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Is this even vaguely realistic? - 3/14/2011 9:23:41 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Status: offline 		Road to Leningrad PBEM.

My opponent was able drive his panzers across marshes and through woods, with no obvious line of supply, all the way to the Finnish border, then wheel left and attack Leningrad from the East. Of course, once he shook hands with the Finns, they joined in.

Is this really a feasible option that could have been played out in 1941?




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< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 4/29/2011 3:47:25 PM >

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/14/2011 9:46:32 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Status: offline 		Not only it is feasible, it's by far the best way to take LG as German, in the GAME. May I suggest you read couple last posts in my AAR with Senno (Waiting for the spring miracle), where exactly this way to take LG is being discussed and suggested by myself.

Now, as to how realistic that would be in real world.... I won't comment.... I constantly complain about Germans being supermen in summer 41, but people refuse to believe me. Germans are indeed overpowered, but this strategy is simply a player using what game puts at his disposal.

Note, also that he didn't need any panzers borrowed from AGM to do this (it's Road to... so no AGM).

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/14/2011 9:46:50 PM   
Mynok


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He has a nice wide corridor through which his supply trucks can go. Why would you think he has no line of supply?


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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/14/2011 10:49:40 PM   
Josh

 

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Status: offline 		Hmm, I see he used only  a small fraction of his troops to block Leningrad. Maybe he used two FBD units together to get the rails as fast as possible to Staraya Russa? Maybe coupled with HQ buildup?
Impressive move though...

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/14/2011 10:54:01 PM   
Redmarkus5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


He has a nice wide corridor through which his supply trucks can go. Why would you think he has no line of supply?



Do you know anything about the terrain in that part of the world? The Soviets spent months building log roads just to bring supplies up to Tikhvin.

Sigh. I am going to complete my map mod and then head off to other things.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/14/2011 10:54:47 PM   
Redmarkus5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Not only it is feasible, it's by far the best way to take LG as German, in the GAME. May I suggest you read couple last posts in my AAR with Senno (Waiting for the spring miracle), where exactly this way to take LG is being discussed and suggested by myself.

Now, as to how realistic that would be in real world.... I won't comment.... I constantly complain about Germans being supermen in summer 41, but people refuse to believe me. Germans are indeed overpowered, but this strategy is simply a player using what game puts at his disposal.

Note, also that he didn't need any panzers borrowed from AGM to do this (it's Road to... so no AGM).


I hear you.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/14/2011 10:55:54 PM   
Redmarkus5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

Hmm, I see he used only  a small fraction of his troops to block Leningrad. Maybe he used two FBD units together to get the rails as fast as possible to Staraya Russa? Maybe coupled with HQ buildup?
Impressive move though...



I do understand that it's possible in the game - I just witnessed it first hand.

My question is, was this even remotely conceivable in real life?

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/14/2011 10:59:19 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


He has a nice wide corridor through which his supply trucks can go. Why would you think he has no line of supply?



Do you know anything about the terrain in that part of the world? The Soviets spent months building log roads just to bring supplies up to Tikhvin.

Sigh. I am going to complete my map mod and then head off to other things.


They have rail corridors they can follow. I have no clue if they could have done it in real life. It's probably unanswerable.

< Message edited by Mynok -- 3/14/2011 11:01:21 PM >

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/14/2011 11:02:31 PM   
Senno

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

but this strategy is simply a player using what game puts at his disposal.



Srangely, that's my strategy also.

You can see my AAR for a bit of balance to Oleg's reporting, Red. But I must warn you, my turns didn't develope the same way, sadly.

I ruthlessly expose the warts, that's for sure.

Otherwise, in game it's realistic. I do it to the AI every time.



< Message edited by Senno -- 3/14/2011 11:04:24 PM >

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/14/2011 11:06:26 PM   
Josh

 

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Status: offline 		In real life? Not in my opinion. Well it certainly would've fit with Hitler's megalomania. But just look at the terrain, the troops you would need, the trucks for supplies. The Valday hills were heavilly fought over, more like trench warfare... so yeah, great move gamewise. Not so certain it could've been done in real life..... *then again* stranger things have happened... you just never know for sure. I'd say; unlikely.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 12:20:25 AM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		This has, once again, nothing to do with the Germans being supermen. Both sides face the same MP costs for entering the various terrain hexes.

As you can see, the majority of those hexes are light woods or heavy woods hexes. The area wasn't one big bog. Whether it's realistic or not would primarily depend on how long it took the Panzers to get there.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 12:26:32 AM   
Ketza


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Status: offline 		Wow what a breakthrough.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 2:10:37 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

This has, once again, nothing to do with the Germans being supermen. Both sides face the same MP costs for entering the various terrain hexes.


