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RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5

 
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RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 12:24:53 PM   
Canute0

 

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quote:

* Engage when attacked
* Engage nearby targets (within approx 2000 screen pixels)

This is self defence, this allways should happen/active.

quote:

* Engage targets in the same system

If i want that a ship attack anything in the system, i would give a Patrol system command.

But more important is, the AI never should overwrite ANY Player command.
We wouldn't have these repair,refuel issues if player commands got higher priotity then any AI commands.

My idea about AI commands
- Patrol System with 2 or more colonies
- Patrol System with 2 or more Mining Stations
- Patrol Colonies without Starports.
- Patrol Mining Stations
- Patrol Resort Bases
- Escort Const. Ship

Freighter dont need escorts. During the flight nothing should happen, just at the destination.

Any idea when 1.05 comes out ?

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 31
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 1:51:55 PM   
jscott991


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.
I don't really see this as a problem: It is by NO means a condition unique to you, the player. This is roughly the equivalent in Dominions of finding a particularly tasty independent province capable of making mages in the magics your nation lacks. Very nice, and significantly affects your gameplan, but at the same time, it is not a condition that is unique to a specific player, and can't even really be considered rare.


There are several problems.

1. It ruins the early game. In fact, it eliminates it. Once you find one of these colonies that doubles or triples your colonizable planets, the gloves are off. The game is simply colony ship spamming. And, it's like a cancer; the problem gets worse and worse. As Securans colonize worlds, you can suddenly build more Securan colony ships, taking over every desert planet. To me, it seems pretty clear that the early game is supposed to closer resemble the period when you can only colonize continental planets (or whatever).

2. It makes colonization techs pointless. In fact, they are the most pointless techs in the game. I've never had to use them. I am always able to colonize hostile worlds long before I get to the proper tech level. The first colonization upgrade is buried deep in the tech tree. Even crashing every tech to get to it takes a long time; by that time, you are bound to have found at least one alien race or one alien colony ship; typically, I've found a lot more. And I only play with rare alien races.

3. Regardless of whether the AI CAN do it, he doesn't. When I spam colony ships to take over desert and marsh worlds, I leave every AI empire in the dust in terms of colonization and population. The only thing that saves them from being obliterated is my sense of "fair" play (I usually stop colonizing in order to actually enjoy a late game period with some mediocre AI empires). I doubt other players are being that generous and that is what keeps spawning the "AI can't colonize" threads.

Polygot empire advantages are way out of proportion to any disadvantage you would have ruling over a mishmash of races. I think they should be toned down. The devs already targeted one of them (racial bonuses), but they missed the one that actually breaks the game in more ways.

Fix this, please. It should be more "balanced." Or, better yet, it should be taken out of the game altogether.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 32
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 2:03:41 PM   
Astax

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline 		Well one fine solution would be to introduce new type of Construction Component that can produce ships and colony ships. All other ship yards cannot make colony ships. This component would be 1) Expensive, 2) VERY large.  You would have to put it on a Large Spaceport. I know that now colonies make colony ships, not space ports, but bear ("\(-.-)/") with me.  Your home world would start with such a space port.  But to build one on a new planet would be difficult and time consuming.  Maybe even make it require certain amount of population.  That way when you get a new race you would have to make this spaceport in order to colonize the new planets. And once you build one and colonize your first new planet like an ocean, you can't turn around and build another large spaceport right away.  This I feel is a good fix. But it will be a bit difficult getting the AI to work with this.  So some programming required :)

Let me know how you feel about this jscott991, and others.

(in reply to jscott991)
Post #: 33
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 2:32:01 PM   
jscott991


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Status: offline 		That's a pretty good solution.

(in reply to Astax)
Post #: 34
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 2:54:52 PM   
Kruos


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quote:

Well one fine solution would be to introduce new type of Construction Component that can produce ships and colony ships. All other ship yards cannot make colony ships. This component would be 1) Expensive, 2) VERY large. You would have to put it on a Large Spaceport. I know that now colonies make colony ships, not space ports, but bear ("\(-.-)/") with me. Your home world would start with such a space port. But to build one on a new planet would be difficult and time consuming. Maybe even make it require certain amount of population. That way when you get a new race you would have to make this spaceport in order to colonize the new planets. And once you build one and colonize your first new planet like an ocean, you can't turn around and build another large spaceport right away. This I feel is a good fix. But it will be a bit difficult getting the AI to work with this. So some programming required :)

Let me know how you feel about this jscott991, and others.


