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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/4/2010 9:26:31 PM   
wiking62


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/30/2006
From: England
Status: offline 		Okay, thanks for the reply.

I don't want to start another discussion that detracts from your AAR.

Are those Hungarian units that have started to show up in the screenshot of AGS to the South, North and North East of Zhitomir?

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Post #: 421
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/4/2010 10:26:18 PM   
Zort

 

Posts: 684
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Status: offline 		Sorry if I missed this from before, but on the AGC picture, bottom left, there is a symbol on the inf div. What does that mean: entrained?

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 12:11:14 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hart2412

Okay, thanks for the reply.

I don't want to start another discussion that detracts from your AAR.

Are those Hungarian units that have started to show up in the screenshot of AGS to the South, North and North East of Zhitomir?


The off white background units are Slovak. Green background are Hungarian. Baby blue are Rumanian. Gold (yellow) are Italian.

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Post #: 423
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 12:12:36 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zort

Sorry if I missed this from before, but on the AGC picture, bottom left, there is a symbol on the inf div. What does that mean: entrained?


Yup. It's a boxcar. In some earlier shots the symbol looked like two train tracks but it was changed to the boxcar as the train tracks looked more like a ladder.

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Post #: 424
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 2:10:20 AM   
Muzrub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Losses through turn 13:








Hi mate,


Just a quick question- it appears to me that the casualty figures are rather high when comparing Men Killed with Men Disabled.

Do you think the Killed column is out of proportion with the Disabled column?

Also if the killed column could be reduced and more men were added to the Disabled column would those wounded men be added back into the force pool later- or are disabled and wounded considered totally different?

It is just that I have been watching your progress overtime and it really appears that the Eastern Front was even more dangerous than I first suspected- you don't get wounded, you just get dead!

cheers,

keep up the good work.

BTW the idea of highlighting elite army units should be implemented, I might have to go back and check but are NKVD and Guards units highlighted?



< Message edited by Muzrub -- 3/5/2010 2:12:33 AM >

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Post #: 425
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 3:14:44 AM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
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Status: offline 		Actually, I had the same question - since wounded always outnumbered dead.

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Post #: 426
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 4:10:36 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Disabled are very long term but not permanently out of action troops. 2% of the disabled column come back to the manpower pool each turn. There are many more getting wounded each turn that are not in the permanent losses column. Those show up in the Recent Casualties column. In game terms these can be elements that are damaged which can be repaired at any time. Disabled comes from elements that are destroyed.

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Post #: 427
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 4:13:23 AM   
Platypus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Turn 12 for AGC followed a similar patter to the previous version.  We liquidated the pocket even though the Soviets were in supply.  It cost us more casualties but nothing could be done about that.  We also move as many mobile units as possible into the area near Vyazma for the anticipated breakout toward Moscow next turn.  1st SS Mot Div and 60th Mot Div arrived by train from the west and were inserted into the line northwest of Vyazma.  Three more infantry divisions also arrived in the area this turn and will be fed into the flanks next turn if we achieve our breakthrough.





Hi Elmo - some queries about how the AI's capability has changed since the first run-through.

1. Does the re-run simply mean that the SOV AI has deployed more units forward now, thus draining STAVKA's reserves? ie. GER is now seeing some 'desperation' from the AI?

2. Does the SOV AI have its unit releases fixed to a timetable, or, is it based upon various defence lines on the map? ie. if GER reaches the line RZHEV - KALUGA, then X number of SOV divisions appear in front of MOSCOW?

3. Is the AI SOV ORBAT restricted to historical numbers and designations?

The reason I ask is that some other game AIs 'play' in an ahistorical manner, by adding extra units to overcome a clever human opponent.

cheers

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Post #: 428
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 11:28:34 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muzrub

Hi mate,
...

BTW the idea of highlighting elite army units should be implemented, I might have to go back and check but are NKVD and Guards units highlighted?



I think Joel covered your questions about casualties. Guards have a red background so they are distinguished from regular troops that way. I don't recall anything distinguishing about NKVD counters but will check.


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Post #: 429
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 11:35:37 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platypus

Hi Elmo - some queries about how the AI's capability has changed since the first run-through.

1. Does the re-run simply mean that the SOV AI has deployed more units forward now, thus draining STAVKA's reserves? ie. GER is now seeing some 'desperation' from the AI?

2. Does the SOV AI have its unit releases fixed to a timetable, or, is it based upon various defence lines on the map? ie. if GER reaches the line RZHEV - KALUGA, then X number of SOV divisions appear in front of MOSCOW?