It's not just MP costs to enter terrain hexes that makes any unit supermen, how about supply, morale, readiness (yes I know WITE does not have any factor directly named "readiness" but other games have), fatigue... Germans in summer appear not to suffer any of that.

I did this trick in one game vs human, it was pretty easy, in part because he didn't expect it, and in part because he had to man the Luga line in any case - I sent some units there in case he pulls back and leaves that, more direct approach, open. German secret weapon? HQ buildup! Seriously, HQ buildup is Kido Butai Death Star of this game (for those who played WITP). You pay pretty steep price in damaged and lost trucks but it's definitely worth sacrificing 1200 trucks at the altar of supermanity, in order to be able to cross Valdai Hills and this Nowehere land couple times with 50 MPs and link up with Finns.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 2:21:56 AM   
mmarquo


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Status: offline 		"it was pretty easy, in part because he didn't expect it"

Oleg,

Are you actually giving your game play credit rather than the old "ubermensch" theorem? I see we are making progress....

Marquo  

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 2:26:03 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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Status: offline 		LOL Marquo you're being funny again.... gotta be some of that ubermensch virus went from my German counters to my lungs and bloodstream, making me one of Them.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 10:54:35 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Status: offline 		I don't think this is realistic at all! As I have pointed out in another thread, I think the game seriously underestimates the difficulties with terrain in this area. These are not nice european woods, this is serious roadless wilderness!

I live in Sweden and I have visited parts of Russia (though not the exact parts e are talking about here I admit) and I did my military service as a tank platoon commander in similar terrain. You simply cannot drive large mechanised forces through that kind of terrain just like that! Especially not when most of their stuff and supplies come on two-wheel drive trucks not made for off road driving.

There was a reason the Germans did not sent their panzer formations this way. IMHO much more of the terrain east of Leningrad should be heavy woods, and terrain should have a much more marked effect on supply.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 11:22:18 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I don't think this is realistic at all! As I have pointed out in another thread, I think the game seriously underestimates the difficulties with terrain in this area. These are not nice european woods, this is serious roadless wilderness!


I tend to agree with Tarhunnas, this is not the Ardennes, it seems far too easy for panzers, indeed any large military force, to move through this area. Would be interesting to see some WWII vintage maps of this area...

Just seems like if it were this easy, the Germans would have done this rather than beseiging Lgrad for 900 days?


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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 2:17:24 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

It's not just MP costs to enter terrain hexes that makes any unit supermen, how about supply, morale, readiness (yes I know WITE does not have any factor directly named "readiness" but other games have), fatigue... Germans in summer appear not to suffer any of that.


Fatique could be interpreted as readiness. In any case, there's probably no functional rail line near the spearhead, so they'll feel the supply pressure. 30 MP's or so each turn don't cut it for a breakthrough through terrain like that. Due to the changes to morale gain, German units will on average face a higher MP cost for entering hexes than in the release version.

German mobile unit CV's after moving are also usually not that high, and the Soviets only need 1:1 odds to push them back.

Considering that the Germans only have about 1 Panzer corps for AGN, I'm quite surprised that they got this far. It indicates a major failure in Soviet defensive strategy. If you can't stop a handful of mobile units from doing this, that says something about the defensive skills of the Soviet player, not about the Germans being supermen.

quote:

German secret weapon? HQ buildup! Seriously, HQ buildup is Kido Butai Death Star of this game (for those who played WITP). You pay pretty steep price in damaged and lost trucks but it's definitely worth sacrificing 1200 trucks at the altar of supermanity, in order to be able to cross Valdai Hills and this Nowehere land couple times with 50 MPs and link up with Finns.


HQ build-up reduces overall supply by about 2% according to the manual. Do it 5 times in one or two turns and you're facing a 10% supply reduction for about 2 months and you lose a few thousand trucks. A proper defensive line can slow the Germans down even if they have 50 MP's. In my game with James, he advanced about 5-6 hexes on turn 2 in many areas (with around 45-50 MP's), not something I'm scared of.

quote:

There was a reason the Germans did not sent their panzer formations this way.


