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RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 3:01:58 PM

feelotraveller

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

If SoI was done logically this exploit would not have been. Can you remember that situation in rots?

I remember the situation in RotS where you had to colonise everything which possibly could be in systems you already owned so that the computer would not.

Maybe you played a different game?

(in reply to WiZz)

Post #: 61

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 3:14:20 PM

WiZz

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
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quote:

C'mon, man.. It's common sense. The AI doesn't do it. Those planets don't even show up on your list by default.

What about button "Show low-quality planet"?

And listen with attention how it sounds. "Don't use some tactics, because AI is fool and can't handle with it."
I want repeat some thing. DW is STRATEGY. This genre of games provides thinking a lot about different tactics and ways how to kill enemy more effectively. And when I hear that don't use this thing, because you easy win, although game has a theoretical possibility to use it properly, I think that this game is not very good.

quote:

I remember the situation in RotS where you had to colonise everything which possibly could be in systems you already owned so that the computer would not. Maybe you played a different game?

I don't know. In my games AI colonized everything.

< Message edited by WiZz -- 12/8/2011 3:22:34 PM >

(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)

Post #: 62

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 3:20:09 PM

Gelatinous Cube

Posts: 696
Joined: 10/26/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

quote:

C'mon, man.. It's common sense. The AI doesn't do it. Those planets don't even show up on your list by default.

What about button "Show low-quality planet"?

And listen with attention how it sounds. "Don't use some tactics, because AI is fool and can't handle with it."
I want repeat some thing. DW is STRATEGY. This genre of games provides thinking a lot about different tactics and ways how to kill enemy more effectively. And when I hear that don't use this thing, because you easy win, although game has a theoretical possibility to use it properly, I think that this game is not very good.

If you're looking for an AI that compete with humans, you better go back to Chess. DW is way too complex for that. I find the game challenging, but it will always be through abritrary restrictions that this game can EVER be challenging. We are a very long ways from AI that can do what DWs AI needs to do, and do it the way a human would do it.

I point you to AI War.. the best strategic AI available for a game of this scope. The entire concept revolves around the AI having a serious advantage over you in every concievable way, and winning requires dozens of hours slogging through an uphill battle. It is lots of fun, but not DW. If you want that kind of challenge, the only way you will get it in DW is to change your starting settings to something similar.

Otherwise, just enjoy the incredibly complex beast that is DW for what it is: The most complete 4x game so far. As has always been true, for every 4x game EVER, the AI will always fail to make the same kind of strategic decisions that you do. Arguing that is pointless, unless you've got some cool AI-coding methods that nobody has ever heard of.

(in reply to WiZz)

Post #: 63

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 3:43:38 PM

WiZz

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube
If you're looking for an AI that compete with humans, you better go back to Chess. DW is way too complex for that. I find the game challenging, but it will always be through abritrary restrictions that this game can EVER be challenging. We are a very long ways from AI that can do what DWs AI needs to do, and do it the way a human would do it.

Please, don't tell me about AI in DW. It's very effective and in some situation you must think well about your tactics.
But implementing SoI makes more easily your win. I just asked to do it more complex, connect it harder with diplomacy, empire reputation and MAKE IT LOGICALLY. Declare war - colonize - make peace. Where is logic? Where are other possibilities?
I prefer something else, more complex, like this.
First scenario - colonizing on enemy territory - neighbor is angry, he declares war. Second scenario - colonizing on enemy territory - neighbor is angry, but we give him some compensation for exchange.
Third scenario - we buy colonizing rights - colonize planet lawfully - everybody happy.
So we have 3 scenarios instead 1. I think, it more interesting than we have now.

If it's too difficult, just add a button that turn SoI off.

(in reply to Gelatinous Cube)

Post #: 64

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 3:49:33 PM

the1sean

Posts: 854
Joined: 5/11/2010
From: Texas, USA
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I must weigh in on these topics.

SOI and the ability for colonization/mining within SOI:
I really really like the addition of SOI, and I think that it models territorial brinkmanship pretty dang well. I challenge someone to show me a vastly superior model already successfully implemented in another strategy game. That said, I can understand the argument for the ability to colonize within another empire's SOI without declaring war, and I agree that empires should be able to colonize/mine within SOI without war but that there should be an immediate relations and reputation hit.

