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Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/2/2010 9:58:26 AM

visor172

Posts: 9
Joined: 5/6/2008
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Hi,

in my early games, less money and less developed worlds, I won every war against ai races in this way:

-retire all frigate and destroyers
-building from beginning only troop ships with 3 troop compartments and some more fuel cells for more range
-recruit some more troops on your homeworlds
-one fleet one troop ships with 3 troops (to handle the troop ships easier)
-once it comes to war with any ai race, I sent to every enemy world one troop fleet
-some minutes later I invaded sucessfully 6-10 enemy worlds with all the colonists (=more income) and if lucky race abilities (colonizing other worlds, more incame, etc).
-load the tropps from the conquered worlds to the troop ships and conquer the next 6-10 worlds of my enemy

Result: economy of enemy is broken, my income is great, enemy can no longer maintance fleets and so on

This is possible because the AI dont recruit troops on new worlds and dont built starbases on new worlds.
Maybe this should be changed cause it makes winning wars too easy IMO.

Visor

Post #: 1

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/2/2010 11:06:21 AM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline

With the bugs and gameplay improved in the latest patch hopefully Elliot can improve the A.I in future patches.

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Post #: 2

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/2/2010 6:44:36 PM

Canute0

Posts: 616
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: Germany
Status: offline

I think troops should have more affect on Planet moral.
When you conquer an planet with population that isn't yours, the Moral should be very negativ. And the troops are needed to keep the planet at your empire.

If you get these troops to conquer the next planet, the planet you got the troops from should suffer from his bad moral get independend or join the Empire of the population are from.

At this way you still can do alot damage to the empires, but it slows down the colony gain for you.

Ack no forget that, that meany you will need ALOT more troops/Troop carrier when you go for a real war ! :-))

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

Post #: 3

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/2/2010 8:06:26 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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I like the idea that you basically have to keep your troops on a planet for a while to control it after conquering it.

OP, you use fleets of 3 compartment troop ships? why? I use 10 compartments per troop ship, and if a planet is heavily guarded i will use 3 of those ships on it at once. smaller planets get one of those... the reason for 10 is because it turns the planet almost instantly, and I don't lose any troops in the process... i then start the recruitment of 1 new troop on the conquered planet, this allows me to pick up all finished troops (otherwise 1 would be left on it)... resulting in my ship getting back every single troop it put down, usually..

oh, and in addition to 10 troop pods i also load them to the brim with shields, armor, and engines... they are VERY fast and VERY durable... I remove ALL weapons, set them to evade, retreat when shields are 20 percent, invade immediately... This way they can just fly by as the enemy starbases helplessly fire at it (doing small damage to shields) and conquer the plants with the starbase...
thise does require that the enemy be much lower tech then you... same tech enemies insta-gib my transports as they approach, which requires me to kill the star bases before attempting an invasion.

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Post #: 4

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/3/2010 1:51:45 AM

Fishman

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The real reason that invasion is so simple is that the AI does not properly betroopen his planets. You can see this same thing happening in your own planets left to auto-recruit. If the AI did what I was doing and stocked every planet with hundreds to thousands of troops, this would not be so easy. I mean, you heard what that guy said. He invades with 60 troops at a time: 10 troops, 2 troops per pod, 3 ships. Suddenly, 500-man garrisons don't seem so unreasonable, do they?

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 5

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/3/2010 2:34:34 AM

Munchies

Posts: 43
Joined: 4/21/2010
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A tractor beam would be awesome in Taltamir's case.
Tractor his troopship that tries to slip by and pound it into dust.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 6

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/3/2010 6:45:58 AM

Roghain

Posts: 30
Joined: 7/15/2006
From: Ede, Netherlands
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If ya don't mind asking - how... what... ??

I repeatedly have come acros independent alien planets in several (three last I do know, before memory gets hazy) that were unconquerable by me even with massive troop invasions - I have seen planets with 4-5 troops beat off my 25 troops in a month or so. I play humans exclusively (I dunno - I feel like I actually know them), opponents vary between normal races and the more warlike Slukens.

I read that the population itself also fights the invaders.

I have not seen this in 1.04.4 yet - but I started my first game this weekend and have not seen aliens there.

