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RE: US entry question - 7/31/2009 3:40:11 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99
Extraneous: You are correct in that a neutral Netherlands must halt shipping oil to Japan.

I don't understand this Christopher.

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 31

RE: US entry question - 7/31/2009 4:37:04 PM

obermeister

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I think the core issue we are having here is does who controls NEI have any bearing on the US oil embargo. Obviously if Japan controls NEI then they can use its oil. If Germany or Vichy France controls NEI, are they prevented by a US oil embargo from shipping the NEI oil to Japan?

On the other side of the equation, is a Commonwealth controlled NEI obligated to continue trading NEI oil to Japan before they come to war. What about after that?

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 32

RE: US entry question - 7/31/2009 5:57:38 PM

lavisj

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Well, as far as I understand the rules a trade agreement can only be dissolived when the condition to dissolve it is met. Those are either:
1. Explicited in the minor country section
2. When war happens between the two powers
3. When US entry change the trade agreement.

What is common sens is that if an allied power controls the NEI, the trade agreement remains in place until oil embargo is taken, in the same way that Russia can not change its trade agreement with Germany until the conditions to break the pact are met.
As far as when an axis power controls the NEI (I have yet to see it... the most likely candidate is probably Vichy France), then I would think the trade agreement remains in place and is still bound by the oil embargo option.

The alternative is actually quite game unbalancing in my opinion. If a Vichy controlled NEI would stop giving its ressources to Japan, then the allies should always align Netherland to France as there are then 2 options: Most likely NEI becomes Vichy and Japan looses 2 oils/turn (huge), or it goes Free France and Japan has to DoW FF to get to the oil after the embargo (makes the US player happy).

On a WIfzen, it is not difficult to imagine that Vhichy administration would continue to honor a previous agreement between the Netherland and Japan, as it is not difficult to imagine that a neutral United States could still pressure Vichy into stoping to give its oil to Japan.

Now another interestin question. If NEI is aligned to Vichy, does the NEI still supply the CW with its 2 remaining oil as long as Vichy is neutral?

Just my 2 cents.

Jerome

< Message edited by lavisj -- 7/31/2009 6:05:22 PM >

(in reply to obermeister)

Post #: 33

RE: US entry question - 7/31/2009 8:04:05 PM

sajbalk

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The rules are helpful here. Under 5.1, "[Trade agreements] continue until either country is completely conquered or as specifed below."

"Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the CW, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan. A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil."

Conspicuous by its absence is a requirement for neutrality for the Japanese agreement.

If Netherlands is aligned to France, it may become Vichy. If Vichy, it will be neutral and give 2 resources per turn to Japan or active and give all its resources per turn to Japan. If Free, Japan will have to DOW ASAP before the oil embargo.

_____________________________

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Iowa, USA

(in reply to lavisj)

Post #: 34

RE: US entry question - 7/31/2009 8:39:08 PM

Extraneous

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What composer99 is saying is the trade agreement is with the Netherlands not the NEI.

But all Netherlands oil is in the NEI.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

Netherlands

The Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the Commonwealth, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan (see 13.3.2, entry option 31).

A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

However, if the Netherlands is aligned to France upon German declaration of war and the NEI are subsequently turned Vichy there are three things to consider:

France cannot align the Netherlands.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

If a neutral minor can align with your major power (see 19.6, 19.7 and 19.8), you can declare that it is aligning with you. You can only declare one minor aligned with your major power in each friendly impulse. Your major power controls a minor that aligns with it exactly as if another major power had declared war on it.

This is why which minor countries are aligned and which are controlled is important. �

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

Example: Germany is conquered while Germany still controls a conquered Norway. Because Germany controls no aligned home countries, Germany has been completely conquered. All German land and aircraft units are removed from the game. Norway reverts to neutrality because no major power has any influence there. All German naval units become controlled by Japan. You dice for any that are now in Allied controlled hexes. Any that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will be destroyed.

France assumed control of the Netherlands when Germany DOWed the Netherlands.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

You now allocate control of minor countries declared war on this step, to a major power on the other side (see 19.2), in order of declaration. The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it.

