RE: Pricing Suggestion

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:37:36 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

That said, Aurelian is proving himself thoroughly unsatisfying as a debating partner,

Right back at ya.

Especially as you haven't provided what I've asked for.

No. Showing me MG data which I already have doesn't count.

I want what I outlined earlier.

BTW, what does an app store have to do with this game?

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 9/27/2013 9:13:46 PM >

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Post #: 601

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:38:37 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

Its my personality

quote:

ORIGINAL: gexmex

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

Lol yep but she's no jewellery fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

This is getting serious I'm just trying to figure how to placate my wife lol.

Jewelry always, or almost always, works.

No Jewelry? No handbags? How do you appease her????????????????????????? haha

That works too!!

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Post #: 602

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:41:46 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

. Honour has been satisfied. You get to declare victory and walk off into the sunset now.

Mine has. And as far as victory, nah, don't feel like walking off into the sunset. Too early.

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Post #: 603

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:49:47 PM

dutchman55555

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Well, I HAVE bought forth points in relation to everything you've said (seriously, I've written a lot of stuff here, and I do think at least part of it is worth reading), but as it happens I DO have some hard numbers and I DO have a competitor running pretty much the same deal and getting much better results.

I admire your patience and persistence. I find it inspiring. But when someone reacts to your comment "I have brought new ideas to the table and not had them answered" with the response "Perhaps you should bring something new to the table", it is pretty much a lost cause. Especially when it occurs multiple times.

He knows exactly what he's doing, sir. Witness the several dozen posts concerning firearm ownership in a thread entitled RE: Pricing Suggestion, and yet he receives no official admonishment for breaking up the pace of the debate more successfully than a 5 yr old would jumping up and down and screaming "Look at me! Look at me!"

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Post #: 604

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:54:48 PM

dutchman55555

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

In the twenty pages of this thread I have not seen (user's name redacted) make a single post that wasn't a one or two line thin ad-hominem or a demand that people 'go away'.

And you won't see anything else, no matter how long this debate continues. I speak from experience.

(in reply to Alchenar)

Post #: 605

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:59:02 PM

dutchman55555

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Joined: 4/21/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Dude.

Matrix Games sold their games on the App Store.

They did much, much better than their PC sales - better than they expected.

I tried to analyze why.

Not only do I have data, I have Matrix's own freakin' data about their own freakin' games and their own freakin' sales.

Would you mind actually reading that stuff over before you decide that it's completely valueless?

I smile, seeing that my prediction came true. You have the patience of a saint, sir.

(in reply to Tomn)

Post #: 606

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 9:01:12 PM

Primarchx

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Page 21 Summary, Goldilocks style...

* This porridge is too hot!
* Good porridge needs to be hot.
* Everyone would eat porridge if the cooks deferred to the advise of internet culinary experts.
* I don't even eat porridge but have a strong opinion on its' ambient temperature.
* Huh? I like this porridge just the way it is. Please, sir, I want some more.

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 607

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 9:02:41 PM

dutchman55555

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/21/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

It's okay Tomn. Honour has been satisfied. You get to declare victory and walk off into the sunset now.

But with questions unanswered, and a potentially intelligent debate sabotaged as discussion of Russian firearms and baubles continues.

One could almost wonder what the effects of dropping a 5 yr into a college debate would be, and why someone would deliberately allow that...

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Post #: 608

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 9:06:19 PM

dutchman55555

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/21/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

Page 21 Summary, Goldilocks style...

* This porridge is too hot!
* Good porridge needs to be hot.
* Everyone would eat porridge if the cooks deferred to the advise of internet culinary experts.
* I don't even eat porridge but have a strong opinion on its' ambient temperature.
* Huh? I like this porridge just the way it is. Please, sir, I want some more.

You forgot "You eat porridge? Perhaps you should eat porridge."