(in reply to Munchies)

Post #: 7

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/3/2010 7:53:55 AM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roghain

If ya don't mind asking - how... what... ??

I repeatedly have come acros independent alien planets in several (three last I do know, before memory gets hazy) that were unconquerable by me even with massive troop invasions - I have seen planets with 4-5 troops beat off my 25 troops in a month or so. I play humans exclusively (I dunno - I feel like I actually know them), opponents vary between normal races and the more warlike Slukens.

I read that the population itself also fights the invaders.

I have not seen this in 1.04.4 yet - but I started my first game this weekend and have not seen aliens there.

Race matters a WHOLE LOT. The fuzzy cat-rat things? easy to conquer with humans.. a few other races too are just cakewalk... I can conquer them with a weaker force with humans... the skukens? brr... they are monsters...
For slukens I use 60 or even 80 troops placed on the planet all at once.
One time my 60 troop invasion was getting repelled (I think they had 20 or so sleuken troops... killed the whole bunch of mine, got reduced to ~5 defenders) so I followed it up with another 60...

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/3/2010 7:55:11 AM >

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Post #: 8

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/3/2010 8:26:44 AM

Fishman

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Race matters a lot indeed: Boskarans are the best, followed by the Mortalens. Kiadians are very good considering that they show absolutely zero signs of being fierce warriors, being far above average, even better than Dhayut. At the bottom of the heap are races like the Ugnari, the Zenox, and all the other obviously unfearsome races. Slukens are decent, but overrated, far from the ultimate warriors their blurb implies. Invading a planet full of Atuuks is unpleasant even though Atuuks themselves do not score as particularly fearsome warriors, simply because there are so freaking many of them. Damn Ewoks.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 9

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/3/2010 9:03:36 AM

taltamir

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Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Race matters a lot indeed: Boskarans are the best, followed by the Mortalens. Kiadians are very good considering that they show absolutely zero signs of being fierce warriors, being far above average, even better than Dhayut. At the bottom of the heap are races like the Ugnari, the Zenox, and all the other obviously unfearsome races. Slukens are decent, but overrated, far from the ultimate warriors their blurb implies. Invading a planet full of Atuuks is unpleasant even though Atuuks themselves do not score as particularly fearsome warriors, simply because there are so freaking many of them. Damn Ewoks.

I admit to not have enough experience with fair fights to get a good feel for most races... I could only tell you about 3 or 4 races... the rest are largely unknown to me as I have so far fought them with 60 of mine vs 1 to 5 of theirs... in my last game the home planet of the dhayut only had 4 troops on it when I conquered it with 60...
Frankly I hate having to click 2 times to build 1 troop, and I the AI should not have to overthink it...
its really simple:
1. 10% of colony taxes are used to maintain troops. how many? as many as it can afford... if the colony pays 1000 a year in taxes, then 100 credits a year go towards troop maintenance, if there are less troops, build more. if there are too many? reduce them at 1 troop per year until you are under that value. If your race and government mean a troop costs 5, then 100 credits buys 20 troops. if your race and government mean a troop costs 20, then it buys you 5 troops.

2. That value should be adjustable up and down just like taxes are.

3. The value should not be possible to push beyond 50% or below 5%

4. The AI should stick to 10%-30% as the global baseline depending on its aggressiveness and how you are behaving.

5. Only a few select planets should be set at 50%... those being your capital, planets with super luxury resources (loros fruit for example), and planets with ruins that give an empire wide bonus.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/3/2010 9:10:42 AM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 10

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/3/2010 9:33:19 AM

Fishman

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Scaling troops to colony value is not an entirely good picture, because defense is all or nothing. Either you defend, or you don't. For instance, the AI appears to do this: It will autorecruit for you...a single lousy troop...to defend some 2-bit pop-30 colony. Why is it bothering? 1 troop isn't going to stop ANYTHING, so may as well not hire anything at all. Alternatively, defend the planet at a loss: Someday the planet will not be 30 pop, but this does you no good if it isn't YOURS still. A garrison has a minimum size to be effective: If it is not worth defending it at that size, then it is not worth defending it at all!

