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RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2013 9:03:56 PM

Terminus

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From: Denmark
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Sometimes things just catch fire because reasons.

Also, UNP.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 7/15/2013 9:15:36 PM >

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Post #: 20641

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2013 9:13:33 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

Hi Walloc,

I think you'll find that I rarely miss the opportunity to posit on these issues. I don't let an absence of facts get in my way either.

It (economic-motivated sabotage / adulteration) is commonplace. Sometimes workers are just angry with their employer. Sometimes they take the opportunity to 'double down' by using their position (with access) to blackmail their employer or somehow score against the bigger "fish".

Everyone is on tenderhooks re: Boeing right now-will the battery replacements work? Someone striving to damage their brand or consumer confidence in the brand would use a fire as a means of instilling this doubt and (maybe?) profiting from it.

Such concern saw the stock drop $9 in Friday trading before recovering. That corresponds to an intraday loss of market cap of about USD $6.7B. A market-driven panic sale. Such panickey moves are subject to abuse for personal gain.

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Post #: 20642

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2013 9:34:40 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Sometimes things just catch fire because reasons.

Also, UNP.

And airplanes most of all.

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Post #: 20643

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2013 9:38:44 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Hi Walloc,

I think you'll find that I rarely miss the opportunity to posit on these issues. I don't let an absence of facts get in my way either.

It (economic-motivated sabotage / adulteration) is commonplace. Sometimes workers are just angry with their employer. Sometimes they take the opportunity to 'double down' by using their position (with access) to blackmail their employer or somehow score against the bigger "fish".

Everyone is on tenderhooks re: Boeing right now-will the battery replacements work? Someone striving to damage their brand or consumer confidence in the brand would use a fire as a means of instilling this doubt and (maybe?) profiting from it.

Such concern saw the stock drop $9 in Friday trading before recovering. That corresponds to an intraday loss of market cap of about USD $6.7B. A market-driven panic sale. Such panickey moves are subject to abuse for personal gain.

Sorry CB. I have to disagree. Too many years of government service has caused me to chant this mantra when ever anyone suggest conspiracy. "Never assume malice when incompetence is likely.

Airplanes burn quite nicely (and easily). Especially when human being's are in near proximity.

I would be very interested in how many wiring bundles are present in the affected area.

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Post #: 20644

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2013 9:59:35 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

Just ONE short circuit.

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Post #: 20645

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2013 10:09:28 PM

nashvillen

Posts: 3836
Joined: 7/3/2006
From: Christiana, TN
Status: offline

Magnesium burns quite well and even more so when water is applied. There was a lot of magnesium in the B-29s according to a nice gentleman I met on my tour of FiFi. He said they had lots of fun with the scraps from what they used to fix the fuselage with.

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Post #: 20646

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2013 10:15:00 PM

Dixie

Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Airplanes burn quite nicely (and easily). Especially when human being's are in near proximity.

Speaking of burning aeroplanes, the thing to really make your multi-million dollar flying machine ignite nicely is kapton insulation. As widely used on the mighty Tristar. And maybe the VC-10 but no-one was quite sure when I was there. It doesn't really help that the stuff they build aeroplanes out of tends to burn anyway. Aluminium burns rather well as do a lot of composites. The composites are also good for releasing nasty stuff into the air as well.

Lets face it, Steve is probably fairly close with his theory on incompetence. If you ever actually manage to read the safety notes and operation manuals for an aeroplane you'll be surprised at the number of times you question why they needed to put that particular warning in. But someone, somewhere has been stupid enough in the past...

I suppose that a good thing about the VC-10 was that it was largely manufactured from large chunks of stainless steel. No chance of that burning. There was also no electrical wiring. The engine were controlled by a direct, mechanical, link between the flight deck and the engines. And all the instrument readouts were poerformed by little goblins that ran between the various systems and the engineer's panel

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Post #: 20647

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2013 10:30:32 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

And now...

CATS

IN

SPAAAACCEEEEE....

(Pigeons too!)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=151_1373721053

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Post #: 20648

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/15/2013 11:45:17 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Hi Walloc,

I think you'll find that I rarely miss the opportunity to posit on these issues. I don't let an absence of facts get in my way either.

It (economic-motivated sabotage / adulteration) is commonplace. Sometimes workers are just angry with their employer. Sometimes they take the opportunity to 'double down' by using their position (with access) to blackmail their employer or somehow score against the bigger "fish".

Everyone is on tenderhooks re: Boeing right now-will the battery replacements work? Someone striving to damage their brand or consumer confidence in the brand would use a fire as a means of instilling this doubt and (maybe?) profiting from it.

Such concern saw the stock drop $9 in Friday trading before recovering. That corresponds to an intraday loss of market cap of about USD $6.7B. A market-driven panic sale. Such panickey moves are subject to abuse for personal gain.

Sorry CB. I have to disagree. Too many years of government service has caused me to chant this mantra when ever anyone suggest conspiracy. "Never assume malice when incompetence is likely.