(in reply to Primarchx)

Post #: 609

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 9:07:03 PM

Rob322

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob322

Can I ask for a moment whether it really matters if you convince anyone or not? Internet chat boards are usually a bad place to convince people to change their minds and agree with you. And why should they be? No one knows anything about the person they're arguing with. Even if credentials are stated, there's no clear reason why they should automatically be accepted. That's why these things typically devolve into nonsensical rants or name calling and people arguing past one another. Anyhow, who cares if Aurelian read what you wrote; isn't your argument with Matrix? It shouldn't be with the other players but with them. If Matrix is uninterested in discussing this with you then you're stuck. Or you're doomed to this thread, continually arguing with other players in an ever deepening spiral of bickering until eventually the thread is locked. It's your choice of course, I'm not telling you to stop or how to use your time but the folks still fighting the fight (whichever side) are just banging their heads against the wall right now.

Well, as it happens, I like debate. It's something of a hobby of mine. I like trading points, analyzing rebuttals, coming up with counter-arguments and wording it all with the best rhetoric I can come up with. It's fun, and it's interesting in and of itself - the more so when it's for a cause that does seem worthwhile. Call it verbal wargaming, y'know? And I do like to try and keep things on the level when I do so, and I do think that good debate can produce worthwhile discussions and change some key minds (my own being no exception, mark!) It might be a bit odd, and I might spend a bit too much time doing it, but I don't think anyone here is in any real position to throw the first stone when it comes to spending too much effort on their hobbies, eh?

That said, Aurelian is proving himself thoroughly unsatisfying as a debating partner, so yeah, I suppose I should back off him now. I don't suppose you'd have anything to share, though? You seem like a reasonable guy.

Nah. I may like debating as well but I have little time and I don't feel there's much to add to the discussion.

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Post #: 610

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 9:08:29 PM

smudge56

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Thank you

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

Its my personality

quote:

ORIGINAL: gexmex

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

Lol yep but she's no jewellery fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

This is getting serious I'm just trying to figure how to placate my wife lol.

Jewelry always, or almost always, works.

No Jewelry? No handbags? How do you appease her????????????????????????? haha

That works too!!

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 611

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 9:12:09 PM

Tomn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
I smile, seeing that my prediction came true. You have the patience of a saint, sir.

I appreciate the compliment - one would have to be inhuman not to - but I have to say that if he is in fact deliberately trying to derail debate, it's probably better to just block him and not mention him anymore instead of bringing it up, and to concentrate on the relevant facts at hand with those who are willing to talk the matter over - though, I'll admit, at the moment there doesn't seem to be too many people left to do so.

One thing I am actually curious about, though - how DOES Matrix explain the superb growth of their iOS products? What do they believe is the reason behind it? I realize it's unlikely at this point that any Matrix guys are still hanging around here, but I would be fascinated to hear the answer (fair warning, though, Matrix - if anyone of you do pop in to comment, I will probably argue the heck out of that comment until there's nothing left to argue about. The scorpion will still sting and all that, y'know?)

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Post #: 612

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 9:19:52 PM

Banquet

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I'm interested in Astronomy and bought some planetarium software to display the night sky on my computer. It's very detailed and cost me �250 (Starry Night Pro Plus)

I also like photography, and purchased Photoshop CS5 for about �600

I like making videos and Sony Vegas editing software costs me about �500

I like wargaming, including modern air/naval combat, and bought Command for �65

Does any of the software above have more 'data' or 'programming' or 'code' than normal priced games such as GTA V, EUIV, or HOI3? Probably not. It seems to me they are more expensive because there is a relatively small pool of people who can provide the knowledge to create the software, and because there is a relatively small potential number of buyers. I wish there were more people interested in software like this because then I would have to pay less for it, but I am mostly just grateful that there are people making the software at all.

I suspect, if I suggested to Adobe, that if they reduced the price of Photoshop to �30, more people would buy it, they would not take my advice. I'm not sure, then, why Matrix should either.

