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RE: Chaos at Leningrad

 
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RE: Chaos at Leningrad - 11/19/2013 1:19:18 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		It is the Northern line, and the farthest units are 15 or 17 hexes from the break, plus he is going hell for leather to get a real army up there. I've already seen the supply effect, its not a good situation.

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Post #: 61
RE: Chaos at Leningrad - 11/19/2013 2:20:41 AM   
hfarrish

 

Posts: 734
Joined: 1/3/2011
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Yeah, he probably viewed it as worthwhile to potentially sacrifice the SS Motorized unit in order to isolate everything. Rail repair (at least as of a few patches ago) doesn't work until December.

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Post #: 62
RE: Sapper222 Breaks Through at Leningrad! - 11/19/2013 3:18:45 AM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		Wow! You are toasted!
You seem to lacking of the knowledge of what the GHC could do with his motorize troops. Often one needs to at least play one good game as Axis before being a good soviet defender.
Your re-deployment to Bryansk was very impressive, and I thought you might be able to switch your northwest front to the threaten area on time, but you seem to have ignored the threat there.
Even so, I do enjoy reading the AAR, and I believe you could be a Pro player in this game soon, you are just too new to the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Sapper broke through in the North, used air supply to fuel the SS, and has cut the rail line to Leningrad while isolating several divisions of 33rd army. mktours thanks for the compliment but you may have spoken too soon.

He also moved the 9 divisions that were leading the frontal attack on Leningrad to the lake Ilmen area, my recon found some of them, you can see them on map. Notice Sapper punched a bunch of Red Army troops out of the way, and I have launched counter attacks here and there, when I do, I lose a lot of tanks and the Germans get a good laugh.
One bright spot in the North, three Soviet air groups have been chewing up the Finnish airforce, including the one shown above, they all have modern fighters and 70exp. Sapper has been pounding the Red Airforce, killing over 450 planes but losing 148 in return, including Gladiators sent by the British to fight the Soviets, which is proof that war is strange.

Ground casualties were light on Sapper’s turn, 56000 Soviet and 6k German.
I ran out of time before I could post a full update on T7, and now we are on T8, these are my factory moves:
T7 3 Arm from Gorlikova to Chapaevsk 2 from Kursk to Agryz, 3 from Voroshivogrod to Zuveka, 4 from Bryanks to Molotov, 4 from Rostov to Serov






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Post #: 63
RE: Sapper222 Breaks Through at Leningrad! - 11/19/2013 4:15:07 AM   
Toidi

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 8/31/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

Wow! You are toasted!



I tend to disagree... If getting 2 hexes of rail would mean that Soviets lose, the game would be too easy. Still, defending Leningrad will be tougher (or impossible if Sapper want it badly). Myself, I would just slowly move all the units out of there (a possibly overly cautious move aimed at preventing super encirclement and preserving strength; also the amount of trucks required to supply 2 fronts is significant without rail). Still, if you can keep Sapper out of the north rail for a while, it will take 2 turns to repair the rail (provided no axis unit is present within 5 hexes, I think).

Strategically, there should be no problem to keep Germans away - Axis have no strategic objectives apart of Leningrad in the north. The only reason to commit would be to make grand Leningrad encirclement - but that is very tricky without Finns staying on the border (and even with the Finns, it is still a big gamble - Soviets need to be clumsy with their reaction to make this possible). If I were Axis, I would either aim for super-encirclement or start transferring my forces south to assist in the attack on Moscow. Having a major fight north of Torzhok is just a strategic waste of the troops which may be used more efficiently in better terrain.

In my view your main objective is still not to lose too much industry, and, even more importantly now, to preserve your army. You need as many units of close to 50 morale and 100% TOE as possible in December. During blizzard you need to gain ground, you need to farm morale, you need to reduce morale of German units and possibly encircle some divisions. For all that you need some good core force - which is why you can't afford to lose units around Leningrad.


In any case, if you manage to repair the rail it will allow you to rail the industry out of Leningrad...

As for the SS division, it probably has fuel to connect to the main forces next turn (if it was mine ss division, it would certainly have enough to get some 30 mp when cut off). Easy to check by setting the soft fuel factor.

Seeing such moves, I would say it is unfortunate that game does not consider Murmansk being a supply point for the Soviets (on the other hand the game assumes that regardless of having access to the rail to Murmansk, the northern land-lease is unaffected).