Artificially limiting colonization distance:
I absolutely disagree with this, for both "realism" and gameplay reasons.
Realism - similar to other examples already given, the Vikings colonized when and where they wanted to. They colonized nearby areas within enemy territory (i.e: SOI) likeNormandy France. They also colonized far away and disjointed areas on the other side of huge enemy empires; Greenland, Iceland, and America.
Gameplay - currently colonization is only restricted by technological ability (range calculated from hyperdrive and fuel storage techs), not an arbitrary distance. An example given arguing for an arbitrary limit was Master of Orion 1 and 2. Actually, this is not how colonization in MoO worked. Master of Orion colonization was only limited by fuel range, and even that could be greatly extended by outposts and wormholes. I often colonized or outposted on the other side of enemy empires. In DW, the AI does it pretty dang well, and I see no way that gameplay would be improved with artificial limits.

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Post #: 65

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 3:53:20 PM

Cauldyth

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Diplomacy is the one aspect of these games which I love, but it's also the one aspect that's the most difficult for an AI to judge. An AI can be great and optimizing numbers - even better than all but the most diligent human players - since it can micromanage every research setting, tax setting, happiness percentage, etc. Unfortunately, it's "soft" things like diplomacy that it has the most difficulty with. It's very difficult for an AI to assess more fuzzy situations, such as deciding the effective worth of a particular colony in a strategic sense, or deciding if it's in its best interests to offer a human player colonization rights.

quote:

If it's too difficult, just add a button that turn SoI off.

Fortunately, based Erik's comment below

quote:

Just to put everyone at ease, one of the things we're considering for Spheres of Influence is a setting that allows you to adjust their strength or weakness to your liking.

it sounds like they're doing just that. Then we'll all be happy.

(in reply to WiZz)

Post #: 66

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 3:58:22 PM

Cauldyth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean
Artificially limiting colonization distance:
I absolutely disagree with this, for both "realism" and gameplay reasons.
Realism - similar to other examples already given, the Vikings colonized when and where they wanted to. They colonized nearby areas within enemy territory (i.e: SOI) likeNormandy France. They also colonized far away and disjointed areas on the other side of huge enemy empires; Greenland, Iceland, and America.

Wholeheartedly agree. Let economics and defense considerations decide whether or not you've overextended. If you have, then you'll pay the penalty of a stretched economy and increased vulnerability to your opponents.

Having a fragmented empire, if that's what you choose to do, raises all sorts of interesting scenarios about "defending the remote colonies" that make the game more interesting.

(in reply to the1sean)

Post #: 67

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 4:12:07 PM

MasterChief

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hal9000

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterChief
Hmmm... this brings up an interesting possibility.

First - I don�t agree with limiting colonization limit. If your fuel allows for long rang colonization then it should be allowed. Examples in history include the ancient Phoenicians and Greeks who colonized to the extreme limits of their technology (and yes this made for some messy boarders and diplomacy).

However, there should be tradeoffs. Besides an increase in maintenance, colonies at extreme range should be more susceptible to rebellion and establishing independent colonies (Ancient Carthage and the not so ancient USA are great examples)

So before chartering that colony ship you would need to consider if it is worth the extra money, naval and troop presence and governor character assignment that would be needed to keep the colony in the empire.

wouldn't the correct comparison to real life be phoenicians and greeks colonizing south east asia and ancient china grabbing some colonies in europe, whilst the arabs colonize every available desert between mojave and gobi cause they are the only ones capable of living there

Perhaps if the comparison is directly related to distance and nothing else. But there was more involved in this scenario. The game allows for your ships to travel a particular distance based of your technology. For the ancient Phonecians level of technology, colonizing the Atlantic coast of Spain was similar to a DW colony ship colonizing a planet at the extreme range of it's fuel supply. The main point is, at least for humans, history has proven that ambition is only limited by technolgical barriers. Good discussion!

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Post #: 68

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 4:20:08 PM

feelotraveller

Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

SOI and the ability for colonization/mining within SOI:
I really really like the addition of SOI, and I think that it models territorial brinkmanship pretty dang well. I challenge someone to show me a vastly superior model already successfully implemented in another strategy game. That said, I can understand the argument for the ability to colonize within another empire's SOI without declaring war, and I agree that empires should be able to colonize/mine within SOI without war but that there should be an immediate relations and reputation hit.

Completely with you on the distant colonisation issue.

I don't think that mining/colonisation should happen in SoI. I think war should need to be declared and the colony (or colonies) producing the sphere of influence should need to be exterminated/conquered for you to be able to mine/colonise.

