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RE: Unorthodox - 6/25/2015 2:35:06 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The Allies are currently running very small 2 ship task forces into Ominato, usually a minesweeper and or some type of escort, however no minesweeping seems to be occurring.

The CD guns aren't firing, and they normally fire when a TF attempts to sweep a minefield.

I guess this is an experimentation of techniques for removing minefields when protected by CD guns.

I have given up on sweeping minefields at enemy held bases, except by accident. All invasion TF get good mine sweeper support, and the fields which remain get swept after the base is taken. Why?

Because almost every time the mine sweepers get mauled to the point of all sunk.

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Post #: 5221

RE: Unorthodox - 6/25/2015 2:42:10 PM

witpqs

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Yes, knew it on you reading the AAR. Thanks for the reminder!

4E were used on ground troops IRL in WWII, but the AE system dictates more of that. It's just a point where the 'simulation' as a whole departs from reality the way that any analogy is imperfect. In the Japanese Home Islands for sure the industry is a better target, but we are still dealing with areas where the ground game is very much active. Air strikes on defending troops make a difference in the battle, but one great strategic difference is in the shape the attackers are in when the battle is over. Without that multiplier the Allies simply would not have enough time to advance!

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Post #: 5222

RE: Unorthodox - 6/25/2015 3:17:29 PM

Lowpe

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I am getting to the point where I don't really need to ship much raw resources into Honshu to make it to 1945.

That potentially frees up a lot of E ships, which I will look at making into squadrons that will contest the invasion of Honshu.

Also looking for good bases to hide the xaks as they retire from the war. Hide is perhaps the wrong word, shelter would be better.

I am retiring all MTBs to the pools, to be spawned when the invasion comes.

Yesterday the American subs nailed an xak with some AA on it of the coast of China, will probably sink today. An Iboat sank a frigate. I have several big convoys of troops spread along the coast of China, all troops returning from either Luzon or Indochina.

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Post #: 5223

RE: Unorthodox - 6/25/2015 3:42:21 PM

Lokasenna

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I'm going to say it again about bombing of troops in move mode: use Reserve mode. I do. You should too. There is almost never a reason not to use it when moving units that have a good chance of being bombed.

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Post #: 5224

RE: Unorthodox - 6/25/2015 8:39:46 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Pleased that you keep on pointing out how well your layered CAP/low level Cap does against his stratospheric Jug sweeps.

For years posters keep on saying one must only sweep at the highest possible altitude level and that the only appropriate response is to follow suit in an ever escalating upward spiral.� Whereas LoBaron and myself have equally but invariably not been listened to, stated that layered CAP is the answer.� Defenders see the sweepers getting the initial dive and want one for themselves too hence why they agitate for getting above the sweepers ab�initio, always forgetting that sweepers when they dive are then in turn vulnerable to a dive from the defenders.

Just looking at the latest Jug sweep you are obtaining two very tangible benefits.

1.� You are whittling away the Jugs.� Their total production run is not big enough to sustain an extended attrition campaign of several months.
2.� A 1:2 exchange rate means that the enemy is not really gaining ground for an auto victory level.� When you take into account other air combat results where the beasties with their double VP loss rate, the overall real exchange rate would be less than 1:2.

Alfred

Can we get an idiots guide to layering CAP if you could be so kind? I've not had much luck with it in my game.

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Post #: 5225

RE: Unorthodox - 6/26/2015 12:13:42 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Pleased that you keep on pointing out how well your layered CAP/low level Cap does against his stratospheric Jug sweeps.

For years posters keep on saying one must only sweep at the highest possible altitude level and that the only appropriate response is to follow suit in an ever escalating upward spiral.� Whereas LoBaron and myself have equally but invariably not been listened to, stated that layered CAP is the answer.� Defenders see the sweepers getting the initial dive and want one for themselves too hence why they agitate for getting above the sweepers ab�initio, always forgetting that sweepers when they dive are then in turn vulnerable to a dive from the defenders.

Just looking at the latest Jug sweep you are obtaining two very tangible benefits.

1.� You are whittling away the Jugs.� Their total production run is not big enough to sustain an extended attrition campaign of several months.
2.� A 1:2 exchange rate means that the enemy is not really gaining ground for an auto victory level.� When you take into account other air combat results where the beasties with their double VP loss rate, the overall real exchange rate would be less than 1:2.