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

5. Only a few select planets should be set at 50%... those being your capital, planets with super luxury resources (loros fruit for example), and planets with ruins that give an empire wide bonus.

50%? You jest. I've defended super-luxury resources at a LOSS. In a recent game, I found Loros near the warzone center of the galaxy. Do you know how many troops I had defending it in the face of constant, unceasing attack? 25000! Do you know why I NEEDED them? Because the AI was *STILL MANAGING TO LAND* even in the face of a COLOSSAL SPACE PORT, the only one I have ever built, a behemoth spaceport with over a million firepower. The thing was HUGE. It wasn't called a Colossal Space Port for nothing. It was so huge it not only blotted out the planet itself, but also overshadowed the gas giant it was orbiting!

This, of course, proves the AI is cheating: You couldn't actually invade such a planet if you were playing, because it would be impossible to click on the planet to order the invasion.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 11

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/3/2010 9:37:36 AM

taltamir

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I have never seen the AI do what you described...
by 25,000 troops? you mean you clicked 50,000 times? (right click the planet, then click on "build troop") because I find it hard to believe.
alright, it seems a troop of 100 readiness strength 100 produces overall strengh of 10,000... so how do you get 25,000 troops? I guess you mean a troop is a 1000 troops?

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/3/2010 9:48:56 AM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 12

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/3/2010 9:47:36 AM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I have never seen the AI do what you described...
by 25,000 troops? you mean you clicked 50,000 times? (right click the planet, then click on "build troop") because I find it hard to believe.

You can hire troops the faster way by opening up the "Troops" tab on the colony list, which lets you then hire a troop by clicking the button. As for the clicking, I taped the mouse against a fan and went for lunch.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 13

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/3/2010 9:51:05 AM

taltamir

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wow... just wow.
Well, that certainly sounds like a "bug"... (the AI getting caught cheating is always a bug, I think the AI shouldn't need to cheat, but if it does cheat, then it must be invisibly)...

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 14

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/3/2010 9:50:00 PM

Dadekster

Posts: 141
Joined: 4/18/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I have never seen the AI do what you described...
by 25,000 troops? you mean you clicked 50,000 times? (right click the planet, then click on "build troop") because I find it hard to believe.
You can hire troops the faster way by opening up the "Troops" tab on the colony list, which lets you then hire a troop by clicking the button. As for the clicking, I taped the mouse against a fan and went for lunch.

Ok, that made me lol.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 15

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/3/2010 10:09:30 PM

Bloodly

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Joined: 4/14/2010
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Because the AI was *STILL MANAGING TO LAND* even in the face of a COLOSSAL SPACE PORT, the only one I have ever built, a behemoth spaceport with over a million firepower. The thing was HUGE. It wasn't called a Colossal Space Port for nothing. It was so huge it not only blotted out the planet itself, but also overshadowed the gas giant it was orbiting!

This is a flaw of sorts with the end-game stuff. Everything becomes obscenely difficult to outright kill between 60% damage reduction, repairs parts every two seconds, mass amounts of powerful armour taking the damage before anything important(And thus being resealed as fast as you kill it), massive shields with massive regeneration, and significant miss chance to boot. This is why the 'rush them in' becomes more and more necessary-it becomes less and less possible to punch through as time goes on.

(in reply to Dadekster)

Post #: 16

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/3/2010 10:32:42 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
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its equally easy to put weapons as it is to put shields.
also, I have never seen the AI make such mega bases...
a fleet with a decent amount of plasma thunderbolt MX torpedoes will reduce anything to smoldering ruin.

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I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 17

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/4/2010 4:49:31 AM

jam3

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I think a planet should just have an inherent defense force = to say 3 or so troops. They should be free and troops you buy should need upkeep, you should also need 3 to 1 to win on the offensive.

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Post #: 18

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/4/2010 7:33:47 AM

taltamir

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Joined: 4/2/2010
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there is no need to make things TOO hard...
The idea with having all planters automatically recruit troops to a 10% of their tax means that every planet has a sizeable force... Conquering planet by planet will cause attrition, and might require that you strip massive portions of your empire from troops. Which is very "cool" when you think about the sheer scale of the warfare involved...

planets shouldn't be uninvadable, and if some of the suggestions made here were incorporated planets would be a huge and PITA undertaking to invade, near impossible, and require massive effort and massive amounts of troop from hundreds of worlds to take one damn planet... it would take forever to wage war.

