Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Sea control near CONUS does not depend on carriers.

He has Seattle, Oak Harbor, Vancouver, Victoria, Tacoma . . . to rearm.

Bombardments do not depend on BBs.

Coal Harbor is a short trip under LBA LRCAP and ten DDs can make a mess of airfield.

Bombing takes supply. Replacing planes takes supply. Building AFs takes supply.

Jocke has bombers that can easily reach Coal Harbor, at night. He's going to have a lot more. His objective should be supply denial.

quote:


Sea control near CONUS does not depend on carriers.

quote:


all under threat of bombs

quote:


Bombardments do not depend on BBs.

Coal Harbor is a short trip under LBA LRCAP and ten DDs can make a mess of airfield.

quote:


Bombing takes supply. Replacing planes takes supply. Building AFs takes supply.

quote:


Jocke has bombers that can easily reach Coal Harbor, at night. He's going to have a lot more. His objective should be supply denial.

quote:


All I know as a AFB ... There are JFB's that spend a great deal of time figuring out how to extract every last potential supply point for the least amount of fuel to get to the right places. In the games where the IJ have over expanded there have not been enough supplies at the end game and the game stops. Of course it's the game that is messed up ....

I posted this in the original IJ AAR .. and it was surprising that JFB's explained to me that over expanding does not take extra supply & fuel that would be handy later ... it must be a very subtle problem ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

quote:


Sea control near CONUS does not depend on carriers.

We will have to agree to disagree here...

quote:


all under threat of bombs

He has Seattle, Oak Harbor, Vancouver, Victoria, Tacoma . . . to rearm.

quote:


Bombardments do not depend on BBs.

Coal Harbor is a short trip under LBA LRCAP and ten DDs can make a mess of airfield.

I love me some DDs more than anybody, and 10 DDs may make a mess of an airfield... for a day. Not 2. And not 2 airfields, or 3. Sure if Lowpe content with just Coal Harbor, DDs, night bombers, etc can shut it down and keep it shut down.

Jocke has more than 10 DDs. He's going to get a lot more in the summer. To CH from any of the bases I named is a 1-day cycle. He doesn't need to destroy planes to win. Damage works. Every day they don't fly a day passes. Time is on his side.

And maybe it is just me, but I'm not much fan of bombardments.

It's just you.

Sure they look cool, and they damage a lot of planes. But they rarely destroy many, and are subject to many countermeasures.

Japan needs ships to fight them, or anti-naval aircraft which have to be armed, supplied, fixed, and replaced.

An island defense, and this is what Lowpe has bought himself, is a rock-paper-scissors problem. Land-sea-air. You need all three if your opponent is using all three. Too many AE players are absolutely in love with airplanes. But it's a naval game. Bombardments are devastating if not countered. They come at night. Planes suck at night. You need ships to counter bombardments, and big ones and a lot of them in many cases. Ships need fuel and repair; they are very expensive beasts on the front line in enemy territory where Lowpe is here. If Jocke bombards he presents Lowpe with a series of very uncomfortable decisions. A DD lost is 8-10 VPs. But many won't be lost as Seattle and vicinity is the biggest shipyard complex on the WC. A plane destroyed has to be bought back, it's HI and fuel and supply to make of course, but it has to be bought to the front. Resupply with airframes can only come once every seven days as well. If you're proposing flying planes from the HI through a series of island jumps you can resupply at will, at the cost of ops losses, damage, and tired pilots.

But naval bombardments are cheap to Jocke, and expensive for Japan to counter. Jocke is at home in resource wonderland. Japan is at the end of a rope.

If Lowpe develops more Level 3-4 AFs than Coal Harbor he can complicate Jocke's calculus, but he uses time, he uses supply, he needs engineers, and he hands Jocke finished bases when he loses them. And he will lose them.

A great tool in the box, but one that is vastly overused (and over relied upon) by most JFBs. And the same tactics for hurting JFB bombardments can be used against allied bombardments. Sure the allies get more ships, but not THAT many more in 1942.

Take a look. Take a look where they appear on map.

quote:


Bombing takes supply. Replacing planes takes supply. Building AFs takes supply.

repairing airfields does not, repairing A/C I don't belive does (but I may be wrong on that).

True, but you're hand-waving multiple new operating AFs for Japan. I'm saying they're expensive.

Bombing sure takes some supply... max load / 1000. Max load on Nells and Bettys is less than 2000 lbs. So that is 1 or 2 supply / sortie (the game usually rounds down, but I didn't see it explicitly stated here).

A bit more supply than that.

"Planes other than level bombers flying an Offensive Mission and planes flying an Escort
Mission expend one supply point per plane per Mission. Level bombers flying an offensive
Mission expend supplies equal to their Maximum Load divided by 1000 per Mission. All planes
flying other Mission types (search, CAP) expend 1/3 of a supply point per plane per Mission.
These supply points must be available for expenditure or the planes will not fly.
All aircraft groups require that their base contain supplies at least equal to the supply needs
for the base, or the group will not fly more than 75% of the ready aircraft in the group on an
Offensive or Escort Mission.
Level bomber squadrons require that their base contain supplies at least double the supply
needs for the base, or the level bomber group will not fly more than 75% of the ready aircraft
in the group on an Offensive Mission.
All groups attempting to fly any other Mission type (Naval Search, CAP, etc.) require that their
base contain supplies at least one half (50%) the supply needs for the base or the group will
not fly more than 75% of the ready aircraft in the group."