< Message edited by Banquet -- 9/27/2013 9:21:06 PM >

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Post #: 613

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 10:49:22 PM

gradenko2k

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I like wargaming, including contemporary tactical combat and strategic planning, and bought Combat Mission Beyond Overlord and Strategic Command European Theater for 3.99 USD each

http://www.gog.com/game/combat_mission_beyond_overlord
http://www.gog.com/game/strategic_command_european_theater

Alternatively, I also bought the not-at-all-for-the-fainthearted ARMA games for a tenner, IL-2 Sturmovik and DCS Black Shark for 5 bucks each and DCS A-10 Warthog for 10 dollars.

And, oh yeah, I also did buy Train Simulator 2012 for about 3 dollars way back when, and have since seen it upgraded to the 2013 and just yesterday the 2014 version, completely free.

Where is this view coming from that wargaming is this special snowflake that cannot possibly profit from imitating the pricing schemes of, say, Wargame: European Escalation?

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Post #: 614

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 11:25:20 PM

garymiboy

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From: West Yorkshire
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Damn, i wish this game wasnt so highly priced :(...we just had our first child.so,need all our money at the moment...looks good though congrats on all involved in it...but just out of my "free money" range

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Post #: 615

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 11:30:17 PM

Alchenar

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Joined: 8/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Banquet

I'm interested in Astronomy and bought some planetarium software to display the night sky on my computer. It's very detailed and cost me �250 (Starry Night Pro Plus)

I also like photography, and purchased Photoshop CS5 for about �600

I like making videos and Sony Vegas editing software costs me about �500

I like wargaming, including modern air/naval combat, and bought Command for �65

Does any of the software above have more 'data' or 'programming' or 'code' than normal priced games such as GTA V, EUIV, or HOI3? Probably not. It seems to me they are more expensive because there is a relatively small pool of people who can provide the knowledge to create the software, and because there is a relatively small potential number of buyers. I wish there were more people interested in software like this because then I would have to pay less for it, but I am mostly just grateful that there are people making the software at all.

I think there's another problem here, which is that wargamers (especially the ones here) have a bad habit of fetishising the 'one big wargame' that tries to be and do everything. You see it right here in this thread with people just declaring that COMMAND is better than Combat Mission because it is 'bigger', without any real appreciation of how that translates into depth in gameplay (I'd say they're probably about equal. It's just that the 'board' your units are playing on has a different colour base). It's the kind of attitude that results in ridiculous situations whereby WitE will roll attacks for every single rifle squad in a Corps v Corps battle, but all that actually matters is whether you hit 2:1 strength because most of the effects of combat kick in the retreat phase.

It's an attitude that results in developers spending 4-5 years and all their money trying to build that 'one big game' and then if it turns out to be junk it doesn't even matter because they can't change it and they still need to charge $100 to squeeze every little penny out of the early adopters who would buy the game at any price because otherwise they'll go bust.

The fact that Unity of Command, basically the successful modern indy wargame is what it is, is because the developers were smart: they kept their focus tight, their game small, their UI 21st century, and their costs and therefore price low and they got themselves onto Steam and made a decent pile of money for themselves. It'd probably be healthier for the hobby as a whole if developers made more Unity of Commands and got themselves some financial stability before embarking on their War of the Universe monster projects.

PS. Despite everyone, and I mean Paradox fans, Matrix fans, everyone agreeing that HOI3 is a terrible, terrible game, Paradox people have repeatedly said that it's their most financially successful game/franchise. There's a lot of people out there looking to spend money on a complicated looking WW2 grand strategy game, even one that gets panned by all the internet reviewers that Matrix are so scared of.

< Message edited by Alchenar -- 9/27/2013 11:37:04 PM >

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 11:47:01 PM

patroklus

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for the amount of game in Command I think the price is well justified
my 2 cents

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Post #: 617

RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 11:54:41 PM

Alchenar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: patroklus

for the amount of game in Command I think the price is well justified
my 2 cents

Ooh, I think this is a nuance that's also maybe got lost in the noise of the thread. I think that Command probably is very good and probably justified at that price.

