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RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/19/2016 11:10:21 PM   
kevinkins


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USS John P. Murtha (LPD 26) arrives in San Diego.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQqT9PcwSlc&feature=iv&src_vid=bZKO5_k9UME&annotation_id=channel%3A571bbb2f-0000-238d-adeb-94eb2c08d19a

(in reply to Cik)
Post #: 1501
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/19/2016 11:57:00 PM   
Hongjian

 

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A mystery missile launched from what appears to be a standard YJ-83/C-80X type container.

Noone has ever seen something like that in China's arsenal before. And noone knows what sort of missile it might be.

It has an air-intake and folding wings, which implies that it is a cruise missile - not an ASROC, as some people initially thought.
But why does it have a thinner upper stage? Maybe a rocket powered supersonic terminal stage like the YJ-18/Klub (although the Klub is a much larger and longer missile)?






(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 1502
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/20/2016 1:29:16 AM   
Gneckes

 

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Could it be some sort of long-range anti-submarine weapon?

(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 1503
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/20/2016 3:38:11 AM   
Hongjian

 

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Some speculations in the Chinese internet point to the prospect of this being the replacement for all the YJ-83. This missile is basically suppossed to be a more compact variant of the YJ-18 that can fit inside a marginally larger YJ-83 container and thus can be equipped on the majority of the PLAN's earlier surface combattants that used the YJ-8X series of AShM. Range is suppossed to be 400km, same as the YJ-18, but the warhead might have been reduced to 200kg to make it more compact.

http://mil.sohu.com/20161120/n473645087.shtml

In any case, something like this is more or less expected, since all those Type 054A, 053s, 052A/Bs 051/B/Cs, and especially those over hundred 056 corvettes and 022 FACs would have to serve on with those YJ-83s that are getting increasingly obsolete, if there wasnt a replacement missile of the same general size.

Also, if this rumor is true, it looks like the YJ-18 doesnt actually look like the 3M-54E Klub as it was widely rumored to be copied from.


< Message edited by Hongjian -- 11/20/2016 3:40:48 AM >

(in reply to Gneckes)
Post #: 1504
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/20/2016 3:57:32 PM   
Hongjian

 

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Holy crap!

This... This could be the super long range air-launched quasi-ballistic anti-AWACS missile that has been discussed for years. Carrying aircraft is a J-16.

This missile looks about 5 meters long!






Some backstory;

Some days ago a "big shrimp" (a reliable leaker) has posted a cryptic Poem on a major chinese military enthusiast forum:

长剑气如虹,赳赳万古雄。
今朝初饮血,敌首落长空。
鸡塞人声沸,将军笑意浓。
神兵今已利,试问谁争锋?

http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2320103-1-1.html

It is not unusual for new developments to be leaked in the form of cryptic poems written in classical chinese. Examples are many, like the appearance of the J-20, J-31, ASAT tests etc.

Loosely translated, this poem says that a "long sword" has "tasted blood" for the first time and has "gallantly cut down the head of an enemy, which fell from the skies", which invited the "cheer of the crowd and smile of the generals".

It is speculated that with "long sword 长剑" means a long-range missile (after all, the 2000+km ranged CJ-10 LACM, now redesignated as DF-10, literally means "long sword 10" for its range), and since it "downed an enemy from the skies" it implies that it is a long range anti-air missile. But since the PL-15 was already long tested years ago, it made no sense that it only achieved its "first blood" now.

So, looking back at other major leaks from past years, there is some indication that it might be actually a seperate long range AAM project.
Research papers below specify a super long range air-to-air missile with quasi ballistic trajectory (it flies to nearspace during mid-course) and is designed to take out AWACS from stand-off range, as the graphics below show.

- Note that this missile is classified as a "reentry vehicle" and flies into space and above the radar to evade detection from the AWACS and F-22s airborne sensors. Paper discusses how the missile must have a range above 300km and a terminal speed between Mach 4-5. The missile locks onto the target upon reentry with its active radar seeker at 21km range.

