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RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/26/2010 5:10:42 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		By the time the Malaya divisions showed up in my CG, the war in the DEI was already starting to look bad.  I held Balikpapan but the rest of Borneo had fallen, and Bettys were making it tough to get into Surabaya  to pick up the fuel I was taking to Darwin.  I sent the divisions down to Timor and Darwin, plus any base forces or LCU's I could pick up, so when the KB started sniffing around northern Oz I had Darwin heavily defended.

I too sent convoy after convoy to Balikpapan and Surabaya to get as much fuel out of there as possible, and managed to preserve most of the tankers (lost a TF of 4 of them when the Bettys showed up).  Remember, AK's can also haul fuel, just not as much, and you've got a LOT of them early on.  Load them up!

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Post #: 31
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/26/2010 8:41:50 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

In my AI games I don't lose Java. I make my fight there. The troops that are supposed to land in Malaya I send to Java. Some times I can hang on to Palembang but my main focus is Java. From there you can quickly retake the Celebes and by 43 you are fighting in the southern PI. If/when the KB comes its tough but once you start getting some P40 squadrons from the states in there it becomes easier. I will usually bring two of the fleet carriers over and try to pick off the baby KB if it comes. BTW, holding Java, you don't run out of fuel


How ahistorical!!

This might be a case of kicking kittens, with the AI being the kittens and your foot being historical hindsight. Abandoning Malaysia wasn't politically feasible, but if you do it, yeah, you can win a lot faster.

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RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/27/2010 10:30:19 AM   
PMCN

 

Posts: 625
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Why was there a discussion of a shipyard in Perth?  I can't see one there when I was looking last night.  It would be wonderful to have one but I'll just make do with the Castor.

I don't see how you can hold Java if the Japanese try to take it.  The AI put something like 5 divisions into the attack, and their carrier based air flattened the air fields combined with losses from BB bombardments and the rest.  Batvia and Sorebaja became death traps for the ships there.  I managed to get the Castor, Sumatra, Tharcion, Everston and Bulmer out but lost the Durban, Marblehead and John Paul Jones in the attempt.  Of course I made the error of not stopping Operation Siphon and turning back the convoys but I thought this was just a short term raid and not the preliminary to an invasion otherwise I would have lost a lot fewer tankers, light cruisers and tin cans.  But even hanging onto Koepang is proving to be hard.  My first attempt at naval resupply of Darwin also was less than stellar due to betty bombers sinking 2 of the 3 cargo ships during unloading.  On the positive side the Japanese lost a CVE to torpedoes and 2 CVs to mines in the Java invasion plus a BB took 3 torpedoes so should be in the yard for a while.  I managed to evacuate only ABDA HQ, the mariner Bn, the Van Alten Bn, and the 223 Group HQ to Darwin plus a small part of the 4th Inf Rgt and KN-MIL HQ ended up in Koepang.  I'm busy with my flying boats moving the troops from Den Passar and the next island to Koepang...but the Japanese landed a division on Koepang and well the odds and sods that are there have about 1/3 its troop strength.

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Post #: 33
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/27/2010 12:21:19 PM   
Torplexed


Posts: 305
Joined: 3/21/2002
From: The Pacific
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

I don't see how you can hold Java if the Japanese try to take it.  The AI put something like 5 divisions into the attack, and their carrier based air flattened the air fields combined with losses from BB bombardments and the rest.  Batvia and Sorebaja became death traps for the ships there.  I managed to get the Castor, Sumatra, Tharcion, Everston and Bulmer out but lost the Durban, Marblehead and John Paul Jones in the attempt.  Of course I made the error of not stopping Operation Siphon and turning back the convoys but I thought this was just a short term raid and not the preliminary to an invasion otherwise I would have lost a lot fewer tankers, light cruisers and tin cans.  But even hanging onto Koepang is proving to be hard.  My first attempt at naval resupply of Darwin also was less than stellar due to betty bombers sinking 2 of the 3 cargo ships during unloading.  On the positive side the Japanese lost a CVE to torpedoes and 2 CVs to mines in the Java invasion plus a BB took 3 torpedoes so should be in the yard for a while.  I managed to evacuate only ABDA HQ, the mariner Bn, the Van Alten Bn, and the 223 Group HQ to Darwin plus a small part of the 4th Inf Rgt and KN-MIL HQ ended up in Koepang.  I'm busy with my flying boats moving the troops from Den Passar and the next island to Koepang...but the Japanese landed a division on Koepang and well the odds and sods that are there have about 1/3 its troop strength.



