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RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:28:09 PM

Gargoil

Posts: 389
Joined: 1/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bartje

quote:

4. there should NOT be any penalties to mutli-racial empires and no benefits to being racially pure. I play this game to rule over the galaxy, not simulate the nazi party. I don't care if you think its realistic or not, I want and like and enjoy multi-racial empires and I think they should provide bonuses compared to single race empires.

I am not talking about the Nazi party and I resent that immature comment

I am talking about the problem of having different ethnicities, cultures & religions not about a single master race.

I am not advocating that any race is superior by default or should be so.

Again; Diversity has its strenghts as well as weaknesses.

Again; Balance is the issue of Diversity of inhabitants vs single race imperium

The same is true for homogenous empires. They miss out on diverse racial bonusses and abilities.

I am not advocating anything extreme here; get over your god complex

1) He did not say you called him a Nazi - calm down folks! He just said the gameplay would feel like that.
2) I do see a problem that to stay racial pure = genocide of all other races. It automatically follows.
3) Colony spamming with multi racial - this is due to cheap colony ships and "Free" 10m+ colonists.

(in reply to Bartje)

Post #: 61

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:32:25 PM

Bartje

Posts: 308
Joined: 4/27/2010
From: Netherlands
Status: offline

I dispute that staying racially single (pure is the wrong word I see the Nazi connection here

) means automatically the genocide of other races.

It means genocide if you go on a conquering spree and decide you don't want their population.

If so you can decide to subjugate them in stead.

Gift away their colonies

Abandon those planets

Many strategies to deal with it. Far from gaming genocide in my opinion.

Victory is also not necissarily achived through military means in the game so that cannot be the reason either.

I am also not saying that being racially single should always be the best option. It depends on whether or not you want your racial bonus to be as high as possible or if you want the bonus of another race to be higher by increasing their population in your empire.

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/20/2010 6:34:55 PM >

(in reply to Gargoil)

Post #: 62

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:32:52 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

I am open to your ideas butI disagree that a multi-racial empire would be weaker if you scale racial bonuses based on population.

Then you fail at math.
Currently you get X bonus for your starting race, and Y*(2*%pop) bonus for every other race (where 2*%pop caps out at 100%).
Your suggestion is to have X*%pop for the bonus of your starting race, and either no change to other races or simply Y*%pop (I am not clear on how you want that to change)...

lets say for now its the no change and its Y*2*%pop.
in an empire with multiple races, X > X*%pop AND Y*2*%pop > Y*%pop
Therefore X + Y*2*%pop > X*%pop + Y*%pop

If you say that it is Y*%pop then:
in an empire with multiple races, X>X*%pop
Therefore X + Y*2*%pop > X*%pop + Y*%pop

%pop is obviously less than or equal to 100% (aka, less than or equal to 1).

Basic math shows that your suggestion would make them weaker compared to how they are right now. Your suggestion is a NERF, to claim otherwise is insanity... math is very clear here, currently you have a certain power level, you suggest to REDUCE said power level.
And btw, they are already too weak compared to how they were in v1.00 of the game

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/20/2010 6:36:09 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Bartje)

Post #: 63

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:37:00 PM

Bartje

Posts: 308
Joined: 4/27/2010
From: Netherlands
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Did you take into account the colony bonusses and development bonusses those multi racial empires should have if colonization is altered / tweaked?

My feeling was that in that situation they would have a strategic advantage because the races native to certain environments would allow their colonies to develop at a lower cost.

This would make the private sector and state richer compared to a racially single empire which would need to invest more in said planets.

On the other hand: The bonus of the racially single would be stronger while the diverse would have weaker but also more bonusses.

Does it still compute then?

(I haven't done the math)

(My idea regarding bonus is to scale the bonus itself in relation to the amount of population of related race within the empire which includes the original empire race

so 1 M humans give bonus 100% being 100% of empire population
if 1M Human and 1 M Kiadan then both races give 50% of the full bonus)

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/20/2010 6:41:24 PM >

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 64

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:39:25 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gargoil

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bartje

quote:

4. there should NOT be any penalties to mutli-racial empires and no benefits to being racially pure. I play this game to rule over the galaxy, not simulate the nazi party. I don't care if you think its realistic or not, I want and like and enjoy multi-racial empires and I think they should provide bonuses compared to single race empires.

I am not talking about the Nazi party and I resent that immature comment

I am talking about the problem of having different ethnicities, cultures & religions not about a single master race.

