RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period.

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RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 9/29/2014 4:09:38 AM

Gizuria

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ace1

Graphics are beautiful.
That is one of the best aspects of the game, but I guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder...

Definitely subjective, but I also like the graphics. Great artwork and nice period feel.

Shame though that you feel:

"...TEAW at present feels too much like a game system in search of a war."

You posted that in response to someone's query as to whether he should buy this game. Way to win over the customers

(in reply to Queeg)

Post #: 91

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 9/29/2014 4:18:33 AM

Queeg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog

Shame though that you feel:

"...TEAW at present feels too much like a game system in search of a war."

You posted that in response to someone's query as to whether he should buy this game. Way to win over the customers

It's not my job to "win over the customers." Perhaps you feel a need to act as an unpaid PR agent for AGEOD, but I don't.

The things that are good - the artwork, the battle mechanics, the period feel - I'll tout.

But the things that are bad - the AI, the weak command and control system, and handling of the EE on the strategy-game side - I'll criticize.

AGEOD are big boys. They don't need training wheels. And we do neither them, nor their potential customers, any favors by blowing smoke about their games. They have many other great games. Suggesting this game, at present, is representative of their other work is no compliment.

(in reply to Gizuria)

Post #: 92

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 9/29/2014 6:02:23 AM

Gizuria

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Of course it's not your job and nobody expects you to either. But do you really need to be quite so negative when you're answering their questions? You don't think AGEOD are unable to fix the AI in the game, do you? Assuming that your answer to that question is 'No", wouldn't it suffice to warn folks that the AI isn't up to AGEOD's usual standards but it's a fresh release and they're working hard to fix it. Caveat Emptor? That way, you give them an honest answer to their question and it's up to them. You don't have to be a company toadie.

Battle mechanics? You made a number of very lengthy posts explaining why you thought WW1 CE's combat mechanics were superior, IYO, in a similar thread about comparing TEAW of that title. Glad to see you've changed your mind.

Period feel? Haven't you made several posts already to the effect that the game doesn't feel like WW1 but more like 'CW with pointy hats'? Just from this thread alone:

quote:

Agreed. TEAW has wonderful artwork and loads of detailed units, but it doesn't really capture the feeling of WWI, at least at present.

WWI Gold does a much better job of modeling WWI - better diplomacy, better recreation of trench warfare, better simulation of combat across a front rather than just stacks, better simulation of the development of new combat doctrines and execution in ground offenses (via the Grand Offensive mechanism).

< Message edited by Queeg -- 9/23/2014 12:38:20 PM >

quote:

#50

I can tell you the current AI is a mess and the game presently feels nothing - not even a little - like WWI.

quote:

#53

I've never seen anything resembling a Battle of the Frontiers, but I've seen plenty of Sedans. This game plays like the Franco-Prussian War far more than WWI.

quote:

#56

Yes, the human is better than the AI in CW2, but the game engine there at least feels like the CW and AI acts in a manner that is plausible and consistent with that setting.

Here, at present, neither the game engine nor the AI resemble WWI.

Not related to the period feel but the regular, monotonous drumbeat of your gloomy negativity is evident here.

quote:

#58

I fear this game is quickly headed for the MP-only heap - which is a shame considering AGEOD's other games

Seriously, do you think you could wait until the patch is released before making more of these needlessly disparaging remarks?

< Message edited by Fascist Dog -- 9/29/2014 2:20:29 PM >

(in reply to Queeg)

Post #: 93

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 9/29/2014 7:09:27 AM

Ace1_slith

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When you think of it, two biggest complaints have been bad AI and long turns. It is difficult to balance those two since taking care of one makes the other one worse. Imagine Kasparov complaining that Deep Blue takes too much time to calculate its move. It would be apsurd. The developers have been working on scripts to forbid the AI from doing some stupid things, but as long as the AI has it's time limit, there is bound to be problems. Compared to CW2, this game has much more regions to operate in. That is why it is so good in MP. But all those extra regions are draining AI resources, since human can judge which areas are important and which are not. AI can't do that.

< Message edited by Ace1 -- 9/29/2014 8:15:48 AM >

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Post #: 94

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 9/29/2014 10:55:34 AM

wodin

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If the AI is decent long turn times don't bother me to much..I mean I beta test Tigers Unleashed for christ sake:)

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Post #: 95

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 9/29/2014 1:01:20 PM

Gizuria

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

If the AI is decent long turn times don't bother me to much..I mean I beta test Tigers Unleashed for christ sake:)

Is that some sort of circus management sim game?

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 96

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 9/29/2014 1:24:29 PM

Queeg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog

You don't think AGEOD are unable to fix the AI in the game, do you? Assuming that your answer to that question is 'No", wouldn't it suffice to warn folks that the AI isn't up to AGEOD's usual standards but it's a fresh release and they're working hard to fix it. Caveat Emptor? That way, you give them an honest answer to their question and it's up to them.