It's May 1942 in my campaign game against the Japanese AI and I still hold Java. It's been simplified by the fact that the Japanese keep sending their invasions in piecemeal and usually against the port of Merak where I have an Australian 6" coastal gun unit installed which butchers every landing attempt even before they get hit at the water's edge by my massed British and Indian troops. I've installed enough American, Australian and British fighters in Batavia and Surabaya that Japanese bombers pretty much leave them alone and just hit the minor Javanese airfields instead.

As a consequence India and Australia are a bit under-defended. I'd never try this against a human player.

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Post #: 34
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/27/2010 3:22:28 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

Why was there a discussion of a shipyard in Perth?  I can't see one there when I was looking last night.  It would be wonderful to have one but I'll just make do with the Castor.

I don't see how you can hold Java if the Japanese try to take it.  The AI put something like 5 divisions into the attack, and their carrier based air flattened the air fields combined with losses from BB bombardments and the rest.  Batvia and Sorebaja became death traps for the ships there.  I managed to get the Castor, Sumatra, Tharcion, Everston and Bulmer out but lost the Durban, Marblehead and John Paul Jones in the attempt.  Of course I made the error of not stopping Operation Siphon and turning back the convoys but I thought this was just a short term raid and not the preliminary to an invasion otherwise I would have lost a lot fewer tankers, light cruisers and tin cans.  But even hanging onto Koepang is proving to be hard.  My first attempt at naval resupply of Darwin also was less than stellar due to betty bombers sinking 2 of the 3 cargo ships during unloading.  On the positive side the Japanese lost a CVE to torpedoes and 2 CVs to mines in the Java invasion plus a BB took 3 torpedoes so should be in the yard for a while.  I managed to evacuate only ABDA HQ, the mariner Bn, the Van Alten Bn, and the 223 Group HQ to Darwin plus a small part of the 4th Inf Rgt and KN-MIL HQ ended up in Koepang.  I'm busy with my flying boats moving the troops from Den Passar and the next island to Koepang...but the Japanese landed a division on Koepang and well the odds and sods that are there have about 1/3 its troop strength.



Click on Perth. Look at the icons in the bottom row. Look at the last on the right. Repair Shipyard, Size 3.

I didn't try to hold Java; never even thought to try. I started my GC very soon after the game shipped, and I was past Java when folks here started saying it could be done. I don't doubt it can be done if you're good. I'm not that good, but more importantly for me, I don't think the AI scripts can deal with it well, and it would make for a weird game. Against a human player I think it would be a lot of fun to try.

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Post #: 35
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 9:14:41 AM   
PMCN

 

Posts: 625
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: Germany
Status: offline 		The difference I saw was that the AI first of all used all of its carriers to hit Java.  I had a ring of carrier groups around the island and the carrier planes/pilots were resistant to attrition.  By the end I had less than 10 fighters total in Java.  I lost a group of P40Es I could have moved in due to not noticing the option for drop tank use and some bad luck but still it is hard to see where the planes would come from to stop the carrier air strikes.  Also the AI landed at 5 or 6 different places so I don't see how it would have been possible to stop the troops getting ashore.  Plus if the "initial operations bonus" is still present the AI can unload a massive quantity of troops in an extremely short time from otherwise unsuitable ships.   I had good success with mines and with air strikes on the landed troops but the AI had more troops than I did very shortly after the landings started.  It seems possible running lists through my head that you could reinforce Java significantly but at this time of the war you are in a "rob peter to pay paul" state of affairs.  But I don't know for sure what sort of limitations the AI may face in terms of scripted efforts...Marek was successfully invaded but if it had not been would the AI have landed elsewhere?  Clearly since people do it, it is possible though.

