RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 5:40:21 AM

56ajax

Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline

Thanks everyone; some really good laughs in this; perhaps this should be moved to its own sub folder under Comedy.

And how Mirandas rear end got in here i havent a clue but, Well done, Sir.

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 31

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 6:10:13 AM

JAMiAM

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

And how Mirandas rear end got in here i havent a clue but, Well done, Sir.

Well...she has a hexagon overlay, and if you substitute "Soviet Industry" for "sister's family" in her quoted dialogue you have how I feel in my game against PDH.

Okay...I'm reaching...

(in reply to 56ajax)

Post #: 32

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 6:16:14 AM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

With a hexagon hiney...one must certainly wonder where Moscow is......or not.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to JAMiAM)

Post #: 33

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 7:13:13 AM

kirkgregerson

Posts: 497
Joined: 4/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

PG is the father of all hexfield wargames

You cannot be serious. Certainly not if you've played wargames for 30 years as you've claimed. PG is not even close to the father of hex based wargames. Not even freaking close.

I prefer the OKH symbols myself, but everyone knows the NATO symbols so it wasn't a bad choice for WITE. Little tanks running around? Not even close to appropriate for a division level game.

PG is more like the retarded step child of hex based war games then the father.

Sorry, I need to work in my sensitivity training. ... the 'mentally challenged' step child...

< Message edited by kirkgregerson -- 6/8/2011 7:14:42 AM >

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 34

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 7:26:41 AM

herwin

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

Which symbol system do you want to use? NATO was originally the French system, which America learned in WWI. Everyone else had/has their own systems. (I learned them all at one point in my professional career.)

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Chris10)

Post #: 35

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 9:11:35 AM

Jajusha

Posts: 249
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline

Everyones talking of nato symbols and stuff, i never really understud that. But i love the way the envelopes fight in this game.

(in reply to herwin)

Post #: 36

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 11:04:34 AM

Chris10

Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
Sure, but that was like when I was 12. When you decide to grow up and play a real man's WW2 game, then you'll be ready for WitE. If you need the little girly icons to keep your attention span, then you're probably not cut out for WitE.

Don't take it personal, just my opinions.

If you dont want people to take stuff personal I suggest you stop making adolescent remarks like "when you grow up". My daughter uses this when she has nothing better to say (shes 17).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
You cannot be serious. Certainly not if you've played wargames for 30 years as you've claimed.

There is no need for me to claim something. I state facts and I did not said anything about wargames. I said I played thousands of games in over 30 years. That obviously include wargames but not exclusivly

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
PG is not even close to the father of hex based wargames. Not even freaking close.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
PG is more like the retarded step child of hex based war games then the father

I dont know in which dimension you two live but in the real world universe PG is still played today and people created over 2500 custom scenarios for it and they still do (17 years after its release !) So its impact on follwoing hex-wargames was considerably bigger than the impact of any other hex-based game before...its absolutely ok to consider it the father of a new generation of hexbased wargames while all other hexgames are long forgotten and burried so I assume you are out of your mind and not reliable for your statements or maybe to young to really consider PGs effect on the war-game scene...either way...I dont blame you.

The flash point of PC hex-wargames was without a doubt PG in 94
which combined a remarkably intuitive user interface with a game engine that had enough depth and "chrome" to attract even serious war gamers. Although several levels of abstraction away from a real model of warfare, it made players confront many of the choices actually faced by campaign commanders. It was so good at this, in fact, that Air Command and Staff College (ACSC) actually experimented with using a version of it (Pacific General) as a teaching tool in campaign-level planning.
Beyond this, the game was fun. It provoked a reaction within the gaming community akin to that of Jim Dunnigan's Panzer Blitz (Avalon Hill, 1970), whose popularity back in the early seventies helped create much of today's grognard community and John Hill's Squad Leader (Avalon Hill, 1977), which helped fuel the great board-war-game boom of the late seventies. The war-gaming hobby seems to need a fun, accessible hit every so often to attract new players or re-attract old ones and WITE could be one of these but without an appealing user interface only featuring dry symbols it hardly can live up to its promises which is just a pity.

You guys should really do your homework before cause you came here with empty hands and nothing more than polemic statements without substance

quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
... the 'mentally challenged' step child...

now that you said it...

for those interested I add a link with an interesting article. It talks of the minority who want realism wrecking the profitability of a game.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2340598,00.asp

< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/8/2011 11:14:11 AM >

(in reply to Jajusha)

Post #: 37

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 11:19:21 AM

cookie monster

Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline

Thanks for the essay.

I haven't yet seen anybody supporting your opinion of "Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games".