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I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

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Post #: 19

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/4/2010 7:52:04 AM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

there is no need to make things TOO hard...

As opposed to too easy, with an AI that doesn't do its damn job?

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

The idea with having all planters automatically recruit troops to a 10% of their tax means that every planet has a sizeable force...

No, it means LARGE planets have sizeable forces, MAYBE, but SMALL planets have insignificant forces not worth the bother and upkeep to recruit in the first place. Garrisons have a minimum effectiveness size. Anything smaller than that, namely, about the size of a transport or two, is not worth the upkeep to hire in the first place!

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

planets shouldn't be uninvadable, and if some of the suggestions made here were incorporated planets would be a huge and PITA undertaking to invade, near impossible, and require massive effort and massive amounts of troop from hundreds of worlds to take one damn planet... it would take forever to wage war.

That actually sounds rather realistic. Have you seen what a major hassle it is just to invade a backwards Middle Eastern country? On the other hand, if invasions become sadistically difficult, rather like it is in real life, bombardment may start sounding more attractive.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 20

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/4/2010 8:02:33 AM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

there is no need to make things TOO hard...
As opposed to too easy, with an AI that doesn't do its damn job?

Yes, exactly as opposed to too easy. things are too easy, there is no need to make them too hard. Some of the suggestions here are terrible and would make things insanely difficult, but not REAL difficulty but "fake difficulty"... it would just make things tedious.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

The idea with having all planters automatically recruit troops to a 10% of their tax means that every planet has a sizeable force...
No, it means LARGE planets have sizeable forces, MAYBE, but SMALL planets have insignificant forces not worth the bother and upkeep to recruit in the first place. Garrisons have a minimum effectiveness size. Anything smaller than that, namely, about the size of a transport or two, is not worth the upkeep to hire in the first place!

1. Transports can pick up troops from those planets, so it is worth it.
2. Not every WORTHLESS BACKWATER planet needs a huge and massive garrison to make it invasion proof... it should be easy as pie to invade such worlds

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

planets shouldn't be uninvadable, and if some of the suggestions made here were incorporated planets would be a huge and PITA undertaking to invade, near impossible, and require massive effort and massive amounts of troop from hundreds of worlds to take one damn planet... it would take forever to wage war.
That actually sounds rather realistic. Have you seen what a major hassle it is just to invade a backwards Middle Eastern country? On the other hand, if invasions become sadistically difficult, rather like it is in real life, bombardment may start sounding more attractive.

First, in regards to IRL
1. for your example, it was easy as pie to invade those countries, they folded quickly. having a few casualties that are blown out of proportion in the press is a different thing.
2. the surge worked wonders, sending more troops works... and we are still at a tiny fraction of our actual capacity.
3. do we really need to go on that kind of tangent?

Second, in regards to the game.
1. **** realism. You want realism? there is no such thing as warp, the reach of lasers is "anywhere within a star system", "there is no sound in space", and I got a dayjob instead of being the megalomaniac conquerer of galaxies. (among many other issues)
Realism should only be given a sufficient nod to to avoid breaking suspension of disbelief.
2. You should not need to mobilize troops from hundreds of worlds to conquer one.
3. If you DO require mobilizing troops from hundreds of worlds to invade one, then how the hell would you invade anything if you only have 50 planets or less? how would the AI ever invade anything?
the answer is they could not and would not.
4. The troops do use bombardment... putting "nuclear exterminators" on a space ship and nuking everything on the planet dead is completely different to using conventional bombardment tactics, which your troops obviously use.
5. I am not spending 3 weeks of IRL time micromanaging the conquering of one pitiful 5 planet alien empire if I have a 100 planet empire. Sorry but it is not happening.
AI should invade more (invade you, and invade for you when you enable automation), and should keep a slightly larger basic garrison, and maybe make troop pods take up more space (so you have less troops per ship)... but don't go too far on those. Don't implement even half the "features" suggested in this thread since they would ruin the game.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/4/2010 8:05:06 AM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 21

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/4/2010 12:10:04 PM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Yes, exactly as opposed to too easy. things are too easy, there is no need to make them too hard. Some of the suggestions here are terrible and would make things insanely difficult, but not REAL difficulty but "fake difficulty"... it would just make things tedious.