Whoever takes control of the minor sets up its forces immediately (see 19.4).

Axis minor countries that can be aligned: Argentina, Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary, Rumania, Persia and Iraq, Siam, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, and Yugoslavia.

Allied minor countries that can be aligned: Brazil, Bulgaria, Central America, Mexico, Mongolia, and Yugoslavia.

< Message edited by Extraneous -- 7/31/2009 8:51:50 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: US entry question - 7/31/2009 9:04:46 PM

obermeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

The rules are helpful here. Under 5.1, "[Trade agreements] continue until either country is completely conquered or as specifed below."

"Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the CW, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan. A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil."

Conspicuous by its absence is a requirement for neutrality for the Japanese agreement.

If Netherlands is aligned to France, it may become Vichy. If Vichy, it will be neutral and give 2 resources per turn to Japan or active and give all its resources per turn to Japan. If Free, Japan will have to DOW ASAP before the oil embargo.

Based solely on 5.1, I don't understand why an active-Vichy controlled NEI would give all resources to Japan. The only things mentioned in there are 1. Japan at war with either Netherlands or CW, and 2. US oil embargo.

And as long as CW doesn't declare war on Vichy, a Vichy controlled NEI would still supply the remaining oil to CW, based solely on 5.1. If CW declares war on Vichy, then CW wouldn't get the oil, but I don't see how that would lead to the Japanese getting all the oil in the NEI.

(in reply to sajbalk)

Post #: 36

RE: US entry question - 7/31/2009 9:13:19 PM

obermeister

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quote:

France cannot align the Netherlands.

You are correct, the distinction is important. I hadn't thought about that before. I may have been careless in using "controls" as a synonym for "aligned with". However, I'm not sure if the distinction is relevant to our discussion of who can use the NEI oil and how relevant the control of NEI is to who gets the oil or is subject to the oil embargo.

(in reply to Extraneous)

Post #: 37

RE: US entry question - 7/31/2009 11:20:56 PM

sajbalk

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Extraneous, you are correct. However, you will see many posters, including myself, fail to make the distinction between aligning and assuming control.

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Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to Extraneous)

Post #: 38

RE: US entry question - 7/31/2009 11:26:58 PM

sajbalk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

The rules are helpful here. Under 5.1, "[Trade agreements] continue until either country is completely conquered or as specifed below."

"Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the CW, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan. A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil."

Conspicuous by its absence is a requirement for neutrality for the Japanese agreement.

If Netherlands is aligned to France, it may become Vichy. If Vichy, it will be neutral and give 2 resources per turn to Japan or active and give all its resources per turn to Japan. If Free, Japan will have to DOW ASAP before the oil embargo.

Based solely on 5.1, I don't understand why an active-Vichy controlled NEI would give all resources to Japan. The only things mentioned in there are 1. Japan at war with either Netherlands or CW, and 2. US oil embargo.

And as long as CW doesn't declare war on Vichy, a Vichy controlled NEI would still supply the remaining oil to CW, based solely on 5.1. If CW declares war on Vichy, then CW wouldn't get the oil, but I don't see how that would lead to the Japanese getting all the oil in the NEI.

Under 17.4, Vichy France would give its NEI resources to Japan only if active and hostile. However, 5.1 provides for the NEI oil to the CW while the Netherlands is neutral.

Thus:
At start: 2 oil to CW, 2 oil to Japan.
GER DOW Neth, France controls Neth: 2 oil to France, 2 oil to Japan.
GER conquers Neth: no change
GER Vichies France, and NEI goes Vichy: 2 oil to Japan, 2 oil to CW
US does oil embargo: 2 oil to CW
CW DOW Vichy: 0 oil to anyone
CW makes Vichy hostile: Vichy may give resources to any axis power.

I still do not like how this turns out; seems like a good way to screw Japan. Rules should say that oil embargo does not apply IF NEI is Vichy.