How do you know that, have you read any OKH studies debating the pros and cons of this move? We don't know if this move was possible in real life or not because the Germans didn't try it. That's not the same thing as it being impossible. I'd also say that it's debatable whether mobile units would not be able to move through largely undefended light woods. It would be slow, but it would still be possible.

redmarkus opponent drove around 200 miles to link up with the Finns (from the starting positions indicated by the arrows he placed on the map). The main question is how long it took them to do so. If it took him 4 turns or so, that's 50 miles/turn and only 7.1 miles per day. I don't find that an unreasonable rate of advance at all, it's rather slow for mobile forces, fitting for the terrain type.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 2:27:39 PM   
Schmauser

 

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Status: offline 		Depends on how you define the word "realistic".

Are you saying 100% probability of success or snowball's chance in hell percentages?

How realistic was it to think that Germans could be knocking at the doors of Moscow 5 months after advancing into the SU?

How realistic was it to think that Germans would conquer Poland in a month and France in 6 weeks?


To me the bottom line is that a computer game will always require one to sacrifice a bit of reality in order to have something that is playable. In this case, your opponent likely used HQ buildups to max MP's. In addition, terrain modifiers for the woods hexes is universal across the map which doesn't account for local variations in density or additional terrain factors. This makes movement predictable, but not that realistic.

I am actually surprised more Axis players don't use this in GC's. Requires a few more troops, but works well to activate the Finns. This also frees up German troops for the winter.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 3:24:35 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
How do you know that, have you read any OKH studies debating the pros and cons of this move? We don't know if this move was possible in real life or not because the Germans didn't try it. That's not the same thing as it being impossible. I'd also say that it's debatable whether mobile units would not be able to move through largely undefended light woods. It would be slow, but it would still be possible.


I think we'd have a better understanding of whether it was actually possible if we looked at a map with (or rather, without) roads. Even one ten mile (ie, one hex) stretch of forest without a road would be an enormous obstacle to overcome in a week, and we are looking at about 18 hexes from Lake Ilmen to the Finish border! I seriously doubt that there was an uninterrupted network of roads through that stretch of "undefended light woods", although I could be wrong.

I think at home I might have a link to a website with scans of old Soviet maps (I think 40s-50s vintage), will try to check today or tomorrow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmauser

Depends on how you define the word "realistic".

To me the bottom line is that a computer game will always require one to sacrifice a bit of reality in order to have something that is playable. In this case, your opponent likely used HQ buildups to max MP's.


Good question, but to me if something is physically impossible (as I deem advancing thousands of vehicles hundreds of miles through trackless forest), it is "unrealistic", and it is sacrificing more than a "bit of reality" if it can happen. But again, we don't know the state of the road network, so for now at least, who knows?

< Message edited by 76mm -- 3/15/2011 3:28:18 PM >

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 3:33:46 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

I think we'd have a better understanding of whether it was actually possible if we looked at a map with (or rather, without) roads. Even one ten mile (ie, one hex) stretch of forest without a road would be an enormous obstacle to overcome in a week, and we are looking at about 18 hexes from Lake Ilmen to the Finish border! I seriously doubt that there was an uninterrupted network of roads through that stretch of "undefended light woods", although I could be wrong.


A lot would depend on how dense the woods/forest really was.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 4:12:22 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
A lot would depend on how dense the woods/forest really was.


I don't really think so, it is not like they are driving through an orchard, or the steppe.

While I have not been in this particular stretch of Russia, I've travelled very extensively here and much of the forest is the same--lots and lots and lots of rather thin birch trees, interspersed with meadows, streams, and bogs. While we're probably not talking about primeval forest with oak trees with ten-foot-wide trunks, it doesn't mean you could just ram through it without building a road, all the while with pesky snipers and partisans taking pot shots. If there weren't existing roads, I think it would have been absolutely and completely impossible to cover this distance with a mechanized army in the couple of weeks it took in the game.

[EDIT] If someone is really curious, I'm sure they can look at the area on google earth: while roads have surely been built, towns expanded, and huge swathes of trees felled by logging, much of the area is probably not too different from in the 1940s.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 3/15/2011 4:16:15 PM >

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 4:27:24 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

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i think this move cannot be done. But to be honest, if the axis player has one advantage that is not historically true i have zero problems with it, knowing that the blizzard"bug" and the Fortress-Russia-Level-4-4-5hexes-deep-Defence-zone in 42 will crush any axis move to be better as historically in 42 or later on will help the russian side.

But i agree, this "bug" should be repaired, after the blizzard-thing. Such movement in that area sounds mad.
The road-net was to thin in this area, never ever could the german army (or any other army) have moved so far - not even in peacetime.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 4:34:33 PM   
Adnan Meshuggi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I don't think this is realistic at all! As I have pointed out in another thread, I think the game seriously underestimates the difficulties with terrain in this area. These are not nice european woods, this is serious roadless wilderness!


