RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 11:46:06 AM

ComradeP

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quote:

when the game comes out, challenge Jon to a game, show him the errors of his ways

That would be more than challenging, a first timer vs. a playtester. At some point, I would like to play a game against him however. It would be interesting to see whether his blitzkrieg can be stopped. Of course, obviously a lot of what the Axis or Soviets can do in 1942 will depend on what happens in 1941.

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Post #: 181

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 12:02:50 PM

Hard Sarge

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:)

okay, you are making the point I was going for, Jon is a Master at this right now, and he is going to be able to do things that most players will not be able to do, or get away with

so, while it may look "too" easy, or the AI is not doing it's best, you got to remember that it is Jon who is setting it up, to happen that way

(back in the day, I did a few AARs for FoF, before it came out, I am the so called HW expert, it got to the point where people started asking if I was "that" good, or if the AI was that bad, as I never lost a battle, I had a few other testers come in and say, that I was that good, I could win battles that they never could, well, Jon is the same here in this game, Jon is that good)

but I agree with you to a point, a player, would do what every he could, to cut the gap, and most times, would be willing to lose the whole pocket, to try and stall the other player, the AI, is going to see if the flanks are weak, if so, attack, if the flanks are strong, then see if it can hold, or if it should run, or if it should reinforce the damaged area, or should it try and start a new line, that it can protect

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Post #: 182

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 12:06:38 PM

Zorch

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In SPI's War In The East, the Russians needed a double line of fortified rifle divisions to stop breakthroughs (because the 2nd line couldn't be overrun). It looks like that maxim holds here, too. The Russians don't seem to have enough units to do that.

Like the man says, the Germans should concentrate on killing units, overrunning airfields, staying close to the railheads, and not get into any pitched sieges. PyleDriver, you have earned your marshall's baton!

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Post #: 183

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 12:12:21 PM

ComradeP

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Well, although the AI doesn't seem to have many reserves in the area (at least few that we can see), if I were the AI I'd be trying to kick the 11-15 Panzer division out of the hex it's sitting in, possibly after kicking the 8-4 Infanterie division out of its hex first so the Panzer division can be attacked from two sides.

If the Panzer division is moved from the hex, the Germans will be resupplying their breakthrough across a river and in ZOC of multiple Soviet stacks. Even the VVS should be able to interdict a single hex.

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Post #: 184

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 12:39:23 PM

Hard Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

In SPI's War In The East, the Russians needed a double line of fortified rifle divisions to stop breakthroughs (because the 2nd line couldn't be overrun). It looks like that maxim holds here, too. The Russians don't seem to have enough units to do that.

Like the man says, the Germans should concentrate on killing units, overrunning airfields, staying close to the railheads, and not get into any pitched sieges. PyleDriver, you have earned your marshall's baton!

for units, remember, that is another hassle with a bulge, if you clean up your lines, you then have more troops to fill in as reserve, or form a 2nd line someplace

and at the start of this battle, the Russian were over extended, and pretty much burned out from the winter campaign

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Post #: 185

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 12:50:33 PM

Hard Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Well, although the AI doesn't seem to have many reserves in the area (at least few that we can see), if I were the AI I'd be trying to kick the 11-15 Panzer division out of the hex it's sitting in, possibly after kicking the 8-4 Infanterie division out of its hex first so the Panzer division can be attacked from two sides.

If the Panzer division is moved from the hex, the Germans will be resupplying their breakthrough across a river and in ZOC of multiple Soviet stacks. Even the VVS should be able to interdict a single hex.

again, not trying to speak for Jon

but, okay, hit the 11-15 PD, sounds easy, but with what ? , (and just in case, that 15 is it's movement rate, not it's defence, it CV is a 11, so it's defence is normally stronger, the SU don't have anything close that can hit that bugger)

you may have a chance on the other side, to hit that Inf Reg (with the Inf Corps and the Guards, and maybe what is under that Tank unit, keep the tanks out of the battle, use that to explot if the Inf is forced to retreat)(but, would say it is dug in, and has been for a while, so not as easy a nut to crack as it may look)

since you see those blank units, Jon has FOW on, so you may not be seeing any of the Russian Reserve

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Post #: 186

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 1:32:53 PM

ComradeP

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quote:

but, okay, hit the 11-15 PD, sounds easy, but with what ? , (and just in case, that 15 is it's movement rate, not it's defence, it CV is a 11, so it's defence is normally stronger, the SU don't have anything close that can hit that bugger)

We don't know what the Soviets have in the area. PyleDriver was also really confident he could maintain his positions around Voronezh, but the AI bumped him out of the hexes he was holding.

