RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/29/2010 4:03:58 PM

Ron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

PyleDriver, watch your step entering Moscow...the Russians were prepared to blow up the city.

Wartime bomb found at Bolshoi
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2097813.stm

Ha ha, I like the part in the article of the Germans 'besieging' the city!

(in reply to Zorch)

Post #: 391

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/29/2010 4:12:27 PM

Ron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Well Hoth tried and there was reserves pouring in like flies. The Tula pocket looks hopeless, and my right is still my concern. I did had some good victories south of the Oka and we will press on...Oh and what about Kleist?...

(BAR) Hoth took some hits on is left, but still stand firm. The 17th and 12th PzD's in rebild recieved alot of new armor...

Comparing these two screenshots of Hoth's advance around Tula, I'm suprised to hear and see they were reinforced that much/quickly in one weeks time since they are at the tip of the spear. A bit at odds to my way of thinking how operations and logistics were conducted.

(in reply to PyleDriver)

Post #: 392

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/29/2010 4:27:20 PM

PyleDriver

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Ron you should know alot of what is seen in the first (ss) is fatuge. Keeping those railheads close did bring in alot of stuff in the second (ss)...So there is a combo here of what you see...

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(in reply to Ron)

Post #: 393

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/29/2010 4:57:42 PM

Ron

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Perhaps, but I am questioning the operational mechanics and capabilities of the game. Hoth's Army has been in offensive attritional combat since about the end of June, about two months and there has been no breakthrough. How much longer can that carry on without respite?

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Post #: 394

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/29/2010 5:38:22 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

Perhaps, but I am questioning the operational mechanics and capabilities of the game. Hoth's Army has been in offensive attritional combat since about the end of June, about two months and there has been no breakthrough. How much longer can that carry on without respite?

It seems to me also the antithesis of what Germany was capable of more of a slog than artful Blitzkreig. It Looks like alot of fun none the less but the detail appears to have been given artistic license

(in reply to Ron)

Post #: 395

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/29/2010 6:25:31 PM

Joel Billings

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I don't know, sounds right to me. For the first few months of the German attacks in the summer of 42, there were many attempts at making pockets, none of which paid off as big as they did in 42. Lots of slogging and some smaller pockets with lots of Soviet attempts at counterattacks. Seems like what's going on in Jon's game, just in different areas. The attrition all depends on the ratio of losses. If it's 10 to 1 like in 41, then it will be good for Jon. If it's 3 to 1 then it will wear him down, and the advantage in the quality of the units will be reduced. I haven't seen a losses screen recently, but that would be interesting info to see.

(in reply to Smirfy)

Post #: 396

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/29/2010 7:11:33 PM

Flaviusx

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Smirfy, if they Germans had tried to do what Pyledriver is doing, it would have been a grind. Moscow was no easy target in 1942. It was every bit as well defended by reserves and entrenchments as Kursk was a year later. Stalin was expecting the Germans to go for it and prepared for it accordingly. Part of the reason I'm so skeptical of Pyledriver's strategy is precisely because I'm certain it wouldn't have worked in real life. (However, it would have been better than the Stalingrad fiasco.)

If anything, I think the game is underestimating the attrition here a bit, possibly due to the AI. Against a human player I suspect Pyledriver would be hurting even more.

Working as intended. The game is doing more than a reasonable job of simulating the strategy in question. If you don't like the strategy, that's a different story.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 397

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/29/2010 7:57:14 PM

Helpless

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quote:

if they Germans had tried to do what Pyledriver is doing, it would have been a grind. Moscow was no easy target in 1942. It was every bit as well defended by reserves and entrenchments as Kursk was a year later

If anything, I think the game is underestimating the attrition here a bit, possibly due to the AI. Against a human player I suspect Pyledriver would be hurting even more.

Absolutely.

One small note. It is still in alpha including the scenario data as well.

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Post #: 398

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/29/2010 8:06:14 PM

Flaviusx

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Oh, don't get me wrong. I am hugely impressed with the game as is. Even in the Alpha state.

As much as I would love to get my hands on it now, it's wonderful to see a game designer like Grigsby willing to polish this thing to diamond perfection. He could actually release it in something like its present state and it would still be a very good game, but he's not going to settle for second best.

That is so rare in the gaming industry nowadays.

This is going to be the definitive computer wargame on the subject for many years. A true classic.

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Post #: 399

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/29/2010 8:10:46 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

Smirfy, if they Germans had tried to do what Pyledriver is doing, it would have been a grind. Moscow was no easy target in 1942. It was every bit as well defended by reserves and entrenchments as Kursk was a year later. Stalin was expecting the Germans to go for it and prepared for it accordingly. Part of the reason I'm so skeptical of Pyledriver's strategy is precisely because I'm certain it wouldn't have worked in real life. (However, it would have been better than the Stalingrad fiasco.)

If anything, I think the game is underestimating the attrition here a bit, possibly due to the AI. Against a human player I suspect Pyledriver would be hurting even more.

Working as intended. The game is doing more than a reasonable job of simulating the strategy in question. If you don't like the strategy, that's a different story.