_____________________________

Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to obermeister)

Post #: 39

RE: US entry question - 8/1/2009 12:00:56 AM

Extraneous

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

Thus:
At start: 2 oil to CW, 2 oil to Japan.
GER DOW Neth, France controls Neth: 2 oil to France, 2 oil to Japan.
GER conquers Neth: no change
GER Vichies France, and NEI goes Vichy: 2 oil to Japan, 2 oil to CW
US does oil embargo: 2 oil to CW
CW DOW Vichy: 0 oil to anyone
CW makes Vichy hostile: Vichy may give resources to any axis power.

I still do not like how this turns out; seems like a good way to screw Japan. Rules should say that oil embargo does not apply IF NEI is Vichy.

Shouldn't it be...

At start: 2 oil to CW, 2 oil to Japan.
GER DOW Neth, France controls Neth: 2 oil to France, 2 oil to Japan.
GER conquers Neth: no change
GER Vichies France, and theNetherlands and NEI go Vichy: 2 oil to Japan, 2 oil to CW
US does oil embargo: 4 oil to CW
CW DOW Vichy: 0 oil to anyone
CW makes Vichy hostile: Vichy may give resources to any axis power.

Because: A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil.

< Message edited by Extraneous -- 8/1/2009 12:13:10 AM >

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Post #: 40

RE: US entry question - 8/1/2009 12:27:57 AM

praem

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NEI is not neutral if its Vichy - it is Vichy controlled, and Vichy may be neutral - thus Vichy and not CW would get the 2 remaining oil. IF Vichy is hostile (unlikely) & active, then Vichy may lend all or some recources, including the 2 remainging oil to any major poer on the Axis.
So the list shoudl be:

At start: 2 oil to CW, 2 oil to Japan.
GER DOW Neth, France controls Neth: 2 oil to France, 2 oil to Japan.
GER conquers Neth: no change
GER Vichies France, and theNetherlands and NEI go Vichy: 2 oil to Japan, 2 oil to Vichy France
US does oil embargo: 4 oil to Vichy
CW DOW Vichy: no change
CW makes Vichy hostile: Vichy may give resources to any axis power.

(in reply to Extraneous)

Post #: 41

RE: US entry question - 8/1/2009 2:14:26 AM

Taxman66

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You know, for MWiF maybe it would be easier (though not 'perfect') just to force the Netherlands to CW.

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Post #: 42

RE: US entry question - 8/1/2009 2:35:20 AM

brian brian

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Vichy may not declare war on anyone unless it is hostile, and it does start out neutral. When Vichy is neutral, the NEI would be neutral, and the CW would get the oil from a Vichy NEI. So any change to that would be an Allied decision.

If the NEI were Vichy and at war with the CW I think the Japanese would lean heavily on the Germans to collapse Vichy, and unless this would have too major of ramifications to the Med campaign, Germany would agree. The NEI would then suddenly belong to Free France (unless perhaps the CW had scratched up the resources to conquer the NEI, in which case the Japanese would lean really really hard on the Germans to get rid of this crazy Vichy NEI right away before the CW could do the conquest). If Japan were on a strategy allowing for a few turns of early war against a western power before war with the USA, they could be just as pleased to make the western power the Free French and they would go in to the NEI immediately, it is more valuable to them than the CW possessions nearby.

I thought more about this potential option while working today. Aside from the CW losing their Dutch mini-navy, this strategy would have some other downsides. The US Oil Embargo is not far removed from the levels required for them passing War Appropriations. Unless you race to the Oil Embargo and blow off developing tension, which I don't think is a good idea, the Oil Embargo generally lasts only a few turns. Japan can't just sit once the US has high enough entry to pass those. Also, to get the Oil Embargo going very fast, you would have to put your chit draw in the Japan pool fairly often. This could be a big detriment to the Russians facing a 1941 Barbarossa. So I still think this is at best an intellectual exercise without enough benefits to the Allies and they would generally regret what they wished for in this case. I still feel that giving the CW the ten CPs makes it too easy for the CW....when the Germans are planning a 41 Barbarossa, those ten CPs will be part of the network delivering goods to the Russians. (I have long felt that the three hexes the Axis need to really destroy Russia are Vladivostok, Petsamo, and Bandar Shapur).

