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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: Unorthodox

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 1:10:22 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

My basic thought on using Land based air to defend here in the Kuriles/Hokkaido is to use multiple airbases, with each airbase launching one bombing squadron (or torpedo attack) escorted by 2 sentais of fighters. The attacks from multiple airbases will be at variable altitudes.

Rinse and repeat.

However I am also mulling one Sentai of 45 Betties escorted with as many Oscars as I possible can for the first attack? Or should I save that for a later attack once Allied air is a little more tired, and somewhat reduced. This way I can save the Betties for later, and put them all on night attacks and hope to get lucky (or at least degrade ammunition stocks).

Ahh, decisions.

I will throw the entire Japanese Land base air armada against him, leaving only some fighters in Indochina and short legged divebombers there.

I am going to hold nothing back, everything is expendable.

Any ideas on using land based air against him.

The air model is on the side of the big squadrons. When you're going up against Allied CV air power, don't bother unless you can amass 200 + bombers. Anything less and you won't do enough damage to make your losses worthwhile.

Mass your biggest squadrons (the size 40+ fighter and bomber units) at one or two of the biggest airbases. You want to stack the odds in your favour, so doing this will ensure that if you get lucky enough on the co-ordination rolls, you'll get a strike with a good mix of fighters and bombers.

As for the smaller squadrons, disperse them around as you intend just to deplete his CAP.

Sadly there isn't really any way to reliably ensure big co-ordinated land-based strikes against CV air power - they do tend to get sent out in penny-packets to die against CV CAP. The only thing you can do is hope that one strike has enough fighters and bombers to get through the CAP of Doom and inflict enough damage to make your losses worthwhile.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 4471

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 1:19:40 PM

setloz

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I always thought that following the changes in aircraft coordination checks, LBA against Allied CV deathstar is a doomed affair. The only use would be to fatigue and deplete allied CV units in order to soften them up for a KB strike.

Imho if Hokkaido falls then the entire IJ economy is gone as well as the reason for KB to exist. So this could be one of the now or never moments.

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 4472

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 1:43:02 PM

Lowpe

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There has to be a way!

1. Ok, I set up a cap trap over surface ships.

2. I can send out suicide ships to make runs at the approaching invasion fleet hopefully to slow him down.

3. I will mass every plane at my disposal against him.

4. MTBs, Midgets will be used.

5. Say goodbye to the Japanese Navy, as they will all make runs against him.

The question is: is it better to start attacking now, or wait for a maximum push in say 2 days? I expect he lands in three days.

My feeling is to send out some ships now to attempt to start wearing down his escorts, etc. Certainly a CAP Trap might work now.

Could this be an elaborate ploy to simply destroy Japan's Navy and Air Force? I have yet to spot invasion shipping. Spotting really stinks...limit 10 ships. No choice but to assume it is an invasion, Unfortunately.

(in reply to setloz)

Post #: 4473

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 2:25:56 PM

JocMeister

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What MM said. Be prepared to loose a couple of thousand planes. With some luck you might get some hits in return. Try to add in all the CVs. With a small sacrifice to the gaming gods the CV strike will come in late when his CAP is whittled down by LBA.

Don�t send in stuff in pieces. Everything at once.

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Post #: 4474

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 3:07:18 PM

Lowpe

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Ok, let us think things thru. Level 9 air base lets me stack unlimited planes, so the strikes need to come from here to have a chance of penetrating deathstar cap?

Perfectly willing to sacrifice everything.

I need to hit before he lands. Combined with everything. Ships and Planes.

I can't reinforce everything. But I do have a fairly significant air lift capability.

The problem is where will he land?

If he lands on the islands to the east, further away from the HI and my twin level 9 airbases of Ominato and Hachinoe...then he will pretty much take them. Currently naval guard and base force, forts level 3. Airfields somewhat built up. I can bring back troops from Paramushiro and further north (which I guess I have just written off).

If he lands closer to Hokkaido, Etorofu and closer I have a chance. Small chance, but at least there are more troops here and he is very close to the level 9 airfields.

If he lands on Kushiro I will have 700AV plus two tank regiments.