Attacking that Panzer division is the only way to cause supply problems with a single attack. the Soviets could also attack the motorized division north of it, but that still leaves a 10 mile corridor.

PyleDriver doesn't seem to have any mobile reserves in the area, according to the screenshots.

quote:

you may have a chance on the other side, to hit that Inf Reg

Which Infantry regiment? I see only stacks with at least 2 regiments. the only single regiment stacks seem to be those motorized division units. Those regiments are exposed to an attack from the north or east, but not from the west.

Also: depending on how many friends the Soviets in the area can bring, they can attack that single 4. Armee 8-2 Panzer division from 4 sides, or possibly the 10. Motorized division from 5 sides. The "8" as a strength value could be an indication that the Panzer division might not hold on to the hex if attacked. That would leave the 10. Motorized division exposed to counterattacks later on, being isolated. PyleDriver only has what looks like a single understrength non-static Panzer division in the area to help out if something goes wrong.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 4/4/2010 1:40:04 PM >

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Post #: 187

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 1:52:10 PM

Hard Sarge

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you don't have too much strength on the right hand side, not to take out a PZ Div

you got much better strength on the left, but, most of it is out of place, to help, shifting out of the line, to where it is needed, is going to burn up the MPs it needs to attack

in fact, it would be better to pull out of the line and shorten it, and try to block/blunt those PZ Regs

(yes, you are right, those are stacks, I was only saying what was on top)

remember, we are trying to figure something out from a screenshot, in the game, you would be able to get much better info

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< Message edited by Hard Sarge -- 4/4/2010 2:10:12 PM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 1:57:23 PM

Hard Sarge

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this is what I am trying to say, with out the mouse over, we don't know what those unit's defence numbers are

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 2:07:54 PM

Hard Sarge

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look under the mouse over, you see the SU defence numbers

you got a 1-1, 2-4, 1-2, 1-2, 1-3, 1-5, 1-4, and 2-4 (front line)

with in reason, those are all the same, some are in better terrian, had a chance to start digging in, little better rested (besides all the rest of the stuff)

of course, some may be weaken from combat, be very untrained, lacking goodies and what not

so, from what you can see, those troops to the north, behind the river, may be able to stand up to my Panzers, but those in the middle are in trouble, and, no matter what, none are going to be able to do much damage on the attack (yet)

(my hassle will be, I don't have any support, so I can't hold a major breakthough here, yet, but I can ruin somebodies day)

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 2:09:53 PM

Hard Sarge

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plus, you can change what those numbers are on the counter, so not all of this is as stright forward as it may look

< Message edited by Hard Sarge -- 4/4/2010 2:14:19 PM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 2:14:12 PM

ComradeP

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But what would be gained by that attack? The losses would probably be heavy, but the Guards are still sitting on the rail line so removing those Infantry regiments doesn't seem to have much of a strategic purpose currently.

Assuming that, in good terrain, the defensive value of a unit is about double the attacking value (as per your light woods example), the defensive strength of the 11-15 Panzer division would be about 20 in regular terrain. In that case, that division's probably more or less safe for the moment.

That does mean the 4. Armee units I talked about in the edit to the previous post:

"Also: depending on how many friends the Soviets in the area can bring, they can attack that single 4. Armee 8-2 Panzer division from 4 sides, or possibly the 10. Motorized division from 5 sides. The "8" as a strength value could be an indication that the Panzer division might not hold on to the hex if attacked. That would leave the 10. Motorized division exposed to counterattacks later on, being isolated. PyleDriver only has what looks like a single understrength non-static Panzer division in the area to help out if something goes wrong. "

Could be in trouble as it would only have a defensive strength of about 15.