Oh and let's have another question I have always wondered about when Vichy includes some unconquered minor aligned to it. Paul mentioned the Allies sending the CPs to a port where they would likely join the Free French. If the NEI were not conquered, I can't recall what would happen to aligned minor units belonging to Vichy. Could they even switch sides to the Free French at all? Why? Could we end up with Free Netherlands units alongside Vichy Netherlands units? (I would think not, but haven't played rule 17 Vichy in years and years). Can the code handle this?

(in reply to praem)

Post #: 43

RE: US entry question - 8/1/2009 5:52:21 AM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
Oh and let's have another question I have always wondered about when Vichy includes some unconquered minor aligned to it. Paul mentioned the Allies sending the CPs to a port where they would likely join the Free French. If the NEI were not conquered, I can't recall what would happen to aligned minor units belonging to Vichy. Could they even switch sides to the Free French at all? Why? Could we end up with Free Netherlands units alongside Vichy Netherlands units? (I would think not, but haven't played rule 17 Vichy in years and years). Can the code handle this?

I think it works this way because there are no minor country convoy markers. At least this is what I was thinking when I posted. So the sub I've never seen and any surviving SCS and that horrid TRS would go to the Vichy navy ... I think. But the CONVs all became French at the time of alignment and could be moved to places where they are most likely to become FF.

Edit: Upon further reading of RAW, the other Dutch naval units would go to Vichy or FF based on which home country the Dutch choose after the Netherlands is conquered. If they chose a Dutch colony (and they should do so in the case under discussion) then they might still end up FF. If they chose France (I'd say don't do this) then they'd end up being controlled by Vichy (and moved whenever the Germans do a Naval

) .

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 8/1/2009 6:19:41 AM >

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Post #: 44

RE: US entry question - 8/1/2009 5:58:30 AM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

NEI is not neutral if its Vichy - it is Vichy controlled, and Vichy may be neutral - thus Vichy and not CW would get the 2 remaining oil. IF Vichy is hostile (unlikely) & active, then Vichy may lend all or some recources, including the 2 remainging oil to any major poer on the Axis.
So the list shoudl be:

At start: 2 oil to CW, 2 oil to Japan.
GER DOW Neth, France controls Neth: 2 oil to France, 2 oil to Japan.
GER conquers Neth: no change
GER Vichies France, and theNetherlands and NEI go Vichy: 2 oil to Japan, 2 oil to Vichy France
US does oil embargo: 4 oil to Vichy
CW DOW Vichy: no change
CW makes Vichy hostile: Vichy may give resources to any axis power.

By George, I think you've got it!

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Post #: 45

RE: US entry question - 8/1/2009 6:08:44 AM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

Extraneous, you are correct. However, you will see many posters, including myself, fail to make the distinction between aligning and assuming control.

No need for distinction, just read 19.2. "In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it. "

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Paul

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Post #: 46

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 2:07:52 AM

obermeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

NEI is not neutral if its Vichy - it is Vichy controlled, and Vichy may be neutral - thus Vichy and not CW would get the 2 remaining oil. IF Vichy is hostile (unlikely) & active, then Vichy may lend all or some recources, including the 2 remainging oil to any major poer on the Axis.
So the list shoudl be:

At start: 2 oil to CW, 2 oil to Japan.
GER DOW Neth, France controls Neth: 2 oil to France, 2 oil to Japan.
GER conquers Neth: no change
GER Vichies France, and theNetherlands and NEI go Vichy: 2 oil to Japan, 2 oil to Vichy France
US does oil embargo: 4 oil to Vichy
CW DOW Vichy: no change
CW makes Vichy hostile: Vichy may give resources to any axis power.

So, can CW cut off the NEI oil prior to the embargo, assuming NEI is controlled by CW? I assume that would be true certainly after the CW and Japan come to war, but could they start keeping the NEI oil for themselves before that?

I'm still interested how MWIF will implement these situations. I haven't heard back from Harry Rowland yet about his take on this.

