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RE: Allied AI Cheats!!

 
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RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/26/2009 12:17:34 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		The AI does get assistance in some things (and no I am not going to sit here and list them)

We tried to make it invisible to players but sometimes its not possible to envisage every circumstance where something that should be invisible becomes visible.

Andy

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 31
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/26/2009 12:19:31 PM   
Sheytan


Posts: 863
Joined: 11/28/2006
Status: offline 		? Then how is it a AI TF can shoot all day long and my TF depletes? I didnt make the example I quoted above up. Is it that the AI has "unlimited stores" for that turn? The surface combat sequence? What is it? Or how is it that I am misunderstanding what im seeing??? Please shed a bit more light on the mechanics so we can put this to rest.

I promise not to sell this info to the chinese, well hell, the game already has a made in china sticker on it so they already know
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

The AI does not get unlimited anything.

Andy




(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 32
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/26/2009 12:21:42 PM   
Sheytan


Posts: 863
Joined: 11/28/2006
Status: offline 		Understood, so there is something going on under the hood. At least im not imagining anything. Thanks for the info!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

The AI does get assistance in some things (and no I am not going to sit here and list them)

We tried to make it invisible to players but sometimes its not possible to envisage every circumstance where something that should be invisible becomes visible.

Andy



(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 33
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/26/2009 12:26:10 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: doc smith

As if the Allies don't have enough of an advantage over the poor sons of heaven, playing scenario 001 as Japan, around 12 Dec I loaded the game to look at what the AI is doing. I was shocked to see units listed as West Coast (R) are now loaded on tnps and headed toward Hawaii!!! Still listed as West Coast units, not reassigned to a non-restricted HQ.

Wassup??


Of course "the AI cheats" (and not just "the Allied AI). The basic program of the game does not permit introducing "thought" into the AI. At best it can make use of multiple "scripts" to drive it's actions...

Everybody demanded a more "challanging" AI for AE, and as at heart the AI is still a moron, the only way to achieve that was to make it a stronger, more capable and more flexible moron. So it's allowed certain "freedoms" from the rules to make it more challanging. If you want an opponant that will challange you without cheating, try a PBEM.

(in reply to doc smith)
Post #: 34
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/26/2009 12:32:16 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Not sure send me a save Sheytan and I will take a look the AI does NOT get unlimited ammo

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 35
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/26/2009 1:46:52 PM   
Zebedee


Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rexor

To be sure, I don't expect a cheat-less AI. I just think it's pointless to advertise an AI on a game only to give players a computer opponent that isn't playing the same game. I also think the widespread defeatism regarding capable AIs has gone too far. Why not try to work out a solution rather than simply accept that no capable AI is possible in a computer strategy game?


I'm not disagreeing with you but pointing out the limitations which are currently in force. :) AE is an order of magnitude more complex than a game like Go - and currently Go requires a supercomputer at the bleeding edge of AI technology to give a decent game to an amateur player. We've got to set our expectations within reasonable limits no matter how much we want an AI which does what a human opponent can do.

Opening up the AI to further scripting will pay dividends in that it will allow for a seemingly more 'reactive' or 'creative' AI. I think for the moment though that some of the accusations being made in the thread are illfounded or made without knowledge of the very real technical limitations. Let's see how the AI performs over the duration of a couple of full campaigns and then see if we can help out the AE devs in masking or minimising AI cheats when we have a more rounded view of how things work.

Andy Mac has asked us not to delve too deeply into AI cheats (and the AI in general) at the moment, so I appreciate him clarifying the 'unlimited everything' situation as being untrue.

(in reply to Rexor)
Post #: 36
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/26/2009 2:09:30 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		nm no point

(in reply to Zebedee)
Post #: 37
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/26/2009 2:43:59 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Yes..come on guys. As several have said, the game is massively more complicated than chess. How could you possibly expect it to play as cohesively as a capable human opponent?