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Post #: 64
RE: Sapper222 Breaks Through at Leningrad! - 11/19/2013 5:06:11 AM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		I believe that you can write off the 15 arms factories in and around Leningrad. Also, the vehicle factories remaining and the T-50 M1941 that would have eventually upgraded to T-34 factories. Not sure on the factory evacs why you scatter them all over the place. I just pile them into a couple Ural cities so I can see their repair status at a glance.

Like so...


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Post #: 65
RE: Sapper222 Breaks Through at Leningrad! - 11/19/2013 7:23:13 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		An absurd game badly distorted by an absurd opening that should be illegal. I hope this is fixed for good in WITE 2.0. None of this should be happening as is. It was supposed to have been fixed, but Sapper found a hole in the fix.

My own view is that people should flatly refuse to play under these conditions and resign on turn 2 if the Axis player insists on abusing the game engine in this fashion. Tom is being a good sport about this and putting up a good fight, but Sapper has been taking utter advantage of him. It's wrong and it sucks.


< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 11/19/2013 8:24:28 AM >

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Post #: 66
RE: Sapper222 Breaks Through at Leningrad! - 11/19/2013 2:33:28 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


Posts: 890
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From: Bozotown
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quote:

An absurd game badly distorted by an absurd opening that should be illegal.


I understand your frustration. On the other hand I did not see a single counter-attack of the Soviet player. It just doesn't work to simply run east and let the Axis player do whatever he wants.

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Post #: 67
RE: Sapper222 Breaks Through at Leningrad! - 11/19/2013 2:49:57 PM   
hfarrish

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toidi




In any case, if you manage to repair the rail it will allow you to rail the industry out of Leningrad...




As long as Sapper keeps his troops close I believe this won't happen till December. I would bug out of Leningrad asap, as long as the rail is cut he doesn't need the super encirclement, those guys will simply isolate and collapse from lack of supply.


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Post #: 68
RE: Sapper222 Breaks Through at Leningrad! - 11/19/2013 5:03:05 PM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		@mktours You are correct, I’ve been very clear that this is a first game against a human opponent. My experience is I learn much faster playing someone who is good. All that said, my unit numbers a limited by Sapper222s superb opening turn, the one Flaviusx is writing about.
My own newbishness lost me some addition units and made things a bit worse, which I was expecting. Sapper found a weak spot, one of my strategic problems at this stage is lack of troops means I have to have weak spots, and designing them properly is a big issue. I did not get this one right, so Sapper made it to the rail.
@Bozo I have launched a number of unsuccessful counter attacks, but they have all been local attacks. Sapper is very careful about making his units difficult to hit back at, if you look at the map on Post 52 you will see that when he did move adjacent to the Soviet line he stacked his hexes 3 divisions high.
One of the real effects of the huge T1 loss is a reduced ability to counter attack and a need to limit Soviet losses. That said, I am still learning how to optimize a counter attack to make it work well. You are seeing 4 things work together

1) I am not posting individual attack by the Soviets
2) I’m short of units for attack, defense and anything else
3) Sapper is a good player and does not leave me with many good opportunities to hit back
4) I’m still learning how to counter attack, and still building armies that are capable of it.

Over all I’m enjoying the game, I think Flaviusx makes some interesting points but they don’t prevent me from having fun. It ought to be pretty clear that if we restarted now Sapper would get a different game, but I see no reason to stop this one.

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Post #: 69
Soviet T8 Center - 11/19/2013 7:21:25 PM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		In the center I did some reorganizing. Both sides pushed infantry north along the front North of Voronezh. I got good odds on one of Sapper222’s infantry divisions and pushed it back, and further South Forced 7th 17th and 18th pnz to retreat with the loss of 100 AFVs, that blunts 25% of Sappers big PNZ force in the Moscow area. Then I got greedy and hit them again with 5 fresh divisions, and the burned all the MPs in a stack of two armored and a mech division. I’m being a little greedy near Bryansk and trying to hold on long enough for them to retreat, you can see them outlined in yellow at the forward edge of the Bryansk front.

Mostly I pulled back to prep a stop line for Sappers next breakthrough. There are three lines east of his main Pnz group, he may swing further South, and if he does I am pretty sure he will break the first line but not get very far into the second. I’ve also started permanently garrisoning Moscow just in case I underestimate Sapper’s ability to rush in.