(in reply to praem)

Post #: 47

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 2:43:37 AM

michaelbaldur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

NEI is not neutral if its Vichy - it is Vichy controlled, and Vichy may be neutral - thus Vichy and not CW would get the 2 remaining oil. IF Vichy is hostile (unlikely) & active, then Vichy may lend all or some recources, including the 2 remainging oil to any major poer on the Axis.
So the list shoudl be:

At start: 2 oil to CW, 2 oil to Japan.
GER DOW Neth, France controls Neth: 2 oil to France, 2 oil to Japan.
GER conquers Neth: no change
GER Vichies France, and theNetherlands and NEI go Vichy: 2 oil to Japan, 2 oil to Vichy France
US does oil embargo: 4 oil to Vichy
CW DOW Vichy: no change
CW makes Vichy hostile: Vichy may give resources to any axis power.

So, can CW cut off the NEI oil prior to the embargo, assuming NEI is controlled by CW? I assume that would be true certainly after the CW and Japan come to war, but could they start keeping the NEI oil for themselves before that?

I'm still interested how MWIF will implement these situations. I haven't heard back from Harry Rowland yet about his take on this.

Netherlands
The Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the Commonwealth, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan (see 13.3.2, entry option 31).

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Post #: 48

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 6:08:36 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: obermeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

NEI is not neutral if its Vichy - it is Vichy controlled, and Vichy may be neutral - thus Vichy and not CW would get the 2 remaining oil. IF Vichy is hostile (unlikely) & active, then Vichy may lend all or some recources, including the 2 remainging oil to any major poer on the Axis.
So the list shoudl be:

At start: 2 oil to CW, 2 oil to Japan.
GER DOW Neth, France controls Neth: 2 oil to France, 2 oil to Japan.
GER conquers Neth: no change
GER Vichies France, and theNetherlands and NEI go Vichy: 2 oil to Japan, 2 oil to Vichy France
US does oil embargo: 4 oil to Vichy
CW DOW Vichy: no change
CW makes Vichy hostile: Vichy may give resources to any axis power.

So, can CW cut off the NEI oil prior to the embargo, assuming NEI is controlled by CW? I assume that would be true certainly after the CW and Japan come to war, but could they start keeping the NEI oil for themselves before that?

I'm still interested how MWIF will implement these situations. I haven't heard back from Harry Rowland yet about his take on this.

Netherlands
The Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the Commonwealth, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan (see 13.3.2, entry option 31).

Yes.

If NEI is controlled by Vichy France, then The Netherlands is unable to supply Japan with 2 oil resources - since The Netherlands wouldn't control any oil resources in that case.

EDIT: Indeed, The Netherlands would be completely conquered in this case and any Trade Agreements it has are moot. Forget about the CW getting any oil from the NEI.

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 8/2/2009 6:11:29 AM >

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Post #: 49

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 6:32:57 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
If NEI is controlled by Vichy France, then The Netherlands is unable to supply Japan with 2 oil resources - since The Netherlands wouldn't control any oil resources in that case.

This makes sense.

quote:

EDIT: Indeed, The Netherlands would be completely conquered in this case and any Trade Agreements it has are moot. Forget about the CW getting any oil from the NEI.

The Netherlands also control a Minor Country in South America, Dutch Guyana. So it would not be completely conquered IMO.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 50

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 7:29:54 AM

praem

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Why would Netherlands be completly conquered if its Vichy?
Vichy isn't the conqueror - only the controler - ie. the remains of the Netherlands are alligned to Vichy France, as would be the case if CW or Free France where the controller. At least thats my enterpetation for what its worth

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 51

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 8:06:14 AM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

Why would Netherlands be completly conquered if its Vichy?
Vichy isn't the conqueror - only the controler - ie. the remains of the Netherlands are alligned to Vichy France, as would be the case if CW or Free France where the controller. At least thats my enterpetation for what its worth

I agree completely. NEI is the remnant of the Netherlands (indeed it could be the new Dutch home country). Just because it is controlled by Vichy, does not mean it stops satisfying the rule that says 2 oil go to Japan. However the 2 oil to the CW are conditional to Netherlands being neutral. As soon as the Netherlands is DoW'd, that condition ceases to exist. When Vichy is created, it is usually not at war but it is on the Axis side. (There are only two sides in WiF, per the RAW glossary.) Claiming the Netherlands is neutral because Vichy is not at war is a big stretch. So Vichy keeps those 2 oil.