I'll look again at Perth for the shipyard.  It is odd it never showed up when I was repairing the DD's there as a repair option though.

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Post #: 36
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 2:59:46 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

I'll look again at Perth for the shipyard.  It is odd it never showed up when I was repairing the DD's there as a repair option though.



Look at Page 244. If the DD is more than 3000 tons, you won't get Shipyard as an option. But the yard itself generates a fair number of repair points. More than just a base hex without any Repair ships would. You can do a lot of fixing up at Perth, just not a lot of Major Floatation damage work, except to xAKLs and some small craft and small subs.

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Post #: 37
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 3:25:22 PM   
PMCN

 

Posts: 625
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I'm sorry but there is no shipyard at Perth in my game. I don't know why you have one and I don't but trust me I don't have one there. I have manpower, light and heavy industry and resources that is all. Colour me confused.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 38
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 3:49:10 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

I'm sorry but there is no shipyard at Perth in my game. I don't know why you have one and I don't but trust me I don't have one there. I have manpower, light and heavy industry and resources that is all. Colour me confused.


Here's my Perth:






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 39
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 3:49:54 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		Here's the Perth Shipyard detail:






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 40
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 3:50:35 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		What Patch did you start your game under?

Edit: I don't think it matters. I just played the Dec. 7 turn under a new Scenario 1 game, made under Patch 3, with the last hotfix, and Perth still has a 3 Repair Shipyard.

I don't think the shipyards were changed in the different scenarios, but which one are you playing?


< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 5/28/2010 4:07:36 PM >

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RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 4:54:49 PM   
PMCN

 

Posts: 625
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Well I am playing under patch 3 but without the hotfix and I started under patch 1 or 2. Without taking a screen shot I can only say I don't have that repair yard...I would love to have it but I don't. I could have repaired a bunch of ships I am in the process of sending to Adeliade or Melbourne to fix. I don't understand why it isn't there but there are only four "boxes" in Perth the shipyard one is not there; just the first four you have (manpower, light industry, heavy industry and resources).

Colour me confused even more.

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Post #: 42
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 5:00:18 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Paul, which scenario are you playing?  That must be the difference.

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Post #: 43
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 5:06:56 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

Well I am playing under patch 3 but without the hotfix and I started under patch 1 or 2. Without taking a screen shot I can only say I don't have that repair yard...I would love to have it but I don't. I could have repaired a bunch of ships I am in the process of sending to Adeliade or Melbourne to fix. I don't understand why it isn't there but there are only four "boxes" in Perth the shipyard one is not there; just the first four you have (manpower, light industry, heavy industry and resources).

Colour me confused even more.


Found it. It was changed in a patch.

v1.00.84 – September 9, 2009
• First Official Update

Base Data Changes
1. Maebashi factory number 18 correctly set to produce “Ki-44-IIa Tojo” instead of “Ki-43-1c Oscar”.
2. “Chichi-jima” (111,74) and “Haha-jima” (110,75) have their Airfield SPS values reduced to 0 to match the updated terrain types for these islands.
3. Truk now has a size 4 Repair Shipyard.
4. Perth now has a size 3 Repair Shipyard.
5. San Luis Obispo now has a size 2 port.
6. Bataan port size has been increased from 1 to 2.

I think you HAVE to answer "Yes", with the keyboard, not by clicking, when, the first time you reload after a patch, the load screen tells you things have changed and do you want to play with the new Y/N? If you did that, and you still don't have Perth's shipyard, I'm stumped, because you had two more chances to have the DB write the new shipyard in Patches 2&3.

I think you can still do it. Just reinstall Patch 3 (which is comprehensive with #1 and #2) (it won't mess up your saved game) and make sure you press "y" if it asks you to.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 5/28/2010 5:10:02 PM >

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RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 5:15:47 PM   
witpqs


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Status: offline 		Just FYI, some of those database changes didn't make it into the smaller scenarios.