It could be a good solution but, as you said, not so easy to integrate because of the additionnal AI programming work. Anyway, every modifications or tweaks will need a little work on the AI, so...

< Message edited by Kruos -- 5/20/2010 2:56:28 PM >

(in reply to jscott991)
Post #: 35
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 4:17:56 PM   
Stardog


Posts: 93
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From: Hickory N.C.
Status: offline 		ASTAX

That was very nicely thought out and I second it.! BUT As You & Kruos has stated could this be done &/or can the AI handle it.? Matrix/Code Force seem to be going in the right direction with the game.

Can't wait for 105 !!!.. Nice changes/add in's Erik!!..

WM

< Message edited by Stardog -- 5/20/2010 4:19:34 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Kruos)
Post #: 36
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 4:41:36 PM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kruos

quote:

I am pretty sure this is an intended. The documentation even TELLS you about it... yes, finding certain species and gaining them for your empire is awesome, and is a priority.
I like that mechanic and wouldn't want it "addressed".
Instead of the typical "terraforming" tech rush every other 4X space game has, you are required to find unique races... with them giving you the ability to colonize deserts and marshes early, and ice, volcanic, and ocean at all.


Yes it is intended. Yes it is a nice feature of the game. But in my opinion some tweaking is needed here, because as it is designed, with default sliders, colonization tech are pretty useless.

The fact of removing the colonization ability would not remove the interest of exploring and colonizing other race, you would still gain the racial bonus which is nice and a great feature, but not the ability to colonize, that's all.

Maybe just add an option... :)


do you have ideas for specific tweaks that will not diminish the unique flavor of distant worlds?

_____________________________

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(in reply to Kruos)
Post #: 37
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 4:55:44 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canute

quote:

* Engage when attacked
* Engage nearby targets (within approx 2000 screen pixels)

This is self defence, this allways should happen/active.

quote:

* Engage targets in the same system

If i want that a ship attack anything in the system, i would give a Patrol system command.

But more important is, the AI never should overwrite ANY Player command.
We wouldn't have these repair,refuel issues if player commands got higher priotity then any AI commands.

My idea about AI commands
- Patrol System with 2 or more colonies
- Patrol System with 2 or more Mining Stations
- Patrol Colonies without Starports.
- Patrol Mining Stations
- Patrol Resort Bases
- Escort Const. Ship

Freighter dont need escorts. During the flight nothing should happen, just at the destination.

Any idea when 1.05 comes out ?



Actually we need a guard/defend command.

-Guard/Defend planet: The ship is assigned to defend a specific planet. The ship will not leave orbit of this planet for ANY reason. The ship will attack and drive off (but not chase) any enemy or pirate vessel that gets within X distance of the guarded planet.
-Guard/defend station: Same as with a planet, only this time the ship is on station with a base and won't leave it for any reason. However it will attack any hostile that gets close to the base.
-Escort: This mission currently exists.

This allows a player to assign a defensive fleet to a high value target and not have to worry about it flying off to chase after a pirate frigate when an enemy assault force is bearing down on the high value target. These player assigned missions should never be overridden by the AI for any reason. Refueling would take place at the planet that is guarded, or at the closest refuelling point (in the case of a station without refueling capability) and the ships should immediately return to guard duty after refuelling.

_____________________________

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'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Canute0)
Post #: 38
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:15:19 PM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canute
But more important is, the AI never should overwrite ANY Player command.

this is where you are totally and utterly wrong. you are talking about principle here but its a misguided principle. the player should have the option to FORCE a command, but otherwise the AI should take over in certain specific cases.