I am still very concerned about my lines being thin, the PNZ corps have a tremendous punch in August. I sent a lot of stuff North to Leningrad, its possible that will unbalance Sapper222 or its possible it has unbalanced me.







Attachment (1)

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Post #: 70
Soviet T8 South - 11/19/2013 7:29:04 PM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		In the South I matched Sapper222’s inactivity and pulled further back. I don’t have very much force down here, and would really like to build up, so I withdrew to cover Rostov and to keep an army on the road between Stalino and Stalingrad. Sapper222 is 51 hexes from his rail head here, so though I expect him to advance he is way out there.

Further South in the Crimea I tried adding a lot of modern Soviet fighters, they will be fighting Romanians and my hope is they will gain kills and experience the way the three air groups near Leningrad have while fighting the Finns.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 71
RE: Soviet T8 South - 11/19/2013 10:37:30 PM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		Strategy wise I think Toidi is more or less correct. Running a big army to the Northern rail line cuts off Leningrad, but it also runs a big army way off into a swamp. If I can keep it there that could be a win for me, especially if I avoid getting encircled. Sapper222 has an opportunity, but one that could become a problem. I took some risk in the center to make it a bigger problem.
Flaviusx is also correct, the German opening can grab far more of the Red army than historical, though the Soviets can also do very a-historical things as well. I am certain I could do much better vs Sapper222 or anyone else if I started a second game. To be good at the second game you have to play the first one, so here we are.

I think Sapper222 is a good player, but I guess I am more bloody minded than Flaviusx, because I have no real problem with his opening moves. I have bigger problems with my early moves, but that is the nature of games. At least if we lose we get to do it again.

Sapper has a movement advantage locally in the Center and North, but I have a strategic movement advantage in rail movement, and I pushed a lot of stuff North to take advantage of that. It may stay there, or it may move back South, we will see.

It’s still a long way to mud season, we have more turns until mud than we have played so far. It’s possible I won’t have much of an army by then, because I have to fight Sapper222 for territory now, he advanced very quickly. We’ll see.

It’s been an interesting turn, the Russians had their first successful counter attacks, and at the end of the turn the Germans have more troops surrounded than the Russians. That’s not going to last, but it is kind of a fun fact.

The Germans have 3.33 million men, 33694 guns, 2199 tanks (-400) and 2875 planes.
German allies add 1.8 million men, 13501 guns, 573 planes and 1120 tanks
The Russians have 4.07 million men up about 57,00 from T5, 40393 guns down 1,500 from T5, 3820 which is about 2,000 less than T5 tanks and 5831 planes up almost 400.

Soviet losses are 1.9 million men, 26,000 guns and 13,600 tanks, Gemans have lost 165,00 men 1,000 guns and 1500 tanks.

T8 Moved parts of the aircraft factories and the 3 arm from Voronezh to Kirov. 4 arm from Ordzhonikidzgrad north of Bryansk to Magnitogorsk. 4 arm from Rostov to Serov, that is two moves of 4 from the same city to the same city, which the game seems to look at as creating separate factories. Moved the better model Lagg from Taganrog to Ufa.

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Post #: 72
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/19/2013 10:50:51 PM   
Callistrid

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 8/11/2011
Status: offline 		How I hate this type of start... I'd hoped one year will be enough to fix the extended Lwov opening... Brrr....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

First turn, he surrounds many Soviet troops, pretty much as usual. I reopen the southern pocket:
[image][/image]



I do not expect to get much if anything out, but I am hoping that it will take him a bit longer to reduce the pocket. I've set up skirmish lines at various places in the North and South, but don't plan to be super aggressive. All air units are on manual reinforcement. Fortification at Leningrad and Rostov has started, and a line that I expect to abandon has been formed in front of Kiev.

I tried to upload a screenshot of the South, but it does not appear to be working, any idea why?

Currently I'm thinking trade ground for time, and try to slow him down, especially with the units already in pockets.





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Post #: 73
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/19/2013 11:17:00 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Tom, it's not about bloody mindedness, it's about the integrity of this title that claims to be a historical wargamer. The opener destroys that. Furthermore, this opener had been decided to be illegal by the devs and steps were taken to prevent it.

Sapper found a hole in that and drove right through it. But sooner or later a fix is going to stick and make this illegal for good. It's not intended and destroys the balance and historicity of the design. The game isn't designed with this as a possibility and the opener indeed breaks the design. It's 100% an exploit. And Sapper knows or ought to know this. It's monumentally unfair, beyond that, to take advantage of a rookie like yourself doing this cheese.