I am not advocating that any race is superior by default or should be so.

Again; Diversity has its strenghts as well as weaknesses.

Again; Balance is the issue of Diversity of inhabitants vs single race imperium

The same is true for homogenous empires. They miss out on diverse racial bonusses and abilities.

I am not advocating anything extreme here; get over your god complex

1) He did not say you called him a Nazi - calm down folks! He just said the gameplay would feel like that.
2) I do see a problem that to stay racial pure = genocide of all other races. It automatically follows.
3) Colony spamming with multi racial - this is due to cheap colony ships and "Free" 10m+ colonists.

1. exactly
2. exactly.
3. I did suggest that colony ships would not magically create colonists...
colony ships should produce with 0 population in them and require passenger storage. They would then load up citizens (automatically) into their passenger storage before going to colonize a planet.

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Gargoil)

Post #: 65

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 6:41:28 PM

Bartje

Posts: 308
Joined: 4/27/2010
From: Netherlands
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2. again, I disagree for these reasons:

quote:

I dispute that staying racially single (pure is the wrong word I see the Nazi connection here ) means automatically the genocide of other races.

It means genocide if you go on a conquering spree and decide you don't want their population.

If so you can decide to subjugate them in stead.

Gift away their colonies

Abandon those planets

Many strategies to deal with it. Far from gaming genocide in my opinion.

Victory is also not necissarily achived through military means in the game so that cannot be the reason either.

I am also not saying that being racially single should always be the best option. It depends on whether or not you want your racial bonus to be as high as possible or if you want the bonus of another race to be higher by increasing their population in your empire.

1. I am happy you didn't then

Sorry for the implication.

3. I agree that creating colonists is somewhat fishy (I miss fishman!)

Perhaps this could be explained as cloning or something? Should be made plausible or removed I think.

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/20/2010 7:13:34 PM >

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 66

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 7:37:46 PM

Kruos

Posts: 129
Joined: 5/5/2010
From: France
Status: offline

Some great ideas here!

- I love the concept of continental/marshy/desert planet colonizable by everyone, with a cap depending of your races and your colonization tech. I think it is a very good idea to developp.

- I also love the concept of "war weariness increase" for multi racial empire at war with one of their own races. However, to avoid issues from mutli-racial empire at war with multi-racial empire, I suggest to limit this to native race only (war weariness increase if the native race of the empire you are at war with is one of your own races).

(in reply to Bartje)

Post #: 67

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 7:48:01 PM

taltamir

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Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kruos

Some great ideas here!

- I also love the concept of "war weariness increase" for multi racial empire at war with one of their own races. However, to avoid issues from mutli-racial empire at war with multi-racial empire, I suggest to limit this to native race only (war weariness increase if the native race of the empire you are at war with is one of your own races).

this already occurs exactly as you suggested.

quote:

Gift away their colonies

Abandon those planets

Many strategies to deal with it. Far from gaming genocide in my opinion.

Your claim of "many ways" doesn't hold water... so far you have suggested the following alternatives to genocide:
1. Gift it away (aka, don't conquer anything)... This is a 4x game, conquering is the whole point, the last thing I want to do is gift away all my colonies.
2. "Abandon" the colonies... there are two ways to do that:
a. all colonists are deleted and you can then colonize it... this is genocide hidden under a gamist solution.
b. abandon them to become "independent race"... this goes right back to "cannot conquer planets". The planet in question become a no-mans land that you cannot conquer... of course, the AI Would happily conquer them...

in reality there are only two possible results:
1. genocide - this sucks!
2. live with the penalties, which are inevitable... the game simply punishes you for every planet you conquer. - this sucks!

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/20/2010 7:52:35 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Kruos)

Post #: 68

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 10:08:03 PM

Joram

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Seriously guys, let it drop, your arguing is going to drown out everyone's suggestions. Just agree to disagree.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 69

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 10:18:28 PM

Kruos

Posts: 129
Joined: 5/5/2010
From: France
Status: offline

quote:

this already occurs exactly as you suggested.

Are you sure??? Sorry but I did not notice that...

If it already occurs like that it is great, but frankly I think it should be more highlighted in game, because after many wars in my games it was not at all obvious that it worked like that.

(in reply to Joram)

Post #: 70

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 10:50:38 PM

jscott991

Posts: 530
Joined: 4/23/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

Seriously guys, let it drop, your arguing is going to drown out everyone's suggestions.� Just agree to disagree.�

Yes, my original point is long lost: that the current system cheapens the colonization tech, floods the early game with colony ship spam, and makes finding these other races far too overpowering.

