RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/8/2010 6:42:20 PM

junk2drive

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Latest posting on JTS website

quote:

Before this endeavor started last Friday, we had no idea what to expect. I had established a sales goal for the end of the month that I felt would represent undisputable success. I am delighted to report that because of your enthusiastic response, our first month sales goal was achieved Tuesday.

Our second game, a Squad Battles game, is finished and ready for release in the near future. And we have a very aggressive publishing schedule established for the first half of 2011 to populate the store with a variety of games from many different areas.

Thank you for ensuring that my team and I will be able to continue our efforts well into the future.

John Tiller
08 Dec 2010

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/8/2010 6:51:07 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Hmm

Well that says two things to me. Even if others read it differently.

1. Our sales success refutes all your complaints as having no importance to me.

2. I plan to continue doing it my way regardless of a few complaints on the internet.

You might see it differently, but it sounded smug too me.

I just finished downloading a 80 dollar game John, and it wasn't yours.
Enjoy your success.

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/8/2010 7:17:37 PM

diablo1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Hmm

Well that says two things to me. Even if others read it differently.

1. Our sales success refutes all your complaints as having no importance to me.

2. I plan to continue doing it my way regardless of a few complaints on the internet.

You might see it differently, but it sounded smug too me.

I just finished downloading a 80 dollar game John, and it wasn't yours.
Enjoy your success.

LMAO man everybody is jabbing at something today.

But, you do know how easy it is to say something that isn't true on the Internet now don't you Les? He could say his sales figures shot up to the moon and back but doesn't mean it's so. I want to see figures, data bases stuff you know he won't release or Matrixgames either for that matter. Although I though income tax reports were/are public?

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/8/2010 9:24:12 PM

Yogi the Great

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While I won't be buying from him at this time, I certainly see no reason not to wish him well and great success. Any succesful wargame company is something I consider helpful to all of us. The more the better.

Yes, he could be making things up, but he is probably being sincere.

Now, whether the goal he met was to sell 1,000 games or 10 games isn't mentioned.

While many of us, including myself, are unhappy with the situation and may have complained about it on the Internet, we still represent a small percentage of the total number of people who buy. Who knows, maybe for every one of us who says they won't buy, there are 10 who are quietly doing so.

So, Good Luck Mr. Tiller, but please consider providing hard copies and changing your DRM poicy so that a few more of us will buy your games as well.

< Message edited by Yogi the Great -- 12/8/2010 9:50:29 PM >

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/8/2010 10:23:26 PM

LarryP

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Yogi; Good post!

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/8/2010 10:25:13 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Internet details are a tricky thing indeed.

I bought Civ V even with all the 'thrill' that is Steam connected with it.

Now if you look at the Firaxis forums, it 'seems' like the games is a disgusting waste of money based on the volume of hate on the forums there.

But one person mentioned, if you subtract the entire sum of registered users there, from the reported 3 million sales (was 3 million when the comment was made), that leaves you with a smashing success if the games only detractors are the ones complaining on the forum.

As was mentioned, we have no idea what John considers a 'success' number.
But this isn't Firaxis we are talking about, and John sure hasn't made several millions sales hehe.

I'm used to ASL and most board games measuring interest level needed for a first print run to be in the ranger of 1000 units often even less.
I suppose if John is drinking champagne after generating 1000 sales, well that's his business. I mean, that would be 1000 x 40 bucks, or 40 thousand bucks. Yeah I suppose I'd be happy if I made 40 thousand bucks last week too I guess.
And it's not like it's his day job. So that's 40 thousand in spending money perhaps.

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/8/2010 11:16:19 PM

V22 Osprey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Hmm

Well that says two things to me. Even if others read it differently.

1. Our sales success refutes all your complaints as having no importance to me.

2. I plan to continue doing it my way regardless of a few complaints on the internet.

You might see it differently, but it sounded smug too me.

I just finished downloading a 80 dollar game John, and it wasn't yours.
Enjoy your success.

That's how I took it as well. Especially when he said "I am delighted to report that because of your enthusiastic response..."

I sense sarcasm in there, as the response from the community as a whole was I would say less than enthusiastic. His choice of words I think clearly reflects on how he thinks of us who did not like his DRM.