Best wishes, but I think it would be best if everybody simply said no to this nonsense and resigned. Don't legitimate it, don't validate it, don't treat it as a test of your manhood. It's beyond the pale.

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Post #: 74
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/19/2013 11:35:21 PM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		If I'm somehow making anyone reading this think its a test of manhood I'm creating a terrible misunderstanding. Opening aside, my goal for this particular game was to learn how to play the game well, and I am learning a lot. I've been playing wargames since the 1970s, this is just a really fast way to climb the learning curve. If my defense falls apart and I lose that is ok, and if I somehow get Sapper222 under control and win (which I think is unlikely) more the better.

I did not realize the devs had declared this opening illegal. Obviously they have not done anything that stops people from playing it. I'm not expert enough at the game to feel confident making suggestions on how to fix it, but I will say that there are a lot of holes in the turn1 pockets Sapper222 is making, maybe that implies a certain type of solution. I've been playing around a bit with the Soviet turn one, and though its possible to breach the pockets it not possible to get out of them, and it looks like it would be pretty difficult to breach them a second time on T2. I looked into sneaky parachute tricks and other gamey stuff and none of that really works either.

It's a shame it takes a house rule to unbreak the game.

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Post #: 75
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 12:25:18 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		There's always a solution. I don't think your own play has been optimal and there are things I'd do differently than you if I were to play this out. (The evacuation in particular I think could have been done better. It's possible to strip the south entirely by turn 10, if you're willing to write off everything west of the Dnepr, including Dnepropetrovsk if need be.) Which I wouldn't on general principles. But just because something has a solution and a response doesn't mean it is okay.

And yeah, stuff got tweaked recently to prevent this opener but somehow Sapper found a way around it. At this point it is on the players themselves to exercise restraint and common sense rather than repeatedly seeking to break the game. The design is dated and needs an overhaul in many areas. Or you can just throw common sense out the window and cheese all of it. But if you do that, do it with another veteran cheeseball artist playing against you. But Sapper against you? Yeah, that's like strangling kittens and stealing lunch money from toddlers. Dirty pool.

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Post #: 76
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 1:00:21 AM   
bomazz

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 8/13/2012
Status: offline 		It is a game. It will never be historically accurate,If so it would be utterly boring.

I would prefer a game with a run up too the historical date. You have all of the units that started in the operation. Just you get to decide where they are placed. Make it a three turn run up. Each side may do a few boarder recon flights prior. then set up your armies prior. Let the player choose who goes where, you could limit freedom a bit by setting up staging areas where players must set up some units, reserves and what not. Would stop the Cheese, and give the soviet and Axis powers some creative options. No two games would ever be the same. Now that To me would be fun. As no two games would ever be the same you could not have cheese created by exploited starting positions.


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Post #: 77
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 2:27:27 AM   
Toidi

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 8/31/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bomazz

I would prefer a game with a run up too the historical date. You have all of the units that started in the operation. Just you get to decide where they are placed. Make it a three turn run up. Each side may do a few boarder recon flights prior. then set up your armies prior. Let the player choose who goes where, you could limit freedom a bit by setting up staging areas where players must set up some units, reserves and what not. Would stop the Cheese, and give the soviet and Axis powers some creative options. No two games would ever be the same. Now that To me would be fun. As no two games would ever be the same you could not have cheese created by exploited starting positions.




The idea seems to be excellent at first sight but there are issues.

First, the Soviets will try to minimise the possible encirclements. That means mostly putting units as far back as possible (outside the reach of infantry) and no units / as few units as possible at the border (also to minimise the effects of the first 'surprise' turn). All the planes, as far from the border as possible.

Also, Soviet players will try to minimise number of units in the south (bad defensive terrain) and maximise them in areas which are difficult to encircle. As such, in the end rules requiring placement of units would have to be currently relatively inflexible, resulting in a setup closely resembling what we have now. Otherwise, Axis will get initially a lot of land for free and meet an impenetrable defense (line of forts on river lines) later on.