However, he probably is aiming at at least 2 invasion spots.

So, let us assume he gets an island. Then what, Game pretty much over? Nah! Kamikaze's are active, so it makes sense to start stuffing some Helen squadrons with Kamikazes now in anticipation. I can switch one squadron per day. Or I can switch the Myojo squadrons. I think I will start with the Helen first, My Myojo numbers are limited. But anyhow, I need to think ahead and start stuffing in the LowN pilots now.

To get thru cap I need 200+ kamikazes -- about 7 Helen squadrons. One week after the first base is taken. Ugh.

This turn seems fairly straight forward: move all planes back, prepare for a huge attack in 2 days. Set all torpedo planes to night naval attack and some search. If I can put a fish into a carrier that would be nice. I have 400 Betties available, 60 Emilies. Tomorrow when he gets closer I can add in the Jills.

Air transport what I can where I can.

All spare units in Japan to go east. Ominato needs be absolutely stuffed with aviation support. Stockpile humongous amounts of torpedoes.

Check supply levels and adjust accordingly for MTBs, Midgets, air replacements, torpedoes, etc. Last minute minefields.

Iboats to harass. A cap trap over some ships in the hopes of luring out a strike group. Lots, and lots of search, especially night. I will have to eat the daytime losses.

Well, lets see what I can do.

(in reply to JocMeister)

Post #: 4475

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 3:40:46 PM

setloz

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quote:

A cap trap over some ships in the hopes of luring out a strike group.

You could set-up several large xAK TFs in places with heavy CAP to draw him out. I think the strike AI has some sort of checks for the importance of the ships and the size strike package. So, if you set a small TF you get a small strike package. If you have solid cap, go big. :)

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 3:41:19 PM

Lokasenna

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DL 2/3 is more likely SIGINT because you had a lot of radio traffic there this turn. If he got even one camera-equipped plane over the base it would be at least DL 4... by my reading of the way recon/cameras work, anyway.

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Post #: 4477

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 3:46:31 PM

mind_messing

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I'll play devil's advocate.

With no invasion shipping confirmed, what's not to say this isn't a massive ploy to lure out your air and naval power?

From the screens you've posted, it looks to me like a CV force, a replenishment force, plus some SCTF's. Enough that you should worry, not enough to make me think it's a serious invasion attempt.

It may be the advanced guard of the invasion force, but if that was the case, where is the invasion force?

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Post #: 4478

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 4:20:11 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

DL 2/3 is more likely SIGINT because you had a lot of radio traffic there this turn. If he got even one camera-equipped plane over the base it would be at least DL 4... by my reading of the way recon/cameras work, anyway.

Hey, that is genuinely helpful.

I am about to search thru the op reports to see if I spotted any planes.

Do you think 2,000 planes at Ominato might scare him off?

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/18/2015 5:29:25 PM >

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Post #: 4479

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 4:25:25 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'll play devil's advocate.

With no invasion shipping confirmed, what's not to say this isn't a massive ploy to lure out your air and naval power?

From the screens you've posted, it looks to me like a CV force, a replenishment force, plus some SCTF's. Enough that you should worry, not enough to make me think it's a serious invasion attempt.

It may be the advanced guard of the invasion force, but if that was the case, where is the invasion force?

I have seen other large task force invasions (different AARs), and there was never a hint of amphibious ships until the landing occurred.

I have to assume it is an invasion. Even if it isn't, it will allow me to build up an area that needs building anyhow.

6 hexes a turn for a huge invasion, with tons of supply, just seems hard to take. But I can't assume it isn't an invasion.

If it is a ploy, say to invade in the SRA or Port Moresby, etc, it has worked, But, since I have really given up all those areas already, no harm as long as I don't do something really, really stupid.

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Post #: 4480

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 4:28:54 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: setloz

quote:

A cap trap over some ships in the hopes of luring out a strike group.

You could set-up several large xAK TFs in places with heavy CAP to draw him out. I think the strike AI has some sort of checks for the importance of the ships and the size strike package. So, if you set a small TF you get a small strike package. If you have solid cap, go big. :)

Ok, I am a gamer, but I simply can't put xaks into this use. Has to be surface ships, say a squadron of destroyers, etc...

