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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/10/2015 11:36:44 AM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Despite no escorts, subsequent waves of Allied bomber make their runs...the brave are always the first to die.




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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/10/2015 11:43:55 AM   
Lowpe


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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/10/2015 11:48:34 AM   
Lowpe


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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/10/2015 9:46:19 PM   
Lowpe


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No night bombing.

Chiang Myi takes a horrendous attack from almost every fighter and bomber in the Allied arsenal, for their hosting of fighter squadrons from yesterday that did such damage at Taung Gyi. However, the Japanese had sent all fighters back to Bangkok, and relative safety.

Ponape gets hit by 4E bombing, unopposed, and it consumes or destroys 800 supplies. Ouch.

Supply convoy is nearing Kusaie, protected by some light screening forces and the mighty, well not so mighty, KB is lurking within strike range. So far nothing is detected.

Barges are moving elements of an infantry division back from Rabaul to Kavieng.






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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/10/2015 9:53:05 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Here is the first use of the very long legged Norm.

Amidst, hopefully crowded Allied supply lines, the Norms, Jakes and Glens (slightly off map to the east) will spot lightly defended (hopefully) convoys and savage them far, far from any port.

We are searching an insanely large amount of ocean here....can the Allied ships hide?






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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 12:25:38 AM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Below is the factories repaired for the Ki202...our great hope for 45.

Ki100-I will come on line in September, probably the 2nd day. They will quickly form up and head to Burma and the SRA. I am curious to see how the plane fares, compared to the Tojo IIc.

I have one factory of the Sam J halfway fixed, so they are progressing too, but at a slower rate than the the Ki202.

KB planes: I am still relying on the first generation Judy, and in fact, have many Val squadrons on land performing varied duties from ASW, to Training. All fighters are the A6M5c fighter, and will be for most of 44 too (not great, but it is what I can afford). The first generation Jill and Judy C round out the KB planes.

Lilly Divebombers: I have six squadrons of them, I believe. Four are near Burma/Indochina and two are around Rabaul. All six will probably form up at one of the new major airbases either at Bangkok, Pisanuloke, or maybe Guam. My experience with these bombers is that they are very, very fragile and need to be used carefully...perhaps the C model will prove a little tougher but I doubt it.

The Peggy T looks to be researching well: Means I might get the Peggy T four months ahead of schedule depending on the engine bonus. No great hope for this plane, as I think getting trained pilots will be difficult. Kamikaze perhaps?

Nick D, NF, seems to be going slow, as does the Dinah KAI NF. Peggy NF is coming along nicely, but the real joy in NF is the Irv SA, which I will have very early, and the Frances which will be my goto plane for anti B29 work.









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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 12:44:51 AM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		According to tracker quite a few squadrons of Helens can become Peggy T.

Would it be a better Kamikaze than the Helen or Oscar IV? I don't have a planned Army kamikaze, like I will have the Myojo (800 kg bomb) for the Navy.

I need to think about how hard I go after the Peggy T. Surely the strategic position of the Empire in a few months will dictate how heavy I go for this plane.






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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 1:11:39 AM   
njp72

 

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Status: offline 		I have found the 2e Army bombers to be quite useful as kamikazes, though of course expensive.

Hitting anything but merchant shipping in 44 with a torpedo has been problematic for me. Even without mass fighter cover the flak has been murderous.

Kamikazes on the other hand seem to have the ability to hit anything including CVs, though at times the damage inflicted is difficult to gauge. Still they rip CVEs apart which has been most useful :-)




quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

According to tracker quite a few squadrons of Helens can become Peggy T.

Would it be a better Kamikaze than the Helen or Oscar IV? I don't have a planned Army kamikaze, like I will have the Myojo (800 kg bomb) for the Navy.

I need to think about how hard I go after the Peggy T. Surely the strategic position of the Empire in a few months will dictate how heavy I go for this plane.







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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 2:59:23 AM   
topeverest


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Status: offline 		not to be depressing, but 45 is an ice age away. I am guessing that in about 6 months you will have to defend the Philippines.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Below is the factories repaired for the Ki202...our great hope for 45.