The problem is that at this price point 'probably' just isn't good enough.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/28/2013 12:01:08 AM

Banquet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

PS. Despite everyone, and I mean Paradox fans, Matrix fans, everyone agreeing that HOI3 is a terrible, terrible game, Paradox people have repeatedly said that it's their most financially successful game/franchise. There's a lot of people out there looking to spend money on a complicated looking WW2 grand strategy game, even one that gets panned by all the internet reviewers that Matrix are so scared of.

Well, whatever the rights and wrongs - I have to say, Unity of Command is a little light for my taste and yet HOI3, with TFH is a very deep, ambitious game that I am more than happy to support and Paradox fans are too. I wouldn't want to live in a world with lots of games like Unity of Command and no HOI's or Commands... I guess we get what we're prepared to pay for :)

Attachment (1)

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/28/2013 12:11:31 AM

dutchman55555

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

The fact that Unity of Command, basically the successful modern indy wargame is what it is, is because the developers were smart: they kept their focus tight, their game small, their UI 21st century, and their costs and therefore price low and they got themselves onto Steam and made a decent pile of money for themselves.

No argument about Steam, but I'll expand it and say they got themselves out there, period.

You can buy UofC from Steam, Amazon, Desura, Gamer's Gate, even Matrix. And, of course, their own website. In fact the only expected place that I didn't find them was GOG, and I bet there's a story behind that one.

But we saw several years ago that Matrix contracted, yanking all their games from any site they could. And saw sales decease, I'm sure. Aw well, what do you expect from a niche hobby?

I did speak about self-fulfilling prophecies a few days ago, didn't I?

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/28/2013 12:36:29 AM

patroklus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

quote:

ORIGINAL: patroklus

for the amount of game in Command I think the price is well justified
my 2 cents

Ooh, I think this is a nuance that's also maybe got lost in the noise of the thread. I think that Command probably is very good and probably justified at that price.

The problem is that at this price point 'probably' just isn't good enough.

I believe I may know what you are experiencing with the price of Command game.
My other PC hobby is iRacing. For the longest time I could not justify subscribing to a online-only motorsport simulator such as iRAcing. The idea of having to subscribe to a racing service when there were many motorsport games that offered online race for the price of the disc/DL was holding me back. Two years ago I finally joined iRacing with a trial subscription and I have been hooked ever since. I have spent way a lot of money on iRAcing, but the enjoyment from the game makes it worth every penny.

< Message edited by patroklus -- 9/28/2013 12:38:17 AM >

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/28/2013 12:37:27 AM

patroklus

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/28/2013 12:49:13 AM

Vyshka

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From: Chandler, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: patroklus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

quote:

ORIGINAL: patroklus

for the amount of game in Command I think the price is well justified
my 2 cents

Ooh, I think this is a nuance that's also maybe got lost in the noise of the thread. I think that Command probably is very good and probably justified at that price.

The problem is that at this price point 'probably' just isn't good enough.

I believe I may know what you are experiencing with the price of Command game.
My other PC hobby is iRacing. For the longest time I could not justify subscribing to a online-only motorsport simulator such as iRAcing. The idea of having to subscribe to a racing service when there were many motorsport games that offered online race for the price of the disc/DL was holding me back. Two years ago I finally joined iRacing with a trial subscription and I have been hooked ever since. I have spent way a lot of money on iRAcing, but the enjoyment from the game makes it worth every penny.

Now that is spending some money. :) That is almost as bad as being a flight simmer.