(in reply to Joram)

Post #: 71

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 10:54:56 PM

Gargoil

Posts: 389
Joined: 1/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

Seriously guys, let it drop, your arguing is going to drown out everyone's suggestions.� Just agree to disagree.�

Yes, my original point is long lost: that the current system cheapens the colonization tech, floods the early game with colony ship spam, and makes finding these other races far too overpowering.

Your post is not lost - as far as I can tell, the back and forth going on is specific to remedies suggested and evaluated in response to those very issues.

(in reply to jscott991)

Post #: 72

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/20/2010 11:41:01 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kruos

quote:

this already occurs exactly as you suggested.

Are you sure??? Sorry but I did not notice that...

If it already occurs like that it is great, but frankly I think it should be more highlighted in game, because after many wars in my games it was not at all obvious that it worked like that.

Well, its not technically part of war weariness.
double click the name of a planet, it has a breakdown of morale bonuses and penalties in that planet.
If you are at war with an empire of a certain race, then all planets which have that race take a hit to morale. The only effect of war weariness is that it decreases morale... so the two work in conjunction. If you are at war with the sucurean empire, then every planet without secureans will have, say, -20 morale due to war weariness. a planet with secureans will have -20 due to war weariness AND an additional -30 from "secureans being unhappy that we are at war with their race".

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Kruos)

Post #: 73

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 12:17:05 AM

Kruos

Posts: 129
Joined: 5/5/2010
From: France
Status: offline

Hmmm... thank for the ui tip taltamir, I will look better at it in my games.

Concerning the issue about colonization tech useless versus racial colonization ability, as said before, I think that the concept of allowing to colonize continental, desert and marshy planet directly from the start, and allowing to rise the population cap by tech or racial affinity is a very good one :

- independant colonies are still very interesting, because they rise your population cap for specific type of planets for which they have affinity
- colonization tech become usefull, and still have an interest even in the end game

The idea of specific colonization yard component, very large and needing a large spaceport, is also very good, and I think compatible with the concept below.

Both could greatly improve the game, in my opinion.

< Message edited by Kruos -- 5/21/2010 12:36:47 AM >

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 74

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 12:36:42 AM

taltamir

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Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kruos

Hmmm... thank for the ui tip taltamir, I will look better at it in my games.

Concerning the issue about colonization tech useless versus racial colonization ability, as said before, I think that the concept of allowing to colonize continental, desert and marshy planet directly from the start, and allowing to rise the population cap by tech or racial affinity is a very good one :

- independant colonies are still very interesting, because they rise your population cap for specific type of planets for which they have affinity
- colonization tech become usefull, and still have an interest even in the end game

I like it as well.
Especially if it would be combined with a "cloning ban" so to speak :P

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Kruos)

Post #: 75

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 12:28:08 PM

Wenla

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I play with alien life set on the lowest standing. It's rare. They are still everywhere. I still have never had to use an advanced colony tech.

They are monsters, you can't rid of them and the devs definition of rare/few doesn't really mesh with my own.

I thought the lowest setting was "off"... there you have it, this is the problem. the lowest setting is "rare" instead of "none"... this needs to change. we need a "none" setting of independents.

The only thing you can actually turn off in this game are pirates. And if you couldn't do that, I wouldn't play it at all.

Everything else is a false choice. I've actually turned monsters on a higher setting than the lowest and noticed only a very marginal difference.

Independent colonies are the same way. The lowest setting isn't very low at all. You still find them early and often enough to disregard all colony tech.

In one of my earlier game there was so big Kaltor nest (and it really was BIG!) that it/those eated my five over 10 ships fleets with ease. I left rest to multiply more...

I had turned pirates off and creatures to minimum.

< Message edited by Wenla -- 5/21/2010 12:38:13 PM >

_____________________________

Before you can define your strategy, you have to have a vision

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Post #: 76

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 12:31:34 PM

Barleyman

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Maybe the colonists should be recruited the same way troops are?

This would really tone down exploiting freshly subjucated species who wouldn't probably be too eager to sign up..

(in reply to Wenla)

Post #: 77

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 12:38:04 PM

Bartje

Posts: 308
Joined: 4/27/2010
From: Netherlands
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Kaltors can be mean!

Another option is to keep the tech that creates colonists but to keep it high up on the tech tree.