< Message edited by topeverest -- 1/11/2015 4:01:38 AM >

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 3:03:43 AM   
Lokasenna


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Status: offline 		The Ki-100 isn't as fast as the Tojo-IIc, but it has heavier guns. That says to me that it won't perform as well defending against sweeps, but if you use it in places with radar it should be a good line-filler amongst Franks/Jacks/SR >1 airframes against bomber raids. I say radar because it's climb rate is abysmal compared to the Tojo-IIc. But it should make a good bomber interceptor if you set your altitudes correctly.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 7:26:04 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Here is the first use of the very long legged Norm.

Amidst, hopefully crowded Allied supply lines, the Norms, Jakes and Glens (slightly off map to the east) will spot lightly defended (hopefully) convoys and savage them far, far from any port.

We are searching an insanely large amount of ocean here....can the Allied ships hide?



I tried this once around the same time in the game against Jocke. Just by chance I was looking at his AAR for something else a few days ago and noticed his post about my "raiding" party. He spotted two DDs near the Aleutians (which I didn't notice) and the whole area between the West Coast and PH was barren of traffic by the time the raiders got there.

I was just lucky his CVs weren't in the area, as we ended up simply turning around empty handed, minus a lot of fuel.

Raids can work, but as Japan the chances of this kind of move doing anything besides losing a lot of fuel and potentially some good ships are pretty slim. That said, it's sometimes fun to just throw the dice, but if you don't find anything where you think there should be something, then you may want to get out quickly as you might have turned into the hunted.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 1:08:08 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

not to be depressing, but 45 is an ice age away. I am guessing that in about 6 months you will have to defend the Philippines.



I hope it is six months away. You are not being depressing...I think the one thing that is saving me right now, is my opponent isn't as well versed in the order of battle of Japan and doesn't really recognize how weak I am.



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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 1:11:54 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njp72

I have found the 2e Army bombers to be quite useful as kamikazes, though of course expensive.
quote:



Expensive versus effective. 2 engines instead of one, more supply to fly attack missions (bigger payload). More supplies to reinforce depleted squadrons.

If pilots aren't a constraint, are you better off having twice the number of kamikazes with single engine planes? I bet the answer is yes, these Grigsby games always favor large numbers.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 1:15:30 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The Ki-100 isn't as fast as the Tojo-IIc, but it has heavier guns. That says to me that it won't perform as well defending against sweeps, but if you use it in places with radar it should be a good line-filler amongst Franks/Jacks/SR >1 airframes against bomber raids. I say radar because it's climb rate is abysmal compared to the Tojo-IIc. But it should make a good bomber interceptor if you set your altitudes correctly.


I want cannons. Centerline cannons, and the Tojo IIc don't have them. Tojo IIc, a good plane, just doesn't fit in with how I am using the air force.

The Japanese airforce exists to protect bases beyond Jug range and for traps. Within Jug ranges, I will only be doing one day cap traps.

I can't fight strength for strength. But when his bombers get outside of Jug range, I want to be able to put a hurt on them and that means cannons.



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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 1:18:48 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I tried this once around the same time in the game against Jocke. Just by chance I was looking at his AAR for something else a few days ago and noticed his post about my "raiding" party. He spotted two DDs near the Aleutians (which I didn't notice) and the whole area between the West Coast and PH was barren of traffic by the time the raiders got there.

I was just lucky his CVs weren't in the area, as we ended up simply turning around empty handed, minus a lot of fuel.

Raids can work, but as Japan the chances of this kind of move doing anything besides losing a lot of fuel and potentially some good ships are pretty slim. That said, it's sometimes fun to just throw the dice, but if you don't find anything where you think there should be something, then you may want to get out quickly as you might have turned into the hunted.


Thanks so much for the words of experience. I feel that I have to do some offensive actions, threatening the supply lines, otherwise the Allied brain will think too offensively.

I have been miserly with fuel for two and half months, and this raid will accomplish two purposes, hopefully netting some ships, and also garnering more intel about his offensive capabilities in the area.

But, I do plan on retreating and not sticking around...Allied intel can pinpoint ships anywhere.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 1:24:41 PM   
Lowpe


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No night bombing.

Lost an Iboat to a 3 fletchers in the deep seas. A wandering encounter...Japanese planes attack several American subs.

