No real comments. I know you have a plan or plans.
But consider that China, while having appeal, requires walking everywhere across vast distances on often crappy roads. The rail network runs where it runs and that's not really where you want to go. OTOH, you have the greatest amphibious lift capability the world has ever seen or will likely see.
Also, while 32,000 VP gains are great, you still have not faced the kamis. The ships in 1945 are big and VP-rich. Now you lose APAs, not xALKs. No matter your route you are heading into dense air fields from now on. You don't need a Level 9 AF to fly kamis from. A 2 works OK for sniping.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
No real comments. I know you have a plan or plans.
But consider that China, while having appeal, requires walking everywhere across vast distances on often crappy roads. The rail network runs where it runs and that's not really where you want to go. OTOH, you have the greatest amphibious lift capability the world has ever seen or will likely see.
Also, while 32,000 VP gains are great, you still have not faced the kamis. The ships in 1945 are big and VP-rich. Now you lose APAs, not xALKs. No matter your route you are heading into dense air fields from now on. You don't need a Level 9 AF to fly kamis from. A 2 works OK for sniping.
And, as you say, tick tock.
That is my worry about China too...easy to bog down and it will take forever to shift.
Kamis is a worry. As you say Erik havn´t used it in great numbers yet. The key will be to get a massive CAP up soaking the strikes and defeating them one by one. Last strike at the CVs I had a 750 plane CAP up. I hope to be able to boost that to 1100-1200 fighters on CAP using reinforcements and decreasing the strike package escort. This should allow the CAP to stay strong during the 100s of fragments that will launch.
A big worry here is that LBA strikes will come first slowly wearing the CAP down and lastly a KB strike that will manage to punch through...
No real comments. I know you have a plan or plans.
But consider that China, while having appeal, requires walking everywhere across vast distances on often crappy roads. The rail network runs where it runs and that's not really where you want to go. OTOH, you have the greatest amphibious lift capability the world has ever seen or will likely see.
Also, while 32,000 VP gains are great, you still have not faced the kamis. The ships in 1945 are big and VP-rich. Now you lose APAs, not xALKs. No matter your route you are heading into dense air fields from now on. You don't need a Level 9 AF to fly kamis from. A 2 works OK for sniping.
And, as you say, tick tock.
That is my worry about China too...easy to bog down and it will take forever to shift.
Kamis is a worry. As you say Erik havn´t used it in great numbers yet. The key will be to get a massive CAP up soaking the strikes and defeating them one by one. Last strike at the CVs I had a 750 plane CAP up. I hope to be able to boost that to 1100-1200 fighters on CAP using reinforcements and decreasing the strike package escort. This should allow the CAP to stay strong during the 100s of fragments that will launch.
A big worry here is that LBA strikes will come first slowly wearing the CAP down and lastly a KB strike that will manage to punch through...
I've never played against kamis under the recent betas. I don't know what coordination is like now. In the past no amount of CAP really did the trick. When raids are massive some get through just as with bombing/torping. The difference is the kamis hit more often and they do a lot more damage, especially if also carrying bombs.
At this stage do the best you can, but your fighter pools are weaker than you want. You're going to get hurt.
The key for me and kamis is . . . make sure what you aim for is worth it. Don't dork around. Go for an objective that sets up the end game.
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The BETA changes everything. CVs are incredibly powerful now. Not only on the defense but they have an unparalleled ability to coordinate strikes the LBA simply cannot do.
To be completely honest I don´t really think LBA alone can punch through a late war allied CV fleet. I may be foolish and might end up eating my own words but thats what I believe. I launched big strike against the KB from Cotabato (level 9 AF with loads of Air HQs). I think I had 200 TBs, 400 DBs and 400 escorts. Erik got less than 100 planes on CAP over the KB. Yet none of my strikes managed to punch through. We have seen the same thing on Jap strikes against allied CVs.
If 100 planes on CAP can do that. What can 1000 planes on CAP do? I feel the biggest danger is getting the CAP worn out. Hence I feel numbers are really important.