I guess that is one of the challenges for future WitE 2 / War in Europe - at one hand more flexibility is needed, but on the other hand as the game should have a chance to last till '45, somehow the enormous encirclements which historically happened in '41 must be factored in. Therefore,the game needs to be balanced either around assumption of no mega encirclements in '41 or aim to enforce them in the opening turns (as that is the only time when one can realistically enforce them without setting a whole set of new rules). Without the balancing act there is not much fun left - as once Soviets can have good '41 without dramatic losses, that means they can have good '42, which in turn means winning in '43 or early '44. Could that historically be? Maybe, but from a game perspective, each side should have some chance of winning, or at least doing better than historical.


All in all, I guess the full freedom will only be available in the War in Europe - where giving ground by the Soviets can be balanced by Axis being able to squash allied forces to a greater degree than historical before the attack, attack Soviet Union earlier than end of June and tune the units setup (and possibly TOE & production) at least as much as Soviets can do now (probably more).


Also, the 'giving ground' tactics to avoid encirclements may be possibly balanced by some other game factors, like getting connection between game constants and the given/gained ground (i.e. for every city conquered, the national morale of Axis rises and national morale of Soviets decreases) instead of having constant national morale table as it is now and/or introducing some more penalties on industry evacuation (or adding a schedule of evacuating supply stockpiles in cities - getting a city earlier than given date would mean that the supplies will be transferred to the Axis player). Still, getting the balance just right is very hard - WitE after quite some time is still not perfectly balanced (though it is getting closer and closer).

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Post #: 78
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 11:02:30 AM   
Tom Hunter


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/14/2004
Status: offline 		"As no two games would ever be the same you could not have cheese created by exploited starting positions."

True, but you would get different cheese. Just looking at this game, my loss rate is tracking lower than the historical Soviet loss rate in spite of Sapper222s opening and the mistakes I've made from inexperience. Getting play balance right in a large game is very difficult.

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Post #: 79
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 11:25:43 AM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Yes but u also get far less manpower in 1941 than historical. If u were to take historical casulties u would basicly have no army left. The overall through out the war russian manpower drafted falls far below the historic numbers. Yes its off setted by, but then it has to be by taken fewer casulties.
Btw by july 1942 gain 1 mio more manpower than historic as germans. Just a word of warning as its ur first game. By end june 1942 its not uncommon and this was before the blizzard changes but i think u still play with the old rules right?
To see a german oob numbers of many times reaching 3.6-3.8m germans alone. This ofc impacts the 1942 campaign inpartiuclar when done by an opponent that knows how to use that extra men.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 11/20/2013 12:30:18 PM >

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Post #: 80
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 1:15:52 PM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		I think you are misled by someone. If the developer declared anything illegal, you could easily trace them out, but there is not.
Saper is a very good player, to get the chance to play with him as a new player is a privilege. It might be better to ignore some attacks at the character of your opponent when he is not supposed to read this AAR and hence could not defend himself. Some people hate him, but that is a distraction of a AAR and your game.
What Saper did in T1 is very common, what Saper did in T2 is not difficult to figure out by anyone who is a good player, there is nothing illegal in it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

If I'm somehow making anyone reading this think its a test of manhood I'm creating a terrible misunderstanding. Opening aside, my goal for this particular game was to learn how to play the game well, and I am learning a lot. I've been playing wargames since the 1970s, this is just a really fast way to climb the learning curve. If my defense falls apart and I lose that is ok, and if I somehow get Sapper222 under control and win (which I think is unlikely) more the better.

I did not realize the devs had declared this opening illegal. Obviously they have not done anything that stops people from playing it. I'm not expert enough at the game to feel confident making suggestions on how to fix it, but I will say that there are a lot of holes in the turn1 pockets Sapper222 is making, maybe that implies a certain type of solution. I've been playing around a bit with the Soviet turn one, and though its possible to breach the pockets it not possible to get out of them, and it looks like it would be pretty difficult to breach them a second time on T2. I looked into sneaky parachute tricks and other gamey stuff and none of that really works either.

It's a shame it takes a house rule to unbreak the game.

(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 81
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 1:37:53 PM   
SigUp

 

Posts: 1062
Joined: 11/29/2012
Status: offline 		You are mistaken mktours. The super Lvov, whereby you encircle everything west of Zhitomir was declared unwanted by the developers. Why else do you think were the Rumanians move away from the border? This opener by sapper under the rules since the .09 patch is not common. At least there is no AAR in which this was done.

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Post #: 82
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 1:48:43 PM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		please cite the declare document to me, I didn't see any document that declaring something "illegal" by the developer.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

You are mistaken mktours. The super Lvov, whereby you encircle everything west of Zhitomir was declared unwanted by the developers. Why else do you think were the Rumanians move away from the border? This opener by sapper under the rules since the .09 patch is not common. At least there is no AAR in which this was done.