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Post #: 192

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 2:24:06 PM

Hard Sarge

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that Inf Reg is the key to the whole defence, if you can push it back (better if it breaks or retreats to a another hex, but... if it retreats to where the Arrow head is, you move your Armor forward, and attack again, if you can break or retreat it again, you are now in his backfield, if you have enough movement, you take out one or two of his HQ's and all but cut the breakthough

to be honest, I don't think the SU is going to have the MP needed to make this work, but it is "best" choice

I don't know, from what we are shown, if you have enough to hit that 8-4, if "my" attack worked, it may be a good gamble to try for

but, all that would do, is buy a little time, they are dead after they do it (but may give the pocket a chance to get away)

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 4:18:58 PM

ComradeP

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quote:

that Inf Reg is the key to the whole defence, if you can push it back (better if it breaks or retreats to a another hex, but... if it retreats to where the Arrow head is, you move your Armor forward, and attack again, if you can break or retreat it again, you are now in his backfield, if you have enough movement, you take out one or two of his HQ's and all but cut the breakthough

So you feel that the Soviet stacks would have the power/MP's to: attack across a minor river, force the enemy to retreat, move across that minor river into an enemy controlled hex in ZOC of enemy units, attack the units that were bumped out of the hex again, move forwards into another enemy held hex in ZOC of enemy units and either advance into another enemy controlled hex in enemy ZOC and attack a HQ or attack a HQ across a minor river?

That sounds like a very risky plan. I don't know what the retreat sequence is, but if the infantry regiments retreat a single hex or if German reserves arrive, the units might not rout and retreat to a hex you don't want them to be in (such as the hexes next to the HQ's). Besides, as you say: the Soviet units would die in the Axis turn and the corridor leading to the penetrating spearheads would still be open.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 4:22:11 PM

SGHunt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

Link up at Tula for the next and biggest pocket?

Where is Kleist?�� (Where is Grouchy?)

And down South - have the heavy guns started hammering Rostov yet?

S

Tula ? I would be heading towards Kyazan, unless the northern thrust has trouble

(but I am a sucker for Airfields, nothing like a tank running a bomber or two under it's treads)

of course, I am not the master of the pocket, I tend to be more of a bull in a china shop

Well now, Kyazan - that's a lot of miles of enemy held territory and as many to cover with a chain of troops to maintain coherence and supply - or do you just go for it and worry about supply the following turn(s)? Maybe this approach explains the nickname?

What advantage does a deep penetration like that bring you if it doesn't cut off many, many Red units?

I shall be intrigued to see what the Pylemeister goes for - I still think the more prudent and surer bet is Tula (and even that's asking a lot).

S

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 4:26:42 PM

Hard Sarge

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:)

now you get it

I did say at the start that the Russian was in trouble, and not much they could really do, with what they got

I think that Reg may be about the weakest point in the line, that also has a chance to do something, if it is driven back, the Tanks don't join the first attack, they will have enough to move into the 1st hex, if the Inf falls back onto the arrow head, the Tanks should have enough left to make a attack, drive the Inf back (decent chance, if...) they will at least take control of that next hex

after that, it is a crap shoot

I don't know the Russian leaders, what die roll chances they may have, they going to have to hit a few rolls, to even have a chance to get that far

and again, even if it works as I say it "might", it is still just a spoiling attack, it would make Jon swing back, and slaughter everything in place, then allow him to complete his pocket

with out a mass withdrawl, that line is in trouble

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 4:31:48 PM

Hard Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

Link up at Tula for the next and biggest pocket?

Where is Kleist?�� (Where is Grouchy?)

And down South - have the heavy guns started hammering Rostov yet?

S

Tula ? I would be heading towards Kyazan, unless the northern thrust has trouble

(but I am a sucker for Airfields, nothing like a tank running a bomber or two under it's treads)

of course, I am not the master of the pocket, I tend to be more of a bull in a china shop

Well now, Kyazan - that's a lot of miles of enemy held territory and as many to cover with a chain of troops to maintain coherence and supply - or do you just go for it and worry about supply the following turn(s)? Maybe this approach explains the nickname?

What advantage does a deep penetration like that bring you if it doesn't cut off many, many Red units?

I shall be intrigued to see what the Pylemeister goes for - I still think the more prudent and surer bet is Tula (and even that's asking a lot).

S

LOL

well, to be honest, I was thinking more a split advance (more a double envelopement) which would all depends on how far the northern forces can get, if the southern don't have to go all the way to the northern forces, they could swing off a div or so for the deeper run

my thinking, while you want to close that pocket, Kyazan, threatens Moscow, you take and can hold that, you already have Moscow Flanked, before the SU build a new line

me too, besides, I want him talking, not me :)

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 4:55:42 PM

ComradeP

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Speaking about building a line: what's a realistic rate for building fortifications/achieving a fortified position? With a reasonable amount of engineers, how long does it take to build a level 1 or 2 fort?