But as I said I may come to regret my confidence in the near future.
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Kind of a side comment, but strikes from CVs seem to be better coordinated than strikes from airfields. I may have to experiment with kami units on CVs. Even with air HQ(s) and aviation support, it's tough to get much coordination in the strikes. Maybe numbers can overwhelm, but it would take a lot.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Kind of a side comment, but strikes from CVs seem to be better coordinated than strikes from airfields. I may have to experiment with kami units on CVs. Even with air HQ(s) and aviation support, it's tough to get much coordination in the strikes. Maybe numbers can overwhelm, but it would take a lot.
From what I can tell from the game (havn´t tested it in sandbox) the CV strikes were completely unchanged from whatever michaelm changed in the BETA. So they seem to work the same as "pre BETA". LBA strikes though are horrible and against a massive CV CAP I just can´t imagine anything getting through.
Again, I might come to regret that belief eventually!
Kind of a side comment, but strikes from CVs seem to be better coordinated than strikes from airfields. I may have to experiment with kami units on CVs. Even with air HQ(s) and aviation support, it's tough to get much coordination in the strikes. Maybe numbers can overwhelm, but it would take a lot.
From what I can tell from the game (havn´t tested it in sandbox) the CV strikes were completely unchanged from whatever michaelm changed in the BETA. So they seem to work the same as "pre BETA". LBA strikes though are horrible and against a massive CV CAP I just can´t imagine anything getting through.
Again, I might come to regret that belief eventually!
I want to see you risk a dozen carriers to kamis. Please! I REALLY want to see!!!
Remember too, kamis might all be 400 kt. fighters, not high and slow torpedo bombers with the fighters poking along in escort. Five-hundred Jacks coming at 100 feet? And 300 at 20,000? Run that and let us know. I'm willing to be wrong.
< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 11/13/2013 7:23:23 PM >
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
quote:
ORIGINAL: JocMeister
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Kind of a side comment, but strikes from CVs seem to be better coordinated than strikes from airfields. I may have to experiment with kami units on CVs. Even with air HQ(s) and aviation support, it's tough to get much coordination in the strikes. Maybe numbers can overwhelm, but it would take a lot.
From what I can tell from the game (havn´t tested it in sandbox) the CV strikes were completely unchanged from whatever michaelm changed in the BETA. So they seem to work the same as "pre BETA". LBA strikes though are horrible and against a massive CV CAP I just can´t imagine anything getting through.
Again, I might come to regret that belief eventually!
I want to see you risk a dozen carriers to kamis. Please! I REALLY want to see!!!
Remember too, kamis might all be 400 kt. fighters, not high and slow torpedo bombers with the fighters poking along in escort. Five-hundred Jacks coming at 100 feet? And 300 at 20,000? Run that and let us know. I'm willing to be wrong.
I really hope he doesn´t go down to 100 ft. Engine doesn´t handle that well at all and we have been avoiding going under 4000ft since the issue arose in 43.
I don´t think Erik has converted many fighter squadrons to Kamis. Since they can´t be converted back I think he rather have fighters in the air. At least for now.
You will get your wish fulfilled in a near future. Can´t stay out of range from his Kamis for the rest of the game. Its the same thing as saying "this is as far as I go". I do intend to bring everything though. So that about 3500 CV aircraft.
I know you have had some bad experiences with Kamis against the AI (10 CVs lost? ) but the BETA really is another ball game then the official. Those 800 Jacks would come in one 200-300 strike followed by a 100-150 and then 10-20 small ones. If I can get a 1000 plane CAP up plus a couple of hundred fighters on LRCAP I really doubt you can break through using the BETA.
Speculation of course but my experience with the BETA so far seems to indicate this.
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Not going under 4k is really going to limit the effectiveness of kamis, IMO.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
quote:
ORIGINAL: JocMeister
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Kind of a side comment, but strikes from CVs seem to be better coordinated than strikes from airfields. I may have to experiment with kami units on CVs. Even with air HQ(s) and aviation support, it's tough to get much coordination in the strikes. Maybe numbers can overwhelm, but it would take a lot.