3. Is the AI SOV ORBAT restricted to historical numbers and designations?

The reason I ask is that some other game AIs 'play' in an ahistorical manner, by adding extra units to overcome a clever human opponent.

cheers


1. Not sure as I am not looking at the AI side. That would be cheating. The latest updates made the AI more likely to garrison cities and made other improvements to it's play. From air recon I've seen some areas that looks like a defense in depth and other areas that look pretty thin.

2. A number of new Soviet armies are formed automatically in the 15 turns or so. No units are created based on the on-map situation AFAIK.

3. I'm playing on Challenging so the AI gets a number of benefits. Additional units might be one of them. I'm not sure about that as this is my first test of the '41 campaign. Maybe one of the testers with more experience will comment on that.


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Post #: 430
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 5:57:05 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		Not sure I will have time for a full turn today but here is part of it at least.  On turn 14 (week of 9/18/41) AGN made good progress thanks to a combined effort of 4th Pz Grp (red) and 18th Army (purple).  We isolated three Soviet divisions with 1st Pz Div and 8th Pz Div slicing northwest to the western outskirts of Pushkin.  They are now only 20 miles from the port of Leningrad.




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Post #: 431
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 6:04:49 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		elmo,

"port of Leningrad". Is that significant of some sort ?

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Post #: 432
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 7:18:44 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

elmo,

"port of Leningrad". Is that significant of some sort ?


No, since we have good supply lines. If we did not then we might need the port as a supply source.

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Post #: 433
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 7:24:51 PM   
elmo3

 

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Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		In the center we were able to push within 20 miles of W Moscow with 4 divisions from 2nd Pz Grp (light blue) and one from 3rd Pz Grp (light green).  Other units rfom those groups are trailing not too far behind and keep the supply lines open.  The 9th Army (dark green) continues to hold the northern flank although I don't know where those Soviets came from behind out lines north of Smolensk.  They are surrounded and won't be going far now in any case.  I moved most of my airbases forward this turn to be able to provide air support next turn.  Not sure if we will get enough supply to the forward elements for a push on Moscow or whether we'll need to wait another turn.  Time is critical now as the rains and mud will be coming soon.




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Post #: 434
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 8:28:07 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		In the south Kiev fell to  our infantry assault which allowed most of the armor of 1st Pz Grp (red) to push out to the southeast.  I'll have to look at the big picture in the area and decide where to head next given that the weather will be closing in soon.  Supply lines are short right now so we should have plenty of fuel to make some good progress for another couple of weeks at least.




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Post #: 435
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 8:29:54 PM   
elmo3

 

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Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		Noting to report of note on the Rumanian frontier so we'll skip the screen shot and end the turn to get the casualty reports.

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Post #: 436
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 8:46:03 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		Losses through turn 14:






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Post #: 437
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 8:54:01 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
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Status: offline 		Establishing a firm defense on the Dniepr might not be a bad idea - if you can cut south & pocket the remaining Russians on the Rumanian frontier.

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Post #: 438
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 8:56:35 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		OK here is a screen shot for the start of turn 15.  It is the Logistics Phase Event Log showing replacements and ammo that made it to the front this turn.  It also shows that a few units were upgraded to new TOE's. I'm not sure this screen is complete yet so don't worry about what is not shown at this point.




< Message edited by elmo3 -- 3/5/2010 8:57:54 PM >

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Post #: 439
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 8:58:45 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Establishing a firm defense on the Dniepr might not be a bad idea - if you can cut south & pocket the remaining Russians on the Rumanian frontier.


That is a possibility. The 1st Pz Grp is in a good position to make a pocket this turn or next.

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Post #: 440
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/5/2010 11:58:31 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		Great AAR though one observation before Moscow from last turn you just covered 100 miles and lost no tanks apart from 2 breakdowns Surely that needs tweaking? I assume you also met resistance during this thrust as well as mechanical attrition? The Soviets must also be short of armour if they only lost 20 tanks countering a thrust on Moscow

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 3/6/2010 12:01:37 AM >

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Post #: 441
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 12:07:33 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Destroyed tanks went from 788 to 884, so the Germans lost 96 tanks destroyed during the entire turn. No doubt many more were damaged.

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Post #: 442
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 12:13:17 AM   
Smirfy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Destroyed tanks went from 788 to 884, so the Germans lost 96 tanks destroyed during the entire turn. No doubt many more were damaged.


Good to hear and also glad to hear the Russians lost 178 tanks but why does it not show that in the current turn losses?