And in MWIF it could happen with this strategy that Dutch Guyana becomes the new Dutch home country after the Netherlands is incompletely conquered, and then it could go FF while NEI goes Vichy. Nonetheless, "the Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn" and would be forced to do so under the rules despite the Dutch home country being controlled by FF.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

If NEI is controlled by Vichy France, then The Netherlands is unable to supply Japan with 2 oil resources - since The Netherlands wouldn't control any oil resources in that case.

EDIT: Indeed, The Netherlands would be completely conquered in this case and any Trade Agreements it has are moot. Forget about the CW getting any oil from the NEI.

I'd say both of those statements are incorrect. Supplying oil to Japan in this case is no different then the normal case where the CW controls NEI and still continues sending the 2 oil to Japan. And whether or not Dutch Guyana is in the game, Netherlands is not completely conquered until all its minors are also conquered, and NEI would be aligned to either FF or Vichy - not conquered by either of them.

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Post #: 52

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 9:28:26 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

Why would Netherlands be completly conquered if its Vichy?
Vichy isn't the conqueror - only the controler - ie. the remains of the Netherlands are alligned to Vichy France, as would be the case if CW or Free France where the controller. At least thats my enterpetation for what its worth

I agree completely. NEI is the remnant of the Netherlands (indeed it could be the new Dutch home country). Just because it is controlled by Vichy, does not mean it stops satisfying the rule that says 2 oil go to Japan. However the 2 oil to the CW are conditional to Netherlands being neutral. As soon as the Netherlands is DoW'd, that condition ceases to exist. When Vichy is created, it is usually not at war but it is on the Axis side. (There are only two sides in WiF, per the RAW glossary.) Claiming the Netherlands is neutral because Vichy is not at war is a big stretch. So Vichy keeps those 2 oil.

And in MWIF it could happen with this strategy that Dutch Guyana becomes the new Dutch home country after the Netherlands is incompletely conquered, and then it could go FF while NEI goes Vichy. Nonetheless, "the Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn" and would be forced to do so under the rules despite the Dutch home country being controlled by FF.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

If NEI is controlled by Vichy France, then The Netherlands is unable to supply Japan with 2 oil resources - since The Netherlands wouldn't control any oil resources in that case.

EDIT: Indeed, The Netherlands would be completely conquered in this case and any Trade Agreements it has are moot. Forget about the CW getting any oil from the NEI.

I'd say both of those statements are incorrect. Supplying oil to Japan in this case is no different then the normal case where the CW controls NEI and still continues sending the 2 oil to Japan. And whether or not Dutch Guyana is in the game, Netherlands is not completely conquered until all its minors are also conquered, and NEI would be aligned to either FF or Vichy - not conquered by either of them.

Let's take a specific case.

1. Germany DOW's The Netherlands and the Allies align it to France. The Netherlands is then a minor country controlled by France.
2. The Netherlands' home land is conquered by Germany and the government in exile is set up in NEI (or Dutch Guyana, it doesn't matter). The Netherlands is still controlled by France.
3. Germany takes Paris and declares Vichy France.
4. The die roll for determining control of the Administration Group "All other territories and minors" goes to Vichy. Since The Netherlands qualifies as being within that group, it goes Vichy (both NEI and Dutch Guyana - there is nothing in the rules about rolling separately for each minor country, just separately for each Administration Group).
5. So, at this point The Netherlands is aligned to Vichy France and is Axis controlled. Vichy France is neutral, and by implication, so is The Netherlands: I really can't see The Netherlands remaining at war with Germany while controlled by Vichy France. If the Allies attack Vichy, then The Netherlands is at war with the Allies.
6. The original Trade Agreement remains fully functional as long as Vichy exists and remains Neutral.