If this is to be allowed as you suggest without a war declaration at all, then I want to be able to attack any mining bases within my sphere of influence at no reputation penalty and without the need to declare war. Same thing with newly established colonies (in my former SoI) say for the period of a year even though they now produce their own sphere of influence. Otherwise I am paying reputation to enforce my sphere of influence which makes a mockery of it existing in the first place.

But really you just shouldn't be able to mine/colonise in a sphere of influence. You should have to remove/counter that influence before doing so.

(in reply to the1sean)

Post #: 69

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 5:40:12 PM

Torgrim

Posts: 37
Joined: 5/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL:Artificially limiting colonization distance:
I absolutely disagree with this, for both "realism" and gameplay reasons.
Realism - similar to other examples already given, the Vikings colonized when and where they wanted to. They colonized nearby areas within enemy territory (i.e: SOI) likeNormandy France. They also colonized far away and disjointed areas on the other side of huge enemy empires; Greenland, Iceland, and America.

First of all The French gave Rollo Normandy so they would stop raiding France, it was a peace treaty.
Second, did the Vikings sail all the way to America to build a up a colony and skipped Island,Greenland ect?
No, it took them 200 years to reach America, the first real Viking colonies outside Scandinavia were in close proximity and gradually they increased their range of colonial sphere.
Amongst the first West colonies were Orkney and Shetland, then England, then Iceland then Greenland and last America.
Vikings to the east started colonizing Baltic coast first then went inland slowly till they reach Kiev area.

What i mean with this Viking example is that they slowly expanded, not like in DW where AI Empires plants colonies all over the map.

(in reply to the1sean)

Post #: 70

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 6:00:58 PM

the1sean

Posts: 854
Joined: 5/11/2010
From: Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

I just modded the game with a migration 400% buff and ran it for a while.New colonies were getting 700+miliion people and 100 development and the SOI hardly moved.It seem only massive 10000m colonies really effect it.New colonies in a normal game are never going to reach that.I really hope this is fixed.

Ashbery76, what were all the settings changes that you made for that mod?

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Post #: 71

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 6:04:50 PM

the1sean

Posts: 854
Joined: 5/11/2010
From: Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller

If this is to be allowed as you suggest without a war declaration at all, then I want to be able to attack any mining bases within my sphere of influence at no reputation penalty and without the need to declare war. Same thing with newly established colonies (in my former SoI) say for the period of a year even though they now produce their own sphere of influence. Otherwise I am paying reputation to enforce my sphere of influence which makes a mockery of it existing in the first place.

I suggested a harsh reputation penalty for colonizing/mining within SOI. When you attack opponents with poor reputation your reputation hits are much lower than rep hits for attacking an opponent with an awesome rep. So long story short it should actually work out well.

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Post #: 72

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 6:10:31 PM

the1sean

Posts: 854
Joined: 5/11/2010
From: Texas, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Torgrim

quote:

ORIGINAL:Artificially limiting colonization distance:
I absolutely disagree with this, for both "realism" and gameplay reasons.
Realism - similar to other examples already given, the Vikings colonized when and where they wanted to. They colonized nearby areas within enemy territory (i.e: SOI) likeNormandy France. They also colonized far away and disjointed areas on the other side of huge enemy empires; Greenland, Iceland, and America.

First of all The French gave Rollo Normandy so they would stop raiding France, it was a peace treaty.
Second, did the Vikings sail all the way to America to build a up a colony and skipped Island,Greenland ect?
No, it took them 200 years to reach America, the first real Viking colonies outside Scandinavia were in close proximity and gradually they increased their range of colonial sphere.
Amongst the first West colonies were Orkney and Shetland, then England, then Iceland then Greenland and last America.
Vikings to the east started colonizing Baltic coast first then went inland slowly till they reach Kiev area.

What i mean with this Viking example is that they slowly expanded, not like in DW where AI Empires plants colonies all over the map.

The reason they had to progressively expand outward is because of tech limitations, which is also modeled in DW, but my main point is that they colonized out way past other major powers SoI. Whether they did so through previous colonies within other major nation SoI is irrelevant to my point, and actually supports my first point about colonization.

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Post #: 73

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 6:15:25 PM

Torgrim

Posts: 37
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

quote:

ORIGINAL: Torgrim

quote:

ORIGINAL:Artificially limiting colonization distance:
I absolutely disagree with this, for both "realism" and gameplay reasons.
Realism - similar to other examples already given, the Vikings colonized when and where they wanted to. They colonized nearby areas within enemy territory (i.e: SOI) likeNormandy France. They also colonized far away and disjointed areas on the other side of huge enemy empires; Greenland, Iceland, and America.