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Post #: 83
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 1:52:16 PM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		Sigup, this T1 is common.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

First turn, he surrounds many Soviet troops, pretty much as usual. I reopen the southern pocket:
[image][/image]



I do not expect to get much if anything out, but I am hoping that it will take him a bit longer to reduce the pocket. I've set up skirmish lines at various places in the North and South, but don't plan to be super aggressive. All air units are on manual reinforcement. Fortification at Leningrad and Rostov has started, and a line that I expect to abandon has been formed in front of Kiev.

I tried to upload a screenshot of the South, but it does not appear to be working, any idea why?

Currently I'm thinking trade ground for time, and try to slow him down, especially with the units already in pockets.





(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 84
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 1:55:50 PM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		Sigup, this T2 is uncommon, but any good player would easily figure out how it worked and there is nothing illegal in it. If a good SHC aware of this beforehand, it could escape and it could even benefit from it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

In the South I failed to locate his armor in Hungary, and underestimated how fast he could move with the Northern part of his force. This lead me to put my rear area stop lines too far forward, and he surrounded more troops. This turn I was unable to break his line, which is going to cause me trouble as I it may be stronger next turn. I’m also concerned that he might have enough fuel to do another envelopment, but I feel its worth the risk to move troops up and possibly resupply the pocket in T3.

I moved Bryansk front and other troops North towards Tula and Moscow, further weakening the South. I am gambling that the North will be the critical front in 1941.

Over all I am happy with the North where any mistakes I made T2 were small, but concerned about the South.








< Message edited by mktours -- 11/20/2013 3:00:33 PM >

(in reply to Tom Hunter)
Post #: 85
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 3:13:21 PM   
SigUp

 

Posts: 1062
Joined: 11/29/2012
Status: offline 		I did not say it was illegal, I said it was unwanted. It goes in the same direction, but there is a little difference between that. And you want a statement, here's one by Joel:

quote:

2. In all campaigns and scenarios starting June 22, 1941, moved 2 Rumanian units back from the border near Chernovtsy. This allows Soviet units to use the rail next to the border on turn 2 if it is not cut by German units from the north. This was done to reduce the effectiveness of the German Super Lvov Pocket strategy. Also reduced the fort level of Hanko to 3.


You say that opening is quite common, well it was quite common before 1.07.09. But I have yet to see another post 1.07.09 AAR in which this opening was done.

(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 86
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 3:17:44 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		It's illegal and it will be nerfed in due course. Bank on this. Sapper just found a different way to accomplish what the original fix was intended to address.

Here's the bottom line: if you're wiping out the whole of SW and South Fronts in a couple of turns you are well into cheese territory; this is pretty self evident and a matter of common sense.

This is only possible by exploiting the surprise turn mechanics and the staggered activation of South Front. Let's not kid ourselves about this.

They key here, as far as I can tell, is the way he slipped armor through Hungary by rail on turn 1.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 11/20/2013 4:21:56 PM >

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(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 87
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 3:36:16 PM   
SigUp

 

Posts: 1062
Joined: 11/29/2012
Status: offline 		It is not possible to rail units into Hungary on turn 1. For the first two turns Hungary is off limits for German units.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 88
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 4:12:57 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


Posts: 890
Joined: 6/25/2013
From: Bozotown
Status: offline 		I don't see any armor going through Hungry. If you look at the screenshot of turn 1 you see that Sapper has parked one armor division together with the HQ near the Romanian border. That armor division gets encircled but because it's together with the HQ it gets maximum fuel the next turn. Correct me if I'm wrong.

< Message edited by Bozo_the_Clown -- 11/20/2013 5:36:28 PM >

(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 89
RE: Sapper 22 Invades his Homeland - 11/20/2013 4:17:01 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Hmm, no I think you are correct Bozo. Nevertheless, it's mind boggling that virtually the entire SW Front got surrounded on turn 2.

Even cutting off spearheads won't do anything here if they are parked on an HQ. This is really quite as bad as the original extended Lvov as it accomplishes the same end result.

I'm at the point of throwing up my hands here and waiting for WITE 2.0. This is broken beyond belief.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 11/20/2013 5:27:35 PM >

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(in reply to Bozo_the_Clown)
Post #: 90
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