Let me give you a real example from the game before auto-refuel was implemented.
I order my ship to attack an enemy base. It goes and starts firing, it fires, fires fires, and runs out of fuel. without fuel it CANNOT FIRE. my command to it was "attack" so it "attacks" by just sitting there on top of the enemy and getting shot at until it dies. too bad so sad.
with auto refuel it will break to refuel when it runs out, then RESUME the last order I gave it, coming back to fight... at lower tech levels this means that it could do several round trips before blowing up a space base, and that is better then the alternative of micro managing the whole thing.

those auto abilities are there by player demand and they are there because they are necessary. The game mechanics are such that you NEED them to avoid horribly tedious micro-management. Now, they DO need a little bit of tweaking and there SHOULD be a way to overrule those, such as ordering a ship to go somewhere and do something DESPITE having no fuel.

BTW, the AI doesn't actually overwrites your command, it pauses your order and SAVES it, then goes to refuel, then RESUMES the command you gave it. so your command is not gone, it is carried out. the complaint was "the AI is so dumb, I tell it to kill something, it flies up to it and just sits there because its too dumb to know that it needs fuel to FIRE ITS WEAPONS! ARRG! it should go refuel automatically and then come back here and kill what I told it to kill"... so the developers listened and created an auto-refuel function that does EXACTLY that. could be it tweaked a little to be more smart? certainly, and that is one of the things that have been confirmed for 1.05

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/20/2010 5:18:33 PM >

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(in reply to Canute0)
Post #: 39
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:18:40 PM   
Bartje

 

Posts: 308
Joined: 4/27/2010
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		Cheaper / earlier colonization tech ?

To offset the advantage multi racial empires get.

Also; Give homogenity benefits in the sense of political unity to empires that have a single or only a few races. (max 2??)

The more diverse a group gets the more conflicts of interest will take place.

Diverse groups and multi racial empires (Austria-Hungary anyone?) Have a tendency to be powder kegs. Perhaps certain factions can attempt to claim independence spawning new empires? Perhaps they can be incited?

Unhappiness should be more severe in such empires as well. (perhaps less so in a democracy / republic but seperatism should be more of an issue then)



I think these solutions wouldn't require an AI rewrite nor would they really alter the game that much. (AI would need to learn to aim for colonization tech though!)

the early continental only stage doesn't really work anyway. Diversity vs Homogenous would be a nice mechanic to use here I think.



EDIT: Another balanced way would be to diminish the racial bonus a race gives based on population percentage.

playing with humans you would thus have your bonus depending on how what the percentage of humans is in your empire.

Large multi racial empires would then receive many weak bonusses making them well rounded while large single race empires would receive one strong racial bonus.


Eitherway I still feel the colony tech should be cheaper.

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/20/2010 5:54:02 PM >

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 40
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:24:35 PM   
jscott991


Posts: 530
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline 		Bartje makes a good point.

If colony-spamming is the direction we want the game to go in (or, actually stay in, since the game already is all about colony spamming), then colonization techs should be made cheaper and should come earlier in the process.

There is no reason for them to come so late in the tech tree when they are essentially made obsolete within the first 5 years of the game by finding just a colony or two of another race.

< Message edited by jscott991 -- 5/20/2010 5:25:51 PM >

(in reply to Bartje)
Post #: 41
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:32:03 PM   
ASHBERY76


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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991
For example, if I'm playing as humans, I can only colonize continental planets. This severely limits the number of colonies I can establish and makes the game challenging (in a good way) by giving me a typical growth curve (small empire, gradually becoming medium, then large).

However, if I find a planet of Securans, all bets are off. I can now colonize desert planets. If I find a population of humans on a march planet, I can now colonize marshy planets. I've doubled and tripled my colony totals in an instant.


This is a big hole in design I am seeing too.

_____________________________


(in reply to jscott991)
Post #: 42
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:32:32 PM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Cheaper / earlier colonization tech ?
Also; Give homogenity benefits in the sense of political unity.


the cheaper/earlier colonization tech is a good idea.
I don't like the penalties for multi-racial empires... sounds like a really bad idea that will end up crippling large empires.