- Note the black silhouette of the graph on the 3rd page. Compared to the CG model, which featues mid-body fins, the black silhouette looks like the J-16 carried missile above. Also, noting the 2nd graph, the missile looks like is delivered via fighter jet like an ASAT missile.





(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 1505
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/20/2016 6:24:33 PM   
Broncepulido

 

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Incredible news! Thanks Hongjian to keep us updated!

(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 1506
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/20/2016 10:33:04 PM   
Hongjian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Broncepulido

Incredible news! Thanks Hongjian to keep us updated!


Thanks.

Some good bloggers like Huitong claim that this might be the PL-15 - But I'm totally against that notion. The PL-15 is a PL-12 successor and has similiar dimensions so that it fits inside a J-20 and J-31 main bay.

But this monster of an AAM definitely does not!

It is, depending on measurement, 5.5 to 6 meters long with a 350-400mm diameter. It can only be carried externally by any Chinese fighters.

Me thinks that its job would be the "long range fire support" embarked on non-stealthy aircraft that are following a J-20 vanguard. J-20 will continue to use PL-12/PL-15 missiles, while J-11 variants and J-16 would use the AABM to snipe support aircraft from afar.

Size comparisson, using the wheels of the Flanker:





I think the closest analogue might be the Russian KS-172 Novator.


< Message edited by Hongjian -- 11/21/2016 2:50:34 AM >

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Post #: 1507
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/20/2016 10:45:07 PM   
Gneckes

 

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Looks like it, yeah, minus the mid-frame wings.

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Post #: 1508
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/20/2016 10:48:27 PM   
Hongjian

 

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EDIT:

On the other hand the size is different.

So no.

< Message edited by Hongjian -- 11/20/2016 10:54:14 PM >

(in reply to Gneckes)
Post #: 1509
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/21/2016 11:34:55 AM   
Hongjian

 

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Full research paper for this new PL-XX "AABM" was found. Reposting Blitzo from China-Defense-forum:

http://xueshu.baidu.com/s?wd=paperuri%3A%28b1c3186d596f467150508c2616c618d3%29&filter=sc_long_sign&tn=SE_xueshusource_2kduw22v&sc_vurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.doc88.com%2Fp-9475497447238.html&ie=utf-8&sc_us=1589279708490559253

Looks like the early study specified mid-body wings for this missile somehow. And yes, it was compared to the KS-172.

quote:

here's the full article in pdf if anyone wants to access it (attached)

took me a while to be able to find a place that can download it, then realized my university had cnki among its databases lol


in the article, there are a few very interesting tidbits that seem to correspond with the new missile

-composite seeker of active radar and ImIR for terminal phase (I think this probably confirms that the aperture on the nose is for ImIR seeker), partly for counter stealth role(?)
-GPS/INS guidance with datalinks for midcourse phase
-mentions something called "direct force control" (直接力控制), also called "射流侧向力," which I assume to be something like reaction thrusters? Provide lateral thrust? Sounds kind of like "pif" lateral thrusters used in Aster
-emphasis of importance of joint networking/informationized warfare for this thing to work
-emphasis on use of this missile against high value targets, mentioning AEW&C mostly (including ImIR seeker to identify between high and low value targets)
-emphasis on ECCM

It doesn't explicitly talk about targeting stealth fighters, stealth bombers or carriers that I can see, but it emphasizes the need to attack high value targets. It also talks about how targets of the future will likely be high speed, and stealthy, and thus places greater requirements for missiles, and seems to imply this missile should be capable against them as well(?). It does also directly say that the missile should have high mobility/maneuvrability, as well as very fast flight controls, and of course guidance. And one of the methods for achieving that high mobility is via the aforementioned "direct force control" or what I assume to be reaction thrusters/attitude thrusters.

Using some common sense, I imagine this missile would be useful against targets that are either relatively slow moving like AEW&C or stealth bombers, and possibly fighter aircraft that are not making very extreme maneuvring, as well as of course carriers.



(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 1510
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/21/2016 2:45:04 PM   
Dysta


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Photo from last year. Chinese Y-8 being used as a mine dropper.


