RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/20/2018 10:22:39 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Here is the info screen. The Allies have picked up about 2k since the turn of the year. Mostly Kushiro's points and troop losses. The air war remains a dead heat.

Loving it. Keep up the good work.

I think some people overlook that fact that the Victory conditions are predicated upon a ratio, not the absolute number of points. As you engage in more and more 1:1 VP snarls in the air, the ratio is increasingly difficult for the Allies to start to overcome. At this point, the Allies need to gain another 46,671 VPs without the Japanese side gaining one in order to get to 1.5:1. And now they have 6 months to do so.

Obvert: 6 months ago (in game time) would have been late August 1944. What was your VP ratio / total points then? My guess is that it's either not budged (ratio-wise) or maybe even expanded a bit in your favor.

There's a lot at stake VP-wise should Japan be pushed off Hokkaido. The base VP's aren't insignificant, nor are the army VP's (assuming units are eventually surrounded and die on the island). Now, more than ever, it's critical to stall the Allies on the ground. If they get a big breakthrough and cut off a lot of IJA units, the VP situation can start to snowball fast.

He can push hard here with about 5-6k AV of late war Allied troops. The forts are going to be tough for him, as Bihoro is level 8 and Sapporo is level 9. Both Asahikawa and Muroran are level 6. Hakodate is getting toward level 7.

I have a feeling he'll try another landing forward of Kushiro not too long from now. Dan isn't one to sit around for long and slog through. It's also easier for the Allies to pick a target to isolate by sea whereas by land I've got time to prepare as he moves in.

If he does come overland I'm getting a few divisions dug into the x3 terrain and more placed in reserve nearby to race in if he comes one way or another. I've also got one of the tank divisions coming back from Burma I can through into the mix.

< Message edited by obvert -- 11/20/2018 10:23:31 AM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 2611

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/20/2018 8:19:41 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

Feb 24, 1945

The Allies begin bombing at night on the 24th. The NF answer well. These are followed up by extensive sweeps and some minor bombing of the fields and resources. I get the feeling he's trying assess how to mix night/day bombing with sweeps and escorts. Today looked like a trial.

It worked well in the day as he caught Hakodate with all older airframes on CAP. A bit rough in the air, but the NF made up for it taking down 13-16 4Es. That for 11 planes lost on the ground and 3 NF in the air. This is why a bunch of my 80+ golden boy fighter jocks have been tooling around over major industry centers without any action for the past six months.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Feb 24, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 71 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-Sa Irving x 6
Ki-45 KAId Nick x 26

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.VI x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator B.VI: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged

Runway hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Liberator B.VI bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-Sa Irving x 6
Ki-45 KAId Nick x 24

Allied aircraft
Liberator GR.VI x 10

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator GR.VI: 3 destroyed, 4 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Liberator GR.VI bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 250 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-Sa Irving x 6
Ki-45 KAId Nick x 22

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.VI x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAId Nick: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator B.VI: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Liberator B.VI bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 1st Regiment, at 122,53 , near Kushiro

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 32 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 19
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 28
Ki-100-II Tony x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged

Allied ground losses:
Vehicles lost 9 (2 destroyed, 7 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
19 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 2000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 16th Canadian Brigade, at 122,53 , near Kushiro

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 23 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 12
P1Y2 Frances x 36
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 28
Ki-100-II Tony x 20

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
284 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 20 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x P1Y2 Frances bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 1st Regiment, at 122,53 , near Kushiro

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 26
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 7
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 77
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 32
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy x 52
Ki-100-II Tony x 20

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
138 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 6 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 17 (12 destroyed, 5 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 1st Regiment, at 122,53 , near Kushiro

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 34 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 45
N1K1-J George x 12
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 3
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 25

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
23 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 7 (6 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
25 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Also attacking 6th Ranger Battalion ...
Also attacking 1st Regiment ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 1st Regiment, at 122,53 , near Kushiro

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 39 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 29
B5N2 Kate x 20
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 22
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 28

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
Vehicles lost 8 (8 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 1st Regiment, at 122,53 , near Kushiro

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 39 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 45
N1K1-J George x 12
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 28
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 67
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 27
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy x 27
Ki-100-II Tony x 20

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
Vehicles lost 66 (65 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 1st Regiment, at 122,53 , near Kushiro

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 30
D4Y4 Judy x 41
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 23
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 28

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
Vehicles lost 9 (9 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 2000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 800 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Combined 8th SNLF , at 123,51 (Bihoro)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 51 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-25H Mitchell x 5
B-25J11 Mitchell x 3
PBJ-1J Mitchell x 10
PV-1 Ventura x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-25H Mitchell: 2 damaged
B-25J11 Mitchell: 1 destroyed by flak
PBJ-1J Mitchell: 7 damaged
PBJ-1J Mitchell: 1 destroyed by flak
PV-1 Ventura: 2 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
3 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x PBJ-1J Mitchell bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 1st Base Force, at 123,51 (Bihoro)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 57 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-25J11 Mitchell x 6
PV-1 Ventura x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-25J11 Mitchell: 1 damaged
B-25J11 Mitchell: 1 destroyed by flak
PV-1 Ventura: 1 damaged
PV-1 Ventura: 1 destroyed by flak

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x PV-1 Ventura bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 70 NM, estimated altitude 43,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 28
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 24

Allied aircraft
P-38L Lightning x 23

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38L Lightning: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 31 NM, estimated altitude 41,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 74
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 20

Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 3 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 2 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 26 NM, estimated altitude 43,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 66
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 12

Allied aircraft
Thunderbolt II x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Thunderbolt II: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 42 NM, estimated altitude 38,900 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 60
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 4

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 2 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 40,900 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 43
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 2

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 8 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 3 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 21 NM, estimated altitude 43,900 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 18

Allied aircraft
P-51D Mustang x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 7 destroyed

No Allied losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 74 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 6
F-6D Mustang x 12
P-51D Mustang x 18

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 5 damaged

Resources hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 10000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 35 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAId Nick: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 2 damaged

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 25

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2612

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/20/2018 8:23:26 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

Notice the movement arrows on the ground troops on Hokkaido. Looks like the Allies are taking their toys and going home to play. There is still a good chance of hitting a bunch of troops in the clear over the next few days. I'll concentrate on the smaller units without any AA in the hexes around Kushiro, then later, if there is still an opening try to get to the IDs currently at Bihoro.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2613

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/20/2018 10:08:58 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

The 25th began with the Allies moving closer to invading Paramushiro-Jima. The CD guns landed 12 hits on BB New York as she bombarded, but no major damage listed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Naval bombardment of Paramushiro-jima at 137,47 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

78 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB New York, Shell hits 12
BB Tennessee
CL Honolulu
DD Downes
DD Flusser
DD Mahan
DD Ingraham
DD Bell

Japanese ground losses:
121 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Runway hits 2

BB New York firing at Kitachishima Fortress
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2614

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/20/2018 10:11:59 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

The Allies continue their night bombing campaign, but again are met by the NF who get the job done.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on Asahikawa , at 121,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-Sa Irving x 6

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.VI x 3
PBJ-1D Mitchell x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator B.VI: 1 damaged
PBJ-1D Mitchell: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x PBJ-1D Mitchell bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 59 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAId Nick x 6

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAId Nick: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Manpower hits 1
Fires 735

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 8000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2615

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/20/2018 10:16:14 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

The Allies finally decide to land in Burma as well, at Mergui. It's a dangerous location, but I've got a lot around here and did manage to weaken the landings a bit.

Kates strike first and sink four heavily loaded xAPs against no CAP!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on TF, near Tavoy at 53,61

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 6 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 2 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 32
B5N2 Kate x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
xAP Jacalope, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
xAP Clan Macbean, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAP Largs Bay, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
xAP Clan Macindoe, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied ground losses:
7227 casualties reported
Squads: 195 destroyed, 189 disabled
Non Combat: 107 destroyed, 154 disabled
Engineers: 36 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 98 (96 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
26 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2616

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/20/2018 10:25:36 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

Some Frances go for some LSTs while the kami unit here aims for the big boys. The troops do get landed though, and it looks like it'll be hard to keep this base. I've got there divisions to coral anything that comes marching though, and two more en route from Moulmei along the coast.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on TF, near Tavoy at 53,61

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
P1Y1 Frances x 13
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 37

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y1 Frances: 1 damaged
P1Y1 Frances: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
LST 538, Bomb hits 1, on fire
LST 1021, Bomb hits 1, on fire
LST 427, Bomb hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x P1Y1 Frances bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Mergui at 53,62

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 33 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 32
B5N2 Kate x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 5 damaged

Allied Ships
xAK City of Hankow, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
xAP Cap St Jacques
xAK Empire Rani
xAK Martand, Torpedo hits 1
xAK Samharle
xAK John B. Floyd, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Fort Brooke
xAP Felix Roussel, Torpedo hits 1

Allied ground losses:
29 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 13 (9 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
26 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Mergui at 53,62

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 28
P1Y2 Frances x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y2 Frances: 11 destroyed

Allied Ships
LSI(L) Brisbane Star, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire
LSI(L) Dunedin Star
xAP Esperance Bay
xAP Empress ' Asia, Kamikaze hits 1
AP Thomas Jefferson, Kamikaze hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
xAP Kelantan
DE Holt
DE Hodges, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy damage
LSI(L) Glengyle

Allied ground losses:
29 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x P1Y2 Frances flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Mergui at 53,62

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 167 NM, estimated altitude 30,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 58 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 36
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
xAK Lyman Beecher
xAP Esperance
xAP Birchbank, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DE Jumna
LSI(L) Empire Battleaxe, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
LSI(L) Empire Mace, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAK Gausdal
xAP Daisy Moller, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Allied ground losses:
90 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
35 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

Massive explosion on LSI(L) Empire Battleaxe

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Mergui at 53,62

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B6N2a Jill x 35
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2a Jill: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
LST 408, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK La Cordillera, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
LST-745, Bomb hits 1
LST-736, Bomb hits 4, and is sunk
LST-746, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
LST-750, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
LST-740, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
LST 410, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Allied ground losses:
32 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
35 x B6N2a Jill bombing from 5000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring LST-740

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Mergui (53,62)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 7209 troops, 44 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 207

Defending force 15132 troops, 320 guns, 106 vehicles, Assault Value = 683

Japanese ground losses:
18 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Assaulting units:
4th Ind.Mixed Regiment
3rd South Seas Det.

Defending units:
2nd British Division
81st (West African) Div /1
77th Indian Para Brigade
268th Motorised Bde /2
23rd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
185th USAAF Base Force /1
134th (East Ang) Rgt /1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 11/20/2018 10:26:09 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2617

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/20/2018 10:40:15 PM

Anachro

Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline

Well, that's a nice turn for Japan. All those transports without air cover and at your bombers' mercy. Not a common sight for Japan in 1945. And nice for the VPs. I'm sure Canoerebel would like the turn back.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2618

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/20/2018 10:57:10 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

Lovely! Well done!

6/15 hits on your Kamikazes too. A respectable ratio. Why were the B6N2a aircraft carrying bombs? Range?

_____________________________

(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 2619

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/21/2018 12:57:19 AM

Bif1961

Posts: 2014
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Phenix City, Alabama
Status: offline

You sank the ole Battleaxe

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 2620

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/21/2018 5:50:00 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Lovely! Well done!

6/15 hits on your Kamikazes too. A respectable ratio. Why were the B6N2a aircraft carrying bombs? Range?

Range and HQ placement both. I had to disperse in case the big bad bombers decided to diversify and take a day off from pounding Bangkok. I had planes launching from about six different bases. Probably a good thing in the end since none of the 90 strike planes from Chumpon flew at all. It could have been a much better day as there are still about 50 ships out there.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 2621

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/21/2018 5:52:41 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Well, that's a nice turn for Japan. All those transports without air cover and at your bombers' mercy. Not a common sight for Japan in 1945. And nice for the VPs. I'm sure Canoerebel would like the turn back.

The LSI(L) are especially nice to sink outright, but those big ocean liner xAP are a hefty VP count too. The Empress Asia is one of the big ones. See how that kami hit treats her.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 2622

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/21/2018 11:41:16 AM

obvert

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Joined: 1/17/2011
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In the air up North the Ki-83 groups continue to sweep Allied bases and this time meet not only the old Wilcats and Corsairs but also some P-51D. A good result against this CAP again though, getting about 1.5:1.

Interesting he has Mustangs low at 10k and the old Corsairs up high. I�m glad for that really since the Stangs could have gotten a decent dive on the sweepers. Looks like Dan is experimenting with his own version of low layered CAP. Nice! ;)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Uruppu-jima , at 130,52

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 43 NM, estimated altitude 43,530 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-83 x 32

Allied aircraft
P-51D Mustang x 49
F4F-4 Wildcat x 25
FM-2 Wildcat x 23
F4U-1 Corsair x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-83: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-51D Mustang: 3 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ki-83 sweeping at 41530 feet

CAP engaged:
VBF-3 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 17 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 28300.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
VBF-5 with FM-2 Wildcat (0 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 34700.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
VBF-6 with FM-2 Wildcat (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 5000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 34700.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
VMF-225 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 36800 , scrambling fighters to 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
VMF-311 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
506th FG/457th FS with P-51D Mustang (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 41900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
506th FG/458th FS with P-51D Mustang (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 41900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
506th FG/462nd FS with P-51D Mustang (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 41900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2623

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/21/2018 11:47:47 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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The Allies continue to bombard in Burma, ostensibly trying to use up supply and probably also get direct recon on which units are moving where. It comes at a price though, as every day the losses include numerous destroyed devices. Today it�s 8 VPs worth.

This kind of stuff adds up, and it can�t be good for his pools at this point either, but who knows. There hasn't been a constant drain for some months on the Commonwealth troops as the bulk of fighting has been up North. Arty guns are never plentiful for the Allies, though.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Pegu (55,53)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9724 troops, 259 guns, 433 vehicles, Assault Value = 3366

Defending force 124842 troops, 1180 guns, 639 vehicles, Assault Value = 3133

Japanese ground losses:
143 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Allied ground losses:
Guns lost 29 (17 destroyed, 12 disabled)
Vehicles lost 27 (7 destroyed, 20 disabled)

Assaulting units:
7th Indian Division

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2624

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/21/2018 11:53:27 AM

obvert

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Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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The landings came in at Para as well this turn, and it looks like the Allies faced the winter rules, lack of prep and some tough CD guns coming ashore. Not much left in fighting shape there. Still, they�ll repair eventually, Dan will land more, and the base will fall, but happy to see any kind of delays in these peripheral ops as the clock keeps ticking.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pre-Invasion action off Paramushiro-jima (137,47) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

86 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB Valiant, Shell hits 1
LCI(G)-528
LCI(G)-469
LCI(G)-468
LCI(G)-465
LCI(G)-462
LCI(G)-439
LCI(G)-406
LCI(G)-405
LCI(G)-401
LCI(G)-398
LCI(G)-397
LCI(R)-337
LCI(R)-231
LCI(R)-230
LCI(R)-226
LCI(R)-73
LCI(R)-72
LCI-788
LCI-789
LCI-793
DD Van Galen
LCI-790

Japanese ground losses:
384 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 33 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
72 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Wake Coastal Gun Battalion firing at BB Valiant
BB Valiant firing at Wake Coastal Gun Battalion
LCI(G)-528 fired at enemy troops
LCI(G)-469 fired at enemy guns
LCI(G)-468 fired at enemy troops
LCI(G)-465 fired at enemy guns
LCI(G)-462 fired at enemy guns
LCI(G)-439 fired at enemy troops
LCI(G)-406 fired at enemy guns
LCI(G)-405 fired at enemy troops
LCI(G)-401 fired at enemy guns
LCI(G)-398 fired at enemy guns
LCI(G)-397 fired at enemy guns
LCI(R)-337 fired at enemy guns
LCI(R)-231 fired at enemy troops
LCI(R)-230 fired at enemy troops
LCI(R)-226 fired at enemy troops
LCI(R)-73 fired at enemy troops
LCI(R)-72 fired at enemy guns
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 4,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amphibious Assault at Paramushiro-jima (137,47)

TF 194 troops unloading over beach at Paramushiro-jima, 137,47

Allied ground losses:
3243 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 548 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 597 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 238 (0 destroyed, 238 disabled)
Vehicles lost 295 (2 destroyed, 293 disabled)

15 Support troops lost overboard during unload of 6th Infantry Div
13 troops of a USA Rifle Squad 44 lost in surf during unload of 6th Infantry Div /3
Motorized Support lost from landing craft during unload of 6th Infantry Div /5
Motorized Support lost overboard during unload of 58th (Sep) Infantry Rgt /4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Paramushiro-jima (137,47)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 4225 troops, 89 guns, 176 vehicles, Assault Value = 104

Defending force 10768 troops, 392 guns, 303 vehicles, Assault Value = 75

Allied ground losses:
120 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 11 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 13 (11 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Assaulting units:
Kitachishima Fortress
56th Div /1
1st Amphibious Bde /1
12th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
6th JNAF AF Unit
31st Special Base Force /2
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
Wake Coastal Gun Battalion
7th Area Army
19th RF Gun Battalion
2nd Air Fleet /2
14th Base Force /1

Defending units:
158th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
6th Infantry Div /1
37th (Sep) Infantry Rgt /6
1st Medium Regiment
4th Field Artillery Battalion
58th (Sep) Infantry Rgt /8

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2625

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/21/2018 11:56:13 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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There was a question in another AAR recently about kami bomb loads. Although the Frances can carry a torpedo, for kami use they seem to carry the normal bomb load.

If all of those bombs account for an individual hit I�d prefer this since each one would be a new dice roll and potentially severe damage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Tavoy at 53,61

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 2 NM, estimated altitude 4,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 0 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 29
P1Y2 Frances x 18

No Japanese losses

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x P1Y2 Frances flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Mergui at 53,62

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 28
P1Y2 Frances x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y2 Frances: 11 destroyed

Allied Ships
LSI(L) Brisbane Star, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire
LSI(L) Dunedin Star
xAP Esperance Bay
xAP Empress ' Asia, Kamikaze hits 1
AP Thomas Jefferson, Kamikaze hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
xAP Kelantan
DE Holt
DE Hodges, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy damage
LSI(L) Glengyle

Allied ground losses:
29 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x P1Y2 Frances flying as kamikaze
Kamikaze: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2626

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/21/2018 11:58:41 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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Ground bombing continues on Hokkaido with a pretty good day nailing the Canadian 16th Brigade and a few armoured units.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on 16th Canadian Brigade, at 122,53 , near Kushiro

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
P1Y2 Frances x 36

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
153 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 21 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x P1Y2 Frances bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 16th Canadian Brigade, at 122,53 , near Kushiro

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 22 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 45
A6M8 Zero x 39
D4Y4 Judy x 41
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 30

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
114 casualties reported
Squads: 19 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 1000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 800 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 6th Ranger Battalion, at 122,53 , near Kushiro

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 45
B5N2 Kate x 33
B6N2 Jill x 45
B6N2a Jill x 36
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 79

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
263 casualties reported
Squads: 33 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 8 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 3 (2 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 3rd NZ Armoured Sqn , at 123,52 , near Kushiro

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 11 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 20
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 74

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
296 casualties reported
Squads: 37 destroyed, 11 disabled
Non Combat: 17 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 22 (10 destroyed, 12 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 763rd Tank Battalion, at 123,52 , near Kushiro

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 47 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 2
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 33
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy x 20

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
Vehicles lost 34 (20 destroyed, 14 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 112th Cavalry Regiment, at 123,52 , near Kushiro

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 4
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 20

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
100 casualties reported
Squads: 14 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 9 (8 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2627

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/21/2018 3:29:03 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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(Un?)fortunately, I think kamikaze hits are treated as a single 'boom'.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2628

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/21/2018 5:18:58 PM

mind_messing

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Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

There was a question in another AAR recently about kami bomb loads. Although the Frances can carry a torpedo, for kami use they seem to carry the normal bomb load.

If all of those bombs account for an individual hit I�d prefer this since each one would be a new dice roll and potentially severe damage.

SNIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

(Un?)fortunately, I think kamikaze hits are treated as a single 'boom'.

That's good to know Obvert, thanks.

It's one more good reason to keep torpedo armed aircraft dedicated to conventional strikes. I'm curious as to how 2E's like the Helen with 4x250kg bombs would compare against something like the D4Y4 with 1x800kg bomb...

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2629

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/21/2018 8:58:11 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

(Un?)fortunately, I think kamikaze hits are treated as a single 'boom'.

How do we know?

What makes the single boom? An accumulation of the bomb load? Is airframe size added in? Or is the boom simply a one size fits all, so bomb size doesn't matter?

I remember someone (mind_messing?)saying the Judy-C works well as a kami. It carries no bomb load at all. So what's the boom there?

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 2630

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/22/2018 5:39:14 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

(Un?)fortunately, I think kamikaze hits are treated as a single 'boom'.

How do we know?

What makes the single boom? An accumulation of the bomb load? Is airframe size added in? Or is the boom simply a one size fits all, so bomb size doesn't matter?

I remember someone (mind_messing?)saying the Judy-C works well as a kami. It carries no bomb load at all. So what's the boom there?

All of the hints we've received are that it's probably based on the max load of the plane (and possibly things like durability) and not so much (if at all) on the payload actually being carried. While we don't have it explicit, that's where all the arrows (and maybe there's just one arrow) point. Alfred mentioned said arrow recently as well.

Edit: I've also never seen messages about the bombs exploding, and while that wouldn't have to be the case, given the damage message paradigm in the game I would be surprised if the effects of the bombs exploding was included but the messages were excluded.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 11/22/2018 5:40:20 AM >

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2631

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/22/2018 7:57:14 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

(Un?)fortunately, I think kamikaze hits are treated as a single 'boom'.

How do we know?

What makes the single boom? An accumulation of the bomb load? Is airframe size added in? Or is the boom simply a one size fits all, so bomb size doesn't matter?

I remember someone (mind_messing?)saying the Judy-C works well as a kami. It carries no bomb load at all. So what's the boom there?

All of the hints we've received are that it's probably based on the max load of the plane (and possibly things like durability) and not so much (if at all) on the payload actually being carried. While we don't have it explicit, that's where all the arrows (and maybe there's just one arrow) point. Alfred mentioned said arrow recently as well.

Edit: I've also never seen messages about the bombs exploding, and while that wouldn't have to be the case, given the damage message paradigm in the game I would be surprised if the effects of the bombs exploding was included but the messages were excluded.

That seems reasonable. So max load being accounted for, what about recon planes or fighters that have no bomb load available? Maybe just durability then? So a Judy-C hit would be relatively ineffective if only taking into account durability.

If it is max load then all 2E bombers would have the biggest size of boom. I guess the Emilys would be a bigger boom but pretty unlikely to hit.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 2632

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/22/2018 8:31:27 AM

adarbrauner

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Are you researching/developing jets? when are they supposed to enter service, we are already in the second semihalf of 1945?

Are you building the fast electric submarines? have tried them in combat?

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2633

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/22/2018 11:10:44 AM

ny59giants

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Allied artillery is usually out gunned and out ranged by Japanese guns. According to John E (Symon/JWE) the Allies relied heavily upon FB being used in ground attack roles, but that wasn't modeled as well as he would like in AAE and even in his DBB mods. I was asking him a series of questions years ago about this when he was helping John 3rd and I move our mods from stock to DBB based. He suggested that Allies use their CD gun units more in front lines as they have the best guns.

(in reply to adarbrauner)

Post #: 2634

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/22/2018 11:38:46 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

(Un?)fortunately, I think kamikaze hits are treated as a single 'boom'.

How do we know?

What makes the single boom? An accumulation of the bomb load? Is airframe size added in? Or is the boom simply a one size fits all, so bomb size doesn't matter?

I remember someone (mind_messing?)saying the Judy-C works well as a kami. It carries no bomb load at all. So what's the boom there?

All of the hints we've received are that it's probably based on the max load of the plane (and possibly things like durability) and not so much (if at all) on the payload actually being carried. While we don't have it explicit, that's where all the arrows (and maybe there's just one arrow) point. Alfred mentioned said arrow recently as well.

Edit: I've also never seen messages about the bombs exploding, and while that wouldn't have to be the case, given the damage message paradigm in the game I would be surprised if the effects of the bombs exploding was included but the messages were excluded.

That seems reasonable. So max load being accounted for, what about recon planes or fighters that have no bomb load available? Maybe just durability then? So a Judy-C hit would be relatively ineffective if only taking into account durability.

If it is max load then all 2E bombers would have the biggest size of boom. I guess the Emilys would be a bigger boom but pretty unlikely to hit.

You are starting to go off the rails here.

Lokasenna is correct about it being a single hit but remember that in AE, a hit in any kind of combat is merely the first threshold which needs to be passed before any consideration is given to what damage might result from the action. Some of the speculation which has been posted on this page is quite misleading when considered in the context of reverse engineering the code but from the perspective of how it impacts the player, taking into account the variables which the player can manipulate, no real harm results.

Suggest you all go back to pages 130 and 131 of Mike Solli's AAR and read very closely my posts

#3899
#3901
#3904
#3912

and note what I didn't say as well as what I said.

The preoccupation, which I see from several players, about the size of the boom is really quite pointless. As Shakespeare would have said, "therein lies madness". Achieving a kamikaze hit is all that should concern players.

Alfred

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2635

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/22/2018 12:25:16 PM

mind_messing

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Quote from the last relevant post from Alfred made in Mike's AAR.

quote:

Hmm, depends on what you mean by "bomb load"

For a subject which exercises so much the minds of players, both the manual and the devs over the years have been very reticent to provide much guidance. I am therefore very much bound by ethical considerations to not disclose information which the devs did not want to disclose. The following comments regarding kamikaze air operations are provided very much with that constraint in mind. I know there will be players who will demand more information to which the answer is tough, you aren't entitled to even this amount of information.

Kamikaze air operations in AE are very similar to what transpired in classical WITP. The two main changes made for AE were::

(a) fix the bug which saw kamikaze aircraft attack land bases (this fix was one of the last classical WITP bug fixes), and

(b) improve the chances of a kamikaze strike penetrating Allied CAP. This mainly involved addressing the classical WITP problem of late war uber CAP neutering any kind of air strike.

IRL the damage from kamikaze aircraft came not just from their ordnance but also from their fuel and mass of airframe. If AE were a simulation this would require every single different eligible aircraft model having its mass + fuel + specific mission ordnance factored into the kamikaze combat algorithm. For each plane which hits. Instead, partly because that level of detail is not tracked, in AE this is all abstracted down to a relatively few inputs into the kamikaze combat algorithm.

What really matters for the abstraction is whether a kamikaze hit is achieved. That means first successfully getting through Allied CAP (the primary Allied defence) and flak. A kamikaze plane which hits gets only 1 single hit, not multiple hits to reflect ordnance + fuel + mass. The damage inflicted (don't forget there are always die rolls in Grigsby algorithms) is determined from the type of hit which is abstracted. There is no differentiation made between different aircraft models of the same aircraft type. Except for determining the type of abstracted hit to be applied, aircraft models without a bomb are not discriminated against compared to those aircraft models of the same aircraft type with a bomb.

Alfred

My reading of this is that there are different "types" of hit (with the usual randomness) for F, FB, LB and so on, and are irrespective of the plane model.

That's very interesting, if I've read it correctly? Or do I need to go get another coffee and some lunch?

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

(Un?)fortunately, I think kamikaze hits are treated as a single 'boom'.

How do we know?

What makes the single boom? An accumulation of the bomb load? Is airframe size added in? Or is the boom simply a one size fits all, so bomb size doesn't matter?

I remember someone (mind_messing?)saying the Judy-C works well as a kami. It carries no bomb load at all. So what's the boom there?

I don't think it was me - don't recall using the Judy-C in kami attacks at any rate.

You get a respectible level of damamge from every kami hit, regarding if it's big or not.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2636

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/22/2018 1:04:11 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Are you researching/developing jets? when are they supposed to enter service, we are already in the second semihalf of 1945?

Are you building the fast electric submarines? have tried them in combat?

I'm not going to be making any jets unless something really changes in the progress of this game. My last research project is the Ki-94, but that has no factories repaired and only 30 researching. Just a dart throw in case the game is still going in nov-dec 45 that it might move up a month or two.

I will continue to build some subs. I've had success with those before. This game I've not had much good happen in the last six months or so. I'll report if I do, you can be sure.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to adarbrauner)

Post #: 2637

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/22/2018 1:07:41 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

Allied artillery is usually out gunned and out ranged by Japanese guns. According to John E (Symon/JWE) the Allies relied heavily upon FB being used in ground attack roles, but that wasn't modeled as well as he would like in AAE and even in his DBB mods. I was asking him a series of questions years ago about this when he was helping John 3rd and I move our mods from stock to DBB based. He suggested that Allies use their CD gun units more in front lines as they have the best guns.

Right. I think it is some of how it's modelled, but also some of the Japanese RnD in game making it difficult for the Allies to put their best fighters on a ground attack mission, have pilots with the right skills developed and have an enemy much less well supplied due to the ineffectiveness of Allied submarines compared to the war.

I also don't think a lot of the big siege guns would have ever left Manchuria in the war. We can put them where we want.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to ny59giants)

Post #: 2638

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/22/2018 1:20:44 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

(Un?)fortunately, I think kamikaze hits are treated as a single 'boom'.

How do we know?

What makes the single boom? An accumulation of the bomb load? Is airframe size added in? Or is the boom simply a one size fits all, so bomb size doesn't matter?

I remember someone (mind_messing?)saying the Judy-C works well as a kami. It carries no bomb load at all. So what's the boom there?

All of the hints we've received are that it's probably based on the max load of the plane (and possibly things like durability) and not so much (if at all) on the payload actually being carried. While we don't have it explicit, that's where all the arrows (and maybe there's just one arrow) point. Alfred mentioned said arrow recently as well.

Edit: I've also never seen messages about the bombs exploding, and while that wouldn't have to be the case, given the damage message paradigm in the game I would be surprised if the effects of the bombs exploding was included but the messages were excluded.

That seems reasonable. So max load being accounted for, what about recon planes or fighters that have no bomb load available? Maybe just durability then? So a Judy-C hit would be relatively ineffective if only taking into account durability.

If it is max load then all 2E bombers would have the biggest size of boom. I guess the Emilys would be a bigger boom but pretty unlikely to hit.

You are starting to go off the rails here.

Lokasenna is correct about it being a single hit but remember that in AE, a hit in any kind of combat is merely the first threshold which needs to be passed before any consideration is given to what damage might result from the action. Some of the speculation which has been posted on this page is quite misleading when considered in the context of reverse engineering the code but from the perspective of how it impacts the player, taking into account the variables which the player can manipulate, no real harm results.

Suggest you all go back to pages 130 and 131 of Mike Solli's AAR and read very closely my posts

#3899
#3901
#3904
#3912

and note what I didn't say as well as what I said.

The preoccupation, which I see from several players, about the size of the boom is really quite pointless. As Shakespeare would have said, "therein lies madness". Achieving a kamikaze hit is all that should concern players.

Alfred

What I was getting at here is trying to bring out more from the various posts that have been made over time. This game does allow the player to choose the bomb load of many planes and situations (choosing torpedoes vs bombs, choosing normal vs extended range, getting 80+ exp pilots in to drop bigger bombs, altitude choice, etc). It's therefore somewhat odd and arbitrary why the devs would have wanted to "hide" what kamis carried from the player.

What does it matter? Why not just say that there is a bigger boom from a bigger plane? that makes perfect sense, and wouldn't change much about how (smart) players set up their kami strikes. There is no exploit there, no game balance issue, nothing to "hide." So why the mystery?

I agree a hit is primary. No argument there. I've had success flying FP kamis and Judy kamis with 800kg bombs. Again, that is some of what I'm trying to squeeze out.

Maybe the greatest concern in an effective kami is a good pilot with expert defensive and low naval bombing skills.
Second might be plane speed and manoeuvre ratings.
Third might be airframe durability and armor.

So does the bomb load matter? Sounds like not. So why then research the myriad of 800kg bomb carrying late war planes, most of which don't have a good speed/manoeuvre/durability combo? I've decided already there is no reason. I can convert almost any group to either F/FB/MB and therefore get a good combo of fast and either durable or manoeuvrable airframes to use.

What it would be good to know is how much bigger a boom an airframe type would produce so I could better choose which of the good airframes I know will more often get a hit to dedicate to my low volume kami strikes and which to keep in their day jobs. That's all really.

< Message edited by obvert -- 11/22/2018 1:24:27 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 2639

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_Sq... - 11/22/2018 1:38:58 PM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Quote from the last relevant post from Alfred made in Mike's AAR.

quote:

Hmm, depends on what you mean by "bomb load"

For a subject which exercises so much the minds of players, both the manual and the devs over the years have been very reticent to provide much guidance. I am therefore very much bound by ethical considerations to not disclose information which the devs did not want to disclose. The following comments regarding kamikaze air operations are provided very much with that constraint in mind. I know there will be players who will demand more information to which the answer is tough, you aren't entitled to even this amount of information.

Kamikaze air operations in AE are very similar to what transpired in classical WITP. The two main changes made for AE were::

(a) fix the bug which saw kamikaze aircraft attack land bases (this fix was one of the last classical WITP bug fixes), and

(b) improve the chances of a kamikaze strike penetrating Allied CAP. This mainly involved addressing the classical WITP problem of late war uber CAP neutering any kind of air strike.

IRL the damage from kamikaze aircraft came not just from their ordnance but also from their fuel and mass of airframe. If AE were a simulation this would require every single different eligible aircraft model having its mass + fuel + specific mission ordnance factored into the kamikaze combat algorithm. For each plane which hits. Instead, partly because that level of detail is not tracked, in AE this is all abstracted down to a relatively few inputs into the kamikaze combat algorithm.

What really matters for the abstraction is whether a kamikaze hit is achieved. That means first successfully getting through Allied CAP (the primary Allied defence) and flak. A kamikaze plane which hits gets only 1 single hit, not multiple hits to reflect ordnance + fuel + mass. The damage inflicted (don't forget there are always die rolls in Grigsby algorithms) is determined from the type of hit which is abstracted. There is no differentiation made between different aircraft models of the same aircraft type. Except for determining the type of abstracted hit to be applied, aircraft models without a bomb are not discriminated against compared to those aircraft models of the same aircraft type with a bomb.

Alfred

My reading of this is that there are different "types" of hit (with the usual randomness) for F, FB, LB and so on, and are irrespective of the plane model.

That's very interesting, if I've read it correctly? Or do I need to go get another coffee and some lunch?

You don't have to go get another coffee and some lunch.

The actual code is more complicated but the essence of how it operates is along these lines as long as players understand the code is incorporating relevant abstractions (yes in the plural).[/I]

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

(Un?)fortunately, I think kamikaze hits are treated as a single 'boom'.

How do we know?

What makes the single boom? An accumulation of the bomb load? Is airframe size added in? Or is the boom simply a one size fits all, so bomb size doesn't matter?

I remember someone (mind_messing?)saying the Judy-C works well as a kami. It carries no bomb load at all. So what's the boom there?

I don't think it was me - don't recall using the Judy-C in kami attacks at any rate.

You get a respectible level of damamge from every kami hit, regarding if it's big or not.

Which is the key point players need to understand. Getting the hit should be the sole priority. The other variables are not under player control to any meaningful degree.

Alfred

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 2640

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