Alfred

Can we get an idiots guide to layering CAP if you could be so kind? I've not had much luck with it in my game.

Treat this as an interim response.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3244889&mpage=1&key=layering�

Although that thread dealt with training flights getting caught up in CAP operations I do cover much ground, including layering. Non idiots will derive benefit from reading it. In the meantime I'll search for a different thread which I know exists where I deal more specifically with the factors to take into account in layering. Also don't overlook LoBaron's and PaxMondo's comments in many threads on this subject.

Alfred

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 5226

RE: Unorthodox - 6/26/2015 12:26:01 AM

Lowpe

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March 1, 1944

No night bombing.

Big expansion of the IJAAF fighter groups from 42 planes to 49. A good day, lots of clicks filling up squadrons, adding pilots.

A meh day. Well, I guess any day the Japanese industry doesn't get trashed is a good day. My cargo ship sinks that was hit by a sub from yesterday, the PB escort picks up the swimmers. Moving another Base Force, Brigade and others onto Honshu...I keep building strength for the Honshu invasion, but I am still shipping out supplies to Bonins, developing Luzon, and Okinawa, and the other Japanese Islands.

Going to hit the Allied air/naval bases on Hokkaido. One base has 0 fighters and 108 bombers, the other is down to 40 fighters. Sweeps and coordinated strikes going in against his ships (divebombers versus destroyer I think), port (9 ships in port all AR), and runways with 130 more planes.

This will be Sapporo and its neighbor.

Still holding in Thailand as the Allies reorganize their attacks. Moving to totally isolate an Allied unit north of Rahaeng, and then look to cut the road.

I have 5 divisions rebuilding their strength, some on the Moulmein/Bangkok road, some at Bangkok and others at Singers. Allies still bombing relentlessly.

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Post #: 5227

RE: Unorthodox - 6/26/2015 12:41:41 AM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3244889&mpage=1&key=layering�

Although that thread dealt with training flights getting caught up in CAP operations I do cover much ground, including layering. Non idiots will derive benefit from reading it. In the meantime I'll search for a different thread which I know exists where I deal more specifically with the factors to take into account in layering. Also don't overlook LoBaron's and PaxMondo's comments in many threads on this subject.

Alfred

That is a good thread. I liked the part about layering your sweeps. This turn I am sweeping at the lowest strike altitude over Sapporo, I believe 10K. I am hoping a full sentai of Franks down low will arrive at once and overpower the enemy CAP. The allies have reduced their fighter presence to 40 or so planes and dozen are night fighters. Or at least should be.

I am willing to sacrifice a few Franks, to wear out the enemy CAP and let my follow on bombers perform better.

At least that is the idea.

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Post #: 5228

RE: Unorthodox - 6/26/2015 1:09:03 AM

Alfred

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mind_messing and lowpe,

This is the thread I alluded to before re layering.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3623378&mpage=1&key=delta&#3625592

Various posts in it discuss the factors to take into account when setting up layered CAP. Not really possible to set down in concrete the altitudes to be adopted because it depends on (a) what your opponent is doing, and (b) exactly what you are trying to accomplish. But I think the relevant factors and how they should be taken into account, are presented to your satisfaction. I still have to sort out for posting the graphical issues in my finished river crossing 101 guide before I would consider making a 101 guide on this subject. Other topics have a greater claim on my time. Besides LoBaron has posted on the subject even more than I have.

Alfred

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 5229

RE: Unorthodox - 6/26/2015 12:04:03 PM

Lowpe

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March 2, 1944

A little night bombing from the Allies over Yokohama. No damage. Every day that goes by the Yokohama gets one more of the best 12.7cm AA guns.

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/26/2015 12:10:10 PM

Lowpe

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My attack on Sapporo is pretty poor. My Frank sweep, low, gets absolutely chewed up and it goes last. I managed to get 17 Myojo divebombers thru the 100 plane CAP and they miss on their runs against a Fast Battleship. It seems quite normal for 2 out of a stick of 4 to be destroyed by AA prior to making their bomb runs.

Does defense skill play a role at avoiding Flak? I seem to remember it was only for A2A. All the pilots were 70 skill in NavB.

My bombers fly in and get shredded so no runway or port damage.

Next door we do a lot better -- no fighter cover and we plaster the airfield. Unfortunately, the 100 Allied bombers were away bombing Akita, but we do destroy some repairing planes and nail the supplies, runway etc very satisfactorily. Now, at least the Allies will be forced to fly CAP here as well.