_____________________________


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Post #: 1511
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/21/2016 3:14:47 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Full research paper for this new PL-XX "AABM" was found. Reposting Blitzo from China-Defense-forum:

http://xueshu.baidu.com/s?wd=paperuri%3A%28b1c3186d596f467150508c2616c618d3%29&filter=sc_long_sign&tn=SE_xueshusource_2kduw22v&sc_vurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.doc88.com%2Fp-9475497447238.html&ie=utf-8&sc_us=1589279708490559253

Looks like the early study specified mid-body wings for this missile somehow. And yes, it was compared to the KS-172.

quote:

here's the full article in pdf if anyone wants to access it (attached)

took me a while to be able to find a place that can download it, then realized my university had cnki among its databases lol


in the article, there are a few very interesting tidbits that seem to correspond with the new missile

-composite seeker of active radar and ImIR for terminal phase (I think this probably confirms that the aperture on the nose is for ImIR seeker), partly for counter stealth role(?)
-GPS/INS guidance with datalinks for midcourse phase
-mentions something called "direct force control" (直接力控制), also called "射流侧向力," which I assume to be something like reaction thrusters? Provide lateral thrust? Sounds kind of like "pif" lateral thrusters used in Aster
-emphasis of importance of joint networking/informationized warfare for this thing to work
-emphasis on use of this missile against high value targets, mentioning AEW&C mostly (including ImIR seeker to identify between high and low value targets)
-emphasis on ECCM

It doesn't explicitly talk about targeting stealth fighters, stealth bombers or carriers that I can see, but it emphasizes the need to attack high value targets. It also talks about how targets of the future will likely be high speed, and stealthy, and thus places greater requirements for missiles, and seems to imply this missile should be capable against them as well(?). It does also directly say that the missile should have high mobility/maneuvrability, as well as very fast flight controls, and of course guidance. And one of the methods for achieving that high mobility is via the aforementioned "direct force control" or what I assume to be reaction thrusters/attitude thrusters.

Using some common sense, I imagine this missile would be useful against targets that are either relatively slow moving like AEW&C or stealth bombers, and possibly fighter aircraft that are not making very extreme maneuvring, as well as of course carriers.





Ha! Its a magic missile. Any first level wizard can cast that! It says right here in the player's handbook

Lets be patient and see what data actually appears. This is very speculative.

Mike

_____________________________


(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 1512
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/21/2016 4:27:07 PM   
stilesw


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quote:

Ha! Its a magic missile. Any first level wizard can cast that! It says right here in the player's handbook

Right on!

Magic Missile:
Evocation
Level: 1
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals 1d4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.
-WS




Attachment (1)

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 1513
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/21/2016 5:17:56 PM   
Gneckes

 

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A range of 120 feet seems ridiculously low, but then again, the instant travel time and perfect accuracy would make for an excellent CIWS.

(in reply to stilesw)
Post #: 1514
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/22/2016 4:07:49 AM   
kevinkins


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Darn .. my scenario (Disproportional Response) is now obsolete ... may be not ...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-s-400-iskander-ballistic-missile-systems-kaliningrad-countermeasures-nato/


(in reply to Gneckes)
Post #: 1515
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/22/2016 6:08:57 AM   
jun5896

 

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Lockheed Retakes Korean F-16 Upgrade Contract

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/lockheed-retakes-korean-f-16-upgrade-contract

(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 1516
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/22/2016 12:32:22 PM   
jtoatoktoe

 

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U.S.S. Zumwalt dead in the water in Panama Canal

Serious engineering casualty with sea water intrusion in both of Zumwalt’s Advanced Induction Motors and minor hit on the canal wall. Taken under tow and they will try to repair it in Panama. Unknown how long that will take.

https://news.usni.org/2016/11/22/uss-zumwalt-sidelined-panama

(in reply to jun5896)
Post #: 1517
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/22/2016 4:01:43 PM   
Hongjian

 

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http://www.eastpendulum.com/la-chine-developpe-un-missile-air-air-tres-longue-portee

Henri.K. about the new "magical missile" :^)
Estimated Dimensions:


He digs even deeper inside Chinese academic papers and describes a KS-172 or JDRADM (Joint Dual Role Air Dominance Missile) equivalent, powered by a dual-pulse motor, following a parabolic, quasi-ballistic trajectory of 25-30km altitude to reach up to 320km range.