Even so, it is still fun. I kicked the AI's behind on the "hard" setting in both Coral Sea and Guad but you have to be on your toes and ready for the carrier battles and you need to cover your transports landing at Lunga.

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 38
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/26/2009 10:27:02 PM   
Sheytan


Posts: 863
Joined: 11/28/2006
Status: offline 		No question the game is fun.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Yes..come on guys. As several have said, the game is massively more complicated than chess. How could you possibly expect it to play as cohesively as a capable human opponent?

Even so, it is still fun. I kicked the AI's behind on the "hard" setting in both Coral Sea and Guad but you have to be on your toes and ready for the carrier battles and you need to cover your transports landing at Lunga.


(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 39
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/27/2009 2:53:14 AM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		Thanks, Andy. That goes a long way to quieting my concerns!

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 40
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/27/2009 4:14:18 AM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		I've definately seen forty or so planes flying out of a totally empty Japanese base before when I was playing allies vs AI japan.

That, at least, strikes me as "game altering" rather than "game balancing" since it fundementally alters the way the game is played vs the AI and makes certain strategies useless.

Aggressively disrupt convoys to prevent the AI building up large bases near yours? Nope, pointless since the AI will just base his planes on an empty base and bomb you anyway.
Run an attritional campaign to try to trade airframes with the AI at favorable odds? Nope, pointeless, since the AI gets insane replacement rates.

These are the sorts of AI cheats the limit player choices in the name of balance and I, at least, would rather have my choice back and accept that the AI isn't all that good.

(in reply to Cribtop)
Post #: 41
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/27/2009 4:34:06 AM   
Zebedee


Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey

I've definately seen forty or so planes flying out of a totally empty Japanese base before when I was playing allies vs AI japan.


You too can run planes from a base without support. Of course, when planes are damaged and there's no support then they don't get fixed and there are other penalties, but sometimes it's better to accept that rather than lose air cover.


(in reply to pat.casey)
Post #: 42
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/27/2009 4:38:18 AM   
pat.casey

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebedee


quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey

I've definately seen forty or so planes flying out of a totally empty Japanese base before when I was playing allies vs AI japan.


You too can run planes from a base without support. Of course, when planes are damaged and there's no support then they don't get fixed and there are other penalties, but sometimes it's better to accept that rather than lose air cover.




That might be the desired behavior, but from what I can see, the AI can run dozens of missions out of that base and not lose any aircraft. I've seen multiple, repeated strikes out of bases with zero aviation support. I've even loaded hte saved game as the AI side and verified: 1) There is no support (or troops at all in that base, just planes), 2) All groups are at 100% available airframes e.g. nothing is damaged.

(in reply to Zebedee)
Post #: 43
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 8/27/2009 5:01:52 AM   
Zebedee


Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey
That might be the desired behavior, but from what I can see, the AI can run dozens of missions out of that base and not lose any aircraft. I've seen multiple, repeated strikes out of bases with zero aviation support. I've even loaded hte saved game as the AI side and verified: 1) There is no support (or troops at all in that base, just planes), 2) All groups are at 100% available airframes e.g. nothing is damaged.


Not seeing any damaged planes or destroyed planes (especially op losses) within those groups whatsoever over several turns of repeated strikes from such a base would be very odd, I agree.

(in reply to pat.casey)
Post #: 44
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 10/11/2009 3:31:32 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Good thread. Bump to keep the discussion going.

(in reply to Zebedee)
Post #: 45
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 10/11/2009 7:26:24 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: doc smith

I loaded the game to look at what the AI is doing.



Peeking at the opponent's save is also cheating.


< Message edited by jomni -- 10/11/2009 7:30:09 AM >

(in reply to doc smith)
Post #: 46
RE: Allied AI Cheats!! - 10/11/2009 11:49:54 AM   
Sonny II

 

Posts: 2878
Joined: 1/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

quote:

ORIGINAL: doc smith

I loaded the game to look at what the AI is doing.



Peeking at the opponent's save is also cheating.



The AI never complains though.

(in reply to jomni)
Post #: 47
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