First of all The French gave Rollo Normandy so they would stop raiding France, it was a peace treaty.
Second, did the Vikings sail all the way to America to build a up a colony and skipped Island,Greenland ect?
No, it took them 200 years to reach America, the first real Viking colonies outside Scandinavia were in close proximity and gradually they increased their range of colonial sphere.
Amongst the first West colonies were Orkney and Shetland, then England, then Iceland then Greenland and last America.
Vikings to the east started colonizing Baltic coast first then went inland slowly till they reach Kiev area.

What i mean with this Viking example is that they slowly expanded, not like in DW where AI Empires plants colonies all over the map.

The reason they had to progressively expand outward is because of tech limitations

The reason as always was supply nothing at all about tech limitations.

< Message edited by Torgrim -- 12/8/2011 6:25:44 PM >

(in reply to the1sean)

Post #: 74

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 6:43:30 PM

Malevolence

Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube
If you're looking for an AI that compete with humans, you better go back to Chess. DW is way too complex for that. I find the game challenging, but it will always be through abritrary restrictions that this game can EVER be challenging. We are a very long ways from AI that can do what DWs AI needs to do, and do it the way a human would do it.

I point you to AI War.. the best strategic AI available for a game of this scope. The entire concept revolves around the AI having a serious advantage over you in every concievable way, and winning requires dozens of hours slogging through an uphill battle. It is lots of fun, but not DW. If you want that kind of challenge, the only way you will get it in DW is to change your starting settings to something similar.

Otherwise, just enjoy the incredibly complex beast that is DW for what it is: The most complete 4x game so far. As has always been true, for every 4x game EVER, the AI will always fail to make the same kind of strategic decisions that you do. Arguing that is pointless, unless you've got some cool AI-coding methods that nobody has ever heard of.

actually making an AI to kick human players' butts every time is easy for a game like DW. The art is making the AI challenging for most people by almost kicking their butts.

... the technique is called a multi-level agent behavior and decision support system.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 12/8/2011 6:48:36 PM >

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Post #: 75

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 6:44:13 PM

feelotraveller

Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller

If this is to be allowed as you suggest without a war declaration at all, then I want to be able to attack any mining bases within my sphere of influence at no reputation penalty and without the need to declare war. Same thing with newly established colonies (in my former SoI) say for the period of a year even though they now produce their own sphere of influence. Otherwise I am paying reputation to enforce my sphere of influence which makes a mockery of it existing in the first place.

I suggested a harsh reputation penalty for colonizing/mining within SOI. When you attack opponents with poor reputation your reputation hits are much lower than rep hits for attacking an opponent with an awesome rep. So long story short it should actually work out well.

No way. It should not cost me any reputation to enforce my sphere of influence. In fact the argument could be made that I should get a reputation bonus for enforcing it. (Or maybe the 'lawful' trait?

)

(in reply to the1sean)

Post #: 76

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 6:51:49 PM

WiZz

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller
I don't think that mining/colonisation should happen in SoI. I think war should need to be declared and the colony (or colonies) producing the sphere of influence should need to be exterminated/conquered for you to be able to mine/colonise.

If this is to be allowed as you suggest without a war declaration at all, then I want to be able to attack any mining bases within my sphere of influence at no reputation penalty and without the need to declare war. Same thing with newly established colonies (in my former SoI) say for the period of a year even though they now produce their own sphere of influence. Otherwise I am paying reputation to enforce my sphere of influence which makes a mockery of it existing in the first place.

But really you just shouldn't be able to mine/colonise in a sphere of influence. You should have to remove/counter that influence before doing so.

Please, explain me, what real thing can prevent me from mining or colonizing in enemy SoI?

quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller
If this is to be allowed as you suggest without a war declaration at all, then I want to be able to attack any mining bases within my sphere of influence at no reputation penalty and without the need to declare war. Same thing with newly established colonies (in my former SoI) say for the period of a year even though they now produce their own sphere of influence. Otherwise I am paying reputation to enforce my sphere of influence which makes a mockery of it existing in the first place.

What did I propose?

quote:

- Permit colonization and mining in SoI, but with big reputation/relation hit. The ships of intruder can be destroyed without warnings and reputation of defender is not affected.