I think you are echcoing what I am saying although it looks alot of fun I'm kinda amazed the strategy is viable for the Germans in 42

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/29/2010 8:13:14 PM

Helpless

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quote:

Oh, don't get me wrong. I am hugely impressed with the game as is. Even in the Alpha state.
..

Just for the record - all constructive critics is very welcomed and in fact my words on Jon's initial strategy were exactly as yours

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Post #: 401

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/29/2010 9:01:05 PM

PyleDriver

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I think I'd do better agianst a human. The AI has 3 big advantages. First an attack and defence bonus. Second it sees past FoW. Third they have a full move mp factor... So I cant fool it, and if I do everyone and there mother is there...I will say the AI is one tough cookie now. Its placing reserves in key spots and stopping alot of drives from going far.

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Post #: 402

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/30/2010 5:39:35 AM

freeboy

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we will see! lol
it sure is interesting seeing how far you have come!!! One thing an Ia will leave some holes that a competent human would never due, I await your first 42 as German AAR PUBLIC against a human oponent..
thank you for takingthe time to show us all these details...

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Post #: 403

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/30/2010 1:29:52 PM

wurger54

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quote:

if they Germans had tried to do what Pyledriver is doing, it would have been a grind. Moscow was no easy target in 1942. It was every bit as well defended by reserves and entrenchments as Kursk was a year later

If anything, I think the game is underestimating the attrition here a bit, possibly due to the AI. Against a human player I suspect Pyledriver would be hurting even more.

Absolutely.
quote:

Been watching from the wings... and am reading 'Death of the Wehrmacht'. Tend to agree here. Although the game looks like it is very near the mark.

(in reply to Ron)

Post #: 404

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/30/2010 1:49:44 PM

ComradeP

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quote:

It was every bit as well defended by reserves and entrenchments as Kursk was a year later.

"Defended" as in: the frontline next to the German lines was fortified. Had the Germans tried to attack Moscow or Kursk through the back door (by attacking the Soviet lines North and South of the area, and then attacking from the East, trapping the defenders in a pincer movement), they would not have faced anything coming close to the in-depth defences at Kursk. At Kursk, the Germans were attacking straight into prepared defences, designed to prevent exactly what they were doing. The same goes for Moscow: the vast majority of the defences were concentrated on the 1941 German path of advance. An attack on Moscow from the East would not have faced comparable fixed defences to an attack from the West.

quote:

Stalin was expecting the Germans to go for it and prepared for it accordingly.

That's also the thing the Germans could've exploited. Stalin was expecting Moscow to be attacked from the West, like it was in 1941. Fall Blau was initially seen as a feint, until it was clear the Germans were serious. If the Germans don't attack from the West, the Soviet reserves would be entirely out of position to counter it, which is why Pyledriver's moves might've worked. Of course, a human player will probably not have Stalin's fixation on one part of the front.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 4/30/2010 1:50:08 PM >

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Post #: 405

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/30/2010 4:58:48 PM

Flaviusx

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Stalin had 10 reserve armies set aside in depth and in echelon around Moscow, not just piled up in the front facing directly west. Pretty much doing for Moscow what the Steppe Front did for Kursk the next year.

Point in fact those reserve armies mostly stood in place in that deep reserve until he was certain that the Germans were heading south -- a decision he didn't make until after Voronezh fell. He actually did expect them to swing north from there and could've deployed to counter that. Those forces wound up going to Stalingrad and the surrounding area instead (including 2 tank armies, among others. Chuikov's 62nd was one of these reserve armies, by the way.)

Edit: in a different world, Chuikov might just as well found himself fighting tooth and nail over the ruins of the Kremlin...I wonder where the 62nd army is at in this game?

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 4/30/2010 5:19:42 PM >

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Post #: 406

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/30/2010 9:20:14 PM

jimh009

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

I think I'd do better agianst a human. The AI has 3 big advantages. First an attack and defence bonus. Second it sees past FoW. Third they have a full move mp factor... So I cant fool it, and if I do everyone and there mother is there...I will say the AI is one tough cookie now. Its placing reserves in key spots and stopping alot of drives from going far.

Can you elaborate on the 3 AI advantages? What kind of attack/defense bonus? What do you mean it sees past FOW? And can you explain the full MP factor?

I think it's good that the AI has "some help," so no arguments from me. But it would be nice to know exactly what that help entails!

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Post #: 407

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/30/2010 9:43:20 PM

Plainian

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Chuikov should be commanding the 1st Reserve Army at Tula so thats why Tula is a tough nut to crack. The 1st Resv Army activates as the 64th Army by the way. The 7th Resv Army was stationed at Stalingrad and activates as the 62nd under Kolpakchi.

The Secret of Stalingrad by Walter Kerr published in 1978.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Stalin had 10 reserve armies set aside in depth and in echelon around Moscow, not just piled up in the front facing directly west. Pretty much doing for Moscow what the Steppe Front did for Kursk the next year.