Other than that, normal Allied bombing and sweeps. Unopposed, except for flak.

A fresh Division unloads at Saipan. 5,000 supplies are one day out of Kusaie, unfortunately, those supplies will last at best 10-12 days. My ships are in a flaw in Allied search patterns...

Combined the last of those funky garrison/port units into base forces. The ones that start with the missing command HQs.


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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 3:41:15 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I tried this once around the same time in the game against Jocke. Just by chance I was looking at his AAR for something else a few days ago and noticed his post about my "raiding" party. He spotted two DDs near the Aleutians (which I didn't notice) and the whole area between the West Coast and PH was barren of traffic by the time the raiders got there.

I was just lucky his CVs weren't in the area, as we ended up simply turning around empty handed, minus a lot of fuel.

Raids can work, but as Japan the chances of this kind of move doing anything besides losing a lot of fuel and potentially some good ships are pretty slim. That said, it's sometimes fun to just throw the dice, but if you don't find anything where you think there should be something, then you may want to get out quickly as you might have turned into the hunted.


Thanks so much for the words of experience. I feel that I have to do some offensive actions, threatening the supply lines, otherwise the Allied brain will think too offensively.



That's a dangerous line of thought as Japan in mid-43. Don't rush to do something because you feel that you must. WitP is a waiting game at times, which is what me and Loka are learning just now.

The Allies can really hurt you, and an even trade of ships at this point is a massive boost to the Allies - they have more on the way, you don't. At this point, I'd perhaps use any of the AMC ships, if you've any left. Anything more valuable would be too risky for me.

Do a best case/worst case/most likey analysis.

Best case: You find a massive convoy loaded with troops and tankers and sink every ship. You get some nice VP's, but do you really hurt the Allies offensive capaicty beyond forcing a shake-up of convoy routes?

Most likely case: You find nothing and waste some fuel.

Worst case: Allies get wind of your ships, bait them in and sink them all.

Keep in mind, I'm not a big fan of raiding. The only time I really think it is worthwhile is in the early months of the war when the Allies need to move stuff forward but don't have enough escorts or secure SLOC's.

That said, I had considered a raid on Colombo recently with the KB, but I scrubbed it because I really didn't fancy losing a bunch of pilots to flak in order to sink/damage a couple hundred xAK's.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 4:11:18 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		I am not risking a whole lot. My Radier du war, the Tone, a support destroyer. This time she is joined by a CL and another destroyer supported with a CS which is staying pretty back and should be very low risk.

The Tone, which has raided quite often, striking at Karachi once netting several xak and three juicy 20 VP AMCs, and at Perth nailing a tanker, several xaks, an xap or two and two more dinky amcs. I feel that when the Tone goes down, she will have earned her fuel.

But my point is that if the Allies don't feel they need to protect all their lines then an even bigger hammer falls on Japan. I want him having to click and set patrols, hunt raiders. Hopefully just a few Japanese ships can tie down a whole bunch more Allied.

Yes, the Allies are huge, but the mental shock of having raiders show up in unexpected places is great...at least when it happens to me.


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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 4:37:09 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
But my point is that if the Allies don't feel they need to protect all their lines then an even bigger hammer falls on Japan. I want him having to click and set patrols, hunt raiders. Hopefully just a few Japanese ships can tie down a whole bunch more Allied.

Yes, the Allies are huge, but the mental shock of having raiders show up in unexpected places is great...at least when it happens to me.




See, I'd never really considered the psychological impact, which is pretty suprising all things considered. I've limited myself to long-range bombing raids on out-of-the-way bases, which has it's worth in forcing Loka to get his rear-area bases provided with CAP, but hardly going to make much difference.

I think you've changed my mind in regards to raiding - I'd always dismissed it out of hand as being a waste of perfectly good ships and fuel with no promise of a return on the investment.

I'll need to see about getting a few raiding forces formed shortly. I won't go as far as heavy crusiers though, perhaps some of the semi-useless CL's and the AMC's.

Then again, I might not bother, and just leave this post here to keep Lokasenna second-guessing with what I write on the fourms and what I do in-game.