(in reply to jtoatoktoe)
Post #: 1518
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/22/2016 8:06:05 PM   
Triode

 

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well , not so "magic" but still missile, testing on some interesting platform

Ka-52K with Kh-35 mockup


(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 1519
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/22/2016 10:42:21 PM   
Gneckes

 

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That is one huge missile to be carried on a helicopter.

Or to put it differently: is that a missile fired by a helicopter, or a rocket-powered helicopter?

(in reply to Triode)
Post #: 1520
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/22/2016 10:44:10 PM   
Gneckes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hongjian

Using some common sense, I imagine this missile would be useful against targets that are either relatively slow moving like AEW&C or stealth bombers, and possibly fighter aircraft that are not making very extreme maneuvring, as well as of course carriers.





Against carriers? I doubt a missile like this would be able to cause any sort of significant damage to a Carrier.

(in reply to Hongjian)
Post #: 1521
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/23/2016 12:28:20 AM   
Dysta


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https://uk.news.yahoo.com/canada-order-18-boeing-super-184746895.html

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Post #: 1522
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/23/2016 8:02:20 AM   
xavierv


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Thales to upgrade RAN Collins submarines with latest generation sonar systems from UK & France
quote:

Thales has signed a design and pre-production contract to upgrade Australia’s Collins class submarine sonar systems, enhancing their capability to outperform the most advanced underwater threats in an increasingly complex environment. As Australia’s leading provider of sonar technologies, Thales will build on its local and international expertise to prepare for upgrades to the submarines’ cylindrical array, flank array, and on-board processing to maintain Royal Australian Navy superiority in the region.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2016/november-2016-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4599-thales-to-upgrade-ran-collins-submarines-with-latest-generation-sonar-systems-from-uk-france.html

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Post #: 1523
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/23/2016 12:46:19 PM   
Gneckes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jtoatoktoe

U.S.S. Zumwalt dead in the water in Panama Canal

Serious engineering casualty with sea water intrusion in both of Zumwalt’s Advanced Induction Motors and minor hit on the canal wall. Taken under tow and they will try to repair it in Panama. Unknown how long that will take.

https://news.usni.org/2016/11/22/uss-zumwalt-sidelined-panama


Repairs are expected to take "up to ten days".

(in reply to jtoatoktoe)
Post #: 1524
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/23/2016 11:49:23 PM   
mikeCK

 

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http://www.defenseone.com/technology/2016/11/f-35b-just-got-lot-deadlier/133379/

"The F-35 now packs more punch: specifically, the 20-foot Standard Missile, or SM-6, complete with a 140-pound warhead. But not fired from under the wing — rather from a nearby Aegis destroyer.

In September, the Marines completed a proof-of-concept test in which a Marine Corps F-35B detected a cruise-missile decoy (a drone), passed targeting information to a remote sensor, and set up a shot by an Aegis combat system of the sort you’ll find on modern destroyers. A battery controlled by the Aegis fired a live SM-6 missile, which took down the drone."

(in reply to Gneckes)
Post #: 1525
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/24/2016 7:54:47 AM   
Dysta


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An outsourced shipping freighter from Taiwan has unloaded 9 (formerly reported 12) Singaporean AV-81 Terrex APCs at Hong Kong port without permission from Custom. Still investigating:

http://m.mingpao.com/ins/instantnews/web_tc/article/20161124/s00001/1479963036278 (Traditional Chinese)
http://mothership.sg/2016/11/9-apcs-allegedly-being-shipped-from-kaoshiung-to-spore-held-at-hong-kong-hk-media/ (English)



EDIT: HK Custom has impounded and masked all the APCs at the dock, while investigating the freighter captain and crews. Those APCs are known for training Taiwanese "Starlight" troops during the military drill, and return to Singapore afterward.