I tend to agree with Tarhunnas, this is not the Ardennes, it seems far too easy for panzers, indeed any large military force, to move through this area. Would be interesting to see some WWII vintage maps of this area...

Just seems like if it were this easy, the Germans would have done this rather than beseiging Lgrad for 900 days?



nope - the germans still had tried to siege leningrad.
Why?
because hitler feard the russian timebombs.
In kiev some timebombs had been used, so hitler feared that in leningrad the whole city would be full of timebombs, causing thousends of axis casulties.

Also, the hick-hack about "what is going on" costs a lot time. But without the try to conquer moscow, the axis could have taken leningrad. instead doing the "right thing" (take leningrad, free one army, shorten your frontline, have a free ride to leningrad so no partians could cost supply in the northern sector, have a good place in blizzard) they tried both and failed.
The siege was the result of this.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 4:48:38 PM   
Redmarkus5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I don't think this is realistic at all! As I have pointed out in another thread, I think the game seriously underestimates the difficulties with terrain in this area. These are not nice european woods, this is serious roadless wilderness!

I live in Sweden and I have visited parts of Russia (though not the exact parts e are talking about here I admit) and I did my military service as a tank platoon commander in similar terrain. You simply cannot drive large mechanised forces through that kind of terrain just like that! Especially not when most of their stuff and supplies come on two-wheel drive trucks not made for off road driving.



100% correct. 5 minutes off the road in these regions and any tank that hasn't shed its tracks is bogged down or hopelessly trying to bulldoze trees...

I have also lived and worked in Sweden, the Baltic States, Russia and the Ukraine. I was also a mech infantry company commander many years ago and there is just no way on earth that an operational unit could make these moves over this terrain in combat conditions and after marching and fighting all the way from the Polish border. As for armour - just forget it. I can only laugh at the idea.

Sorry, but the crazy movement capabilities, the "checker board defense" (total rubbish that needs to be penalized by deducting CV for any unit that doesn't have friendly units on both flanks), the never ending blizzard and the Soviet march into Berlin in 1942 or 43 are all indications of a game that needs some really serious work before it can be described as a convincing representation of WW2 operations in Russia.

I know that will upset a lot of folks, but I'd love to hear from anyone with experience of major combat operations (Senior NCOs and above, please!) who seriously thinks their unit could have made this move in the conditions (equipment, supply, etc.) of 1941 (see below).




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< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 3/15/2011 4:51:16 PM >

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 5:12:50 PM   
Joel Billings


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Status: offline 		To me it's all about the opposition. To really get a sense of how realistic this would be (unless there was a total lack of any kind of roads through the area) we'd have to see the saves at the start of the 2-4 Axis turns that the player used to make the move. What kind of opposition was there. Now the IGO UGO system does present a problem in that in especially poor terrain it might have been possible to react with enough troops to slow down the offensive during a the week in order to allow time to get more reinforcements into the area (see Ardennes, 1944). But it's hard to make definitive statements without seeing the situation, because I think it would be possible to drive through this territory in a week if there was little or no opposition.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 5:13:37 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		If you can't prevent at most 6 mobile units from moving 11-12 hexes through terrain like that, there's something seriously wrong with your defensive strategy.

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Post #: 27
RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 5:30:45 PM   
Apollo11


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Status: offline 		Hi all,

Joel, I think that this is all due to misunderstanding of fact that every HEX based simulation/game has to make compromises...


The HEX is 10 miles in WitE and that is quite big area - let us not forget that!

And this also implies that all roads and bridges are all approximated as well!


Thus the "Heavy Forrest" HEX does not mean that there is no road at all and that the area is 100% superdense impassable forest with trees all next to eachother and impossible to pass even for humans (and that "Clear" HEX is 100% plains)...


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 5:42:12 PM   
Sabre21


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Status: offline 		This was one of Jon's favorite tactics. He was the first tester for WitE. Going thru swamps used to be a lot easier prior to release which made this a reasonable tactic, not anymore if properly defended.

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RE: How realistic is this? - 3/15/2011 5:42:57 PM   
Redmarkus5


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Status: offline 		Gents - you are all missing the point. Nobody has complained when units drive 20 hexes in a turn across the Ukraine.

The issue here is the ACTUAL terrain that exists E and NE of Leningrad in the REAL WORLD. Even with zero opposition, the idea of moving multiple armoured and mech divisions against the grain of the few roads that exist in this region is ludicrous.

I'm still waiting to hear a comment from an ex-military player on this.

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