CAP ain't free. Escorts ain't free.

Replacements take supply (I can't seem to find how much), but it doesn't have to be expended at the forward base. He can rotate the unit back, or have an Air HQ back to push replacements forward. And remember, Coal Harbor is closer to the HI than Noumea or Oz - and Lowpe has (or can have) a chain of bases all the way back.

"Air units will automatically gain replacements under certain circumstances if aircraft are
available in the replacement pool and the air unit has been set to Accept Replacements. To get
replacement aircraft to flow automatically into an air unit, there must be planes in the pool and
one of the following cases must be true (the first true will take effect):
»» The air unit is located at a base with an airfield size of 1+ (or 0 if a
float-equipped group and the base is in a coastal hex) and the base
has over 20,000 supplies. Supplies will be expended at the base
and the unit will receive damaged planes from the pool (they may
repair before the next orders phase during the repair phase).
»» The air unit is located at a base and the HQ that the group is
assigned to is within transfer range of the air unit’s aircraft type,
and the HQ is located at a base with an airfield size of 1+ and has
over 20,000 supplies. Supplies will be expended at the HQ base
and the unit will receive damaged planes from the pool.
»» The air unit is located at a base and the Command level HQ that
the group is assigned to is within transfer range of the air unit’s
aircraft type, and the Command HQ is located at a base with
over 20,000 supplies. Supplies will be expended at the HQ base
and the unit will receive damaged planes from the pool."

There's quite a bit more than that, but you can read it. Note too that replacements are only every seven days, no more than 12 aircraft can be replaced every seven days, and checks are only made every 2 out of 3 days.

quote:


Jocke has bombers that can easily reach Coal Harbor, at night. He's going to have a lot more. His objective should be supply denial.

Agreed. I think that is Jockes way out. Supply denial. That and dislocate the KB to another part of the world. Once the KB is gone (goes someplace else, or better yet gets sunk), the supply lanes are open to all those USN raiders. Night and DD bombardments will only buy time, they won't win.

Buying time IS winning for Jocke.

Jocke can take advantage here. He seems to be dismissing the threat and saying I'm going to go take Munda (slight exageration). If Lowpe is smart, he will just ignore the Solomons, fortify Rabaul and just watch you go nuts. The war will be decided in NA and I think Jocke will need to plan for how he will win there before he starts some overseas ventures.

We agree to disagree on this. Knowing where the KB is located in this era is priceless.

You seem to be saying "noting to see here, just a rear guard action". I think it should be the focus of everything Jocke does until he pushes the imperial %^%%$# out of escorted bombing range of Washington. Then punch him at Rabaul, and Rangoon (and Pearl if you can account for his CVs).


I don't think Lowpe is going to complain that the game screwed him over if Jocke gets past this. (I sure hope not). I said it before, Lowpe has mortgaged '45 to win in '43.

quote:

And maybe it is just me, but I'm not much fan of bombardments.

It's just you.

quote:


An island defense, and this is what Lowpe has bought himself, is a rock-paper-scissors problem.

quote:


If Lowpe develops more Level 3-4 AFs than Coal Harbor he can complicate Jocke's calculus, but he uses time, he uses supply, he needs engineers, and he hands Jocke finished bases when he loses them. And he will lose them.

quote:


Take a look. Take a look where they appear on map.

quote:


True, but you're hand-waving multiple new operating AFs for Japan. I'm saying they're expensive.

quote:


A bit more supply than that.
...
"Level bombers flying an offensive Mission expend supplies equal to their Maximum Load divided by 1000 per Mission."

quote:


There's quite a bit more than that, but you can read it. Note too that replacements are only every seven days, no more than 12 aircraft can be replaced every seven days, and checks are only made every 2 out of 3 days.

quote:


Buying time IS winning for Jocke.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Odd thought. Any bases in the Yukon which can be built up and allow B17/24 to hit at Juneau, Kodiak etc and make him cover his rear??

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

PS, as well as Surface bombardment, any japanese held Canadian bases can be hit by mining, night bombing, Surface TF interdicting LOC, subs etc etc etc.

They dont have to be large or even very effective BUT Lowpe will have to react to them. It might make him keep KB in the area.

Odd thought. Any bases in the Yukon which can be built up and allow B17/24 to hit at Juneau, Kodiak etc and make him cover his rear??

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

PS, as well as Surface bombardment, any japanese held Canadian bases can be hit by mining, night bombing, Surface TF interdicting LOC, subs etc etc etc.

They dont have to be large or even very effective BUT Lowpe will have to react to them. It might make him keep KB in the area.