Maybe just maybe, you are infact of a different opinion and nobody can really see your point.

Do you honestly expect them to redesign the counter to Sprites? Or release them as a Downloadable Content?

Nobody has really asked for it before. Apart from you nobody I know on here has ever considered it a "NO-GO" either.

Wishlist's are quite funny to read, if they give apples somebody always says "The game is broken! and I want Oranges!"

(in reply to Chris10)

Post #: 38

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 11:52:53 AM

Tarhunnas

Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline

Sure, Panzer General was fun, I played it a lot. That does not mean that all other wargames should look like it. Its graphics was right for a beer and pretzels game. WITE is a more serious and realistic game and NATO symbols are appropriate.

I don't really know why I bother to answer this, it is hard to tell if this thread is for real or trolling...

(in reply to cookie monster)

Post #: 39

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 12:04:57 PM

Chris10

Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

Thanks for the essay.

I haven't yet seen anybody supporting your opinion of "Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games".

Maybe just maybe, you are infact of a different opinion and nobody can really see your point.

Do you honestly expect them to redesign the counter to Sprites? Or release them as a Downloadable Content?

Nobody has really asked for it before. Apart from you nobody I know on here has ever considered it a "NO-GO" either.

Wishlist's are quite funny to read, if they give apples somebody always says "The game is broken! and I want Oranges!"

lol...I did not mention that I want the game redesigned, did I ?
Neither I said something about broken. Has this something to do with the point of the topic ?..I dont think so
I said that with the current appearance of ONLY nato symbols it most probably will not appeal on a wider client range except grognards and that this is a reason for me to skip the game ( and I bet for hundreds or thousands of other players too. The thing is they dont sign up on the board just to state that fact ) ,thats all I said. People can like that statement or not and devs can take on the point or not. Its up to them and what they expect out of the hard work they invested...

However..the graphical appearance I described does not need deep changes in the game engine itself...just additional 2d artwork, another zoom level, some pop-up boxes for info and coloured frames around the unit icons to instantly show current strength (ranging from green,yellow, orange to red) so players have not to click units to look for unit stregnth when playing with sprites.
btw I did not said that the nato symbols must go but a combination or a either this or that solution would have been far more player friendly. Player friendly in a sense of not only hardcore players friendly.

You ever thought about the possibility that the fact that nobody complained about nato only symbols may have to do with the composition of the type of players on the board (grognards...) ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
I don't really know why I bother to answer this, it is hard to tell if this thread is for real or trolling...

you know...that statement is just a perfect example of how stubborn and narrow minded people can become when they drift away into fanboism...they become unable to have a mature discussion about a valuable point and on a certain point they start label other people as trolls when they make their stance. Sort of unmature behaviour dont you think? I repeat...I dont say nato symbols must be eliminated but I stand by my point that there really should be a combination of sprites with symbols depending on zoom level or an off/on option so make the game more appealing for no hardcore hex-wargames.

< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/8/2011 12:39:29 PM >

(in reply to cookie monster)

Post #: 40

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 12:11:02 PM

cookie monster

Posts: 1693
Joined: 5/22/2005
From: Birmingham,England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I don't really know why I bother to answer this, it is hard to tell if this thread is for real or trolling...

I think it's real. No matter how a game is designed and presented, some people always want something else.

They usually get blown out of the water by the forum members, usually they have insufficient in game experience and seem to have formulated an opinion without doing any groundwork.

This is common across many forums of various types.

I remember the various threads about Combat Losses, First Winter Rules, Soviet 1-1 Battle Odds Victories, I paid loadsa money for this game and it's bugged!

There all the same.

Best post I ever read was...

"I have seen this game sold at this website and it's priced at this amount, I thought I would mention this for people who don't have much money"

Of course the guy posted this on Matrix's website and was recommending people buy from elsewhere.

The Official response was one of Disapointment.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)

Post #: 41

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 12:36:07 PM

Chris10

Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster
They usually get blown out of the water by the forum members, usually they have insufficient in game experience and seem to have formulated an opinion without doing any groundwork.