Now that I think about it, current colonization tech makes little sense.
level 1 - colonize continental (starting tech)
level 2 - colonize desert
level 3 - colonize marsh
level 4 - create 50 million colonists out of thin air when colonizing anything.

the level 4 tech should just go away. the earlier tech should reduce the population of the colony that constructs them (by picking up the people living there) rather then create them out of thin air.
level 2 and 3 should be acquired earlier and cheaper... much earlier and much cheaper.
although really, you can just do away with those entirely as well to further encourage people to go out there and conquer some aliens to get more planet types... would be neat if not ALL races could colonize continental (and later desert and marsh)... it would be interesting if each race had only 1 planet type it liked and can colonize. But then again, this might be going too far.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991
For example, if I'm playing as humans, I can only colonize continental planets. This severely limits the number of colonies I can establish and makes the game challenging (in a good way) by giving me a typical growth curve (small empire, gradually becoming medium, then large).

However, if I find a planet of Securans, all bets are off. I can now colonize desert planets. If I find a population of humans on a march planet, I can now colonize marshy planets. I've doubled and tripled my colony totals in an instant.


This is a big hole in design I am seeing too.


thats not a design hole, thats a great thing... you are encouraged to go out there and seek out and conquer alien races... I have played games where I didn't pay much attention to it and I did get stuck for a while unable to colonize most types... then I went out and made an effort to conquer the "right type" of planets...

btw, this does make an interesting effect that if you start on "harsh" home system as a human, your home planet is a desert... so you can colonize continental AND desert with your humans :P

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/20/2010 5:35:47 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Bartje)
Post #: 43
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:41:07 PM   
jscott991


Posts: 530
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline 		You don't have to "conquer" anyone. This doesn't encourage anything except building colony ships, which is what you are spamming anyway. There's no strategy involved: once these planets pop up on the expansion planner, click a button. It's automatic. No thought required.

All you have to do is colonize a planet with an existing population. These independent colonies are everywhere (even on rare; I shudder to think how many there are if you play with alien life being on a higher setting).

You can also find colony ships with other races. These are pretty common as well.

No conquest required. No war required. No strategy required.

< Message edited by jscott991 -- 5/20/2010 5:42:37 PM >

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 44
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:44:42 PM   
Bartje

 

Posts: 308
Joined: 4/27/2010
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		Agreed!

I think it would be a good thing to force empires to choose whether or not they will be multi or singe racial.

Such things bring instability and loyalty issues.


As for colony tech:

It would be a good thing if you could develop strategies based on minimizing the pop of another race in your empire by using your own race to colonize.



Eitherway though it makes sense to make colony techs more attainable early on.


It also makes sense to make colonizing more expensive, perhaps by making a development cycle only after which colonies become profitable?

Or something like inflation? 

(in reply to jscott991)
Post #: 45
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:46:35 PM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

You don't have to "conquer" anyone. This doesn't encourage anything except building colony ships, which is what you are spamming anyway. There's no strategy involved: once these planets pop up on the expansion planner, click a button. It's automatic. No thought required.

All you have to do is colonize a planet with an existing population. These independent colonies are everywhere (even on rare; I shudder to think how many there are if you play with alien life being on a higher setting).

You can also find colony ships with other races. These are pretty common as well.

No conquest required. No war required. No strategy required.


Firstly, I conquer independents instead of wasting my precious colony ships on them.
Secondly, You can, via a slider, increase or decrease the amount of independent populations... If you don't like this mechanic then decrease or even completely remove independents.. there you have it. Now you need to go to war and conquer planets from an EMPIRE to get a new colonization ability.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Agreed!

I think it would be a good thing to force empires to choose whether or not they will be multi or singe racial.

Such things bring instability and loyalty issues.


FORCING me to play the game YOUR way isn't a good idea at all.
There is a slider for independents... USE IT!

You are complaining because you turn research to minimal via a slider, but leave independents on a high value at the same time and don't like the result... well, use a different slider configuration then. Faster tech research could solve your issue with it (which is not an issue for me btw), so could setting independents to low.