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/8/2010 11:18:12 PM

diablo1

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quote:

I mean, that would be 1000 x 40 bucks, or 40 thousand bucks.

And they wonder why we complain about $80 games.

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/8/2010 11:22:17 PM

junk2drive

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And a programer makes how much a year?

I look back at the companies that are gone. A boss, a couple of programmers, a couple of years work, a couple of hundred thousand invested, $40000 sales divided up with a publisher...

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/8/2010 11:31:44 PM

V22 Osprey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

And a programer makes how much a year?

I look back at the companies that are gone. A boss, a couple of programmers, a couple of years work, a couple of hundred thousand invested, $40000 sales divided up with a publisher...

Well, now he has no publisher sucking up money from the sales of future releases, plus I don't think he has "a couple hundred thousand invested". Let's be real here...

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/8/2010 11:41:46 PM

junk2drive

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First off, I stated I was talking about game companies that are no longer around.

Second, it was a response to the blanket statement that $80 games pay one guy (not JT) too much money.

There is usually a front guy that puts up the money, a programmer, an artist. Or they buy someone's art and any other bits they might need.

If you have just 3 guys at $30k a piece for a year that is $90 without a building and other expenses like traveling to game conventions.

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/8/2010 11:52:39 PM

V22 Osprey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

First off, I stated I was talking about game companies that are no longer around.

Second, it was a response to the blanket statement that $80 games pay one guy (not JT) too much money.

There is usually a front guy that puts up the money, a programmer, an artist. Or they buy someone's art and any other bits they might need.

If you have just 3 guys at $30k a piece for a year that is $90 without a building and other expenses like traveling to game conventions.

Sorry, in your comparison you made it seem as if JT as in the same situation. I'm also sorry that I assumed it was a response to me, but it wasn't all that clear and you never put quotes.

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 12:06:13 AM

junk2drive

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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

First off, I stated I was talking about game companies that are no longer around.

Second, it was a response to the blanket statement that $80 games pay one guy (not JT) too much money.

There is usually a front guy that puts up the money, a programmer, an artist. Or they buy someone's art and any other bits they might need.

If you have just 3 guys at $30k a piece for a year that is $90 without a building and other expenses like traveling to game conventions.

Sorry, in your comparison you made it seem as if JT as in the same situation. I'm also sorry that I assumed it was a response to me, but it wasn't all that clear and you never put quotes.

LOL it makes me nuts when people quote the post right above theirs. Especially the really long posts with the same long post right below.

Could be that a programmer like JT makes $100k+ a year and $40k is not a big paycheck to him. I don't know.

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 12:10:31 AM

junk2drive

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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Hmm

Well that says two things to me. Even if others read it differently.

1. Our sales success refutes all your complaints as having no importance to me.

2. I plan to continue doing it my way regardless of a few complaints on the internet.

You might see it differently, but it sounded smug too me.

I just finished downloading a 80 dollar game John, and it wasn't yours.
Enjoy your success.

That's how I took it as well. Especially when he said "I am delighted to report that because of your enthusiastic response..."

I sense sarcasm in there, as the response from the community as a whole was I would say less than enthusiastic. His choice of words I think clearly reflects on how he thinks of us who did not like his DRM.

I have known people that would lie about their success. I don't know JT.

I do know that everyone reads statements differently. The news media is good at reading it for you and telling you what it means.
There are probably some that read JT's statement as sarcasm or arrogance, and others that will take it a humble thank you.

< Message edited by junk2drive -- 12/9/2010 12:12:20 AM >

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 1:35:20 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Just so everyone knows, I pulled 1000 units out of thin air. They call it the P500 system for a reason.

Myself, if I had a real job, and I heard his was a government job, which is likely a fine enough job, but like I said, if I had a real job, a decent income type income and the wargames was a side thing, well 'making a lot of money' would be fun, but I'd be doing it for the fun of making the game more than the fun of making money (not that I would object to making money).

Not sure how hard it is for John to make a new release. He's got a working engine to my knowledge, and he sure isn't spending a lot of effort on new audio sounds. The graphics likely no longer present him with the same challenge as in the beginning. I'm sure it's mostly research these days. Thing is, his games look templated. But hey, I don't begrudge him making money.