< Message edited by Dysta -- 11/24/2016 8:37:33 AM >


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Post #: 1526
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/24/2016 3:40:56 PM   
kevinkins


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More on the developments we read about this week from China and Russia:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/735869/China-missile-hypersonic-Russia-Putin-Nato-targets-300-miles-away

(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 1527
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/24/2016 8:24:31 PM   
Hongjian

 

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Well, 300 miles is kinda overstated, but more than 300km (320km to be exact) was at least mentioned in the research papers.

Most comprehensive reports so far (aside of Henri.K's good writeup):

http://www.popsci.com/china-new-long-range-air-to-air-missile
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/6108/shadowy-new-missile-appears-under-the-wing-of-chinese-j-16-fighter

What is true, though, is that this missile really fits inside the A2AD strategy. And a Chinese counter to the Third Offset, as Dr. Singer and Jeffrey Lin state:

quote:

Another researched VLRAAM function is datalinking; the papers called for the VLRAAM to be embedded within a highly integrated combat networks. It is envisioned as just part of a larger wave of networked solutions aggregated through multiple Chinese systems. For example, a J-20 stealth fighter wouldn't mount the missile (the VLRAAM is too large to fit in the J-20's weapons bay), but could use its low observable features to fly relatively close in order to detect enemy assets like AEW&C aircraft (which are vital to gather battlespace data for manned and unmanned assets, but subsonic in speed and less able to evade missiles). Then before breaking off contact, the J-20 would signal a J-16 400 km (249 miles) away (outside the range of most air to air missiles) providing it the data needed to launch the VLRAAM at the target. This would offer China a longer range version of present U.S. tactics that involve using the fifth generation F-22 as a sensor for 4th generation fighters as the "shooters."

In operation, the VLRAAM will provide J-20 stealth fighters with long range "aerial artillery" to even the odds against numerically superior air forces, while giving new life to J-11 and J-16 fighters. It can also give J-15 carrier fighters a long range interception capability to defend Chinese naval forces.

The gains in range and speed of the VLRAAM pose another significant risk to the concepts of the U.S. military's "Third Offset." U.S. operations are highly dependent on assets like aerial tankers, dedicated electronic warfare aircraft, and AEW&C. For example, without aerial tankers, the relatively short range of the F-35s would become even more of a liability in long range operations in the South China Seas and Taiwan Straits. Similarly, without AEW&C aircraft, F-22s would have to use onboard radars more, raising their risk of detection. Even for stealthy tanker platforms like the planned MQ-25 Stingray drone and proposed KC-Z tanker will be vulnerable to VLRAAMs if detected by emerging dedicated anti-stealth systems such as the Divine Eagle drone and Yuanmeng airship.
By pushing the Chinese air defense threat bubble hundreds of miles out further, they also offer to turn the long range tables on the putative U.S. "Arsenal" Plane concept, a Pentagon plan to launch missiles from non-stealthy planes from afar. In sum, VLRAAM is not just a big missile, but a potential big deal for the future of air warfare.


Basically, it can be compared with the F-35+SM-6 combo, just that the "SM-6" here is air-launched.

< Message edited by Hongjian -- 11/24/2016 8:26:27 PM >

(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 1528
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/28/2016 10:24:28 AM   
Dysta


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Update from #1526

It's clear that China does inspected the freighter at Xiamen before it reach to Hong Kong, and Chinese customs found those APCs. They selectively let this freighter go, and then make it ported to Hong Kong by demand from HK customs, which was informed by Chinese authority in time.

Nobody know who's the true cause from the whole event, but it's surely not pretty for Singapore.

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/2049429/mainland-agents-tipped-hong-kong-about-singapores-tanks
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-crime/article/2048964/hong-kong-customs-seize-shipment-nine-armoured-military

EDIT: Deleted political comments.

< Message edited by Dysta -- 11/28/2016 12:39:04 PM >


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Post #: 1529
RE: Naval and Defense News - 11/28/2016 12:41:33 PM   
Hongjian

 

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Some rumors say that China seized those APCs because they wanted to reverse engineer the RWS system.

This notion is kinda idiotic, though. Didnt they see Zhuhai Airshow and all those RWS presented there?

(in reply to Dysta)
Post #: 1530
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