Not that I have been one arguing, but it isn't an issue of affording it for me. Work pays more than enough to cover anything here, and as you can see from that earlier post it pretty much has. :) But at this point in life with a family, and a job that pays really well, but also requires a lot in return, the jump from $60 to $80 is enough where I don't feel the urge to drop the money on this right away. I have enough games that can take up what little time I do have to game already. I imagine at some point, when I have had a few blue moon pumpkin ales, I will finally break down and grab it. With Command Ops, that didn't occur until after the drop.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/28/2013 2:00:49 AM

bretg80

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Rockpapershotgun just previewed the game and their big first look was all about the pricing. I told you it would show up in the press.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/28/2013 2:30:27 AM

jjax

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bretg80

Rockpapershotgun just previewed the game and their big first look was all about the pricing. I told you it would show up in the press.

For those having trouble finding the blurb:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/09/27/the-flare-path-toad-array/#more-170535

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/28/2013 3:19:32 AM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bretg80

Rockpapershotgun just previewed the game and their big first look was all about the pricing. I told you it would show up in the press.

"I haven�t seen nearly enough of CMANO�s scrupulously simulated Harpoon-style engagements to judge whether the eye-watering tariff is justified."

Uh huh. Then who are they to judge then?

Surprised they're not complaining how SBP PE charges for demos with a time limit. A $125 game by the way.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 9/28/2013 3:26:59 AM >

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/28/2013 6:41:11 AM

Alchenar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: bretg80

Rockpapershotgun just previewed the game and their big first look was all about the pricing. I told you it would show up in the press.

"I haven�t seen nearly enough of CMANO�s scrupulously simulated Harpoon-style engagements to judge whether the eye-watering tariff is justified."

Uh huh. Then who are they to judge then?

Surprised they're not complaining how SBP PE charges for demos with a time limit. A $125 game by the way.

"I haven�t seen nearly enough of CMANO�s scrupulously simulated Harpoon-style engagements to judge whether the eye-watering tariff is justified (look out for an assessment next week). "

You dishonest ****. Don't deliberately misquote people. It's not a review, and it doesn't claim to judge anything. But true to form you didn't bother to read whatever it was you were responding to.

< Message edited by Alchenar -- 9/28/2013 6:45:50 AM >

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/28/2013 7:14:43 AM

RoryAndersonCDT

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You guys are taking videogames pretty seriously.

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/28/2013 11:22:52 AM

wodin

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From: England
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I correspond with Tim and our opinion on Slitherine is the same. He isn't an advocate of Slitherine and their business model. He also states as I have done that the future updates and things that have been left out to get the game out sooner should be released for free..that will then justify the cost and I'm sure then no one will have any issues about the price.

< Message edited by wodin -- 9/28/2013 11:28:56 AM >

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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/28/2013 1:33:47 PM

gradenko2k

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
But we saw several years ago that Matrix contracted, yanking all their games from any site they could. And saw sales decease, I'm sure. Aw well, what do you expect from a niche hobby?

I did speak about self-fulfilling prophecies a few days ago, didn't I?

Well that's kind of entirely the point, right? Matrix seems to think that wargaming is a niche hobby as a justification for gouging the "true believers" out of every cent, without making the connection that perhaps 80 bucks to buy a game sight unseen is probably a bad way to get newbies interested into the subject matter.

An FPS fan can jump from Duke Nukem 3D to Call of Duty to Rainbow Six to ARMA at about 10-15 USD per iteration.

A flight sim fan can go from free-to-play War Thunder to IL-2 Sturmovik to the hardcore DCS sims/Rise of Flight for about the same price range (and granting that IL-2 Sturmovik itself already covers a wide swath of the casual-to-realism spectrum)

A submarine fan only really has Silent Hunter, but that again transitions from laser-guided torps to full "plot everything by hand" for the price of a couple of coffees, and Dangerous Waters is even cheaper.

And then you get to the guy who likes to strap on riding breeches and ivory-handled pistols and pretend he's Patton for a day: He starts off with free Panzer General Forever, maybe goes up Unity of Command ... and then what? Panzer Corps is like still less than half the price of WITE/WITP even if this potential customer has gotten comfortable enough with the genre to want to go deeper into it.

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