That way the techs that allow you to colonize certain planet types are available early while the get rich quick option for colonization is left for the later game when there won't be that many unsettled planets anyway.

How about that?

@ Taltamir:

I understand that you feel that the gameplay would be a bit genocidal in the conquest department of the game when you start to aim for non-inclusion of other races in your empire.

A solution to this would be the ability to release subjugated tributaries or vassals of said races including their planets. This way they should count towards your victory requirements as well as supplying you with taxes, resources and trade. (perhaps inventions too?)

Would such a solution solve these feelings?

In my opinion this would introduce a great deal of plausibility as well as strategy. (Fun fun fun!!)

Not only would colonization require a strategy there would also be the political option of forcing others to release vassals, the galaxy would consist of "sphere's of influence" as well as the existence of buffer states between major powers.

How would you�(all) feel about this idea? It does borrow from history and in it is included in one form or another in the Europa Universalis series as well.

I would like to see some more plausible, complex and fun galactic politics as well as internal

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/21/2010 1:54:49 PM >

(in reply to Barleyman)

Post #: 78

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 1:49:21 PM

Mowen

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About modding for translating the game to another language:

It will be great if we could have the strings of the user interface in a external resource file that is easily editable. For now, we can only translate the tutorials and the diplomacy dialogs (txt files) but there is nothing for the user interface probably because the strings are compiled in the main executable file. I do not know if it is possible to do that at this development stage.

Edit: copied to the wishlist post. This post can be removed.

< Message edited by Mowen -- 5/21/2010 3:53:06 PM >

(in reply to Bartje)

Post #: 79

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 3:59:12 PM

cmdrnarrain

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I just don't get all of this talk about extermination vs. not extermination??? Extermination has been part of the 4x from the beginning. In fact it is one of the 4x's. Get over it. Read Emperor Fred, the game is about fun and shanking a few toad men. Save the PC mumble jumbo for non-war game sites.

You do have a good point however, it would be pretty neat if planets spawned a bunch of colony ships as you nuked it as the population fled. It could explain why you find all of these abandoned colony ships. The hero's could save them. The rest of us would just have another fleet waiting with wrap inhibitors.

(in reply to Mowen)

Post #: 80

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 4:12:29 PM

Bartje

Posts: 308
Joined: 4/27/2010
From: Netherlands
Status: offline

Bwahahahahaha!��

Extermination should be an option yep but it shouldn't be mandatory. Sometimes genocide just feels wrong, that's what people are saying.

I say accomodate them. Genocide shouldn't be mandatory; some times draconian measures are cost effective other times suede gloves accomplish more.

Honey & fire.

< Message edited by Bartje -- 5/21/2010 4:15:16 PM >

(in reply to cmdrnarrain)

Post #: 81

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 4:36:13 PM

taltamir

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Joined: 4/2/2010
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quote:

A solution to this would be the ability to release subjugated tributaries or vassals of said races including their planets. This way they should count towards your victory requirements as well as supplying you with taxes, resources and trade. (perhaps inventions too?)

Would such a solution solve these feelings?

While it would absolve the genocide, it would result in something even worse... the inability to conquer large swaths of the galaxy, which are integral to a 4x game.
I'd rather annihilate all the aliens with my nuclear wrath then let them go "free" and "independent"... besides, it would not work mechanically, you spend all this effort conquering a planet, only to have to release it to be independent, then as an ind. it either becomes its own empire, or is absorbed by another empire almost immediately, you are just shuffling planets from one enemy to another without keeping them yourself.

I'll be "releasing" my subjects over their hot dead vaporized bodies!

First, exterminate in 4X does not mean genocide, it mean exterminate enemy empires... typically via CONQUEST.

Second, my argument isn't that you shouldn't be able to nuke all the aliens to sludge... my argument is that the notion to penalize you for having aliens in your empire means you are forcing me to choose between nuking them all to death or not conquering them at all and leaving them free. both are unacceptable.
I want the option to nuke without the game ruining me (currently it would), and I want the option to conquer without the game ruining me (currently there is no penalty for it, the suggestion I argue against is to penalize you for multi-species empire means it will)... its not that difficult and its completely standard 4X fare. you can nuke or you can conquer.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/21/2010 4:42:42 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Bartje)

Post #: 82

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 7:04:29 PM

Gargoil

Posts: 389
Joined: 1/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I want the option to nuke without the game ruining me (currently it would),

This is a tough thing to balance. Are enough of your citizens bloodthristy and xenophobic enough to support large scale....ah, I got to say it again, genocide? Perhaps they are, and if that is want some players want, so be it. I actually want it to be difficult to be so. And if I want to go down that path, I will need to deal with the difficulties it brings. Hey, how about for evil goverment types some secret police agents added to the intelligents screen for, ahem, dealing with disidents?