I am not looking for a homerun, a double maybe.

This ultimately was my plan for the Hyuga with all her 3000 flak points. Simply to setup underneath a huge cap. If you could down 200 planes she is not a total loss victory point wise. Gosh, how gamey is that?

(in reply to setloz)

Post #: 4481

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 4:29:51 PM

Lowpe

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This is just a horrible turn clickwise.

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Post #: 4482

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 4:40:34 PM

setloz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: setloz

quote:

A cap trap over some ships in the hopes of luring out a strike group.

You could set-up several large xAK TFs in places with heavy CAP to draw him out. I think the strike AI has some sort of checks for the importance of the ships and the size strike package. So, if you set a small TF you get a small strike package. If you have solid cap, go big. :)

Ok, I am a gamer, but I simply can't put xaks into this use. Has to be surface ships, say a squadron of destroyers, etc...

I am not looking for a homerun, a double maybe. This ultimately was my plan for the Hyuga with all her 3000 flak points. Simply to setup underneath a huge cap. If you could down 200 planes she is not a total loss victory point wise. Gosh, how gamey is that?

Hyuga and a host of destroyers with the latest AA upgrades works as well.
My point was just that the more important the ships the bigger the strike package to accomodate...errr...slaughter. :)

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 4483

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 5:07:54 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'll play devil's advocate.

With no invasion shipping confirmed, what's not to say this isn't a massive ploy to lure out your air and naval power?

From the screens you've posted, it looks to me like a CV force, a replenishment force, plus some SCTF's. Enough that you should worry, not enough to make me think it's a serious invasion attempt.

It may be the advanced guard of the invasion force, but if that was the case, where is the invasion force?

I have seen other large task force invasions (different AARs), and there was never a hint of amphibious ships until the landing occurred.

I have to assume it is an invasion. Even if it isn't, it will allow me to build up an area that needs building anyhow.

6 hexes a turn for a huge invasion, with tons of supply, just seems hard to take. But I can't assume it isn't an invasion.

If it is a ploy, say to invade in the SRA or Port Moresby, etc, it has worked, But, since I have really given up all those areas already, no harm as long as I don't do something really, really stupid.

6 hexes per turn isn't at all impossible for an invasion... it just means he's not likely to have LSTs maintaining that pace. Although be aware that you CAN run LSTs for 6 hexes/turn on full speed if you want to guarantee they go the 6...

How many big amphibs have you sunk? Those go 4/3 hexes on mission/cruise... I'm not saying that it is a huge invasion fleet, because who knows, just don't discount it as impossible to be an invasion simply because it's going 6 hexes a turn and that's "too fast" - it's not.

(in reply to Lowpe)

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 5:17:05 PM

witpqs

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I regard 6 hexes as normal for a USN invasion convoy if none of the slow ships are included. Refueling of escorts matters too, but that is occasional unless really short legged ones are included.

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Post #: 4485

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 6:13:26 PM

Lowpe

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Come on guys, looking for a silver lining here!

I really don't want an invasion in Hokkaido right now.

The turn is away, took some risks, and pretty much did everything I wrote about here, except start setting up Kamikaze squads for the Helens. I will start that next turn. Just too many clicks.

Some interesting notes, the Rexes are on the Hyuga and flying so everything there seems ok.

Next turn, if the fleets continue to close on Hokkaido/Kuriles will get the first naval attacks. Big daytime air attack in two days with everything I have and then some. And then I guess I simply won't stop from there on out.

I am hoping I can pick something off during the night. Moonlight is pretty good (90%) and I have a lot of planes on night naval attack.

It is pretty bold to invade here, now. But really, how much will it really set him back if he fails terribly?

This is an eye opener, and no mistake!

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 4486

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 6:37:31 PM

Lowpe

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One move I made today, sensing this in fact might presage the end, and I have tons of supply, is to further increase my plane manufacturing. I added even more George, Jacks, Myojo, Jills to the production line. All single engine, all will be used.

Tomorrow I will look at shutting down all merchant ship builds, and building more planes. Giving serious thoughts to Kamikazes.