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Post #: 45
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 5:19:55 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		Following myself up, I'd still say to try to reinstall Patch 3, but now that I think about it, you may be stuck. I started my game after Patch 1, and I have those base changes. But I can never remember which things are baked into the save/DB, and which a patch can change. Bases may be baked in. I know I have an ARD stuck at Portland forever because it can't get out the river, and that this was changed to an arrival in Seattle in a later patch, but mine remains at Portland for the duration.

Patches usually make seamless changes to the executable file. OOB and base hex files I'm unsure of.

If you can't realize these Patch 1 changes (and look at the Release Notes--there were a bunch of OOB and base changes in that first, big patch), you might want to re-start. Sounds like you're not that far into 1942? Up to you.

But try to reinstall Patch 3 first. Couldn't hurt.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 5/28/2010 5:22:47 PM >

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RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 5:21:21 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Just FYI, some of those database changes didn't make it into the smaller scenarios.


I didn't know that. Not sure which one Paul is playing, but I'd assumed #1 or #2. I don't think he's said.

I also, as I re-posted, am not clear on what can be changed on the fly in an ongoing game, if it's OOB and base related.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 5/28/2010 9:46:29 PM >

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RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 5:44:30 PM   
PMCN

 

Posts: 625
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Playing the grand campaign and not keen on going through the restarting bit as a lot of time is so far invested, although Alfred thinks I am fairly quick it is nearly real time...as I can only get at most 3 days in 4 hours (1 day playing) and mostly I am more like 2 days in 4 hours so redoing 6 months would be painful. Besides I have an AAR ongoing...I'd rather not abandon it. I will try re-installing patch three, I believe I may have clicked rather than use the keyboard but I honestly can't recall any more. In the worst case I can live without the shipyard in Perth, it is not critical. But at least we know where it came from which is good, you can now colour me un-confused.

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Post #: 48
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/28/2010 8:26:51 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul McNeely

Playing the grand campaign and not keen on going through the restarting bit as a lot of time is so far invested, although Alfred thinks I am fairly quick it is nearly real time...as I can only get at most 3 days in 4 hours (1 day playing) and mostly I am more like 2 days in 4 hours so redoing 6 months would be painful. Besides I have an AAR ongoing...I'd rather not abandon it. I will try re-installing patch three, I believe I may have clicked rather than use the keyboard but I honestly can't recall any more. In the worst case I can live without the shipyard in Perth, it is not critical. But at least we know where it came from which is good, you can now colour me un-confused.


Me too. I usually only skim the release notes at best. There were many, many changes to the devices/OOB and map/terrain in that first patch.

This is one you may really, really want to make sure is in your game: "5. Shokaku class 1826 - changed the Belt Armor from 215 to 165."

I hear you on replaynig the first 6-months. As the Allies, no fun. In my next game I'm semi-seriously thinking of letting the computer play itself through June 1, 1942, then taking over and seeing where it left me. Those long, painful retreats from the PI, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Java are no fun overall.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 5/28/2010 9:47:17 PM >

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RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/29/2010 6:21:17 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

... Those long, painful retreats from the PI, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Java are no fun overall.


Aw come on, they're character building Plus they are a good reminder that the AI is not as dumb as so many anti AI snobs around here continually wail about

If there were no Allied retreats, too many Allied players would be afflicted with hubris, which is too prevalent as it is already.

Alfred

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Post #: 50
RE: Auxillary Repair Ships - 5/29/2010 7:05:10 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

... Those long, painful retreats from the PI, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Java are no fun overall.


Aw come on, they're character building Plus they are a good reminder that the AI is not as dumb as so many anti AI snobs around here continually wail about

If there were no Allied retreats, too many Allied players would be afflicted with hubris, which is too prevalent as it is already.

Alfred


The AI is great overall, and letting it go head-to-head evens out any, shall we say, special needs either side might have. I've never played the Japanese against the Allied AI, so I have no idea how the Allies handle the retreats, and if that AI would begin building supply piles. I'd think building in off-map movement woudl be especially challenging for any AI script writer. I'm sure I'd want to jump in and "help", so maybe I won't let it play itself.

I keep thinking I should at least try a game as the Japanese, but the thought of running the economy always puts me off.


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