(in reply to feelotraveller)

Post #: 77

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 6:52:43 PM

Malevolence

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Joined: 4/3/2010
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since we can argue whatever fantasy ideas we like--- I wouldn't have a 'reputation' system at all. your relationship would be a complex web of bilateral and multilateral relationships based on actions, consequences, and standings (viewpoints) between factions.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 12/8/2011 6:53:48 PM >

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Post #: 78

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 6:54:26 PM

feelotraveller

Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube
If you're looking for an AI that compete with humans, you better go back to Chess. DW is way too complex for that. I find the game challenging, but it will always be through abritrary restrictions that this game can EVER be challenging. We are a very long ways from AI that can do what DWs AI needs to do, and do it the way a human would do it.

I point you to AI War.. the best strategic AI available for a game of this scope. The entire concept revolves around the AI having a serious advantage over you in every concievable way, and winning requires dozens of hours slogging through an uphill battle. It is lots of fun, but not DW. If you want that kind of challenge, the only way you will get it in DW is to change your starting settings to something similar.

Otherwise, just enjoy the incredibly complex beast that is DW for what it is: The most complete 4x game so far. As has always been true, for every 4x game EVER, the AI will always fail to make the same kind of strategic decisions that you do. Arguing that is pointless, unless you've got some cool AI-coding methods that nobody has ever heard of.

actually making an AI to kick human players' butts every time is easy for a game like DW. The art is making the AI challenging for most people by almost kicking their butts.

Only if the computer is playing by different rules than the human. Usual tricks are omniscience and giving heaps of bonuses. But on a level playing field an experienced human will walk all over it.

On the other hand you are entirely correct. The point is for the computer to give us a fun game and that means creating a certain level of challenge which is neither too hard nor too easy (amongst other things).

But remember the computer program is not intelligent...

(in reply to Malevolence)

Post #: 79

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 6:57:13 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
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I am in total agreement with the present SOI system in the sence that you cannot build mines in it.This is sovereign territory and war is the only way to get it.If you decide to put some Marines in the urals you are not going to get bad reputation or -10 relations,you gonna get shot up.

< Message edited by ASHBERY76 -- 12/8/2011 6:59:05 PM >

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Post #: 80

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 7:10:45 PM

WiZz

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
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Sovereign territory. In vast, empty space. Listen how it sounds. I lol'd...
How can you guard your own borders? The ships will be not enough. Monitoring station? Possible, but I met some extra large empire, which borders cover by scanners is very, very difficult...

< Message edited by WiZz -- 12/8/2011 7:15:05 PM >

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Post #: 81

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 7:14:30 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz

Sovereign territory. In vast, empty space. Listen how it sounds. I lol'd...

You do not control empty space,you control the assets in the system.Is it that hard to grasp.

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Post #: 82

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 7:15:50 PM

feelotraveller

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I guess it does spoil the realism of having Teekans and Kiadians and Ugnari and Wekkarus and Zenox...

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Post #: 83

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 7:17:48 PM

WiZz

Posts: 372
Joined: 9/28/2011
From: Ukraine
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What about empty system? There is no scanners. How you know that enemy was there?

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Post #: 84

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 7:26:34 PM

MasterChief

Posts: 159
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: The Hundred Fathom Curve
Status: offline

Perhaps the idea of SoI and sovereign territory is farfetched when considering space ... but so is so much other stuff associated with a sci-fi game or movie, and this is sci-fi, not science journal. Boarders and sovereign territory worked in Star Trek (arguably one the most successful sci-fi collections ever) because it was just plausible enough to suspend disbelief and provided a perspective we could relate to.

What is so unbelieavable about a civilaztion, that has accrued FTL capability, declaring that no one can mine or colonize within a hunderd ligth years radius?

Of course just declaring it is only half the problem... the other half is enforcing it. I like the suggestions about "allowing coloniziation and mining in alien declared space...but at a diplomatic disadvantage. And, retaliation should be allowed with a minumal to zero rep hit (perhaps something like, the more warnings you give prior to vaperizing thier butts the less rep hits you take)".