You have to play the opponent as much as you play the game.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 5:20:41 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		AMCs are almost entirely worthless as raiders....they can't fight their way thru a paperbag, at least for me. Use your AMCs to shepherd oilers or amphibious invasions, or evacuations, or as almost an AP.

The perfect raider setup is two or three destroyers with an xak in reserve to provide fuel...the destroyers go to town on convoy, and can usually escape bigger threats with only a few hits. Use Glen equipped subs to be the eyes and ears around the target area. Plus the Allies really gotta wonder about how the destroyers got fuel.

The Oi and her sister ship make great raiders, with 40 torps each, if you didn't upgrade them. However, they have very little fuel on board and you need to overcome that obstacle.

Forgot to mention the Tone class is I think the most fuel efficient CA in the IJN, combined with 5 float planes, she makes a fearsome raider. Very, very fast too.


< Message edited by Lowpe -- 1/11/2015 6:35:22 PM >

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 5:46:04 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

AMCs are almost entirely worthless as raiders....they can't fight their way thru a paperbag, at least for me. Use your AMCs to shepherd oilers or amphibious invasions, or evacuations, or as almost an AP.

The perfect raider setup is two or three destroyers with an xak in reserve to provide fuel...the destroyers go to town on convoy, and can usually escape bigger threats with only a few hits. Use Glen equipped subs to be the eyes and ears around the target area. Plus the Allies really gotta wonder about how the destroyers got fuel.

The Oi and her sister ship make great raiders, with 40 torps each, if you didn't upgrade them. However, they have very little fuel on board and you need to overcome that obstacle.

Forgot to mention the Tone class is I think the most fuel efficient CA in the IJN, combined with 5 float planes, she makes a fearsome raider. Very, very fast too.



AMCs can sink merchants aplenty. Depending on crew experience and commanders, they can take on pre-war DDs as well, especially early on in the game: those AMCs have cruiser-size guns. Just a couple of hits will put a hurting on a DD.


As for a waiting game, well...

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 6:49:24 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		They have to hit the destroyers...I never can manage that. Plus, they launch all their torpedoes at the destroyers too, missing them, instead of using them on the fat merchants.

I have yet to beat a destroyer with an AMC. My bad luck. They do work well on ships protected by yard ships and such.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 8:25:38 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I am not risking a whole lot. My Radier du war, the Tone, a support destroyer. This time she is joined by a CL and another destroyer supported with a CS which is staying pretty back and should be very low risk.

The Tone, which has raided quite often, striking at Karachi once netting several xak and three juicy 20 VP AMCs, and at Perth nailing a tanker, several xaks, an xap or two and two more dinky amcs. I feel that when the Tone goes down, she will have earned her fuel.

But my point is that if the Allies don't feel they need to protect all their lines then an even bigger hammer falls on Japan. I want him having to click and set patrols, hunt raiders. Hopefully just a few Japanese ships can tie down a whole bunch more Allied.

Yes, the Allies are huge, but the mental shock of having raiders show up in unexpected places is great...at least when it happens to me.




Not risking a lot!!!!!?????!!!

A CS is a CVL. Even without conversion using float fighters make them a low CAP CVL for the KB in addition to supplying the much needed extra search that can make a huge difference in a CV battle. The Tone is a modern CA and you don't get even close to enough of those as Japan. They're still really useful as the game goes on due to their speed and punch.

I can't say I didn't also risk these high value ships, but I would advocate now against it. The shock to the Allies is minimal unless you manage to stumble on and sink some CVEs or a division on board transports. It all can happen, but there are other ways to get him thinking that his rear areas are in danger.

Have you been able to take advantage of the 21 hex range of the G3M3 and LR recon yet?

Have you sent out hunter/killer sub groups led by a few Glen subs and using the other 20+ knot I-boats? With those if you catch something there's little risk for you and a LOT for him, especially if he's not using enough escort.

Anyway, I know this is fun, and I did a LOT of port raids and a few deep ocean raids with a really optimistic idea it would do something for me. The KB raids were more effective, but the deep ocean raids weren't. As the game got further toward the end I realized for me the gamble outweighed the benefit.

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/11/2015 10:29:48 PM >

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 11:05:32 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Well, we will see what the outcome of this little operation will be...