I don't know if they will be able to bring the AI in this game up to par with their other games for the reasons Ace mentions in his post above, plus a few others. This is a much bigger game than this engine has modeled in the past. And the fundamental style of warfare - broad-front multi-army offensives as opposed to single army battles - is very different from AGEOD's 19th Century games. Finally, the lack of a comprehensive command and control system leaves the AI with no way to organize its units except to lump them into giant, penalized stacks.

The AI, at present, is far too passive, doesn't seem to understand strategic objectives, cannot create the supply lines necessary to sustain offensives, and generally can't control its units except by ignoring the stacking penalties. The challenges here are far greater than in AGEOD's other games. I hope they are able to whip the AI into shape - I only play SP, so I definitely want a good AI - but I have honest doubts about whether they will get there with this title.

It isn't a matter of effort - I know they will try very hard - but it may not be doable.

That's an honest answer.

(in reply to Gizuria)

Post #: 97

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 9/30/2014 10:58:40 AM

Haplo_Patryn

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West Front, 1915 february.

WWI, real WWI. Playing this game (or WitE, WitP/AE, BA, AT) against the IA is wasting time. IA will never play better than a human opponent, not even close to what a bad human player will. Why don't you try PBEM game guys? It's so easy, not problem at all.

Come on, if you want to play against IA it's ok but don't come here and tell us that this game is crap, bad or that is the last game you will buy from AGEOD because the IA is not good. Come on, Rome Total War 2 IA is a joke but is a bestseller or fans play it because like multiplayer, not for playing against the IA. It's ok to say what you think is the truth, but is not fair and at least AGEOD IA is far better than other IAs top sellers wargames. Do you really think that WitP/AE is a bad game because the IA is crap? Or WitE?

< Message edited by Haplo_Patryn -- 9/30/2014 12:13:15 PM >

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Post #: 98

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 9/30/2014 11:09:17 AM

Queeg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Haplo_Patryn

West Front, 1915 february.

WWI, real WWI. Playing this game (or WitE, WitP/AE, BA, AT) against the IA is wasting time. IA will never play better than a human opponent, not even close to what a bad human player will. Why don't you try PBEM game guys? It's so easy, not problem at all.

Come on, if you want to play against IA it's ok but don't come here and tell us that this game is crap, bad or that is the last game i will buy from AGEOD. It's ok, but not fair. Do you really think that WitP/AE is a bad game because the IA is crap? Or WitE?

PBEM isn't an option for everyone. Some of us have schedules that make MP impractical.

No one expects an AI as good as a human player. An AI comparable to AGEOD's other games would be fine. Here's hoping.

(in reply to Haplo_Patryn)

Post #: 99

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 9/30/2014 1:25:06 PM

vonRocko

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Ah the old excuse for a lame AI: "Play pbem"! The facts are the vast majority of people do not play that way. A semi competent AI is possible these days, if the developer isn't lazy.

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Post #: 100

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 10/4/2014 3:28:09 PM

Omnius

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I gave up on AGEOD after trying to play that Napoleonic rubbish heap and finding it pathetic in the extreme. I liked Birth of America although I had serious problems with the retreat illogic that is the industry's absolute worst. It was really stupid to watch armies retreat into places with no supply, merely because that was the way they came from. In the 1806 scenario I found it really ignorant that a defeated Prussian corp would retreat back into the woods region it came from instead of across the river towards the capital and a supply depot. The weather effects in the Napoleonic game were way too extreme, I saw how the scenario designs had to have earlier than historical starting dates to overcome the too extreme weather effects.

Instead of trying to fix these serious problems AGEOF offered nothing but lame excuses as to how these effects were realistic, a pack of self serving lies rather than fix the problem. The winter effects were ridiculous as some armies would actually show taking longer to get to their intended destination with each passing turn. That was when I gave up on AGEOD products.

A real shame because I love the WEGO game system that AGEOD uses. I wish AGEOD would admit prior mistakes and fix the problems and make sure to let those of us who gave up on them years ago for good reason now have a good reason to return to their products. Until I know for certain that current AGEOD products have logical retreat rules and weather effects I will just say NO to their offerings.

Omnius

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Post #: 101

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 10/8/2014 3:00:57 AM

Rosseau

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Bought it on game day, and will play it at some point. There are few developers I have more faith in than Ageod. At the same time, the suggestion that they bit off more than their AI can chew would be a bummer. I hope they come up with something better as I don't MP Ageod games.

I paid $26 for Centennial, played through a few years, and had some fun. But like the war it simulates, the lack of maneuver just got me bored.

Commander: The Great War might be the best game we have out there now on WW1.