But it's possible to say, his games could easily all fit inside of one, such as TOAW III.
You guys would never tolerate paying 80 bucks that's for sure :)

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 1:38:06 AM

junk2drive

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I would find it hard to buy 20 versions of the same thing at $40 a pop. Some people have though.

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 2:05:23 AM

jomni

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I would find it hard to buy 20 versions of the same thing at $40 a pop. Some people have though.

I've bought several SB games. I admit I'm an addict. But I only get the titles with theaters that interset me.
Total cost is more than your overpriced WITP, BFTB, WITE. :D

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 2:14:07 AM

V22 Osprey

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I don't see how everyone thinks he's just copying with every release. Obviously every game is going to be similar in a certain series. Yes all his games look similar across different series, but thats because his interface WORKS. You guys act as if Squad Battles, Panzer Campaigns, Naval Campaigns, and Napoleon's Battles all play the same. First World War Campaigns plays nothing like Panzer Campaigns, however the two games use a similar interface that makes it easy to jump into. Try playing FWWC with Panzer Campaigns tactics and play style, you will get your ass handed to you. I do agree with sarge in that all the games of a certain series could be packaged into a single game.

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 2:43:25 AM

junk2drive

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I will admit that I and some people are spoiled by all in one games like Steel Panthers and all front games like CMBB. SB I can understand a separate game for EF WF PF Korea Vietnam SAW. The rest should be reduced price expansions.

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 2:55:57 AM

V22 Osprey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I will admit that I and some people are spoiled by all in one games like Steel Panthers and all front games like CMBB. SB I can understand a separate game for EF WF PF Korea Vietnam SAW. The rest should be reduced price expansions.

Agreed. Plus, not only do games like JTCS, WinSPWW2, SPWAW, and WinSPMBT cover everything in one game, they also have fantastic battle generators and editors. I like Jphn Tiller's games more for their historical scenarios and time periods that are usually not covered.(I love Musket and Pike The Renaissance) I honestly don't think ANY game even touches the amount of stuff WinSPMBT(CD Version especially) has in one game, not even WinSPWW2.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 12/9/2010 2:57:08 AM >

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 3:14:00 AM

jomni

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Being a Squad Battles fan, I find it more realistic and engrossing than Steel Panthers.� You get leaders with names, individual weapons that you can drop and pick up, option to take cover.
But their focus are different. SB = Infantry focus (doesn't do tanks well), SP = Tank focus (depiciton of infantry is bland).
It would be great if each title is treated as an add-on and sold at add-on price.� That would definitely take in more new blood.
But selling everything as stand-alone game also makes sense as you can choose the titles like me.

< Message edited by jomni -- 12/9/2010 3:16:04 AM >

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 3:19:19 AM

junk2drive

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I would like to try SB some day. A long time ago "they" said that all the titles would get the 3D isometric units. I'm not gonna buy until they do. I don't like counters.

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 3:43:37 AM

V22 Osprey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

Being a Squad Battles fan, I find it more realistic and engrossing than Steel Panthers.� You get leaders with names, individual weapons that you can drop and pick up, option to take cover.
But their focus are different. SB = Infantry focus (doesn't do tanks well), SP = Tank focus (depiciton of infantry is bland).
It would be great if each title is treated as an add-on and sold at add-on price.� That would definitely take in more new blood.
But selling everything as stand-alone game also makes sense as you can choose the titles like me.

Good point. However, one could argue the fact that in steel panthers you get leaders as well. The leaders are integrated into the squads, otherwise they work the same way the leaders in SqB does. In steel panthers, your squad leader will try to rally, if he fails, and if you are near the lead squad of the platoon, the platoon commander will also try and help rally. Sure you can't move around leaders the same way SqB does, but it works.

Also, I guess you have never right clicked a squad in steel panthers. The leader of each squad gets a name and rank just like SqB, heck you can change it during the game or in the editor when creating historical scenarios. You can also tell a squad to not shoot certain weapons in the right click info screen as well.