From what I can tell from the game (havn´t tested it in sandbox) the CV strikes were completely unchanged from whatever michaelm changed in the BETA. So they seem to work the same as "pre BETA". LBA strikes though are horrible and against a massive CV CAP I just can´t imagine anything getting through.
Again, I might come to regret that belief eventually!
I want to see you risk a dozen carriers to kamis. Please! I REALLY want to see!!!
Remember too, kamis might all be 400 kt. fighters, not high and slow torpedo bombers with the fighters poking along in escort. Five-hundred Jacks coming at 100 feet? And 300 at 20,000? Run that and let us know. I'm willing to be wrong.
This is exactly the sort of testing I need to do before our game gets to late '43 . I think I'll keep the results secret!
Not going under 4k is really going to limit the effectiveness of kamis, IMO.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
quote:
ORIGINAL: JocMeister
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Kind of a side comment, but strikes from CVs seem to be better coordinated than strikes from airfields. I may have to experiment with kami units on CVs. Even with air HQ(s) and aviation support, it's tough to get much coordination in the strikes. Maybe numbers can overwhelm, but it would take a lot.
From what I can tell from the game (havn´t tested it in sandbox) the CV strikes were completely unchanged from whatever michaelm changed in the BETA. So they seem to work the same as "pre BETA". LBA strikes though are horrible and against a massive CV CAP I just can´t imagine anything getting through.
Again, I might come to regret that belief eventually!
I want to see you risk a dozen carriers to kamis. Please! I REALLY want to see!!!
Remember too, kamis might all be 400 kt. fighters, not high and slow torpedo bombers with the fighters poking along in escort. Five-hundred Jacks coming at 100 feet? And 300 at 20,000? Run that and let us know. I'm willing to be wrong.
This is exactly the sort of testing I need to do before our game gets to late '43 . I think I'll keep the results secret!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna Not going under 4k is really going to limit the effectiveness of kamis, IMO.
Its not just kamis being affected by this. But everything flying. I havn´t tested this but someone else did. I think it was Captain Cruft? Basically by going low enough you always go through. I think it has to do with how detection times work. If you set something at 100ft you are going to get like 4 minutes of detection time. Even if you have 400 fighters on 500ft CAP the low detection time guarantee the strike will go through. Whoever did the testing was able to sink the entire allied CV fleet 100% of the times. Guaranteed. He decided to not exploit this though. Pretty sure it was Cruft?
This was pre BETA though. Don´t know if anything has changed in this regard in the BETAs.
As I said I havn´t tested this myself but we saw evidence of this in 43 when Erik was doing a lot of striking at 1000 ft where CAP was completely unable to even interact with incoming strikes regardless of settings. So after that none of us have been going that low. I have no reason to believe Erik is going to start exploiting that all of the sudden.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna Early activation would be at once dreadful and fun.
So far i this game Kamis havn´t made any impact. But Erik hasn´t really used them either. I think he is of the same philosophy as GJ (so am I). Why use Kamis as long as you have good enough pilots? Sure they might make a bigger boom but bombing also makes a portion of them able to go back and try another day.
Having no experience at all (doh!) with Kamis I see it as an option once pilots quality starts to really go down. A big thing to remember here is that once converted to Kami you can NEVER convert back. And need can change throughout a year or two.
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10th-11th February -45 ______________________________________________________________________________
Obviously the center of attention right now is Luzon
------------------------ Luzon ------------------------ With Manila secured the Allies push forward. Armor has already reached central Luzon. With the help of the 2Es I hope to clear the road north quickly. I want to box the Japanese in at Lingayen and cut them off from the north. So armor race north will the infantry pursuit the battered defenders of Manila.
At the same time we start dismantling Cotabato and Iloilo as rear bases. From now on the area and bases around Manila will take over that function. I have already prepared much of this in advance and hope to move everything to Luzon in just two weeks.