There are two kinds of difficulty in the world: Easy, and hard. If it can be done, it's easy. Otherwise, it's hard.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

1. Transports can pick up troops from those planets, so it is worth it.

Actually, it's not. What happens is that you tell the transport to load up. It goes to this minor ****hole planet. It picks up 1 troop. Do you have any idea how annoying it is to load a 20 pod assault ship ONE TROOP AT A TIME?!? If these planets were simply completely undefended, "load at nearest planet" would instead find a proper place to load up at.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

2. Not every WORTHLESS BACKWATER planet needs a huge and massive garrison to make it invasion proof... it should be easy as pie to invade such worlds

This logic is exactly why I don't make it so. You would THINK so, but then you go and land smack in the middle of Hell as your troops unload onto what is supposed to be an easy undefended planet only to be slaughtered as there are 500 legions down there. Why are they there? Well, they're waiting for their dropship to come and pick them up, duh.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

4. The troops do use bombardment... putting "nuclear exterminators" on a space ship and nuking everything on the planet dead is completely different to using conventional bombardment tactics, which your troops obviously use.

What are they bombarding with, then? They don't seem to gain an actual BENEFIT for possession of total air superiority, as would realistically be the case, so they aren't receiving orbital support from your space fleet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

5. I am not spending 3 weeks of IRL time micromanaging the conquering of one pitiful 5 planet alien empire if I have a 100 planet empire. Sorry but it is not happening.

I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

AI should invade more (invade you, and invade for you when you enable automation), and should keep a slightly larger basic garrison, and maybe make troop pods take up more space (so you have less troops per ship)... but don't go too far on those.

The problem with this concept is that it is a directly opposed arms race. Clearly, what we need are empire-level controls for determining exactly how much we should betroopen a planet, so that we don't have to micromanage how troopenacious we wish to make a planet. Heck, even LEI had a better control for this: You could designate how far you wished a planet to be betroopened, and the AI would take over from there, making sure that the planet remained appropriately betroopened. Then if I wish to betroopen a planet with 500 legions, the automation will make sure it remains so, recruiting replacements when some fall in combat or are removed by transports, and I can be confident that the planet will always be properly betroopened.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 22

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/4/2010 12:59:30 PM

Rustyallan

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Some thoughts from reading this thread.

Invasion difficulty slider.
This will raise/lower the cost of troops.� When you feel invasions are too easy, move the slider and AI empires get cheaper troops and start maintaining more of them at each planet

Designated troop centers.
Sure, every planet can raise troops, but we should be able to designate a gathering point for them where troopships can pick them up for invasions instead of picking up one...at...every...planet...

Global/planetary garrison controls.
Designate an empire default for garrison levels and be able to edit it at a planetary level. This could be similar to taxes with a checkbox for the AI to manage garrison levels based on various factors which could include population, starport level, development level, rare resource, and invasion difficulty level. Any excess forces above the designated garrison are sent off to the nearest troop center.

< Message edited by Rustyallan -- 5/4/2010 1:14:33 PM >

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 23

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/4/2010 1:02:57 PM

taltamir

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Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

What are they bombarding with, then? They don't seem to gain an actual BENEFIT for possession of total air superiority, as would realistically be the case, so they aren't receiving orbital support from your space fleet.

Obviously "troops" is a combination of airplanes, tanks, ships, soldiers, etc etc etc.
What you think troops means soldiers? it even has a picture of a tank.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Rustyallan)

Post #: 24

RE: Invasion of AI Planets too easy - please change - 5/4/2010 1:09:59 PM

Fishman

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Doesn't matter what the troops consist of, they're clearly not SPACESHIPS that can bombard people FROM ORBIT, so they are not bombarding. Shelling your opponents with trooper artillery is not the same as bombardment within the context of the game. Although given how many people are killed in a troop fight, one can conclude they're clearly going at each other with some pretty heavy stuff.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 25