Airplanes burn quite nicely (and easily). Especially when human being's are in near proximity.

I would be very interested in how many wiring bundles are present in the affected area.

I hear ya, Steve. I think a mechanical fault is a very reasonable (and likely) outcome here. I certainly wouldn't overlook incompetence as a more likely cause. I also want to make it clear that economically-motivated adulteration or sabotage is usually not a conspiracy per se, so much as an individual bad actor causing harm where they have sensitive access.

I'm very curious to see what the NTSB and friends will find. I do find it at least somewhat interesting that there haven't been any press releases from them or even preliminary publications of findings. Yet they've been on task for at least 3 days now.

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Post #: 20649

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 3:34:12 AM

Victory is mine

Posts: 68
Joined: 6/8/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

Speaking of burning aeroplanes...

Here I was getting ready for a thread on Japanese bombers.

(in reply to Dixie)

Post #: 20650

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 3:38:56 AM

Victory is mine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510
I didn't realize the AI was coded to occupy Australia?

The exact words of Prime Minister Curtin.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 20651

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 3:41:09 AM

Victory is mine

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Joined: 6/8/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

That's probably a good way to give yourself a challenge as the Allies and make for an interesting game vs. the AI.

That was my thinking. We'll see how long the challenge lasts. Hopefully long enough for me to learn the game well enough to start a PBEM game.

(in reply to USSAmerica)

Post #: 20652

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 7:25:42 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Nice schematics, Leo.� The fire looks as though it burned through right in the area of the crew's rear quarters.� Steve's 'smoking' observation may not be so far off the mark.� Of course, it could also have been someone intentionally ****ing with the airline in the interests of sticking one in the eye of the great Satan and its industrial efforts too.�

Who knows?� I'm confident that the NTSB and on-site investigation will uncover the truth.

What worries me much more Andre, is the smaller picture of the 787 wins in flight in upper right corner (i.e. the wing flex on this aircraft is enormous

)!

Leo "Apollo11"

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 20653

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 7:26:50 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

I think we misunderstood Martin!

I don't approve of people being there at all!

But I also think that landing 40 million Euro worth warplane at the strict beginning of the runway (i.e. on "Piano keys") is really not necessary... why not aiming 100+ meters up the runway - it is so much safer and the runway is long enough...

No worries, in that case I'm sorry if my post felt like I was aiming an attack at you.

As far as I'm concerned (from a non-pilot perspective) it's no problem, the plane is down safely with no damage. Would there be any issue if the plane had landed on the piano keys if the runway was 100m further away from the fence? It might not be necessary, but it's down safely. If nothing else, it builds confidence in the pilot that he can land on a short runway if needed.
If we're honest about it, the whole concept of an airshow is totally unnecessary, but it's an excuse to show off as pilots do.

No worries mate!

Leo "Apollo11"

P.S.
I somehow missed this post yesterday...

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Dixie)

Post #: 20654

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 7:42:17 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Nice schematics, Leo.� The fire looks as though it burned through right in the area of the crew's rear quarters.� Steve's 'smoking' observation may not be so far off the mark.� Of course, it could also have been someone intentionally ****ing with the airline in the interests of sticking one in the eye of the great Satan and its industrial efforts too.�

Who knows?� I'm confident that the NTSB and on-site investigation will uncover the truth.

What worries me much more Andre, is the smaller picture of the 787 wins in flight in upper right corner (i.e. the wing flex on this aircraft is enormous )!

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 20655

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 10:26:01 AM

fodder

Posts: 2160
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Daytona Beach
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Good Morning!

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Post #: 20656

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 1:30:35 PM

USSAmerica

Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
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Good morning - Tithe.

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Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 20657

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 2:13:02 PM

nashvillen

Posts: 3836
Joined: 7/3/2006
From: Christiana, TN
Status: offline

Good Morning!

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Post #: 20658

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 2:20:55 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
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From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Nice schematics, Leo.� The fire looks as though it burned through right in the area of the crew's rear quarters.� Steve's 'smoking' observation may not be so far off the mark.� Of course, it could also have been someone intentionally ****ing with the airline in the interests of sticking one in the eye of the great Satan and its industrial efforts too.�

Who knows?� I'm confident that the NTSB and on-site investigation will uncover the truth.

What worries me much more Andre, is the smaller picture of the 787 wins in flight in upper right corner (i.e. the wing flex on this aircraft is enormous )!

Leo "Apollo11"

A flapping wing gives a much more comfortable ride. A stiff wing (Such as in the Lockheed P-3 or Electra) gives a much rougher ride. As it was explained to me , "would you rather have the wing go up and down , or the fuselage (with you in it) go up and down?"

Besides, there is nothing wrong with "flapping wings" Birds do it all the time.

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Post #: 20659

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 3:26:06 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
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Good morning tithe.

That's some amazing engineering going into those wings. I imagine that that *does* give a smoother flight, still it's got to be unsettling to the uninitiated.