This is common across many forums of various types.

my friend..I dont know what you think but this is a true ignorant statement as you know nothing about me. So assuming this or that just shows that you judge out of your ass. In the US this may be called an ad hominem attack (trying to ridicule or belittle others) and is usually a sign that people have no real arguments.
As I said before I played thousand of games in over 30 years. Additionally Iam dev member of one of the greatest and surely the biggest Rome Total War mods yet created and sign responsible for the creation of one of the most challenging RTW roman campaings until today developing the concept, artwork, scripting and coding and I invite you to TWC center forums to have a look at Roma Surrectum II.
Talking about game experince and creation: Whats on your book if I may ask ?

sigh..I expected flaming but I thought this board would be a bit more mature...hope dies last...nevermind

< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/8/2011 12:38:35 PM >

(in reply to cookie monster)

Post #: 42

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 12:36:31 PM

Bourguignon

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/28/2011
Status: offline

I prefer play with nato symbols. I don't focus on graphics: this is not what I'm searching in this kind of game.
But I respect others choices. There is a place for every one
But Wite is not Panzer General and i must say that I have'nt find such a good game since 30 years I'm playing wargames
Best regards to all and congratulation to Wite Team
marc

* excuse my poor English

< Message edited by Bourguignon -- 6/8/2011 12:37:45 PM >

_____________________________

Qui ose vaincra

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 43

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 1:15:15 PM

Manstein63

Posts: 688
Joined: 6/30/2010
Status: offline

I have played HOI as well as the Matrix title Time of Wrath & the 1st thing that I did was change the sprites over to counters. I was brought up with board games SPI's Kursk ADG' World in Flames the Russian Campaign as well as 3rd Reich so when I play a computer wargame I just prefer to have counters rather than sprites. If the developers of WitE did a version with sprites I think that you would become tired of them fairly quickly as this game doesn't really lend itself to that kind of graphic IMHO.
Manstein63

(in reply to Chris10)

Post #: 44

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 1:38:46 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

IMO this game would be totally unplayable with sprites, and I find it difficult (OK, actually impossible) to understand why a serious wargamer would refuse to play a wargame like WitE because of this issue. If sprites are that important to you, and you are a big fan of PG, this is probably not the game for you.

(in reply to Manstein63)

Post #: 45

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 1:46:53 PM

morganbj

Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline

Gee, I played my first hexfield game 50 years ago. It wasn't PG.

_____________________________

Occasionally, and randomly, problems and solutions collide. The probability of these collisions is inversely related to the number of committees working on the solutions. -- Me.

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 46

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 1:49:04 PM

Flaviusx

Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline

Hey, I loved PG back in the day. It was a great game. I also played the heck out of all the other games in that series (Fantasy General was very cool too.)

But sprites in this game don't make much sense to me either.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to morganbj)

Post #: 47

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 1:57:19 PM

Chris10

Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

IMO this game would be totally unplayable with sprites

I actually agree with you when talking abiout the current state of the game, therefore I mentioned the additional zoom level were the single hex-field would become big enough to feature a sprite as in the current max zoom level this would look awkward, you are totally right

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
But sprites in this game don't make much sense to me either.

I talked about basic sprites where one can differ at first sight between division types more easily, not talking about miniaturized battle animations...

< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/8/2011 2:01:17 PM >

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 48

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 1:57:30 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

quote:

You guys should really do your homework before cause you came here with empty hands and nothing more than polemic statements without substance

Hex based wargames have been around since the early seventies. You are the one spouting substance-free crap.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 49

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 2:02:00 PM

Chris10

Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

You guys should really do your homework before cause you came here with empty hands and nothing more than polemic statements without substance

Hex based wargames have been around since the early seventies. You are the one spouting substance-free crap.

we talk about pc games and not board games dude...
you dont even read right and post before thinking

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10
The flash point of PC hex-wargames was without a doubt PG in 94
which combined a remarkably intuitive user interface with a game engine that had enough depth and "chrome" to attract even serious war gamers. Although several levels of abstraction away from a real model of warfare, it made players confront many of the choices actually faced by campaign commanders. It was so good at this, in fact, that Air Command and Staff College (ACSC) actually experimented with using a version of it (Pacific General) as a teaching tool in campaign-level planning.
Beyond this, the game was fun. It provoked a reaction within the gaming community akin to that of Jim Dunnigan's Panzer Blitz (Avalon Hill, 1970), whose popularity back in the early seventies helped create much of today's grognard community and John Hill's Squad Leader (Avalon Hill, 1977), which helped fuel the great board-war-game boom of the late seventies. The war-gaming hobby seems to need a fun, accessible hit every so often to attract new players or re-attract old ones and WITE could be one of these but without an appealing user interface only featuring dry symbols it hardly can live up to its promises which is just a pity.

< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/8/2011 2:07:06 PM >

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 50

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 2:08:50 PM

Flaviusx

Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline

Chris10, this game draws direct inspiration from monster hex based board games; it is a spiritual descendant of these and aimed to appeal to an audience of veteran boardgamers. All this is admitted upfront by the game developers and playtesters like myself, who got our first chops in this sort of thing playing Fire in the East (GDW) and War in the East (SPI) and such.