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I want the option to conquer without the game ruining me (currently there is no penalty for it, the suggestion I argue against is to penalize you for multi-species empire means it will)... its not that difficult and its completely standard 4X fare. you can nuke or you can conquer.

Agreed, right now, game is Working as Intended.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 83

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 7:13:14 PM

taltamir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gargoil

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I want the option to nuke without the game ruining me (currently it would),

This is a tough thing to balance. Are enough of your citizens bloodthristy and xenophobic enough to support large scale....ah, I got to say it again, genocide? Perhaps they are, and if that is want some players want, so be it. I actually want it to be difficult to be so. And if I want to go down that path, I will need to deal with the difficulties it brings. Hey, how about for evil goverment types some secret police agents added to the intelligents screen for, ahem, dealing with disidents?

they don't need to, they just need to be scared enough of my secret police. Also, we aren't talking death camps here, we are talking nuking enemy planets.

the current results of nuking is:
1. EVERYONE declares war on you.
2. Your empire splits in half in a civil war. (the other half becoming an AI empire with half your army, half your planets, half your wealth, and all your tech and maps).

Of course this should somewhat depend on your government... a totalitarian government should have an easier time doing it than a democracy.
Also, while I see democracies, republics, and maybe even monarchies declaring war on me for nuking someone else (pretty suicidal of them but meh)... having the dictatorships of the universe care that I am doing it seems more then a bit odd...

Although, personally I would not take the nuking option... this is more of a "should work" thing that I personally DON'T like to use, ever. I prefer to conquer them all then to nuke them dead. But I accept the argument some have made that it should be at least doable under certain conditions.

My main modus operandi is to conquer them all... which, as you and I agree, works as it should/intended. and should not be broken because some feel that conquering should penalize you.

< Message edited by taltamir -- 5/21/2010 7:18:41 PM >

_____________________________

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman.

(in reply to Gargoil)

Post #: 84

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 7:48:10 PM

Gargoil

Posts: 389
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gargoil

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I want the option to nuke without the game ruining me (currently it would),

This is a tough thing to balance. Are enough of your citizens bloodthristy and xenophobic enough to support large scale....ah, I got to say it again, genocide? Perhaps they are, and if that is want some players want, so be it. I actually want it to be difficult to be so. And if I want to go down that path, I will need to deal with the difficulties it brings. Hey, how about for evil goverment types some secret police agents added to the intelligents screen for, ahem, dealing with disidents?

they don't need to, they just need to be scared enough of my secret police. Also, we aren't talking death camps here, we are talking nuking enemy planets.

the current results of nuking is:
1. EVERYONE declares war on you.
2. Your empire splits in half in a civil war. (the other half becoming an AI empire with half your army, half your planets, half your wealth, and all your tech and maps).

Of course this should somewhat depend on your government... a totalitarian government should have an easier time doing it than a democracy.
Also, while I see democracies, republics, and maybe even monarchies declaring war on me for nuking someone else (pretty suicidal of them but meh)... having the dictatorships of the universe care that I am doing it seems more then a bit odd...

Although, personally I would not take the nuking option... this is more of a "should work" thing that I personally DON'T like to use, ever. I prefer to conquer them all then to nuke them dead. But I accept the argument some have made that it should be at least doable under certain conditions.

My main modus operandi is to conquer them all... which, as you and I agree, works as it should/intended. and should not be broken because some feel that conquering should penalize you.

I have to say I see what your saying and agree. I have not finished enough games (I start a lot, but I find the early/mid game the be more fun, so I don't finish many) to have seen exactly what happens if you do a lot of nuking. I play sandbox mode, and I kinda stop playing when I own more then half the galaxy and all the other empires combined are not as strong me in any comparative category. I guess I should turn on the % Territory Victory Conditions, but I like determining it for myself, because there still may be a strong opponent out there. When I know I can't be stopped is when I stop

.

Back to your point - is it really impossible to do some nuking, within reason? Has anybody other there been able to keep there empire together while doing some limited nuking?

I am against anybody being able to do wholesale nuking without having major problems, except maybe hivemind.