I am using my 23 knot Subs aggressively, in fact there are two in this operation with the Tone.

PS: I don't think I would ever dream of using a CS with the KB to use 20 float fighters in a low CAP role. I always have some Zeroes doing that...in general I don't like putting the CS with the KB, except back a few hexes for search when longer legged floats are available.

Also, I am not sold on the CVL conversion, it is so long (2/3 of a year) right when you can use the CS to accomplish some interesting missions. However, now that I am getting two CVLs on the morrow, they will get stuffed with fighters for KB so maybe I will change my mind? I hate this game, always changing my mind.




< Message edited by Lowpe -- 1/12/2015 12:19:24 AM >

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 11:12:50 PM   
Lowpe


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No night bombing.

Rockets advance another month. KI-100 advances too. Irving SA advances tomorrow.

Lots of anti sub operations to no surface effect, planes might be different. My Hunter Killer group (1DD, 3E, radar, mortars) engages twice for one indirect hit. Unfortunately the W class E is the only E to engage, and they lack the mortar). A Dutch sub manages to sneak a torpedo into a 8k tanker, who will make port safely.

5,000 supplies unloading at Kusaie, but the ships are spotted, we will see what happens, as there is a Fletcher task force south, south east 450 miles away.

I sent 6 Emilies on a port raid against Madras. They run into British fighter bombers, and the combat report lists 2 destroyed. End of day report lists 5 destroyed. Looking at the squadron all planes returned and now in maintenance...not one gone.



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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 11:33:28 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Another depressing new month of Allied plane models coming up. 38 B24Js, the first Mustang, Spitfires (thank goodness they have short range), a nifty New Zealand torpedo bomber with radar, attack bombers, more nightfighters....ugh.

I will get Ki100-I, the first Jack (no plans on making it), and something else that eludes me right now - must not be memorable (oh yeah, two lesser Tonies with better lines).


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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 11:49:18 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Well, we will see what the outcome of this little operation will be...

I am using my 23 knot Subs aggressively, in fact there are two in this operation with the Tone.

PS: I don't think I would ever dream of using a CS with the KB to use 20 float fighters in a low CAP role. I always have some Zeroes doing that...in general I don't like putting the CS with the KB, except back a few hexes for search when longer legged floats are available.

Also, I am not sold on the CVL conversion, it is so long (2/3 of a year) right when you can use the CS to accomplish some interesting missions. However, now that I am getting two CVLs on the morrow, they will get stuffed with fighters for KB so maybe I will change my mind? I hate this game, always changing my mind.



I don't convert the CS (excepting the Mizuho due to its improvement in speed) and use Jakes, Rufes, Rexes and Norm in some combinations. They work well in the slower part of the KB, the Kaga/Junyo/Hiyo TF. Or with CVL/CVE. It does work. It's a lot of extra planes to search and the FF do just fine on lower level CAP or a low level escort.


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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/11/2015 11:50:41 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Another depressing new month of Allied plane models coming up. 38 B24Js, the first Mustang, Spitfires (thank goodness they have short range), a nifty New Zealand torpedo bomber with radar, attack bombers, more nightfighters....ugh.

I will get Ki100-I, the first Jack (no plans on making it), and something else that eludes me right now - must not be memorable (oh yeah, two lesser Tonies with better lines).




It's more than 38 B-24J. It's the production plus the replacements, so more like 55. Can't remember the exact number. A lot more than before.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/12/2015 12:44:37 AM   
topeverest


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Status: offline 		I don't recall the status of the KB, can you clarify what your CV fleet has, and how experienced the pilots are?

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 1/12/2015 2:51:21 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Another depressing new month of Allied plane models coming up. 38 B24Js, the first Mustang, Spitfires (thank goodness they have short range), a nifty New Zealand torpedo bomber with radar, attack bombers, more nightfighters....ugh.

I will get Ki100-I, the first Jack (no plans on making it), and something else that eludes me right now - must not be memorable (oh yeah, two lesser Tonies with better lines).




It's more than 38 B-24J. It's the production plus the replacements, so more like 55. Can't remember the exact number. A lot more than before.


It won't show on the IJ side, but I'm pretty sure that Tracker adds together on the Allied side at least.

(in reply to obvert)
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