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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 5:46:32 PM   
USSAmerica


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Post #: 9061
THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 5:53:11 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

He does come across as a Luftwaffe fanboy (which I am not), I will give you that. But his evidence and conclusions are none the worse for it.


I was talking to JoeW about him the other night. He regards him very highly. So we are a threesome.


Well, hooray for you...

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Post #: 9062
LOG! - 12/3/2009 5:55:23 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


Well, hooray for you...


actually...hooray for you that Joe doesn't tend to comment on the Thread.


< Message edited by Nikademus -- 12/3/2009 5:56:27 PM >

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Post #: 9063
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 5:59:38 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I don't care.

You told me I couldn't comment on the book until I read it, I read it and found it bad, and now you're listing all the people who agree with your view, as if that makes my view invalid. That's weak, LogBoy.

It's a badly-written, poorly-argued book.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 12/3/2009 6:00:22 PM >

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Post #: 9064
LOG! - 12/3/2009 6:10:52 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I don't care.

You told me I couldn't comment on the book until I read it, I read it and found it bad, and now you're listing all the people who agree with your view, as if that makes my view invalid. That's weak, LogBoy.

It's a badly-written, poorly-argued book.


and your welcome to your opinion. I was meerly replying to Omine regarding an author i happen to find very knowlegable and good and thats MY opinion and right to do so. Since you can't take a little return teasing this morning, i'll add that "weak" is declaring a book poorly written and argued and not backing it up with any facts or specifics.


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Post #: 9065
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 6:48:12 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Well, let's see then.

In several places, he uses the phrase "there's no proof" as the sole argument for his standpoint (that's not enough), he points out in one place that a German air officer was "the best suited to comment on air theory in Germany", apparently because he had a degree in economics, and near the end, he opines that the Luftwaffe's biggest problem before engaging in the Battle of Britain was the failure to develop an effective naval air arm.

Then there's the Guernica paragraph, where Richthofen is "exonerated" for the attack on the town because he apparently exhibited only "a tourist's" knowledge about it. I accept that Guernica was not the massacre that Republican propaganda made it (and I always have), but the author's point in Richthofen's defence is VERY weak.

I'm just glad I didn't pay very much for the book.


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Post #: 9066
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 7:26:43 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

In several places, he uses the phrase "there's no proof" as the sole argument for his standpoint (that's not enough),


Where? what issue? what was the argument?

quote:


he points out in one place that a German air officer was "the best suited to comment on air theory in Germany", apparently because he had a degree in economics, and near the end, he opines that the Luftwaffe's biggest problem before engaging in the Battle of Britain was the failure to develop an effective naval air arm.


Which......means what? Corum also wrote that the naval air arm was heavily controlled by the Reichsmarine which caused friction with the regular air force.


quote:


Then there's the Guernica paragraph, where Richthofen is "exonerated" for the attack on the town because he apparently exhibited only "a tourist's" knowledge about it. .


Huh? This makes no sense, and i have the book in front of me. I was waiting for you to mention Guernica however. I get the impression that you consider the book an apologist view of actions that were taken against various Allied cities based on some questions you threw at me prior to owning the book. It is no more apologetic than Miller's book on the 8th AF or Neillands book on BC. That he argues that the Guernica mission was part of established Luftwaffe doctrine is well made and doesn't make him automatically an apologist....though if you'll remember i did say that the specific subject of the town's bombing remains "arguable" in the same way that Dresden remains arguable. Neillands made a good case for BC and the 8th AF in bombing Dresden but also gave the other side an airing out and there are various other books out on Dresden that focus on it hence Dresden remains an "arguable" subject.

Corum's book is on the origin and development of the Luftwaffe and how it's doctrine and training was put to use....not to argue points after 1939. So far you've offered nothing that indicates that his work was poorly done or researched.



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Post #: 9067
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 7:32:01 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		"Not to argue points after 1939"? Shouldn't he have stopped writing about 4/5ths in then?

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Post #: 9068
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 7:34:16 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Your use of the word "apologist" is partly correct, though not the sum total of my problems with Corum's book. He's simply too much of a Luftwaffe fanboy for my taste.