ETA: Steve, turn's back to you now, right? I've lost track. I'm not expecting it back for the time being, per our discussions, but just wanted to make sure that you've got 'the ball'.

ETA II: How's the back?

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 7/16/2013 3:28:26 PM >

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Post #: 20660

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 3:29:10 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

A "Nashvillen off by 10 posts" INP tithe.

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Post #: 20661

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 3:35:35 PM

nashvillen

Posts: 3836
Joined: 7/3/2006
From: Christiana, TN
Status: offline

Isn't it great when you can laugh at yourself almost as hard as those around you?

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Post #: 20662

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 3:41:56 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Nice schematics, Leo.� The fire looks as though it burned through right in the area of the crew's rear quarters.� Steve's 'smoking' observation may not be so far off the mark.� Of course, it could also have been someone intentionally ****ing with the airline in the interests of sticking one in the eye of the great Satan and its industrial efforts too.�

Who knows?� I'm confident that the NTSB and on-site investigation will uncover the truth.

What worries me much more Andre, is the smaller picture of the 787 wins in flight in upper right corner (i.e. the wing flex on this aircraft is enormous )!

A flapping wing gives a much more comfortable ride. A stiff wing (Such as in the Lockheed P-3 or Electra) gives a much rougher ride. As it was explained to me , "would you rather have the wing go up and down , or the fuselage (with you in it) go up and down?" Besides, there is nothing wrong with "flapping wings" Birds do it all the time.

Steve, I understand the physics... but still... 26 feet (i.e. about 7+ meters) of wing flap is very unsettling to watch...

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to AW1Steve)

Post #: 20663

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 3:47:21 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Good morning tithe.

That's some amazing engineering going into those wings. I imagine that that *does* give a smoother flight, still it's got to be unsettling to the uninitiated.

ETA: Steve, turn's back to you now, right? I've lost track. I'm not expecting it back for the time being, per our discussions, but just wanted to make sure that you've got 'the ball'.

ETA II: How's the back?

I really don't know Andre. I'm sitting at a laptop surrounded by boxes and movers packing said boxes.

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Post #: 20664

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 3:58:19 PM

AW1Steve

Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Nice schematics, Leo.� The fire looks as though it burned through right in the area of the crew's rear quarters.� Steve's 'smoking' observation may not be so far off the mark.� Of course, it could also have been someone intentionally ****ing with the airline in the interests of sticking one in the eye of the great Satan and its industrial efforts too.�

Who knows?� I'm confident that the NTSB and on-site investigation will uncover the truth.

What worries me much more Andre, is the smaller picture of the 787 wins in flight in upper right corner (i.e. the wing flex on this aircraft is enormous )!

A flapping wing gives a much more comfortable ride. A stiff wing (Such as in the Lockheed P-3 or Electra) gives a much rougher ride. As it was explained to me , "would you rather have the wing go up and down , or the fuselage (with you in it) go up and down?" Besides, there is nothing wrong with "flapping wings" Birds do it all the time.

Steve, I understand the physics... but still... 26 feet (i.e. about 7+ meters) of wing flap is very unsettling to watch...

Leo "Apollo11"

Not nearly as unsettling being in the fuselage and having it "flap" the same amount.

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Post #: 20665

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 5:23:03 PM

Dixie

Posts: 10303
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From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Steve, I understand the physics... but still... 26 feet (i.e. about 7+ meters) of wing flap is very unsettling to watch...

Leo "Apollo11"

It's pretty normal to some extent, even an aeroplane without the feature will do it unless it has a very heavy duty spar. On the Tristar it was necessary to fill the outboard wing tanks in order to minimise the effects of the lift on the wingtips. Otherwise it was theoretically possible for a heavily laden Tristar to lose the wings as they separated from the fuselage.

We do something similar with the Lancaster as well in order to minimise the stress on the wing spars.

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Post #: 20666

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 5:24:55 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie
Otherwise it was theoretically possible for a heavily laden Tristar to lose the wings as they separated from the fuselage.

Wouldn't this loss of drag improve airworthiness and top speed of the aircraft?

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Post #: 20667

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 5:25:35 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

For military aircraft, the B-52 and U-2 have very impressive wing flexing.

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Post #: 20668

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 5:27:41 PM

Dixie

Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie
Otherwise it was theoretically possible for a heavily laden Tristar to lose the wings as they separated from the fuselage.

Wouldn't this loss of drag improve airworthiness and top speed of the aircraft?

It's an interesting theory. On the one hand you've lost probably somewhere in the region of 15 tons of fuel plus assorted wing structure. On the other hand you've lost forty plus feet of wing structure. Potentially more if you're really heavily laden. Maybe a sort of Sports Tristar?

Rumours are that this is how Supermarine came up with the clipped wing Spitfires.

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Post #: 20669

RE: THE THREAD!!! - 7/16/2013 5:29:18 PM

Dixie

Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

I'm going to my first 'proper' air show in many years on Saturday. Flying in style as well.