We also use the 4E armada to start closing the airfields on Luzon. There will be no Japanese aerial evacuation from Luzon.
------------------------ Thailand/Indochina ------------------------ Things are progressing nicely. But it looks like Erik has lifted out a lot of troops under my nose at CRB. I hate this aspect of the game. Nonetheless I´ve decided to let him do that. So what if he can get two IDs out? All the heavy equipment will be left making those two IDs almost useless and a lot easier to kill somewhere else without their equipment.
Found a roadblock of 15 Units in the jungles between Nanning and Lang Son. That makes a lot more sense than what I´ve seen earlier. Looks like 50.000 men in x2 terrain with more coming. Another superstack forming? Might get tricky depending on what kind of troops they are.
In a sense this was positive because it made my choice on the next move a lot easier. I´ll outline my next move in a bigger post with some maps this weekend. Basically I won´t give up on China but I won´t shift the SOPAC/SWPAC advance towards China. What I perceive as big mistake on Eriks part is too enticing to miss out on. This mistake also goes in line with my earlier thinking. So it fits the bill nice and snuggly.
------------------------ DEI ------------------------ BFs and artillery will arrive at Soerabaja shortly. I´m going to pull the IDs and armor I talked about earlier. I really have no interest in Java and I´m just taking it because Erik left it empty for me. So I will clear out Java and possible land on Sumatra depending on how it looks. But it will be done with a skeleton force.
------------------------ Strat bombing ------------------------ Bombers will try and hit the HI at Hiroshima/Kure tomorrow. Hopefully losses will be light and results good enough to warrant strikes like this in the future.
But it looks like Erik has lifted out a lot of troops under my nose at CRB. I hate this aspect of the game. Nonetheless I´ve decided to let him do that. So what if he can get two IDs out? All the heavy equipment will be left making those two IDs almost useless and a lot easier to kill somewhere else without their equipment.
Do you have an AF close by that you can base some of your long ranged fighters on LRCAP over CRB to intercept his transport planes??
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ny59giants
quote:
But it looks like Erik has lifted out a lot of troops under my nose at CRB. I hate this aspect of the game. Nonetheless I´ve decided to let him do that. So what if he can get two IDs out? All the heavy equipment will be left making those two IDs almost useless and a lot easier to kill somewhere else without their equipment.
Do you have an AF close by that you can base some of your long ranged fighters on LRCAP over CRB to intercept his transport planes??
Yeah at Bangkok. But its 4 hexes away so only the P51Ds can reach. I´m going to give it a go next turn and see if I can nail anything. I hate those transports! Grrr!
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Got the math a bit wrong in my above post. This is the new transport intercept formula in the BETA. It was changed after I discovered transport interception didn´t work.
quote:
ORIGINAL: michaelm
At the moment that is how it looks. Not changed from WITP. Air transport phase is outside the normal air phase so has its own 'rules'. The beta just released changes the formula to (3*range +2), plus lets CAP with DT get correct range.
So 4 hexes mean 12+2 = 14 hexes which means P51 and P38s can reach!
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Low-level Naval Attack
The Beta makes this vastly less effective. Nothing to do with CAP interception, it's the enhanced flak. Whereas previously (in sandbox) I could sink everything in sight with 500 planes attacking over a few days, using the Beta only about 25% of the targets even get damaged and the striking airgroups are pretty much wiped out in one go. The targets in question being large mixed CV, BB and Amphibious TFs.
We still have a HR against it our game though, except for F, FB and AB types.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft
Low-level Naval Attack
The Beta makes this vastly less effective. Nothing to do with CAP interception, it's the enhanced flak. Whereas previously (in sandbox) I could sink everything in sight with 500 planes attacking over a few days, using the Beta only about 25% of the targets even get damaged and the striking airgroups are pretty much wiped out in one go. The targets in question being large mixed CV, BB and Amphibious TFs.
We still have a HR against it our game though, except for F, FB and AB types.