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 7:41:47 PM

PyleDriver

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(DAR) The pocket was attacked in force netting over 300k of men and material. Soon Kliest's 1st PzA will take the stage also...Remember guys these are During Action Reports. So if you look behind my lines and see airfields far in the rear, it because I move them forward last. Check out the MP's I still on those two PzC's, there not done playing yet...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 7:58:28 PM

PyleDriver

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Ok, what about Kliest's 1st PzA. Well you'll love this. XL PzC will move to his command next turn. Then cross the Don (7 mech units) in force and provide the flank for Hoth's 4th PzA to advance on Moscow...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 8:51:42 PM

Ron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

To say the AI needs a lesson or two on flank security would be an understatement.

I would tend to agree, as well I would think these AARs would be about showcasing the game and its mechanics and areas for improvement, not a platform for *beta-stars* to stroke their egos.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 9:32:54 PM

pompack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

To say the AI needs a lesson or two on flank security would be an understatement.

I would tend to agree, as well I would think these AARs would be about showcasing the game and its mechanics and areas for improvement, not a platform for *beta-stars* to stroke their egos.

Well, I don't know... I kinda enjoy watching the egos at work.

Of course I guess I might enjoy that showcase as well but since all we have are ALPHA testers taking the trouble to print the screenshots I'm pretty happy.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 10:21:25 PM

PyleDriver

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Ron you sound like my wife. One minute I'm great. the next moment I'm being spanked...lol...Theres a few of us that play rough. Andy is by far rougher than me, go figure. He can destroy the 41 game. But we have gotten this AI over 2 years to play so much better. Hell my first games I was taking Vologda before the rain came...I'm not tring to show off, just keeping the interrest in this game going...Enjoy...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 10:35:19 PM

PyleDriver

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Well I debated this move, I left a weak flank but with 6 divisions in the rear I pressed toward the Don...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/4/2010 11:31:34 PM

freeboy

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hello PD, why did you not attack the little red army unit that has a 1-5, was the defense very high, I noticed previously that there was a mobile unit behind the intial stack that was close to it, so I thought you would blow through that gap also!

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/5/2010 12:46:47 AM

PyleDriver

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Bearclaws...There killing me...Attrition from their attacks are a real pain. I need (in losses) a 5 to 1 ratio in armor, 10 to 1 in manpower and 8 to 1 in guns...Not getting it, the AI has upset my tempo big time with their attacks. The idea is to capture the industral and population centers. Up to this point I've only sacked Voronezh...hum..

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< Message edited by PyleDriver -- 4/5/2010 12:52:24 AM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/5/2010 1:28:48 AM

PyleDriver

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We have a new dog (a puppy). I bounces around bites my feet, and looks at me like what are you going to do? The Soviets are like that in this game, at least I can put her in the bathroom... It's naptime for me. More reports to follow...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/5/2010 5:57:20 AM

PyleDriver

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(BAR) Omg, they took Orel. What is it with these guys...They produce like rabbits and they wont let up...You guys think the AI is weak now?...Lol...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/5/2010 10:56:22 AM

ComradeP

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I'm not sure how impressive that is considering that you had single understrength infantry divisions holding the hexes they advanced in. The stack with the Tank Corps on top was also on "your" side of the river, so I don't know how impressive a 3 hex advance is taking that into account.

What is truly impressive is that the AI decided to leave a huge hole where its western flank used to be, which allows you to convert railroads to your armoured/motorized spearheads. The AI also moved air groups closer to the front. Why the AI would think it's a good thing to place an air group 2 hexes away from the nearest motorized/Panzer formation is beyond me.

Considering that you're not concentrating a massive amount of forces no a single spot, but try multiple breakthrough at once, a few succesful AI counterattacks against overexposed/overextended units were the logical result. The question remains: what will the AI do now and why did they withdraw almost an entire flank.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/5/2010 12:10:47 PM

SGHunt

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Ron writes that this thread is not

quote:

a platform for *beta-stars* to stroke their egos...

A trifle harsh? I trust you two are good mates!

I for one am realy enjoying the reports and the insights into PD's motives and planning decisions. These ARE the game mechanics, to my mind.

And, ComradeP, the AI has plugged its gaps as far as it can, pushed back and cut off a couple of PzG Regiments, and the counter-attack at Orel is going to cause PD a load of hassle and time to clear up. Without the kind of overwhelming attack strength of the Germans, this is pretty good for the AI - I thought they would be running to reform this turn. Delay, delay and attrite. They can afford it.

S

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