People whining about "ridiculous bonuses" from having other races in your empire got those nerfed to uselessness. So now the ONLY benefits to having a multi species empire is that other species let you colonize more planet types. (I wish there was a checkbox to go to the old way of doing things, where you can get the full bonus for every single race)

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/20/2010 5:51:23 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 46
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:50:38 PM   
jscott991


Posts: 530
Joined: 4/23/2009
Status: offline 		I play with alien life set on the lowest standing. It's rare. They are still everywhere. I still have never had to use an advanced colony tech.

They are like space monsters, you can't get rid of them with the sliders and the devs definition of rare/few doesn't really mesh with my own.

Before shouting at people about the sliders, maybe you should be familiar with how they work.

< Message edited by jscott991 -- 5/20/2010 5:53:25 PM >

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 47
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:51:38 PM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I play with alien life set on the lowest standing. It's rare. They are still everywhere. I still have never had to use an advanced colony tech.

They are monsters, you can't rid of them and the devs definition of rare/few doesn't really mesh with my own.


I thought the lowest setting was "off"... there you have it, this is the problem. the lowest setting is "rare" instead of "none"... this needs to change. we need a "none" setting of independents.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to jscott991)
Post #: 48
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:52:05 PM   
Bartje

 

Posts: 308
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From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		Your not being forced to play anything my way.

Right now you can't stay single race even if you want to; you'l stumble across some independent planet or thing some time or later and the colony techs come way too late.

Even if you do remain single race based you will be at a disadvantage because the other races provide racial bonusses.


The only way to solve this balance issue is to either provide a malus for multi racial empires or a bonus for single race empires.

Another balanced way would be to diminish the racial bonus a race gives based on population percentage. (right now you always have your full racial bonus right??)
 
playing with humans you would thus have your bonus depending on how what the percentage of humans is in your empire.

Large multi racial empires would then receive many weak bonusses making them well rounded while large single race empires would receive one strong racial bonus.


Eitherway I still feel the colony tech should be cheaper.


And why do you disagree that large multi-racial empires should have stability issues? It has so much historical precedent! ????



< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/20/2010 5:55:38 PM >

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 49
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:54:34 PM   
jscott991


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I play with alien life set on the lowest standing. It's rare. They are still everywhere. I still have never had to use an advanced colony tech.

They are monsters, you can't rid of them and the devs definition of rare/few doesn't really mesh with my own.


I thought the lowest setting was "off"... there you have it, this is the problem. the lowest setting is "rare" instead of "none"... this needs to change. we need a "none" setting of independents.


The only thing you can actually turn off in this game are pirates. And if you couldn't do that, I wouldn't play it at all.

Everything else is a false choice. I've actually turned monsters on a higher setting than the lowest and noticed only a very marginal difference.

Independent colonies are the same way. The lowest setting isn't very low at all. You still find them early and often enough to disregard all colony tech.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 50
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:57:36 PM   
Bartje

 

Posts: 308
Joined: 4/27/2010
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		I just oppose the whole diversity of races is good vibe here.

Diversity is strong but can also be weak and this isn't mirrored.


Divide et Imperia or Divide and Conquer ---> This is easier for multi racial empires and should be so in DW
 

Right now everyone just ends up like a nice politically correct melting pot  (regardless of settings)


Diversity of races should be a strategical choice you make; not one that is made for you!

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/20/2010 5:59:13 PM >

(in reply to jscott991)
Post #: 51
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 5:57:51 PM   
taltamir

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Your not being forced to play anything my way.

Right now you can't stay single race even if you want to; you'l stumble across some independent planet or thing some time or later and the colony techs come way too late.

Even if you do remain single race based you will be at a disadvantage because the other races provide racial bonusses.

The only way to solve this balance issue is to either provide a malus for multi racial empires or a bonus for single race empires.