Ah, so I remembered correctly. I have to dig that up in your AAR and reread it.
Glad to hear its working better in the BETA. So basically its the flak disrupting the attack runs causing less hits and shooting down planes? But CAP is still unable to interact with the low level incoming raids?
< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/14/2013 4:21:11 PM >
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Yes, with the beta and database changes, I think low nav attacks are probably working fine now. Still, flying in low cuts the detection time a lot... It would be the flak that really makes a difference, especially the Allied flak.
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12th February -45 ______________________________________________________________________________
Some good progress this turn as no less the 5 bases are liberated by the allies!
------------------------ Luzon ------------------------ After some aerial strike the armor blast the opposition at Cabanatuan.
quote:
Ground combat at Cabanatuan (80,76)
Allied Deliberate attack
Attacking force 7114 troops, 21 guns, 1098 vehicles, Assault Value = 799
Defending force 4162 troops, 12 guns, 94 vehicles, Assault Value = 21
Allied adjusted assault: 357
Japanese adjusted defense: 3
Allied assault odds: 119 to 1 (fort level 3)
Allied forces CAPTURE Cabanatuan !!!
Combat modifiers Defender: Attacker:
Japanese ground losses: 2350 casualties reported Squads: 39 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 144 destroyed, 42 disabled Engineers: 37 destroyed, 0 disabled Guns lost 15 (15 destroyed, 0 disabled) Vehicles lost 72 (72 destroyed, 0 disabled) Units retreated 2 Units destroyed 4
Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!
Assaulting units: 671th Tank Destroyer Battalion 5th USMC Tank Battalion 192nd Tank Battalion CenPac Amphib Tank Brigade 1st USMC Tank Battalion 716th Tank Battalion 2nd USMC Tank Battalion 767th Tank Battalion 3rd USMC Tank Battalion 3rd NZ Armoured Sqn
Defending units: 43rd Recon Regiment 28th Engr Rgt /1 187th JAAF AF Bn 216th Naval Const Bn /1 14th Area Army 13th Air Fleet /2
Armor continues north. The infantry reaches Clark. I ordered an attack here tomorrow despite the x3 terrain. Most of the Japanese troops are the shattered units from Manila. I don´t want to wreck my own troops messing with the timetable.
------------------------ Indochina ------------------------ Definitely looks like another Superstack forming. This will be Mk. 5. Sadly I can´t walk around this one. I don´t have the troops to both advance into China and make sure the LOC stays open.
Hmmm.
------------------------ DEI ------------------------ Good progress here with another 2 empty bases cleared. We march on towards Soerabaja.
------------------------ Strat bombing ------------------------ The strike at Hiroshima/Kure was a complete failure. Not a single bomb hit the target. Only positive here is that I only lost 2 B29s. But it will be another 2 weeks to repair fatigue. I might try again though as weather was bad.
< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/15/2013 9:20:17 AM >
Definitely looks like another Superstack forming. This will be Mk. 5. Sadly I can´t walk around this one. I don´t have the troops to both advance into China and make sure the LOC stays open.
SWPAC is getting close enough(w/ Manila) where you are in supporting range of 14th army ops.
So this is where we are going. The last Japanese stronghold. Erik has turned this into a massive fortress. Two level 9 AFs, 1 Level 5 AF and 2 Level 4 AFs. This is supported by quarter of a million men!
In range of my landing will be no less than four level 9 AFs, the KB and the entire Japanese battlefleet. Against this will be the entire Allied navy in support of the SWPAC and SOPAC commands. I havn´t counted but I think its some 16 IDs and around 15k AV. I´m confident I can secure Formosa and destroy the last remaining portion of the Japanese army outside China. The tricky part will be getting the troops on shore. Erik will see me coming and will have time to get everything into position.
I will just have to take the punishment and hope I can survive the first day. If I do I can land on day 2. If I don´t I will have to retire in shame and Erik will have bought more time.