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 85

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 10:50:18 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

the USA nuked japan...
there was no civil war and nobody declared war on it as a result :P

j/k, I know you are asking about doing it in the game. Personally I don't nuke... I am repeating the accounts of several other forum members who say that the nuclear option makes everyone go to war with them and starts a civil war... I guess i could experiment with it some later on.

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Post #: 86

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 11:03:45 PM

cmdrnarrain

Posts: 89
Joined: 4/21/2010
Status: offline

BS

Wholesale nuking and planet destruction should always be an option. They are in the game but right now you can not do it because each time that you do it your empire will keep splitting in half until you stop. Which is crapola.

If you don't want people to do it, don't put them in the game. Right now it sucks big time because I want to play with those toys but can't and everyone hates a tease.

Sheez, you can already conquer them. Why are you trying to ruin everyone's else fun with this stuff? It seems silly to me or some moral high horse? Like I said, save the PC mumble jumbo for the non-war game sites because DW is a war game.

< Message edited by cmdrnarrain -- 5/21/2010 11:05:16 PM >

(in reply to Gargoil)

Post #: 87

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/21/2010 11:12:27 PM

taltamir

Posts: 1290
Joined: 4/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

BS

Wholesale nuking and planet destruction should always be an option. They are in the game but right now you can not do it because each time that you do it your empire will keep splitting in half until you stop. Which is crapola.

If you don't want people to do it, don't put them in the game. Right now it sucks big time because I want to play with those toys but can't and everyone hates a tease.

Sheez, you can already conquer them. Why are you trying to ruin everyone's else fun with this stuff? It seems silly to me or some moral high horse? Like I said, save the PC mumble jumbo for the non-war game sites because DW is a war game.

who are you talking to?

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Post #: 88

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/22/2010 1:15:30 AM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Basic math shows that your suggestion would make them weaker compared to how they are right now. Your suggestion is a NERF, to claim otherwise is insanity... math is very clear here, currently you have a certain power level, you suggest to REDUCE said power level.
And btw, they are already too weak compared to how they were in v1.00 of the game

Yes, the percentage-based multiracial bonus actually kinda sucks now. You're pretty much going to get nothing out of a new race other than dilution. In fact, their existence in your empire hurts you, because it increases the wall you need to push with your "real" races in order to actually get anything useful. Plus I dispute the notion that you need half your entire population to consist of a race to derive the benefits of them, or that some of those benefits can even be transferrable.

For instance, Boskaras have a -80% war weariness bonus, but there's no particularly logical reason why this should somehow manage to affect, say, your Securan population. It would make more sense if ANY Boskara colony you had received -80% war weariness, regardless of their population composition, but not anyone else, while Securan colonies were +50% happy, but this had no effect on anyone else, as these seem to be intrinsic racial features that cannot be exported into specialists. Features like "Optimist", "Rivalry", and "Warrior Caste" would work this way: They apply to the relevant units of that race, immediately, at 100% strength...and only that race.

Conversely, something like the +40% Quameno research bonus, you only would need enough Quamenos to fill out your research specialists. This would likely be a fixed quantity like before, rather than a huge percentage of your empire: 50% of the population of a nation is not engaged in research: Only a small fraction of people engage in scientific research, and it should be enough that those people are your best researchers. Racial features involving specialists would work like this: Spies, Researchers, Mining Base Miners, Merchants, Starship Engineers, etc.

As it stands now, it is not possible to simultaneously employ Gizurean Engineers, Quameno Researchers, and Ketarov Spymasters in your empire without destroying the point of doing any of this. This in turn hurts the AI: A human can manipulate colonization efforts to make sure the right bonuses get installed, the AI isn't smart enough to figure this out.

While the oldsystem of only needing 2B was probably too generous, the new system is too harsh and punishing. And the more punishing the system becomes, the easier it is for the human to gain an advantage over the AI, as humans are far better at avoiding punishments than AIs are.

< Message edited by Fishman -- 5/22/2010 1:19:53 AM >

(in reply to taltamir)

Post #: 89

RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 - 5/22/2010 1:31:20 AM

AndonSage

Posts: 24
Joined: 12/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Yes, the percentage-based multiracial bonus actually kinda sucks now. <snipped remainder for brevity>

Although I haven't purchased DW yet, I've been reading the forum in preparation, including this thread, and I have to say that your post makes the most sense I've read in this thread. (and this forum needs a :thumbsup smiley :) )

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(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 90