Odd thought. Any bases in the Yukon which can be built up and allow B17/24 to hit at Juneau, Kodiak etc and make him cover his rear??

Not sure Juneau gives either side anything other than points. Kodiak though, I would think would be a large Japanese logistics hub... Maybe Anchorage.

Agree with Bullwinkle about Prince Rupert - though it is still 19 hexes from Kodiak. Extend range for B24s, but a viable option.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've been through this as the Allied player in a game versus Panzerjaeger Hortlund abuot three years ago.

Auto victory is not on the table here. Even if Japan has 4:1 or 5:1 ratio come September it's not on the table. (Assuming that the Allied player is competent; I don't know Joc at all, but I think he's been playing long enough to be experienced and probably therefore competent). By late summer '42, the Allies begin to gain lots of points through so many methods (base building, sub attrition vs. ships, air war, etc.) that Japan's ratio will decline dramatically.

Bullwinkle has been dead on in everything he's said.

I think under certain circumstances North America does offer a viable path to a Japanese auto victory. But alot of things have to fall right and the Japanese player has to be very good. He also has to have a very good plan that's implemented from almost the start of the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Also, if he doesnt make AV, I would begin a slow evac from any Canadian bases and fall back to the Aleutians and any Alaskan bases that fit a defensive line.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
By late summer '42, the Allies begin to gain lots of points through so many methods (base building, sub attrition vs. ships, air war, etc.) that Japan's ratio will decline dramatically.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Check out the Tech Support forum. Since both of us are using off map movement, you may want to use the beta patch that MichaelM just put out. Items 4 and 5 are from my game vs John 3rd. #5 affects us more since we are using off map more than most players.

quote:

Ground combat at Wenchow (89,58)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 32187 troops, 295 guns, 127 vehicles, Assault Value = 1026

Defending force 25330 troops, 81 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 667

Japanese adjusted assault: 422

Allied adjusted defense: 622

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 1)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2221 casualties reported
Squads: 11 destroyed, 291 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 16 disabled
Guns lost 13 (1 destroyed, 12 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
514 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 51 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Assaulting units:
17th Division
15th Division
8th Armored Car Co
12th RGC Ind. Brigade
12th RGC Temp. Division
13th Army
4th Mortar Battalion

Defending units:
100th Chinese Corps
88th Chinese Corps
16th Construction Regiment
10th Group Army
25th Group Army
3rd War Area
14th Chinese Base Force

quote:

Ground combat at 83,45 (near Nanyang)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 39861 troops, 439 guns, 241 vehicles, Assault Value = 1303

Defending force 36984 troops, 170 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 738

Japanese adjusted assault: 578

Allied adjusted defense: 1195

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1653 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 189 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 18 disabled

Allied ground losses:
1977 casualties reported
Squads: 8 destroyed, 176 disabled
Non Combat: 9 destroyed, 14 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled

Assaulting units:
34th Division
70th Division
6th Division
13th Tank Regiment
12th Tank Regiment
15th Tank Regiment
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
1st Army
1st Mortar Battalion
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
90th Chinese Corps
57th Chinese Corps
7th Chinese Corps
66th Chinese Corps
22nd Group Army

quote:

Ground combat at 84,34 (near Ningsia)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 29441 troops, 231 guns, 61 vehicles, Assault Value = 935

Defending force 13785 troops, 93 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 377

Japanese adjusted assault: 533

Allied adjusted defense: 375

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1109 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 57 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled

Allied ground losses:
881 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 93 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 24 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 13 (3 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Units destroyed 1 <-- a two AV Chinese Corps that now will respawn.

Assaulting units:
1st Ind.Mixed Brigade
1st Cavalry Brigade
6th Mongol Cavalry Division
2nd Ind.Mixed Brigade
11th Indpt Infantry Regiment
13th Indpt Infantry Regiment
12th Indpt Infantry Regiment
26th Engineer Regiment
21st AA Regiment
Mongol Garrison Army
11th Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
38th Chinese Corps
12th Chinese Corps
81st Chinese Corps
8th War Area
17th Group Army[/size]

Attachment (1)

(in reply to JocMeister)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Ooof! That's some stiff Kate losses. And it looks like your precious P-38s are intact.

I seem to remember the P-39 stats were upped in Symon's data changes, along with the P-38. The P-39 is a good little knife fighter at low altitudes now.

quote:

Morning Air attack on Spokane , at 215,48

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 113 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 30
G3M2 Nell x 25
G4M1 Betty x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 4 damaged

quote:

17/38th Division is loaded on xAK Toba Maru moving to Chittagong.
2/4th Ind.Mixed Regiment is loaded on xAK Kyosei Maru moving to Chittagong.

10/38th Division is planning for an attack on Darwin.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Even in stock the P-39 is very solid. Cannons!

It looks like he actualy lost 64 all told, not 67+.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I would send 2 Marine CD units from USA to India. They are great at limiting damage to your troops as you advance down the coastal roads in Burma. Per Symon, they are the best artillery you get as Allies for long time in ground attacks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanj
Any idea what he was targeting at Spokane?