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Post #: 5231

RE: Unorthodox - 6/26/2015 12:15:05 PM

Lowpe

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The best happens against Allied Sweeps.

Once again, the Allies sweep a lighter defended base. Corsairs II come first, followed by two 2 Jugs sweeps.

Allies loose 10 Corsairs II and 10 Jugs. Japan loses 10 Oscars and 16 Georges as best I can figure. Which is just a great result. Take that Jugs!

Allies are now getting a new model of the Jugs with slightly longer range.

Hey, but I am getting the Judy D4Y4 - 60 mph faster than a Myojo.

Honshu economy survives another day.

The Oscars are at 6k.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/26/2015 1:20:38 PM >

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Post #: 5232

RE: Unorthodox - 6/26/2015 3:11:38 PM

Lowpe

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Cranked out another turn.

Landed two divisions plus at Shanghai today. Another is at Amoy and awaiting a trip to Shanghai. From Shanghai to Fusan, and Fusan to Honshu. Avoids about 50 American subs, who keep exchanging shots with Es and SC and dodging my ASW flights.

Going to try for a very small, 10 planes or so, kamikaze strike on a DD and a AM. Excellently trained pilots, good risk reward ratio I think but with light planes (Zeroes). I would have used divebombers, but I am afraid the radar warning would pull in too many enemy fighters, instead trying something just a little different and I will be curious to see what happens. I put a squadron of Jacks on CAP at 5K in their hex, rather than risk an escort.

Allies have sent two 7-10 Fletcher forces north of Honshu. In the past this has been a CAP trap with lightnings, but he could attempt a full speed run into Fusan in which case he would have to fight thru 20 CL/DD first. After thinking about it, I put a squadron of Myojo with a hefty escort on naval strike.

Got 9 D4Y4s last turn, and should get 250 a month from now on. Wonderful plane.

Forts are building at all clear likely invasion spots on Honshu. Have turned off most fort building everywhere else, except Okinawa, Daito and in that area.

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Post #: 5233

RE: Unorthodox - 6/26/2015 10:12:36 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm going to say it again about bombing of troops in move mode: use Reserve mode. I do. You should too. There is almost never a reason not to use it when moving units that have a good chance of being bombed.

This is a "gamey" use of a bugged engine mechanism. It won't ever be fixed because too many players like to exploit it.

Alfred

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Post #: 5234

RE: Unorthodox - 6/26/2015 11:04:51 PM

Lowpe

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March 3, 1944

No night bombing.

Honshu survives another day without any bombing. Getting a little nervous that another invasion is coming.

My Zeke Kamikaze fly right in, at 100 feet, no interception (there were some Jacks flying a cooperative CAP) and they plow into two Allied AMs at Ominato. They weren't sweeping, because my mines were staying constant.

Not a great trade Victory Point wise, but it does feel good to actually sink something with Kamikazes.

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Post #: 5235

RE: Unorthodox - 6/26/2015 11:10:12 PM

Lowpe

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Oscars muscled a Sentai of Myojo past the Lightning LRCAP over a half dozen Fletchers, but the Myojos all miss. Four lost to Flak. Fletchers are just darn tough ships.

More sweeps over Honshu. This time four sweeps: Corsair, Jugs, Jugs, Jugs.

It actually seems to me that the Corsair sweeps are slightly more effective than the Jugs sweeps, but hey, what do I know. He did drop one of the Jugs sweeps down to 36K.

You can see the Fletcher forces hanging out to the North of Honshu. Hm., what to do?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/27/2015 12:16:39 AM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/26/2015 11:15:01 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm going to say it again about bombing of troops in move mode: use Reserve mode. I do. You should too. There is almost never a reason not to use it when moving units that have a good chance of being bombed.

This is a "gamey" use of a bugged engine mechanism. It won't ever be fixed because too many players like to exploit it.

Alfred

Aha, Lok! You gamey player.

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Post #: 5237

RE: Unorthodox - 6/26/2015 11:31:41 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm going to say it again about bombing of troops in move mode: use Reserve mode. I do. You should too. There is almost never a reason not to use it when moving units that have a good chance of being bombed.

This is a "gamey" use of a bugged engine mechanism. It won't ever be fixed because too many players like to exploit it.