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Post #: 102

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 10/9/2014 6:25:59 PM

mkjhartmann

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I totally agree. I buy almost everything Matrix/Slitherine publish, but this one had me bored to tears. Maybe it is the nature of WW I, or the incredibly dated system, but this was just a waste of money. A store credit would be a good gesture.

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Post #: 103

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 10/9/2014 10:39:26 PM

Queeg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

I paid $26 for Centennial, played through a few years, and had some fun. But like the war it simulates, the lack of maneuver just got me bored.

I do agree that WWI G/CE combat is a slugfest. I like it just because it is so different than warfare in any other era. Definitely a matter of taste, though.

So far, TEAW is more a model of what WWI might have been like had the armies had the sort of maneuverability of other eras or if the war, for whatever reason, had not bogged down into trenches. It is an interesting presentation, but it doesn't yet feel much like WWI to me.

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 104

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 11/2/2014 8:23:43 PM

ETF

Posts: 1748
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Ah the old excuse for a lame AI: "Play pbem"! The facts are the vast majority of people do not play that way. A semi competent AI is possible these days, if the developer isn't lazy.

I have been playing Wargames for 25 years. Never seen an AI that is even better than an intermediate Human. I never understood why people even feel the need to play the AI unless it was for tutorials to learn the game.

This game was a tad slow when learning against the AI. Mp games it is amazing. I would have to say better than any AGEOD game. I have most. Mind with out MP WEGO it would be a dud like all wargames here.

< Message edited by ETF -- 11/2/2014 9:27:21 PM >

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Post #: 105

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 11/4/2014 9:14:12 PM

elxaime

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Not sure why PBEM is seen as so daunting. It is not that hard to find opponents.

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RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 11/4/2014 10:22:39 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elxaime

Not sure why PBEM is seen as so daunting. It is not that hard to find opponents.

It depends. I'm not going to play PBEM in CWII again thanks to the "Put everything in the East" nonsense.
One doesn't have to worry about that against the AI.

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Post #: 107

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 11/14/2014 2:48:31 AM

Gilmer

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Sometimes it is your own schedule that makes it impossible to play PBEM. I'm sure opponents REALLY enjoy it when people take off for weeks at a time and have no turn incoming.

(That was sarcasm eh eh.)

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Post #: 108

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 11/19/2014 4:18:15 PM

MikeS369

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I want a store credit for every game I bought from Matrix that I think is crap. Wah wah wah.

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Post #: 109

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 11/19/2014 7:06:53 PM

FroBodine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elxaime

Not sure why PBEM is seen as so daunting. It is not that hard to find opponents.

Where is the best place to find opponents for AGEOD games, please? I would like to try some PBEM AJE or TEAW as soon as I get more comfortable with the systems.

Thanks!

(in reply to elxaime)

Post #: 110

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 11/19/2014 8:27:41 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jglazier

quote:

ORIGINAL: elxaime

Not sure why PBEM is seen as so daunting. It is not that hard to find opponents.

Where is the best place to find opponents for AGEOD games, please? I would like to try some PBEM AJE or TEAW as soon as I get more comfortable with the systems.

Thanks!

Hi best is on the AGEOD forums, put a post into this thread. I think most of the AGEOD PBEM community tend to use their forums rather than those over on Matrix.

having said that, if you fancy some AJE PBEM then drop me a PM and see what/if we can work out?

< Message edited by loki100 -- 11/19/2014 9:28:43 PM >

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RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 11/20/2014 12:49:25 AM

mikeCK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elxaime

Not sure why PBEM is seen as so daunting. It is not that hard to find opponents.

Well, like many wargamers, I am not in college or single. I have a full time career, a wife and 2 kids; kids that need to be taken to baseball practice, piano lessons, volleyball games, etc. Kids that need dad to help with homework ...blah blah.

Point is that some of us might get 3 hours of gaming time one night but not even touch the thing for a week. No one wants to wait days on end for a turn. So, like Queeg and many others, I only play single player. The game is advertised as having a single player component so people have a right to expect a competent AI. Personally, I love AGEOD games and find their AI to be pretty good...particularly if you place house rules on yourself (like not just rushing to promote all the best generals in ACW2 in 1862 as if you would actually know)

I like this game. But if someone has a complaint about the AI, it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that is THEIR problem because they should play PBEM.

(in reply to elxaime)

Post #: 112

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 11/20/2014 3:09:51 AM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

Sometimes it is your own schedule that makes it impossible to play PBEM. I'm sure opponents REALLY enjoy it when people take off for weeks at a time and have no turn incoming.

(That was sarcasm eh eh.)

HA. After two months, I gave up on my WiTP PBEM. (Way back in 2005.) Still haven't heard from the guy.....:)

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Post #: 113

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 11/23/2014 2:02:02 AM

Gilmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

Sometimes it is your own schedule that makes it impossible to play PBEM. I'm sure opponents REALLY enjoy it when people take off for weeks at a time and have no turn incoming.