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Post #: 443
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 12:52:04 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
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From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Losses are just for the last player-turn. I'm guessing Lee is showing the loss screen at the start of the German turn, which means all you see are losses from the Soviet turn plus losses in your logistics phase. As soon as you exit this initial screen, the totals are zeroed out and accumulate until after the logistics phase of the next player's turn, at which point once viewed at the start of their turn the losses zero out again.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 1:53:18 AM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		Yes these loss screens are generated at the start of the German turn.

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Post #: 445
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 9:12:29 AM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		elmo,

quote:

I'll have to look at the big picture in the area and decide where to head next given that the weather will be closing in soon


As long as there are no victory points assigned to certain sov targets the question is rather academic. I assume that the main purpose of your AAR is to see whether WitE is playable at this point and to figure out major bugs. So please, once you've made your decision where AGS will be heading, let us know what your "strategic considerations" - if there are any - have been.


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 10:11:29 AM   
SGHunt


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From: Lancaster, England
Status: offline 		Eimo

A couple of Q's:

1. In both the recent AGC and AGS screenshots there are German divisions/brigades that are white - presumably these are reinforcements that have joined the AG after the start of Barabarossa? They have not been allocated to a Headquarters (yet?) and I was interested to know why? How do they get supply if they have no HQ? How do they (indeed, can they) gain the benefit of additional Corps/Army/Group assets in combat? Are they subordinate to any HQ?

2. In the AGC centre screenshot, there is an air group that is green, like 3rd Pz Grp - is it attached to that Group and, if so, how does that work?

3. The pointy 'spade' symbol on white background (lower left in the AGC SS) is the Boxcar you referred to? There are lots of such companies, but also a Corps, in the AGS screenie. I can't find that symbol in the Nato wiki - just trying to make sense of things.

Many thanks
Stuart

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Post #: 447
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 11:36:12 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou]

As long as there are no victory points assigned to certain sov targets the question is rather academic. I assume that the main purpose of your AAR is to see whether WitE is playable at this point and to figure out major bugs. So please, once you've made your decision where AGS will be heading, let us know what your "strategic considerations" - if there are any - have been.



The main purpose is really to show you guys how the game plays. I could have tested AI capability and looked for bugs and such without doing it in the public forum. I'm trying to play somewhat historically and "pretending" if you will that there are objectives to guide my play. Moscow and Leningrad are obvious goals. Down south it is a little less clear after Kiev falls. I'll have to check my Glantz books for some inspiration for AGS.


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Post #: 448
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 11:53:59 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

Eimo

A couple of Q's:

1. In both the recent AGC and AGS screenshots there are German divisions/brigades that are white - presumably these are reinforcements that have joined the AG after the start of Barabarossa? They have not been allocated to a Headquarters (yet?) and I was interested to know why? How do they get supply if they have no HQ? How do they (indeed, can they) gain the benefit of additional Corps/Army/Group assets in combat? Are they subordinate to any HQ?

2. In the AGC centre screenshot, there is an air group that is green, like 3rd Pz Grp - is it attached to that Group and, if so, how does that work?

3. The pointy 'spade' symbol on white background (lower left in the AGC SS) is the Boxcar you referred to? There are lots of such companies, but also a Corps, in the AGS screenie. I can't find that symbol in the Nato wiki - just trying to make sense of things.

Many thanks
Stuart


1. The German units with white report directly to OKH and most are reinforcements that arrive after the start. I almost always reassign them to a corps so as not to have to keep the OKH HQ right at the front for supply purposes.

2. Airbases that are colored are attached directly to the Army or Army Group with the same color. They can't change their attachment. Soviet airbases only attach to an air HQ, which in turn attaches to a Front. Air missions will normally only contain air units from airbases attached to the same HQ.

3. That is a rail repair unit. The boxcar is shown in my turn 13 AGC screen shot on page 14 of this thread.


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Post #: 449
RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/6/2010 12:49:54 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

Down south it is a little less clear after Kiev falls. I'll have to check my Glantz books for some inspiration for AGS.


Cutting off the Crimea and advancing east to a line running from Kharkov to Melitopol would be historical. The Axis advanced further than that in real life, but your progress is already lagging behind in the area so it's unlikely you'll reach the historical targets. There's no need to in any case. A line from Moscow running south to the Sea of Azov would be good enough. There's no strategic need to advance to Rostov in 1941.

Here's a link to a map covering the 1941 progress: August-December 1941

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 3/6/2010 12:51:51 PM >

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