Alfred

Aha, Lok! You gamey player.

Shrug. It's part of the game, for good or bad. Unless you and your opponent have agreed not to use it, you should use it.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 5238

RE: Unorthodox - 6/27/2015 3:35:55 AM

Lowpe

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That March 1 expansion of the squadron size for IJAAF fighters is just simply great. Now I have size 49 squadrons coming out of my ears, but it does put a dent into your pools! Especially hard are three squadrons in Manchuko that go from 16 to 49! Good thing I crank out a ton of fighters, but I am still using some obsolete frames in the rear areas.

I have an incredible thirst for fighters!

Next big thing to worry about is a huge Navy withdraw in July. Really ugly. I hope I make it to July.

I am looking at using my super climbers (Jack, Tojo IIc) really down low at the bigger bases. I think they might avoid the sweeps and still be able to climb to fight bombers. I need to analyze some recent fights to estimate how much time is needed for them to climb to bomber height. I am no afraid of putting them all the way down at 1K. Learning how to fight the heavy, heavy all out raids is very important at saving Osaka and Tokyo.

I rotated the shot up CAP from Nagaoka back to Tokyo, where they can rebuild morale, but also act as an inhibitor to raids. I put Jacks and Tonies at Nagaoka this day.

I am shipping AA to protect bases in Manchuko now, anticipating the arrival of the B29. Port Arthur, Harbin, Keijo, Mudken, etc all need protection. I believe I have about 8 more AA on boats headed back to Shanghai currently, and then I will be reliant upon reinforcements which arrive very shortly.

I also get two more Irving NF squadrons very shortly. I think I have managed to frustrate the Allied night bombing pretty well so far, but with the arrival of the B29 getting close, it opens up so many more locations to hit plus huge payloads. It will be ugly!

The three islands north of Honshu are finally getting troops in addition to their engineers. Not a lot, but hopefully enough to prevent easy pickings.

Yesterday a Yank sub ran into three mines at Torishima! Pretty nice.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/27/2015 4:37:18 AM >

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Post #: 5239

RE: Unorthodox - 6/27/2015 5:57:25 AM

JocMeister

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Your opponent could be running low on 4Es. Or at least have realized his losses are way above his replacement rate. In my game vs. Erik I had to do the same thing. No 4E combat for something like 6 month just to be able to fill out all the squadrons!

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Post #: 5240

RE: Unorthodox - 6/27/2015 12:58:14 PM

Lowpe

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March 4, 1944

No night bombing.

Allies do bombard with CL/DD forces all along northern eastern Honshu. No mine hits.

No bombing of Honshu or sweeping of Honshu other than Akita, which is not defended.

I did lose a damaged xap to a Yank sub, escorts then put heavy damage on the sub.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/27/2015 2:03:00 PM >

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Post #: 5241

RE: Unorthodox - 6/27/2015 2:34:03 PM

Lowpe

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Never having played this far I am learning a ton of lessons, mostly the hard way.

My biggest fear in an invasion of Honshu. I figure I need minimum 2+ divisons, generous ART and CD and AA guns in the likely hexes. With a rapid reaction reserve of at least 4 divisions. I am not there yet.

My next biggest fear, is an attack that somehow cuts the Fusan lifeline. Korea is fairly well protected now against that (not against the Soviets, how cheesey is that?).

My third biggest fear is getting cut off in Thailand. I have 150 days until the RTA goes away, and I am not sure how I am going to make up for those lost AV. They really aren't on the front lines now, but they do provide the rear area garrisons. This army has to survive intact for me to avoid autovictory in 1945. Perhaps it should be my greatest concern?

My fourth biggest fear is the arrival of B29s. Why you ask...simple. Their presence will make me protect many more bases, in effect greatly dispersing my fighters and night fighters.

I have inflicted 21,000 land VP on the Allies. This will to a large degree protect me from the strategic losses I am suffering (I will guess that he will get 40,000 by the end of 1944). But this only works if I can avoid horrendous land losses myself � especially at risk is the Thailand divisions.

I have not weakened the defenses at Daito, Bonins or Okinawa. And actually need to build Formosa and Okinawa along with the better potential island bases west of Honshu. So many demands for troops.

So, yeah, I threw away the KB in the Marianas. And, yeah, I lost Hokkaido. Old news.

