly. So I get 6 turns of 140 shock (which ended on turn 50) that I will spend setting the best defense that I can to protect myself during the 8 turns of 80 shock to follow. For those that don't follow shock settings, anything over 100 is positive (good), anything under 100 is negative (bad). I think that the idea behind the Typhoon option is to take a final stab at the Soviets and to deal a crippling blow so that the 80 shock period won't hurt too much, but I'm too conservative for that (in this game).
Since my initial plan was to hold 16 production cities at this point, and I have only 6, I've done quite poorly. On the other hand, I have an intact force all along the front, and I have over 16,000 heavy rifle squads on hand. Even with the Soviet doubling of production on turn 48, I am still causing Elmer more casualties than he can replace. So for now I will hold the line during the negative shock, while trying to get ready for the final push on Moscow.
The loss penalty so far is 468/8, with a ratio of German Heavy Rifle Squad losses to Soviet Rifle Squad losses still around 10-1.

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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/14/2008 1:23:23 AM

sPzAbt653

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One thing I wanted to do during Typhoon was to close up on the river that runs southwest from Bryansk (at the right in the screenshot). But I wasn't strong enough there to do anything. So over the last two turns I scraped up some units, found some weak spots, and made a mess of things in the area. As Elmer only has a few supply routes across that major river, I thought it was worth a try. If he is stronger than he looks, and if the 80 shock hits me hard, I'll be in a pinch. But if it works out, I'll have a nice river line of defense.

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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/20/2008 8:48:36 AM

sPzAbt653

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Turns 50-61. With that small pocket cleared I had a pretty good defensive position so I could concentrate on moving all Panzer and Motorized divisions to the Moscow area. With the eleven turns of 80% shock I had to endure, it wasn't easy. By the time the bad shock was over I was only about half done the concentration of forces. The plan was to organise five lanes of attack on a thirty hex front, right in front of Moscow. With the planned number of mobile divisions available, any weakness could be quickly exploited. Hopefully the Soviet defense in front of Moscow can be encircled and eliminated while strong mobile forces move off north and south of the city to surround it from behind. This would eliminate the necessity of butting heads against the strong Soviet defense arranged on the western fringes of the city.

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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/20/2008 9:03:09 AM

sPzAbt653

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Turns 61-72. The rough terrain in the Moscow area and the current cold weather (it's February '42 with snow) make a rapid advance very difficult. But the overwhelming number of mobile divisions worked well and some 45 Soviet divisions were encircled and destroyed. It would have been a little easier if I had more infantry divisions available, but they are busy holding the lines elsewhere. Moscow isn't encircled yet, but I think Elmer will not be able to prevent it after losing those 45 divisions. Just north of Moscow the panzers have crossed the Moscow Canal, and to the south they have arrived at some place called Serpukhov, which is just south of some place called Podolsk. Tula and Orel are temptingly close, but I don't want to stray from the goal.

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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/25/2008 8:40:09 PM

sPzAbt653

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After the panzers broke thru to the north and south of Moscow, a few divisions were able to concentrate on the softer backside of the Moscow defenses and push thru to the Kremlin. Holding the central Moscow hex is important as the Soviets will lose 20% of their production and half of their rail capacity. The six surrounding urban Moscow hexes are important as many Soviet reinforcements are scheduled to arrive there, and while under Axis control they will not appear. If the Soviets retake Moscow, they regain 15% of their production, all of their rail capacity, and the reinforcements will be able to arrive.

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RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/26/2008 12:51:41 AM

larryfulkerson

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Good job Steve, on your progress. So um.......quick question: not that I'm complaining or anything but has anyone else noticed that Elmer likes to cluster his units? Here's an example up in Finland: