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RE: European Championships - 12/21/2015 9:42:14 AM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		I'm afraid the image is no small thing. Football clubs are run to make a profit, no big deal. ManU openly admitted this when they went public. I don't think big companies out there appreciate scandals, antics. You will find many examples: sponsors withdrawing that is.

It's like "poor" Roman. He possibly wanted to launder his image (and maybe his millions too) but in the end his name ended up being associated with thuggish trolls like John Terry and Mourinho

You obviously admire the man. Fair enough. Sorry to burst your bubble but there are many managers out there who won right and left. No rocket science, having the best squad is the deal. And like it or not Mr M inherited great squads in Italy, Spain and England Again, he was supposed to win (but true, he coul have lost too).

And no, he did not get the job done this year (and the other years he failed).

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Post #: 2041
RE: European Championships - 12/21/2015 5:23:29 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I'm afraid the image is no small thing. Football clubs are run to make a profit, no big deal. ManU openly admitted this when they went public. I don't think big companies out there appreciate scandals, antics. You will find many examples: sponsors withdrawing that is.

It's like "poor" Roman. He possibly wanted to launder his image (and maybe his millions too) but in the end his name ended up being associated with thuggish trolls like John Terry and Mourinho

You obviously admire the man. Fair enough. Sorry to burst your bubble but there are many managers out there who won right and left. No rocket science, having the best squad is the deal. And like it or not Mr M inherited great squads in Italy, Spain and England Again, he was supposed to win (but true, he coul have lost too).

And no, he did not get the job done this year (and the other years he failed).
warspite1

quote:

I'm afraid the image is no small thing.


quote:

I don't think big companies out there appreciate scandals, antics.


Are you seriously feeling the need to tell me that image is important for corporates - particularly public companies? Er thanks.....

Of course image is important - and maybe Man Utd will run from Mourinho even if van Gaal comes up short. But who is behind Internazionale? Er the small matter of Pirelli - yes they have an image and they chose Jose. Real Madrid and the big Spanish banks. Yep didn't stop them either did it?

quote:

It's like "poor" Roman. He possibly wanted to launder his image (and maybe his millions too) but in the end his name ended up being associated with thuggish trolls like John Terry and Mourinho


Thuggish? Well John Terry is pretty fitting of that word. But then so is Roy Keane - but Ferguson gets a free pass does he? Franco Baresi was a choir boy was he?

quote:

You obviously admire the man


I find him at his best, charming and witty - at his worst, boorish, graceless and embarrassing. However, I can appreciate his contribution to the game. I can appreciate his achievements.

quote:

Sorry to burst your bubble but there are many managers out there who won right and left.


Disingenuous once again. There are a select number of managers who have won the champions league and the top divisional championships. To win so many, with different clubs, in different leagues - and with such little failure? No there are not many in his league at all.

quote:

No rocket science, having the best squad is the deal. And like it or not Mr M inherited great squads in Italy, Spain and England


Disingenuous and simply wrong once again. How many managers have inherited great squads and failed e.g. Benitez at Inter, Scolari at Chelsea. If the squads he inherited were so great - and won so much - why was he placed in as manager? Surely the previous incumbent at Porto and Inter had just won the Champions League? Surely the previous incumbent at Chelsea had won the top division? No? Oh..... maybe its not that easy eh?

quote:

And no, he did not get the job done this year (and the other years he failed).


So Ferguson, Wenger, Ancellotti, Mancini etc etc - none of these ever had a fallow year? Really? You sure about that? No, thought not because its more nonsense.

Sorry, your hatred of the man means you cannot see the wood for the trees. Ho hum....

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/21/2015 6:50:15 PM >

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Post #: 2042
RE: European Championships - 12/21/2015 6:20:18 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Disingenuous and simply wrong once again. How many managers have inherited great squads and failed e.g. Benitez at Inter, Scolari at Chelsea. If the squads he inherited were so great - and won so much - why was he placed in as manager? Surely the previous incumbent at Porto and Inter had just won the Champions League? Surely the previous incumbent at Chelsea had won the top division? No? Oh..... maybe its not that easy eh?


Maybe because few managers toured the financially doped teams as Mr M?

Van Gaal you say? He won leagues in Holland, Spain and Germany Oh, and one Champions League... Has Louis ever tried to convince us that he is the best manager in the world?

Benitez won Spanish league twice. And this vs Real Madrid and Barça (now that's complicated eh). Then he went to win one champions league that every authentic football fan will remember

You seem to forget that EVERY single year ONE manager necessarily wins the champions league and the top leagues.

And you're starting to sound like Mr M LOL Reminding everyone his bloody CV. As if this was a pissing contest. It is not.

Who's more important? An arrogant clown that wins with financially doped teams or someone that gives a really good fight with little means? I might say the latter perhaps.

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Post #: 2043
RE: European Championships - 12/21/2015 6:32:37 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Disingenuous and simply wrong once again. How many managers have inherited great squads and failed e.g. Benitez at Inter, Scolari at Chelsea. If the squads he inherited were so great - and won so much - why was he placed in as manager? Surely the previous incumbent at Porto and Inter had just won the Champions League? Surely the previous incumbent at Chelsea had won the top division? No? Oh..... maybe its not that easy eh?


Maybe because few managers toured the financially doped teams as Mr M?

Van Gaal you say? He won leagues in Holland, Spain and Germany Oh, and one Champions League... Has Louis ever tried to convince us that he is the best manager in the world?

Benitez won Spanish league twice. And this vs Real Madrid and Barça (now that's complicated eh). Then he went to win one champions league that every authentic football fan will remember

You seem to forget that EVERY single year ONE manager necessarily wins the champions league and the top leagues.

And you're starting to sound like Mr M LOL Reminding everyone his bloody CV. As if this was a pissing contest. It is not.

Who's more important? An arrogant clown that wins with financially doped teams or someone that gives a really good fight with little means? I might say the latter perhaps.
warspite1

quote:

Maybe because few managers toured the financially doped teams as Mr M?


You can tour who you like. Only success allows you to get jobs with the big buys. Where did Mancini go after Man City? Reason for that perhaps?

quote:

Van Gaal you say? He won leagues in Holland, Spain and Germany Oh, and one Champions League...


One or two failures there to. Ever read the official reason he left Bayern Munich???

quote:

Benitez won Spanish league twice. And this vs Real Madrid and Barça (now that's complicated eh). Then he went to win one champions league that every authentic football fan will remember


What did he win with the team he inherited from Mourinho at Inter? How's he doing so far at Real? How many premierships did he win at Liverpool?

quote:

You seem to forget that EVERY single year ONE manager necessarily wins the champions league and the top leagues.


?? And that' a different manager every year? And every winner then carries on a run of almost unbroken success at club after club? Okay.... but don't think so...

I am reminding you of his CV because you ignore his achievements. I couldn't give a toss what you think of Mourinho personally - that is your prerogative, but I do take exception to re-writing the record books.

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Post #: 2044
RE: European Championships - 12/21/2015 6:39:10 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		May I suggest that the players in Chelsea behaved liked spoiled children instead of professional football players. Performing that badly is a disgrace and a insult to the teams fans. I also suggest that the players should have been sacked before the manager. But that is not the easy route to take so the manager got to go.



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Post #: 2045
RE: European Championships - 12/22/2015 10:35:23 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

May I suggest that the players in Chelsea behaved liked spoiled children instead of professional football players. Performing that badly is a disgrace and a insult to the teams fans. I also suggest that the players should have been sacked before the manager. But that is not the easy route to take so the manager got to go.


Orm, do you really believe that? Just for the sake of your argument, let's remember that Mr M wears out basically everyone. This is obvious when you look at his squads. By the way, Fabio Capello said that.

And anyways, that's 100% Mourinho's responsability. In other words, he failed at managing his team.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I am reminding you of his CV because you ignore his achievements. I couldn't give a toss what you think of Mourinho personally - that is your prerogative, but I do take exception to re-writing the record books.


You got it utterly wrong. I am not ignoring his achievements. I am well aware of them. The more I read you, the more I see you follow a Machiavellian approach ie the end justifies the means.

This not a war where you must crack your enemy's skull. This is a sport. What about beauty, sportmanship, humility? Poking another manager in the eye (that does not make him a thug / sociopath eh)? Parking the bus (in fact an expensive Ferrari) like a relegation fodder team? And you talk about his contribution to football? ROFL

By the way, some teams might say they were utterly robbed when he won 2 Champions League... With Porto and Inter.. And then he accuses winners (when he's lost) of robbing!

I don't give a rat's a*se about his CV. The sooner he disappears from football the better.

Now let's see if ManU are crazy enough to hire this clown

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Post #: 2046
RE: European Championships - 12/22/2015 11:24:21 AM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
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Status: offline 		Really interesting article about Mourinho at the Guardian.

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Post #: 2047
RE: European Championships - 12/24/2015 9:37:27 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Really interesting article about Mourinho at the Guardian.
warspite1

Yes it was. Here is another.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3371700/MARTIN-SAMUEL-blame-Jose-Mourinho-not-Chelsea-s-players-mess-try-explaining-Champions-League-resurgence-Eden-Hazard-s-strange-season-t-remember-disappointed-player.html

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Post #: 2048
RE: European Championships - 12/24/2015 9:55:05 AM   
Orm


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From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Thank you for both links. That was interesting reading.

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Post #: 2049
RE: European Championships - 12/24/2015 9:57:35 AM   
terje439


Posts: 6813
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Status: offline 		Have to admit, I laughed at this one from SunSport

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Post #: 2050
RE: European Championships - 12/24/2015 3:34:32 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

Have to admit, I laughed at this one from SunSport

Yes. That was a bit funny. But at the same time it was a bit mean.

Thank you for sharing.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 2051
RE: European Championships - 1/3/2016 11:16:20 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
Status: offline 		I am more convinced than ever that Arsenal are going to win the Premiership.

Come on Leicester... or Man City or .... anyone!

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 2052
RE: European Championships - 1/4/2016 9:00:20 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

If the rumours are true what on earth are Real Madrid playing at?? Rafa Benitez? Really? Wow.....

Yes, Benitez next year will be Madrid coach. He leave Napoli running, maybe Napoli people catch up with him with their pitchfork. Rafa is a good coach, but his problem is his tactic integralism; he never, never changed his style of plaiyng, all team on attack and f**k off the defense...maybe it work in Spain (but I doubt), maybe it work in Madrid (but again I doubt). In Italy, if you go only on attack, other team have heavy fun. Napoli took 54 gol , like the last 8/9 teams of Serie A.
And you win only if you took less goals than the others, this is history. I think Napoli forget him very soon.
warspite1

He clearly isn't completely clueless (he has actually won some stuff) but he has always failed at the big competitions (except of course that one, never to be repeated fluke that was the Champions League Final in 2005).

Look at what he did to Inter Milan. Jose Mourinho left the club as champions of Italy and Champions of Europe. Benitez destroyed the team within months - hell, even Spurs beat them in the Champions League!!!!

Napoli fans are taking to social media to complain he took them from 2nd to 5th....

My guess is that, unless Barcelona implode, it will end v. badly at Madrid... and within a year too.

warspite1

Well what do you know?


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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 2053
RE: European Championships - 1/5/2016 3:59:03 PM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I am more convinced than ever that Arsenal are going to win the Premiership.

Come on Leicester... or Man City or .... anyone!



Rather Arsenal than City!

And after two seasons of FM2016, I am surprised Liverpool has not offered me a contract

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"Hun skal torpederes!" - Birger Eriksen

("She is to be torpedoed!")

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Post #: 2054
RE: European Championships - 1/5/2016 5:45:28 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Status: offline 		Well, Benitez sacked What a trigger-happy their clown of a president is

After all, when the "best manager in the world" was appointed as Real Madrid coach, he was DESTROYED 5 - 0 by Barcelona aka the worst possible humiliation

Maybe Zidane will be a great coach, despite his lack of experience. I thought the same about Guardiola when he was appointed Barça manager.

As for the Premier League, if Liverpool can't lift the trophy, which I doubt they will, Leicester would be a nice champion. According to the wikipedia, a modest, non historical team. The Davids (vs Goliaths) of this world should win some time...

So I take it Warspite's archenemy is Arsenal (or just Wenger?)

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Post #: 2055
RE: European Championships - 1/5/2016 6:45:02 PM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		I thought of mentioning Mourinho when bringing up the fact that Benitez was sacked (when all one needed was a big budget to be successful apparently) but I thought ‘let it go’ as Queen Anna would say .

But as you mentioned how awful a 5-0 defeat must be – destroyed in fact – like it was the worst thing ever to befall a top manager, how about:
Champions League semi-final: Bayern Munich (Guardiola) 0-4 Real Madrid

Premier League: Liverpool 5-1 Arsenal (Wenger) or try Man Utd 8-2 Arsenal (Wenger) or perhaps the League Cup Semi-Final: Tottenham 5-1 Arsenal (Wenger)

Premier League: Chelsea 5-0 Manchester United (Ferguson) or Liverpool 4-0 Manchester United (Ferguson)

La Liga: Atletico Madrid 4-0 Real Madrid (Ancelotti) or perhaps Champions League Final: Liverpool 3-3 AC Milan (Ancelotti) 0-3 at half-time!

Funny ol' game this football lark isn't it?

And yes, as a Spurs fan, Arsenal are [censored in the name of decency on this family friendly forum]


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 2056
RE: European Championships - 1/5/2016 7:06:36 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I thought of mentioning Mourinho when bringing up the fact that Benitez was sacked (when all one needed was a big budget to be successful apparently) but I thought ‘let it go’ as Queen Anna would say .

But as you mentioned how awful a 5-0 defeat must be – destroyed in fact – like it was the worst thing ever to befall a top manager,


Mourinho was explicitly hired to terminate Barça hegemony. Which is why the 5 - 0 says all you need to know. Looks like Benitez was not given a lot of time after all, unlike Mourinho. A 5 - 0 is an humiliating score for an aristocratic team like Real Madrid (especially when his tormentor is their archenemy aka Barça)

And yes, it's a good thing football has plenty of such weird scores

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Post #: 2057
RE: European Championships - 1/5/2016 7:23:05 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I thought of mentioning Mourinho when bringing up the fact that Benitez was sacked (when all one needed was a big budget to be successful apparently) but I thought ‘let it go’ as Queen Anna would say .

But as you mentioned how awful a 5-0 defeat must be – destroyed in fact – like it was the worst thing ever to befall a top manager,


Mourinho was explicitly hired to terminate Barça hegemony. Which is why the 5 - 0 says all you need to know. Looks like Benitez was not given a lot of time after all, unlike Mourinho. A 5 - 0 is an humiliating score for an aristocratic team like Real Madrid (especially when his tormentor is their archenemy aka Barça)

And yes, it's a good thing football has plenty of such weird scores
warspite1

And Ferguson was hired to eliminate Liverpool's stranglehold on the first division. Good job (for United) that the United board gave Ferguson time wasn't it?

5-0 vs Barca tells who, all they need to know about what? Its one scoreline. All great managers (as shown for a fact above) suffer them - and as in the case of Ferguson and Wenger - they can happen against your bitter rivals too.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 2058
RE: European Championships - 1/5/2016 7:44:32 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I thought of mentioning Mourinho when bringing up the fact that Benitez was sacked (when all one needed was a big budget to be successful apparently) but I thought ‘let it go’ as Queen Anna would say .

But as you mentioned how awful a 5-0 defeat must be – destroyed in fact – like it was the worst thing ever to befall a top manager,


Mourinho was explicitly hired to terminate Barça hegemony. Which is why the 5 - 0 says all you need to know. Looks like Benitez was not given a lot of time after all, unlike Mourinho. A 5 - 0 is an humiliating score for an aristocratic team like Real Madrid (especially when his tormentor is their archenemy aka Barça)

And yes, it's a good thing football has plenty of such weird scores
warspite1

And Ferguson was hired to eliminate Liverpool's stranglehold on the first division. Good job (for United) that the United board gave Ferguson time wasn't it?

5-0 vs Barca tells who, all they need to know about what? Its one scoreline. All great managers (as shown for a fact above) suffer them - and as in the case of Ferguson and Wenger - they can happen against your bitter rivals too.



That 5 - 0 showed Mourinho failed (his first year). He was given time the same (every manager should be given time, always) and managed to win one Liga title (not an heroic thing for aristocrats like Real by the way, just business as usual).

Ferguson's example, career is unique. He started really bad (almost sacked at some point) but in the end he managed to succeed. And more important, this during 2 decades ie rebuilding the team various times. To me this rebuilding thing makes him a really great manager. And I know he was not a very nice man

Needless to say, I want ALL the managers to be given time. Mourinho included In that sense English football was a positive example back in the 90s IMO (no mega millionaires sacking managers right and left).

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Post #: 2059
RE: European Championships - 1/5/2016 8:03:29 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I thought of mentioning Mourinho when bringing up the fact that Benitez was sacked (when all one needed was a big budget to be successful apparently) but I thought ‘let it go’ as Queen Anna would say .

But as you mentioned how awful a 5-0 defeat must be – destroyed in fact – like it was the worst thing ever to befall a top manager,


Mourinho was explicitly hired to terminate Barça hegemony. Which is why the 5 - 0 says all you need to know. Looks like Benitez was not given a lot of time after all, unlike Mourinho. A 5 - 0 is an humiliating score for an aristocratic team like Real Madrid (especially when his tormentor is their archenemy aka Barça)

And yes, it's a good thing football has plenty of such weird scores
warspite1

And Ferguson was hired to eliminate Liverpool's stranglehold on the first division. Good job (for United) that the United board gave Ferguson time wasn't it?

5-0 vs Barca tells who, all they need to know about what? Its one scoreline. All great managers (as shown for a fact above) suffer them - and as in the case of Ferguson and Wenger - they can happen against your bitter rivals too.



That 5 - 0 showed Mourinho failed (his first year).

warspite1

Same as all managers at some point in their careers.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 2060
RE: European Championships - 1/9/2016 6:10:24 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		FA Cup Third Round weekend

Sadly it is a whole 25-years ago that Spurs last won the cup - and we have lost SIX semi-finals since then....

Hope is not high for this season - particularly as we have Leicester City in the third round (who beat us last season and are second in the Premiership) - but you never know. We can always hope

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 2061
RE: European Championships - 1/28/2016 12:07:21 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
Status: offline 		Well having overcome Leicester City in a replay its the FA Cup 4th Round at the weekend.

Tottenham have a trip to nearby Colchester United. On paper an easy game - in reality a potential banana skin and giant killing.... Which will it be?

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 2062
RE: European Championships - 1/28/2016 1:34:43 PM   
Orm


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quote:

Which will it be?

A though match because it is not nice football weather and the "stars" do not want to get dirty?

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Post #: 2063
RE: European Championships - 1/30/2016 6:30:49 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
Status: offline 		Well not much evidence of the 'romance of the cup'

All the big guns through. Let's hope that Carlisle or the MK Dons can do something tomorrow.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 2064
RE: European Championships - 1/30/2016 6:50:10 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
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From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I kind of like that the big teams advance in the cup. It is a sign that they take the cup seriously and really wants to win it.

That has, unfortunately, not been the case in Sweden. It has been quite common that the teams mostly play their reserves in the cup. Maybe they only rest a couple of their best players in the later stages if they get that far.

And pre-season training matches often draw more audience than the cup matches. This in part because the big teams are forced to play away against minor teams. Not even the cup final get a large audience (with a few exceptions).

< Message edited by Orm -- 1/30/2016 7:53:01 PM >

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Post #: 2065
RE: European Championships - 1/30/2016 7:56:39 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I kind of like that the big teams advance in the cup. It is a sign that they take the cup seriously and really wants to win it.

That has, unfortunately, not been the case in Sweden. It has been quite common that the teams mostly play their reserves in the cup.
warspite1

Sadly not. The English cup is no different for many teams. The money involved in the Premiership is just sooo great now so that clubs like Newcastle United (six times winners) have said that the cups are an unwanted distraction.

Very sad situation.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2066
RE: European Championships - 2/14/2016 9:12:29 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

What the.....!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3052321/Tottenham-consider-sharing-new-400m-stadium-NFL-London-franchise.html
warspite1

How is two pitches even possible? I mean won't they have to switch at least once a day or the one not visible will die??

If they can do it THAT will be impressive!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3446026/Tottenham-Hotspur-stadium-share-League-Wembley-cup-ties-Milton-Keynes.html



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2067
RE: European Championships - 2/18/2016 8:17:20 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Not for the first time this season Spurs totally dominate a half but..... Still, we have an away goal to take back to London so we'll see.

Meanwhile in Manchester...

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2068
RE: European Championships - 2/18/2016 8:36:32 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

Meanwhile in Manchester...

As always I am confused. What is happening in Manchester?

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2069
RE: European Championships - 2/18/2016 8:37:23 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

Not for the first time this season Spurs totally dominate a half but..... Still, we have an away goal to take back to London so we'll see.

I thought that a 1-1 draw away was considered a good result.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2070
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