< Message edited by MasterChief -- 12/8/2011 7:27:36 PM >

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Post #: 85

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 7:50:22 PM

the1sean

Posts: 854
Joined: 5/11/2010
From: Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Torgrim

quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

quote:

ORIGINAL: Torgrim

quote:

ORIGINAL:Artificially limiting colonization distance:
I absolutely disagree with this, for both "realism" and gameplay reasons.
Realism - similar to other examples already given, the Vikings colonized when and where they wanted to. They colonized nearby areas within enemy territory (i.e: SOI) likeNormandy France. They also colonized far away and disjointed areas on the other side of huge enemy empires; Greenland, Iceland, and America.

First of all The French gave Rollo Normandy so they would stop raiding France, it was a peace treaty.
Second, did the Vikings sail all the way to America to build a up a colony and skipped Island,Greenland ect?
No, it took them 200 years to reach America, the first real Viking colonies outside Scandinavia were in close proximity and gradually they increased their range of colonial sphere.
Amongst the first West colonies were Orkney and Shetland, then England, then Iceland then Greenland and last America.
Vikings to the east started colonizing Baltic coast first then went inland slowly till they reach Kiev area.

What i mean with this Viking example is that they slowly expanded, not like in DW where AI Empires plants colonies all over the map.

The reason they had to progressively expand outward is because of tech limitations

The reason as always was supply nothing at all about tech limitations.

Sure it was a tech limit on the range that could be supplied. For instance if I have the lowest fuel storage tech, inefficient reactors, and low-speed high power usage hyperdrives, my effective supply range will be short so if I want to get across the map I have to progressively expand outward setting up supply stations/outposts. However, if those components are traded out for more efficient and high speed ones then I can operate without resupply for extended periods of time therefore effectively expanding my range of operations in supply. A good comparison is viking era sailing technology versus the naval technology commonly employed during the age of discovery. The effective supply range was extended by improved naval tech.

Either way this is kind of turning into a discussion of semantics. Currently I don't think that colonization is broken.

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Post #: 86

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 7:52:05 PM

Cauldyth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller

I guess it does spoil the realism of having Teekans and Kiadians and Ugnari and Wekkarus and Zenox...

I'm still disappointed that, while there are cats and rats and bears and bugs, Distant Worlds still has no...

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Post #: 87

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 7:57:28 PM

the1sean

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quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller

quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

quote:

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller

If this is to be allowed as you suggest without a war declaration at all, then I want to be able to attack any mining bases within my sphere of influence at no reputation penalty and without the need to declare war. Same thing with newly established colonies (in my former SoI) say for the period of a year even though they now produce their own sphere of influence. Otherwise I am paying reputation to enforce my sphere of influence which makes a mockery of it existing in the first place.

I suggested a harsh reputation penalty for colonizing/mining within SOI. When you attack opponents with poor reputation your reputation hits are much lower than rep hits for attacking an opponent with an awesome rep. So long story short it should actually work out well.

No way. It should not cost me any reputation to enforce my sphere of influence. In fact the argument could be made that I should get a reputation bonus for enforcing it. (Or maybe the 'lawful' trait? )

I see your point, and I actually agree. I wouldn't say that I am against the SoI colonization restrictions currently in place. I just agree that they could be modeled in more detail. To be clear, I am actually pretty ecstatic with the system currently in place. I feel that is more fully realized than almost any other territorial system that I have seen before without making the system so convoluted that it hampers the flow of gameplay.

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Post #: 88

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/8/2011 8:07:43 PM

hal9000

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quote:

ORIGINAL: the1sean

Sure it was a tech limit on the range that could be supplied. For instance if I have the lowest fuel storage tech, inefficient reactors, and low-speed high power usage hyperdrives, my effective supply range will be short so if I want to get across the map I have to progressively expand outward setting up supply stations/outposts. However, if those components are traded out for more efficient and high speed ones then I can operate without resupply for extended periods of time therefore effectively expanding my range of operations in supply. A good comparison is viking era sailing technology versus the naval technology commonly employed during the age of discovery. The effective supply range was extended by improved naval tech.

Either way this is kind of turning into a discussion of semantics. Currently I don't think that colonization is broken.

actually you can colonize everywhere from the start, if your colony ship runs out of fuel halfway it still crawls to the target planet with I think 1/4 speed in hyperspace and thats the part I think is broken.

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Post #: 89

RE: Sphere of Influence suggestion - 12/9/2011 2:56:37 AM

the1sean

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hal9000

actually you can colonize everywhere from the start, if your colony ship runs out of fuel halfway it still crawls to the target planet with I think 1/4 speed in hyperspace and thats the part I think is broken.

Point taken, that is definitely off.

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Post #: 90