But perhaps I can make 45 without giving up an autovictory. It will be tough, but it is doable.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/27/2015 3:35:41 PM >

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Post #: 5242

RE: Unorthodox - 6/27/2015 2:38:56 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Your opponent could be running low on 4Es. Or at least have realized his losses are way above his replacement rate. In my game vs. Erik I had to do the same thing. No 4E combat for something like 6 month just to be able to fill out all the squadrons!

There is no question I have been inflicting severe losses on him. A six month hiatus would be too good to be true however.

I really wonder what the Allies will do next: straight for Honshu, or pick off the bases across the Empire. Heck, I am still in Oz!

I never, ever thought I would be here in March 44 still shipping fuel and oil from the SRA. Probably won't need it, but then again you never know!

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Post #: 5243

RE: Unorthodox - 6/27/2015 4:42:43 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I'm going to say it again about bombing of troops in move mode: use Reserve mode. I do. You should too. There is almost never a reason not to use it when moving units that have a good chance of being bombed.

This is a "gamey" use of a bugged engine mechanism. It won't ever be fixed because too many players like to exploit it.

Alfred

Aha, Lok! You gamey player.

Shrug. It's part of the game, for good or bad. Unless you and your opponent have agreed not to use it, you should use it.

I use it.

_____________________________

The Moose

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Post #: 5244

RE: Unorthodox - 6/27/2015 5:47:35 PM

Lowpe

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March 6, 1944

Back to night bombing of Honshu. I am glad he gave me that nice long break to rebuild my flight crews and planes and add lots more AA. Tokyo for example is up to 14 AA units now.

I lose 7 Nicks and 1 Irving -- Allies lose a lot! Plus, in some kind of strange weird way the Allies bomb my airfields! Imagine that.

His altitudes are all over the place: from 2K to 20K.

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Post #: 5245

RE: Unorthodox - 6/27/2015 5:50:51 PM

Lowpe

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NF with Tracom pilots are really saving the day for Japan. It will be a different story come the B29 which is faster and tougher, but they really don't show up in huge numbers till 45.

I get two more NF squadrons shortly, and I really do need them, because my NF are good, but very brittle. They can't stand up to day after day (ergh, night after night) work.

These beasties came in at 2K and got shredded...

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Post #: 5246

RE: Unorthodox - 6/27/2015 5:55:43 PM

Lowpe

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Allies did bomb heavily in Thailand unopposed, and also nailed Ominato unopposed.

But a solid win for the NF -- look at all those beasties down and they were almost totally ineffective!

I lost 4 or 5 planes on the ground, didn't even scratch the runway after the night crew finished patching.

Today was perhaps the best NF performance of the war...so I doubt it will get any better.

I sense the Allies getting frustrated here...jumping around their targets, day and night, but suffering nasty losses no matter what they do.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/27/2015 6:57:05 PM >

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Post #: 5247

RE: Unorthodox - 6/27/2015 6:00:01 PM

Lowpe

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Elsewhere I sank a Yank sub, lost a IJN Destroyer to a sub near Fusan, and had some inexpensive xakls hit by assault bombers.

I reinforced Hirosaki with two more regiments, landed two more regiments on Honshu and started to get my AA reinforcements.

And Honshu industry remains strong.

A good day for 1944.

Even more 4E losses posted in Tracker than here. Woohoo! This was my first positive points day in quite a while.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/27/2015 7:44:02 PM >

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Post #: 5248

RE: Unorthodox - 6/27/2015 8:28:28 PM

Lowpe

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Sent the turn, trying a LRCAP trap this turn. Pretty tricky, as the Allies are sweeping all over the place and the LRCAP could react into the wrong hex, so I am trying new settings.

I set the LRCAP squadrons to 0 react, but picked the hex which is two away from their base. We will see if this keeps the squadrons only over the targeted hex.

I will probably have an engine crunch in ha45 in six months or so...not good, if I am still alive.

Sent my kamikaze helens (69 average LNav skill) 14 oscars for escort, and a squadron of babs to Paramushiro which has been neglected by the Allies lately. They will look for a nice target up to 11 hexes away...flying down low at 2K so flak will be nasty, but they could slip under something.

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Post #: 5249

RE: Unorthodox - 6/27/2015 9:32:01 PM

Lowpe

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March 7, 1944

Lots of sub action. It seems my older Es are better than the Super Es. Perhaps it is a crew experience?