Steel Panthers also has an Op Fire filter, so you can tell your squad to shutup to maintain surprise or save ammo. If there is function like this SqB, I have not seen it. I agree SqB feels more realistic and engaging but whereas SqB fails at it's representation of armor, Steel panthers being armor based also does a rather decent job of infantry as well.

Also, don't get me wrong. I love Squad Battles. I have both and play both.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 12/9/2010 3:46:07 AM >

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 3:53:06 AM

jomni

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quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
Good point. However, one could argue the fact that in steel panthers you get leaders as well. The leaders are integrated into the squads, otherwise they work the same way the leaders in SqB does. In steel panthers, your squad leader will try to rally, if he fails, and if you are near the lead squad of the platoon, the platoon commander will also try and help rally. Sure you can't move around leaders the same way SqB does, but it works.

As a sparate unit, your leaders can get killed just by the act of rallying, and their proper placement and use is important. This leads to mroe tactical options and immersion.

quote:

Also, I guess you have never right clicked a squad in steel panthers. Te leader of each squad gets a name and rank just like SqB, heck you can change it during the game or in the editor when creating historical scenarios. You can also tell a squad to not shoot certain weapons in the right click info screen as well.

I do right click to manage the individual weapons. But it like it better when I see pictures and faces instead of text and numbers. In SP, it seems that infantry is just a "statistic".

quote:

Steel Panthers also has an Op Fire filter, so you can tell your squad to shutup to maintain surprise or save ammo. If there is function like this SqB, I have not seen it. I agree SqB feels more realistic and engaging but whereas SqB fails at it's representation of armor, Steel panthers being armor based also does a rather decent of infantry as well.

Hold fire command (in the Command menu) can be issued to each individual weapon type. But what's lacking is the range filter like SP. So squads in SB will completely hold fire for the whole of your opponent's turn. But still, very handy in doing ambushes. SB brings it to another level where you can actually pick up a dropped weapon (by dead friends or enemies). So if your LMG gunner dies or if you see a nice enemy weapon, you can have someone pick it up. ...But with less effectiveness because you don't have time to scrounge for all the ammo and is not trained to use it. All these little things add to the immersion factor.

quote:

Also, don't get me wrong. I love Squad Battles. I have both and play both.

No worries.

< Message edited by jomni -- 12/9/2010 3:57:25 AM >

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 4:13:10 AM

junk2drive

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My fear of SB is all of that detail becoming a tedious task for me.

SP assumes that the soldier knocked out has the lowest weapon. Or another way to look at it is that someone picks up the better weapon from a casualty. Generic but it doesn't require any thinking or input from the player. I understand that you like that input.

I'm glad I like BBC BA. And the expansions.

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 4:16:22 AM

V22 Osprey

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Hold fire command eh? Thanks for telling me! I never knew about that. All this time I thought it was so annoying having troops blasting across the map wasting ammo.

I just got SqB Pacific War a month ago, enjoying but fighting the Japanese is a challenge to say the least.

EDIT: Junk, the detail in SqB is a strong point as long as the scenarios aren't too large.

< Message edited by V22 Osprey -- 12/9/2010 4:17:13 AM >

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 8:18:01 AM

gabeeg

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WinSPWW2 and SB...my two absolute favorite wargame systems...period. I love both but I find the larger scale, company+ sized battles with more detailed TOE/OOB's...or at least more varied, and slower play more engrossing...but not more fun...just different.

All I have to say about John Tillers new venture now after hearing there is a SB title about to be released is "John, I am very disappointed with some of your business decisions...now...when can I give you some money for that new SB title"...yes I am a jacka$$ hypocrite with no firm principles...and a liberal for good measure (some may argue that these are all consistant with the latter).

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 12:38:58 PM

junk2drive

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Thanks for the chuckle. I hope most people can hold out longer than he can.

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/9/2010 1:47:28 PM

diablo1

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As Leslie Nielson said at the end of that skit in the horror movie: "I can hold my breath a long long time".

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RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital - 12/10/2010 12:45:51 AM

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JT Games are a nonissue at this point. They just don't exist as far as I'm concerned. There are HPS games, there are Matrix Games, Slitherine Games, Schwerpunkt Games, NWS, Games, but I don't see no JT Games anywhere.

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