1. you call it a problem, I don't see any.
2. balance against what? you can't just arbitrarily call it balance as if that makes it ok... for example "level 1 shields are not balanced vs level 10 shields, level 10 shields are better in every possible way" is an example where imbalance is good and intentional and FUN! while "torpedoes are awesome to the point that there is no reason to ever use a laser instead of a torpedo" is an example where imbalance in unintentional, it is bad, and it is not fun.
3. you are the one who brought up the forcing people. I say it should be a slider option.
4. there should NOT be any penalties to mutli-racial empires and no benefits to being racially pure. I play this game to rule over the galaxy, not simulate the nazi party. I don't care if you think its realistic or not, I want and like and enjoy multi-racial empires and I think they should provide bonuses compared to single race empires.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/20/2010 6:00:03 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Bartje)
Post #: 52
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:00:41 PM   
Bartje

 

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quote:

4. there should NOT be any penalties to mutli-racial empires and no benefits to being racially pure. I play this game to rule over the galaxy, not simulate the nazi party. I don't care if you think its realistic or not, I want and like and enjoy multi-racial empires and I think they should provide bonuses compared to single race empires.


I am not talking about the Nazi party and I resent that immature comment



I am talking about the problem of having different ethnicities, cultures & religions not about a single master race.

I am not advocating that any race is superior by default or should be so.



Again; Diversity has its strenghts as well as weaknesses.

Again; Balance is the issue of Diversity of inhabitants vs single race imperium

The same is true for homogenous empires. They miss out on diverse racial bonusses and abilities.



I am not advocating anything extreme here; get over your god complex




< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/20/2010 6:04:30 PM >

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 53
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:02:10 PM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I play with alien life set on the lowest standing. It's rare. They are still everywhere. I still have never had to use an advanced colony tech.

They are monsters, you can't rid of them and the devs definition of rare/few doesn't really mesh with my own.


I thought the lowest setting was "off"... there you have it, this is the problem. the lowest setting is "rare" instead of "none"... this needs to change. we need a "none" setting of independents.


The only thing you can actually turn off in this game are pirates. And if you couldn't do that, I wouldn't play it at all.

Everything else is a false choice. I've actually turned monsters on a higher setting than the lowest and noticed only a very marginal difference.

Independent colonies are the same way. The lowest setting isn't very low at all. You still find them early and often enough to disregard all colony tech.


then we need the ability to turn off more things. I also would love to turn off monsters completely. (I have already turned off pirates). Actually, 2 new options for space monsters:
1. off except for "events" (aka, find keltors in a ruin, or find them in that research station with galactic history)
2. off completely (they simply can't be found... sure the existed once according to story, but have since died out)

as for independents... ok, that needs a "none" setting as well.

And yes, I love the ability to turn off pirates and I always do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bartje
I am talking about the problem of having different ethnicities not about a single master race.


And I am saying that isn't a problem, its awesome and it fun and it how I want things to remain.
It was ALREADY nerfed a lot and I want that nerfing to be undone! (the nerf being that it used to be that if you got above X million of a certain race you got a bonus... now you get your own race full bonus, and a pro-rated bonus for other races depending on how much of your empire they are, doubled, capped at 100% bonus (at 50% of pop). So a race that is 3% of your empire provides 6% of their bonus to you. which is too little to matter.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/20/2010 6:06:05 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Bartje)
Post #: 54
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:03:54 PM   
Joram

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bartje

Cheaper / earlier colonization tech ?
Also; Give homogenity benefits in the sense of political unity.


the cheaper/earlier colonization tech is a good idea.
I don't like the penalties for multi-racial empires... sounds like a really bad idea that will end up crippling large empires.

Now that I think about it, current colonization tech makes little sense.
level 1 - colonize continental (starting tech)
level 2 - colonize desert
level 3 - colonize marsh
level 4 - create 50 million colonists out of thin air when colonizing anything.

the level 4 tech should just go away. the earlier tech should reduce the population of the colony that constructs them (by picking up the people living there) rather then create them out of thin air.
level 2 and 3 should be acquired earlier and cheaper... much earlier and much cheaper.
although really, you can just do away with those entirely as well to further encourage people to go out there and conquer some aliens to get more planet types... would be neat if not ALL races could colonize continental (and later desert and marsh)... it would be interesting if each race had only 1 planet type it liked and can colonize. But then again, this might be going too far.
...


To be honest, I always liked the system in some games where colonization ability is more based on temperature and atmosphere. Since that would require a major re-write though I could think of some alternate ideas though I'm sure this has been said before.