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 9069
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 7:59:12 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

"Not to argue points after 1939"? Shouldn't he have stopped writing about 4/5ths in then?


huh?

The book is about the creation and development of the Luftwaffe....not a battle history. Corum includes the Spanish Civil war because it allowed the Germans to test and refine their doctrine in a lab so to speak...a real war, only one they were not officially or directly involved in. He includes the intial campaign against Poland at the book's end in order to provide examples of the Luftwaffe in action in relation to it's development. The book is not a battle history of the Luftwaffe.



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Post #: 9070
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 7:59:49 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Your use of the word "apologist" is partly correct, though not the sum total of my problems with Corum's book. He's simply too much of a Luftwaffe fanboy for my taste.


whatever.

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Post #: 9071
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 8:51:20 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
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From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

"Not to argue points after 1939"? Shouldn't he have stopped writing about 4/5ths in then?


huh?

The book is about the creation and development of the Luftwaffe....not a battle history. Corum includes the Spanish Civil war because it allowed the Germans to test and refine their doctrine in a lab so to speak...a real war, only one they were not officially or directly involved in. He includes the intial campaign against Poland at the book's end in order to provide examples of the Luftwaffe in action in relation to it's development. The book is not a battle history of the Luftwaffe.




Are you telling me that there's nothing about the French campaign? There is in my copy.

Anyway, the LW's main problem before going to battle against Britain was not a lack of a naval air arm. It was victory disease and lack of replacement aircraft.

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Post #: 9072
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 8:52:17 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Your use of the word "apologist" is partly correct, though not the sum total of my problems with Corum's book. He's simply too much of a Luftwaffe fanboy for my taste.


whatever.


Succinct. Look Nik, you (and Onime and Joe, along with several others, I guess) like the book. I don't. Let's leave it there.

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Post #: 9073
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:01:32 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Are you telling me that there's nothing about the French campaign? There is in my copy.


I'm telling you the book is not a battle history of the Luftwaffe. its a book devoted to the creation and development of an air force. Yes. France is mentioned, as is the Battle of Britian......in the last 16 pages of the book in a chapter titled "Conclusion".

quote:


Anyway, the LW's main problem before going to battle against Britain was not a lack of a naval air arm. It was victory disease and lack of replacement aircraft.


I don't recall myself or Corum claiming that the Luftwaffe was perfect. In fact he states in writing that the Luftwaffe was not prepared for the war it was presented with.

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Post #: 9074
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:05:46 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Succinct. Look Nik, you (and Onime and Joe, along with several others, I guess) like the book. I don't. Let's leave it there.


I'm fine with that.

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Post #: 9075
LOG! - 12/3/2009 9:08:21 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		SLR!

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Post #: 9076
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:29:52 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		SLR and....

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Post #: 9077
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:30:07 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Awww, c'mon...

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Post #: 9078
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:30:18 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Wait for it....







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Post #: 9079
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:30:36 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Now...

Now...


Now...

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Post #: 9080
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:30:51 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		New page?

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Post #: 9081
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:31:03 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Nope. That wasn't it. This one?

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Post #: 9082
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:32:44 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I've recently been studying the Battle of Dogger Bank. It's an interesting little microcosm of WWI naval combat.

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Post #: 9083
RE: LOG! - 12/3/2009 9:38:03 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
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From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

So, a winning streak of 1 game.


That's about it for the calibre of american football in the state of Washington these days....

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fair winds,
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Post #: 9084
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:39:12 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		ZOING!(TM)

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Post #: 9085
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:39:25 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		-25...

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Post #: 9086
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:39:47 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Good grief, I might actually make it before the 7th...

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Post #: 9087
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:40:02 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Second ZOING!(TM)

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Post #: 9088
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:45:05 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
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From: Olympia, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Good grief, I might actually make it before the 7th...


The rest of us had no doubts, Spammeister.

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fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 9089
RE: THE THREAD!!! - 12/3/2009 9:49:15 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Well, I never...

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Post #: 9090
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