{I had thought the transfer of The Netherlands to Vichy control meant it was completely conquered, but apparently it doesn't.}

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 53

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 11:38:14 AM

oscar72se

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From: Gothenburg Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
...
1. Germany DOW's The Netherlands and the Allies align it to France. The Netherlands is then a minor country controlled by France.
2. The Netherlands' home land is conquered by Germany and the government in exile is set up in NEI (or Dutch Guyana, it doesn't matter). The Netherlands is still controlled by France.
3. Germany takes Paris and declares Vichy France.
4. The die roll for determining control of the Administration Group "All other territories and minors" goes to Vichy. Since The Netherlands qualifies as being within that group, it goes Vichy (both NEI and Dutch Guyana - there is nothing in the rules about rolling separately for each minor country, just separately for each Administration Group).
...

I think you are wrong here. Netherlands isn't a part of France regardless of which player that controls this country. Therefore Netherlands could never be a part of France or Vichy unless there are some serious DoWs involved

Regards,
Oscar

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 54

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 3:59:56 PM

Extraneous

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
...
1. Germany DOW's The Netherlands and the Allies align it to France. The Netherlands is then a minor country controlled by France.
2. The Netherlands' home land is conquered by Germany and the government in exile is set up in NEI (or Dutch Guyana, it doesn't matter). The Netherlands is still controlled by France.
3. Germany takes Paris and declares Vichy France.
4. The die roll for determining control of the Administration Group "All other territories and minors" goes to Vichy. Since The Netherlands qualifies as being within that group, it goes Vichy (both NEI and Dutch Guyana � there is nothing in the rules about rolling separately for each minor country, just separately for each Administration Group).
...

This is only for clairifacation for me.

So what your saying is:

No matter how many territories and minor countries France controlled there would be only be one (1) die roll to determine if they ALL go Free French otherwise they remain Vichy?

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(in reply to oscar72se)

Post #: 55

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 4:20:00 PM

Extraneous

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Joined: 6/14/2008
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Since there is nothing in the rules stating that the controlling minor country has to be on the other side.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

Each hex France controls in a territory or home country controlled by another major power or minor country reverts to the control of:

(a) the major power occupying the hex (if any); or if none
(b) that other major power or minor country.

That control of the Netherlands (and the NEI) reverts to the Netherlands?

_____________________________

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(in reply to Extraneous)

Post #: 56

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 5:05:05 PM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
So what your saying is:

No matter how many territories and minor countries France controlled there would be only be one (1) die roll to determine if they ALL go Free French otherwise they remain Vichy?

One die roll per administrative group.
For example, only 1 die roll for Algeria Tunisia Morocco (called Mahgreb here in France), so you don't roll separately for Morocco, Algeria or France.

(in reply to Extraneous)

Post #: 57

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 6:26:43 PM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: praem

Why would Netherlands be completly conquered if its Vichy?
Vichy isn't the conqueror - only the controler - ie. the remains of the Netherlands are alligned to Vichy France, as would be the case if CW or Free France where the controller. At least thats my enterpetation for what its worth

I agree completely. NEI is the remnant of the Netherlands (indeed it could be the new Dutch home country). Just because it is controlled by Vichy, does not mean it stops satisfying the rule that says 2 oil go to Japan. However the 2 oil to the CW are conditional to Netherlands being neutral. As soon as the Netherlands is DoW'd, that condition ceases to exist. When Vichy is created, it is usually not at war but it is on the Axis side. (There are only two sides in WiF, per the RAW glossary.) Claiming the Netherlands is neutral because Vichy is not at war is a big stretch. So Vichy keeps those 2 oil.

And in MWIF it could happen with this strategy that Dutch Guyana becomes the new Dutch home country after the Netherlands is incompletely conquered, and then it could go FF while NEI goes Vichy. Nonetheless, "the Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn" and would be forced to do so under the rules despite the Dutch home country being controlled by FF.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

If NEI is controlled by Vichy France, then The Netherlands is unable to supply Japan with 2 oil resources - since The Netherlands wouldn't control any oil resources in that case.

EDIT: Indeed, The Netherlands would be completely conquered in this case and any Trade Agreements it has are moot. Forget about the CW getting any oil from the NEI.

I'd say both of those statements are incorrect. Supplying oil to Japan in this case is no different then the normal case where the CW controls NEI and still continues sending the 2 oil to Japan. And whether or not Dutch Guyana is in the game, Netherlands is not completely conquered until all its minors are also conquered, and NEI would be aligned to either FF or Vichy - not conquered by either of them.