(That was sarcasm eh eh.)

HA. After two months, I gave up on my WiTP PBEM. (Way back in 2005.) Still haven't heard from the guy.....:)

I always wondered about that. I see AARs that are two people playing then they just stop. And I always wonder if one of them just stopped playing. Ideally, you'll find someone with a very similar schedule who is also on pretty much your same skill level. It hardly ever works out that way and I'm pretty sure some people have not played me again in PBEM games not because I'm unethical but because they might have thought, "This guy is hopeless. I'd have more of a challenge playing my cat!" I don't think I have ever won a PBEM game, my total count is about 5-6 though, haha.

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"Venimus, vidimus, Deus vicit" John III Sobieski as he entered Vienna on 9/11/1683. "I came, I saw, God conquered."
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RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 11/23/2014 2:40:06 AM

Symple

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H Gilmer, you not only make me laugh but you make me identify.
Lots of reason other players drop out, but my opponents who are better than your cat, they love playing me.

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Post #: 115

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 11/23/2014 4:31:55 AM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

Sometimes it is your own schedule that makes it impossible to play PBEM. I'm sure opponents REALLY enjoy it when people take off for weeks at a time and have no turn incoming.

(That was sarcasm eh eh.)

HA. After two months, I gave up on my WiTP PBEM. (Way back in 2005.) Still haven't heard from the guy.....:)

I always wondered about that. I see AARs that are two people playing then they just stop. And I always wonder if one of them just stopped playing. Ideally, you'll find someone with a very similar schedule who is also on pretty much your same skill level. It hardly ever works out that way and I'm pretty sure some people have not played me again in PBEM games not because I'm unethical but because they might have thought, "This guy is hopeless. I'd have more of a challenge playing my cat!" I don't think I have ever won a PBEM game, my total count is about 5-6 though, haha.

Heh.... Wasn't that big a deal. Playing as the Japanese, I had just seized Palmyra IIRC. I jst hope he's still around and well.

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RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 12/24/2014 10:46:21 PM

Joe D.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Queeg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Haplo_Patryn

West Front, 1915 february.

WWI, real WWI. Playing this game (or WitE, WitP/AE, BA, AT) against the IA is wasting time. IA will never play better than a human opponent, not even close to what a bad human player will. Why don't you try PBEM game guys? It's so easy, not problem at all.

Come on, if you want to play against IA it's ok but don't come here and tell us that this game is crap, bad or that is the last game i will buy from AGEOD. It's ok, but not fair. Do you really think that WitP/AE is a bad game because the IA is crap? Or WitE?

PBEM isn't an option for everyone. Some of us have schedules that make MP impractical.

No one expects an AI as good as a human player. An AI comparable to AGEOD's other games would be fine. Here's hoping.

Isn't this game using AGEOD's Athena AI?
That's one the best AIs around.

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Post #: 117

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 12/27/2014 3:31:05 PM

ETF

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Sorry double post

< Message edited by ETF -- 12/27/2014 4:33:10 PM >

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Post #: 118

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 12/27/2014 3:32:17 PM

ETF

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quote:

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

Sometimes it is your own schedule that makes it impossible to play PBEM. I'm sure opponents REALLY enjoy it when people take off for weeks at a time and have no turn incoming.

(That was sarcasm eh eh.)

I have done that.....no problem usually. Mind you most people don't do that :)
PBEM is just that for people with real lives and families. Ideally for the best experience I like LAN wargaming. Mind you THAT is not for everyone. PBEM though I find hard to see how one can't play that? Turn once a month sure...once a week .....sure....once an hour sure. It all depends on how YOU and your opponent want to play. SIMPLE :)

< Message edited by ETF -- 12/27/2014 4:35:30 PM >

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Post #: 119

RE: My Last AGEOD Game. Period. - 12/27/2014 5:41:25 PM

operating

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I find the frequency of play usually has to do with what time zone the players are in, and as ETF points out, depends on individual's choice of play. I'll admit; that doing turns once a week is a bit of a drag, that means it would be 2 years to complete a 118 turn match. Currently in 4 Matches that average about 1 turn a day each, sometimes more on weekends, mind you that is CTGW matches, however, bought EAW to learn and play in MP, because of some of the reviews. So far find the game somewhat more complex than CTGW, where I could understand a greater turn around time on turns (at present). Where ETF is from Canada and I am from the East coast of the USA, we would more than likely have a considerably faster game than an opponent on the other side of the world. What I do like is; When up against these distant locations is an appreciation for their use of the English language and learn about their culture, points of view, things like that, gives me an idea about what makes them "tick", and I'm sure it is the same for them in the same respect.

(in reply to ETF)

Post #: 120