Everyone should be able to colonize continental/desert/marsh. I think the distinction not to be able to colonize these is quite arbitrary currently and as many people have pointed out, can lead to a very unbalanced game. That leaves ocean/ice/barren/dead worlds left and if you want to really get sci-fi, why not throw in the ability to colonize gas worlds too (floating cities anyone?).

For those 'special' planets, some races could still have their bonuses to inhabit it right away, that's fine and having those races as part of your empire would give you that ability too. But then the research tree would be something like:
level 2 ocean
level 3 barren
level 4 ice
level 5 dead
level 6 gas
(you can feel free to rearrange and consolidate the order - this is just conceptual)

The distinction between the worlds could still be their usability such that if you research the ability to colonize ocean worlds, you may perhaps only get to inhabit x% of it, unless you are those fishy people in which case it still is 100%. The resources can perhaps be varied a bit more so there is some reason to colonize a dead world. Perhaps their is some special resource that gets created when their is no atmosphere filtering out the radiation. But the usability of such a world would still be quite low otherwise unless you want to expand the tech tree even further and have different levels (ala Armada). Where at first you can barely use the planet and the next level increases the usability of the planet.

Anyway, this is an idea which I think could be implemented in the current system and regardless of this specific idea, I do agree this aspect of the game can use some updating to improve the game.

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 55
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:08:46 PM   
Bartje

 

Posts: 308
Joined: 4/27/2010
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		I agree with that idea about usability that sounds like a great way to deal with it!


Just let everyone colonize everything barring some extreme planet types and give us the choice of using tech or various races to expand the colony and get it up to full potential.

This would also implement the strategic choice of multi racial empires vs homogenous empires as well as making the system more plausible!

We already have the development variable too! This would just need a slight rework!

Planet development would be a private sector thing dependent on tech.

Maintaining colonies everywhere on the lowest development level would cost the private sector lots of cash and they might decide to abandon the planet if they are making a loss.

Problem solved!

Kudos to you sir Joram!

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/20/2010 6:11:12 PM >

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 56
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:13:04 PM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

Everyone should be able to colonize continental/desert/marsh. I think the distinction not to be able to colonize these is quite arbitrary currently and as many people have pointed out, can lead to a very unbalanced game. That leaves ocean/ice/barren/dead worlds left and if you want to really get sci-fi, why not throw in the ability to colonize gas worlds too (floating cities anyone?).

I was just thinking this the other day... a race of gas balloon that live in gas giants.
this would solve the late game problems with fuel generation... you need a ridiculous amount of gas miners to produce enough hydrogen and to a lesser extent calson, but the AI doesn't build them even on full auto... I have taken to mass build-ups of those manually... as well as redesigned my ships... commercial ships use quantom reactor @ 4.85 units of fuel per 1000 energy, its the best reactor for calson... some bases use novacore reactors at 2.5 units of hydrogen per 1000 energy, but 1/4 the energy/space ratio of the reactor one before it, which is 2.59 units of hydrogen per 1000 energy...

Anyways, colonizing gas giants with a gas giant race would be totally awesome both mechanically and from a scifa perspective (its not science fiction, its science fantasy)

quote:

For those 'special' planets, some races could still have their bonuses to inhabit it right away, that's fine and having those races as part of your empire would give you that ability too. But then the research tree would be something like:
level 2 ocean
level 3 barren
level 4 ice
level 5 dead
level 6 gas
(you can feel free to rearrange and consolidate the order - this is just conceptual)


The idea to let colonize tech allow you to colonize more planet types is not a bad one... you could provide a bit of the balance people here are clamoring for that way without ruining the game (penalties for multi-racial empires would... especially because it would leave you to choose between nuking aliens to death and the resulting civil war and total war... or absorbing them into your empire and getting the penalties... so you get weaker the more aliens you conquer!)

Anyways, multiracial PLANETS already are worse then single race planets (any race will gave the whole planet the penalty to morale for being at war with their race)...

Anyways, back to your suggestion... allowing colony tech to colonize more planet types (not necessary gas and barren though) would provide an alternative to acquiring more races. its certainly a much better idea then penalties for multi-racial empires. although I am not sure it is needed.

quote:

Just let everyone colonize everything barring some extreme planet types and give us the choice of using tech or various races to expand the colony and get it up to full potential.