Let's take a specific case.

1. Germany DOW's The Netherlands and the Allies align it to France. The Netherlands is then a minor country controlled by France.
2. The Netherlands' home land is conquered by Germany and the government in exile is set up in NEI (or Dutch Guyana, it doesn't matter). The Netherlands is still controlled by France.
3. Germany takes Paris and declares Vichy France.
4. The die roll for determining control of the Administration Group "All other territories and minors" goes to Vichy. Since The Netherlands qualifies as being within that group, it goes Vichy (both NEI and Dutch Guyana - there is nothing in the rules about rolling separately for each minor country, just separately for each Administration Group).
5. So, at this point The Netherlands is aligned to Vichy France and is Axis controlled. Vichy France is neutral, and by implication, so is The Netherlands: I really can't see The Netherlands remaining at war with Germany while controlled by Vichy France. If the Allies attack Vichy, then The Netherlands is at war with the Allies.
6. The original Trade Agreement remains fully functional as long as Vichy exists and remains Neutral.

{I had thought the transfer of The Netherlands to Vichy control meant it was completely conquered, but apparently it doesn't.}

I'll grant that the Netherlands could become neutral. Thinking about this since my last post, I'd have to say it is at least an open question as to whether a neutral Vichy controlling NEI and the new Dutch home country would not be forced to once again satisfy the condition "A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil." It's important to realize the Netherlands still exists as an entity until completely conquered. That entity is subject to the above condition. It might be worth asking Harry if the CW would still get the two oil in this case.

However, NEI and Dutch Guyana are not in the same Admin group. Per the FAQ Q17.2-6: What happens to countries conquered and
aligned by France when Vichy is declared? (BTW should really be worded conquered or aligned) A: You roll for them on the appropriate row of the Free-French chart (see WiF 17.2).

NEI is in the "All Asian map minors & territories 7-10" group and Dutch Guyana is in the "All other territories & minors 9-10" group.

So indeed where it gets really hairy (pun intended) is if Dutch Guyana is the new Dutch home country (trying this strategy, I might do this to try and get the remnants of the Dutch navy - or at least avoid all the eggs in one basket) and it goes FF. Meanwhile NEI goes Vichy. Now we have the entity of the Netherlands still at war and the entity of NEI aligned and controlled by the other side. In that case it would be hard to see the CW getting the 2 oil since Germany "acts on behalf of Vichy" in such matters. Edit: Not to mention the Netherlands would not be neutral and so the condition to give the CW 2 oil is voided.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 8/2/2009 6:32:29 PM >

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Paul

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 58

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 6:38:25 PM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Since there is nothing in the rules stating that the controlling minor country has to be on the other side.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.o.pdf

Each hex France controls in a territory or home country controlled by another major power or minor country reverts to the control of:

(a) the major power occupying the hex (if any); or if none
(b) that other major power or minor country.

That control of the Netherlands (and the NEI) reverts to the Netherlands?

This clause is in RAW to cover controlled hexes as opposed to controlled countries. It is to cover FREX the case where France took some hexes in Libya but not Tripoli and then Vichy gets declared.

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Post #: 59

RE: US entry question - 8/2/2009 7:51:44 PM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
I'll grant that the Netherlands could become neutral. Thinking about this since my last post, I'd have to say it is at least an open question as to whether a neutral Vichy controlling NEI and the new Dutch home country would not be forced to once again satisfy the condition "A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil." It's important to realize the Netherlands still exists as an entity until completely conquered. That entity is subject to the above condition. It might be worth asking Harry if the CW would still get the two oil in this case.

As you saw Paul, I asked.

quote:

However, NEI and Dutch Guyana are not in the same Admin group. Per the FAQ Q17.2-6: What happens to countries conquered and
aligned by France when Vichy is declared? (BTW should really be worded conquered or aligned) A: You roll for them on the appropriate row of the Free-French chart (see WiF 17.2).

NEI is in the "All Asian map minors & territories 7-10" group and Dutch Guyana is in the "All other territories & minors 9-10" group.

Well spotted Paul.

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 60