I know I mentioned that I would never build Frances, but the outcry for the plane was so great I built one factory of them. I am about ready to switch over one squadron to them, perhaps for use as a Kamikaze. Fast hard hitting plane? Might work.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/18/2015 7:55:18 PM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 6:47:23 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Come on guys, looking for a silver lining here!

Well, it would be a target rich environment for both sides!

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Post #: 4488

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 7:19:16 PM

Lowpe

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Lest you think I am neglecting the rest of the world, here is a picture of the poor Yukikaze. She was stricken by an enemy sub about a week ago and barely made port (a level 0 port). Emergency ships were dispatched, and all the counter flooding has been pumped out, and now she will try for Georgetown.

She was nailed north of Georgetown.

I even went so far as to fly in some naval support from Singers to help with this stricken ship.

A great big success so far!

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Post #: 4489

RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 7:20:48 PM

Lowpe

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Enough good news, here is some dismal news. No full divisions are slated to come in and help me. In fact a lot will go to China, a back water now!

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 7:23:14 PM

Lowpe

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And finally, the situation at Hokkaido.

Poor, lonely, Yubari. She probably will get nailed by subs tonight. If not tonight, then she might get destroyed by air raids from the Deathstar.

If she makes it 24 hours, then a suicide run on the Allied fleet is in order. But, she will have company for that run.

Sometimes, you just get the short end of the stick.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 9:21:06 PM

Encircled

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May you find the Death Stars exhaust port!

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 9:23:37 PM

Lowpe

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Now, only to find that one pilot that put a long lance down it!

On the positive side, I have time to beef up the Bonins, and finish off to level 6 forts.

Given more time I will work on Hokkaido and the lower Kuriles.

Not given anymore time I will fight with the forces available.

There is only one outcome. Glory.

(in reply to Encircled)

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/18/2015 10:55:32 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: setloz

quote:

A cap trap over some ships in the hopes of luring out a strike group.

You could set-up several large xAK TFs in places with heavy CAP to draw him out. I think the strike AI has some sort of checks for the importance of the ships and the size strike package. So, if you set a small TF you get a small strike package. If you have solid cap, go big. :)

Ok, I am a gamer, but I simply can't put xaks into this use. Has to be surface ships, say a squadron of destroyers, etc...

I am not looking for a homerun, a double maybe. This ultimately was my plan for the Hyuga with all her 3000 flak points. Simply to setup underneath a huge cap. If you could down 200 planes she is not a total loss victory point wise. Gosh, how gamey is that?

Not gamey at all if you use valuable assets. Your normal ships should also be at every base though, like patrols, ASW (especially since he's sending subs in to them), and other small ships with guns. I'd think having a plethora of targets available, all under CAP, is your best bet.

He is attacking the homeland here. Do what you have to do. Definitely use kamis!!! Especially the Frances! Very low, too.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/19/2015 7:15:20 AM

CaptBeefheart

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Great time to catch up on this AAR!

And all of this beer talk has made me hanker for my favorite WITP-AE sub-related beer.

Cheers,
CC

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< Message edited by Commander Cody -- 5/19/2015 8:19:47 AM >

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Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/19/2015 10:23:34 AM

Lowpe

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Jan 16, 1943

The heavy moonlight guides the subs, in endless attacks. Japanese Iboats and Rboats get spotted by the Allied Deathstar and destroyers race to engage, while Allied subs are more successful.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/19/2015 10:27:07 AM

Lowpe

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The Betties, Nells and Emilies, stand down, but with dawn come the Allied planes over the Home Islands.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/19/2015 10:30:51 AM

Lowpe

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Big CAP.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/19/2015 10:59:20 AM

Lowpe

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The Deathstar strikes at shipping around the Ominato area, after sweeping and bombing Ominato. We lose a dozen or so xaks that hadn't finished unloading, and his Corsair sweeps are hard on what is here right now mostly second line fighters.

Georges and Jacks only in numbers at Kushiro where they well.

Plan losses for the day are less than 2-1 in the Allies flavor, but not close to 1-1.

Time to get busy...