Interesting idea... so humans can colonize marshes right away for example, but their max population on those planets is capped fairly low... tech can then increase the max population level.

A way to work it is that each race has a "base" max pop for each planet type... so humans would have 25% for marshes, while another race might have 50%... then colonization tech would progressively increase that with each tech level (you could make it via smaller jumps, and have more colonization techs). So tech 2 colonization could be +10% to marsh and desert max population, +5% to continental, volcanic, ocean, and ice...

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/20/2010 6:19:20 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 57
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:16:43 PM   
Bartje

 

Posts: 308
Joined: 4/27/2010
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		You are thinking about penalties too literally.


I re-empathize:

Another balanced way would be to diminish the racial bonus a race gives based on population percentage. (right now you always have your full racial bonus right??)
 
playing with humans you would thus have your bonus depending on how what the percentage of humans is in your empire.

Large multi racial empires would then receive many weak bonusses making them well rounded while large single race empires would receive one strong racial bonus.



Hence you would get the strategic choice of going diverse or monogamous  

Both have advantages and disadvantages; very plausible I think.


Also: This doesn't mean you have to nuke every other race; just don't let them become a large part of your empire's total population.


And then perhaps at some point there's no avoiding become racially diverse.

But that's up to you, it's been your strategic choice.





< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/20/2010 6:19:51 PM >

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 58
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:21:53 PM   
taltamir

 

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline 		And I re-emphasize that the fact you no longer receive the full bonus to conquered populations is bad enough, making multi-racial empires effectively WORTHLESS with the exception of races that give the ability to colonize new planets. Your suggestion would FURTHER penalize it and make it EVEN WORSE... I do not like or want it...
you seem to be under the delusion that your ideas are perfect and that the only reason that someone will disagree with you is because they do not understand them. Please stop it.
I fully respect the notion that not everyone will agree with me, I grasp that you understand me and simply disagree with me. Please afford me the same courtesy... I FULLY UNDERSTAND what you are suggestion, I just think you are WRONG.
Now, that is not to say we can't argue on to why it is right or wrong... but realize that I UNDERSTAND what you offer and I just don't like it.

I think your attempt to "balance" racially pure empire with racially diverse ones is misguided, lets forget for a second about its unfortunate implications and look at it from an entirely gamist perspective...
it detracts from the game fun, its not how I want to play, and it would prove DISASTROUS because you currently MUST conquer alien species to win the game, so you WILL be penalized for every planet you conquer.
It is not a strategic choice to genocide or to conquer, and it shouldn't be one. I don't want to play such a game and I don't think you should "balance" conquest with genocide.

Finally, not all "balance" is good... balancing conquest with genocide is as fun and sensible as "balancing" level 1 shields with level 10... level 10 shields are SUPPOSED to be better in every single possible way. You are being rewarded for acquiring higher level tech... likewise, having more races in your empire rewards your hard work at collecting them (I intentionally go to war with races to conquer a few planets to add their species to my empire) and it should not be balanced with NOT conquering alien races.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/20/2010 6:28:32 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Bartje)
Post #: 59
RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:27:31 PM   
Bartje

 

Posts: 308
Joined: 4/27/2010
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		I am open to your ideas but I disagree that a multi-racial empire would be weaker if you scale racial bonuses based on population. (I am simply trying to understand your opposition & reach concensus)

For the largest part of the game the biggest race in your empire would be your starting race. Affording you that bonus for a long time.

It will gradually weaken if you choose to allow it too. This would be compensated by the bonusses of other races. As well as their colonization & development boosts.

Under the current assumptions if you stay single race based for example you will have a strong racial bonus but your ability to colonize and develop colonies would suffer for it.

It is a strategic trade off not a penalty to multi-racial empires that I want to see


Why do you think that multi-racial empires would fare worse in this scenario?


PS: I am not trying to attack you

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/20/2010 6:30:02 PM >

(in reply to taltamir)
Post #: 60
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