The intended target audience wouldn't really appreciate sprites for this genre.

That said, if there's enough interest in this sort of thing, maybe somebody could make a sprites mod for the game.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Chris10)

Post #: 51

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 2:10:30 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

quote:

we talk about pc games and not board games dude...
you dont even read right and post before thinking

Games are games. Period. You don't get to define the terms.

The very concept of a hex in a game comes from boardgames. They are more than relevant to the discussion.

< Message edited by Mynok -- 6/8/2011 2:14:10 PM >

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 52

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 2:13:27 PM

Chris10

Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline

deleted...double post...grrr..this board is a bit different from my home one

< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/8/2011 2:24:59 PM >

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 53

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 2:21:08 PM

Chris10

Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline

deleted...double post

< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/8/2011 2:23:47 PM >

(in reply to Chris10)

Post #: 54

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 2:22:30 PM

Chris10

Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Chris10, this game draws direct inspiration from monster hex based board games; it is a spiritual descendant of these and aimed to appeal to an audience of veteran boardgamers. All this is admitted upfront by the game developers and playtesters like myself, who got our first chops in this sort of thing playing Fire in the East (GDW) and War in the East (SPI) and such.

The intended target audience wouldn't really appreciate sprites for this genre.

That said, if there's enough interest in this sort of thing, maybe somebody could make a sprites mod for the game.

I can see, understand and appreciate this point...however..making good sprites and implement them the right way (Optional) does NOT take away the nato symbols but could attract less hardocre players too..is that so hard to understand ?...this topic is not about taking something away but to make the game more accessible to a wider range of clients...after then everybody can play with his nato symbols or sprites or bangers or whatever

Unfortunately the current max zoom does not allow for hex-field sufficient big for feature sprites so modding this is no option as by now as there would be a slight change in the engine needed (of course in the zoomed map too). Then hex fields would be big enough...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

quote:

we talk about pc games and not board games dude...
you dont even read right and post before thinking

Games are games. Period. You don't get to define the terms.

The very concept of a hex in a game comes from boardgames. They are more than relevant to the discussion.

uselss to discuss this as you refuse to take some reasonable positions and just looking for "bashing"

(in reply to Chris10)

Post #: 55

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 2:27:15 PM

Ketza

Posts: 2227
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline

Sprites are for Wargame noobs.

Thats the final say.

(in reply to Chris10)

Post #: 56

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 2:37:59 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10
...however..making good sprites and implement them the right way (Optional) does NOT take away the nato symbols but could attract less hardocre players too..is that so hard to understand ?...this topic is not about taking something away but to make the game more accessible to a wider range of clients...after then everybody can play with his nato symbols or sprites or bangers or whatever

LOL, so just adding sprites would make this game "more accessible to a wider range of clients"? I completely disagree, it would a form of false advertising. If I bought this game expecting something like PG, I would be pretty pissed off, because this game is very very different, and appeals to different types. Just adding sprites won't change that a bit. With that, I'm finished with this thread...

(in reply to Chris10)

Post #: 57

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 3:38:26 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

I like NATO symbols

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 58

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 4:01:21 PM

pompack

Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Hex based wargames have been around since the early seventies.

Surely longer than that. IIRC AH's Gettysburg was a hex game; that was about 1961

(in reply to Mynok)

Post #: 59

RE: Nato Symbols are a total NO-GO for WWII games - 6/8/2011 4:02:36 PM

Theng

Posts: 259
Joined: 12/13/2002
Status: offline

If there would be significant amount of demand for sprites, someone would have created such mod already. The great thing about this game is that you can make a mod that takes care of the visual overlay. While you ask for an additional zoom level, this might be counterproductive since it will provide a microscopic view of a macro problem. In general, sprites do not offer the information density that tile symbols (NATO or their predecessors) offer. In a game with such huge amount of data that needs to be visually presented, information density is of huge importance.

PS: You did not help your case, by describing PG as father of computer wargames. While it was certainly popular, its popularity was due to its deliberate and self-admitted "beer and pretzels" approach to computer wargaming, which was already a more than a decades old genre. Please view War in Russia as a free game on this site as a predecessor to this game, significantly preceeding PG. This game, with all due respect, is not a beer and pretzels game. There is room for both, but putting a beer and pretzels veneer over it, does not make a lot of sense. Never the less, I am sure nobody will object to you creating such a mod for your and other people's enjoyment.

_____________________________

Molon Labe!

(in reply to JocMeister)

Post #: 60