Point in fact those reserve armies mostly stood in place in that deep reserve until he was certain that the Germans were heading south -- a decision he didn't make until after Voronezh fell. He actually did expect them to swing north from there and could've deployed to counter that. Those forces wound up going to Stalingrad and the surrounding area instead (including 2 tank armies, among others. Chuikov's 62nd was one of these reserve armies, by the way.)

Edit: in a different world, Chuikov might just as well found himself fighting tooth and nail over the ruins of the Kremlin...I wonder where the 62nd army is at in this game?

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 408

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/1/2010 12:19:18 AM

Joel Billings

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimh009

quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

I think I'd do better agianst a human. The AI has 3 big advantages. First an attack and defence bonus. Second it sees past FoW. Third they have a full move mp factor... So I cant fool it, and if I do everyone and there mother is there...I will say the AI is one tough cookie now. Its placing reserves in key spots and stopping alot of drives from going far.

Can you elaborate on the 3 AI advantages? What kind of attack/defense bonus? What do you mean it sees past FOW? And can you explain the full MP factor?

I think it's good that the AI has "some help," so no arguments from me. But it would be nice to know exactly what that help entails!

At challenging level, the AI will automatically pass all admin checks for MP reduction. Normally if that check fails, you lose 20% of your MPs. Normally this dependisthe leadership quality and overload of the HQs involved. I'd guess on average there's a 1/3 chance to fail this check (so you can see this as a 7% boost in average MPs). There is a similar init check each turn for each unit, and this is not impacted by the Challenging level.

The AI is not impacted by FOW at the strategic level (i.e. it sees all units on the map). But this only partially offsets the basic strategic inability of any AI (i.e it's not smart enough to take real advantage of the extra information).

I'm not sure what combat bonuses Jon is talking about. At challenging the AI's unit's get a morale bonus and a fort building bonus and a logistics bonus, and these will help it when it fights. However, I don't know of any specific combat benefit (i.e. increased chance to hit just due to the AI level) and don't think there are any.

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Post #: 409

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/1/2010 6:12:26 AM

PyleDriver

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(DAR) Well Model has bridgeheads on both of Kalinin's flanks. A small pocket was taken out in his rear. Armin's corps is ready to support his left...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/1/2010 2:59:59 PM

Zorch

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Doesn't the Russian line look weak now?
Can we see a screenshot of fortification levels?

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/1/2010 4:49:22 PM

kevini1000

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Hi,

I've been following this AAR for some time now. I was curious as to what the German 18th and 17th armies are up to atm.

Thanks

Kevin

< Message edited by sath -- 5/2/2010 8:26:21 PM >

(in reply to Zorch)

Post #: 412

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/1/2010 8:13:44 PM

PyleDriver

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Zorch the fort levels are low in the areas I'm pressing, they only have so much time to form defences...Sath what do you mean by atm?

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Post #: 413

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/1/2010 8:24:35 PM

PyleDriver

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(AAR) The battle for Kalinin is on. Model pushed 4 divisions across the Volga southeast of the city. Theres 2 PzC's across the Tveritsa to the northeast. Rail repair is now being done in Torzhok just 30 miles from Kalinin...Armin is still clearing up the left and destroyed the rail center at Bologoe, still hoping to draw Soviet reserves there...

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Post #: 414

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/1/2010 9:24:44 PM

kevini1000

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Zorch the fort levels are low in the areas I'm pressing, they only have so much time to form defences...Sath what do you mean by atm?

atm is at this moment. I mean what is the 18th army up around lennigrad. I know you had the corridore cut. And what is the 17th army up to. I know they are between the 11th army and the 1st PZ/6th army. Kind of in the south middle area where we do not see many screenshots.

Thanks

Kevin

< Message edited by sath -- 5/3/2010 12:42:35 AM >

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Post #: 415

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/2/2010 4:40:51 PM

PyleDriver

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(AAR) Tula is a thorn in my side. I did isolate it but it could be some time before it falls. Balck launched attacks on Hoths right but chose not to advance... My C&C is a mess with 2nd PzA and I'll need to clean it up very soon.

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Post #: 416

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/3/2010 1:47:23 PM

PyleDriver

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(AAR) Kleist closed the pocket around Voronezh and continues his drive north traping more units. The 502nd Hvy Pz Bat, and more artillery was transfered from OKH to his command...The right flank looks weak with that Soviet build up there. I have a LW flak regiment (88's) and now Tigers laying in wait...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/3/2010 5:56:36 PM

SGHunt

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Jon

Same treatment for Lipetsk, I presume?

I remain concerned about the reduction of the now three significant pockets - how can these be rubbed out quickly to free up the infantry to provide your flank support?

Please see my questions in the Q and A�thread about Kleist's reserves.

Thanks
Stuart

< Message edited by von Jaeger -- 5/3/2010 6:33:37 PM >

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Post #: 418

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 5/7/2010 7:20:38 PM

PyleDriver

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Sorry for the delay on this post. Alot has been going on with updates. Gary just thru me like the 7th AI update since I started this game. We have some map art changes also...Well Kleist got the piss knocked out of him. Over 1200 tanks countered, realing him south and freeing the pockets...This is a (ss) during the Soviet move...Anyone still wondering about the AI?