The sheer mass of Japanese assets have forced me to make so adjustments to the overall plan. First I need to establish LBA on Northern Luzon and if possible close the AFs at Takao and Taihoku. I doubt I can do that though but I will try. I will also have to postpone the landings into early April or even mid April. The reason for this is that I want the Lingayen troops to reprep for Formosa. The bulk of the Formosa landings is prepped for Takao. I need a secondary landing site. So the Lingayen (2200 AV) troops will land on the southern tip of Formosa to secure a good beachhead for reinforcement and supply.
I´ve decided to play this as safe as I can. Rushing the biggest Amphibious OP of the war is probably not a good idea. So new target date for the landing is April 5th.
Here is the Fortress Formosa captured on a screen. Quite formidable! Here is where I really hate the prep system and how clumsy and inflexible it is. In the real war commanders would probably have looked at this and decided its not worth it. But I started prepping for it 2 months ago when there were only about 75k troops on Formosa. If I want to go somewhere else now I would need almost 3 months of new prepp time. Not an option at this stage when the clock is ticking...
Congratulations on the successful conclusion of "Malingrad" looks like the capture of Luzon is now just a formality.
The Formosa operation is going to be tough (nothing like a bit of understatement ). Are you planning to land at more than one base on the rail line? The reason I ask is have you factored in a way to cut the rail line to prevent him simply swamping the landing site with units from the other bases? Have you any plans to take any of the smaller off shore islands Batan or Ishigaki Island to give you potential LRCAP or is this a case of everything and the kitchen sink is going to Formosa?
Anyway good luck for when the time comes. One small point you are titling your posts as 44 which might be slightly confusing to casual readers.
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Hi, why are you trying to smash your head against the strongest part of the wall? Why all allies think they just can do with force and without brain? Have you read any of the military classics? Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, 36 stratagems? Couldn't you find a single sentence, that you can use for your game? Is really frontal assault the best thing you can up with at this stage of war????
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Powloon
Congratulations on the successful conclusion of "Malingrad" looks like the capture of Luzon is now just a formality.
The Formosa operation is going to be tough (nothing like a bit of understatement ). Are you planning to land at more than one base on the rail line? The reason I ask is have you factored in a way to cut the rail line to prevent him simply swamping the landing site with units from the other bases? Have you any plans to take any of the smaller off shore islands Batan or Ishigaki Island to give you potential LRCAP or is this a case of everything and the kitchen sink is going to Formosa?
Anyway good luck for when the time comes. One small point you are titling your posts as 44 which might be slightly confusing to casual readers.
Great AAR as always Joc!
Thanks Powloon!
I was contemplating landing on the rail line at some point. But I decided it was a bit too risky getting in between Formosa and China unless I had the Chinese coast in my control. That seem unlikely to happen very soon so I decided to go for the southern part of Formosa instead!
I will indeed land on some of the smaller islands. I can´t remember which ones right now. But there are two of them that I will land on. Only small unit (RGTs) landings though but I hope naval and air bombardment can tip the balance. As you say even one or two airfields for LRCAP/Sweep will help a lot.
Good catch on the 44! I forgot to update my template! Sorted it now!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Barb
Hi, why are you trying to smash your head against the strongest part of the wall? Why all allies think they just can do with force and without brain? Have you read any of the military classics? Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, 36 stratagems? Couldn't you find a single sentence, that you can use for your game? Is really frontal assault the best thing you can up with at this stage of war????
just my 2 Euro cents
As I wrote in my post (I quoted it below as you seem to have missed it...): The limiting factor is prep time and prep time doesn´t care one bit about "Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, 36 stratagems"...
quote:
ORIGINAL: JocMeister Here is where I really hate the prep system and how clumsy and inflexible it is. In the real war commanders would probably have looked at this (Formosa) and decided its not worth it. But I started prepping for it 2 months ago when there were only about 75k troops on Formosa. If I want to go somewhere else now I would need almost 3 months of new prepp time. Not an option at this stage when the clock is ticking...
< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/15/2013 9:36:31 AM >
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Manila liberated!!! - 
. I think I'll keep the results secret!
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